There are two companies that have been huge disappointments in the EV space: Nissan and BMW. Nissan (from which we purchased the OG Leaf we still have), because they just sat on their laurels with a car that quickly got overtaken by other brands. BMW, because like Nissan they squandered their lead. And because squandering their lead wasn't enough, the CEO from a while back basically came out and said they didn't think EVs were the future (or something like that).
And so now I'm supposed to believe BMW is all-in on EVs? Meh, as much as we like our BMW motorcycles, I think we're just going to pass on BMW for now, as much as we might lust after the EV M version. Convince us you're committed, BMW, and we can talk again in a few years.
Over-priced? For what it was, yes, but some of that was the BMW badge. And the interior was nicer than the competition, too. But the lead I'm referring to is being one of the first three to mass-produce EVs, and one of those three was an unknown (Tesla). BMW already knew how to build cars, they just needed to learn how to electrify them. Tesla had to go learn how to build cars, which I'll assume was harder than electrifying something you already know how to build. So while Tesla was jamming pieces of 2x4 wood into fender panels, and zip-tying pieces together, Tesla was still becoming BMW faster than BMW was becoming Tesla (to horribly butcher a Netflix CEO's words). Only the last couple of years have seen BMW trickle out something that isn't an i3.
As for Nissan, I'm with you on Chevy's competition. But I was on about how they were the first modern manufacturer of mass-produced BEVs and eleven years later...they still have just the one model that sits on the low-end. And as you point out, that singular model's lunch is probably getting eaten by Chevy Bolts.
The challenge for legacy car makers seems to be less about electrifying the drive train and more about moving to a capable software architecture and UX.
I agree you’re probably right, but it frustrates me because I don’t understand why changing the drivetrain has become linked in peoples heads with lots of software and UI changes in the cabin. They should be totally orthogonal!
That said if BMW had bought out a 5 series that was absolutely identical in the cabin apart from the fuel gauge showing battery and the tachometer showing energy out/regen — would that not have been a super popular product?
Agreed. Tesla needed flashy new tech to attract early adopter buyers, and also to attract talented engineers. Now that EVs are somewhat accepted by mainstream, only now we see the likes of Ford coming out with the comparatively normal EV F150.
The i3 has the best UX I've seen in a car. It has a jog wheel (no touch screen), and lots of useful battery optimization features in the navigation system.
I can navigate to addresses in my phone book (and change route efficiency vs time settings), play podcasts, internet radio and tidal albums using the jog wheel (while the car is moving), and make phone calls without taking my hands off the wheel.
The i3 was an interesting engineering prototype and it was overpriced. But had they developed a better more mainstream package around the car it could have still been a pretty decent seller.
And the follow up versions could have improved, that is what many internally at BMW expected. They wanted the next evolution of all their major cars to go EV.
However management pulled the rug from that and basically said the next full product cycle is gone be mostly ICE with some PHEV and very little pure electric.
So they went from a company who was transitioning to EV rapitly, to a company that focused on a strategy of 'everything' meaning architectures that are ICE, PHEV, HEV, even hydrogen and electric.
BMW was very early in on R&D for practical electric cars compared to most legacy automakers. Maybe the first large-ish scale thing was the 1 Series ActiveE (some family friends were in the Electronaut program), but they’ve been exploring it for decades.
The i3’s price (and especially looks) we’re problems, but they absolutely could have had a strong contender years ahead of other legacy auto makers.
Two weeks ago I rented a BMW X5 that was a plug-in hybrid. I was blown away by the driving feel. But maybe that's to be expected for a BMW vehicle. But I also think it's a really good vehicle from the environmental point of view. It has a battery-only range of 31 miles. The typical daily commute in the US is about 40 miles, if you do that, you'd burn gas for less than 10 miles per day. If you are lucky and can charge at work, then if you commute less than 60 miles per day on electricity only. In other words, you could drive in electric mode 90% of your miles, if not more, and never have any range anxiety.
Came here to say this. Not only are Toyota dragging their heels on EV development, but they also - famously - spend huge sums of money to thwart stricter emissions legislation in California (which has historically had an outsize influence on Federal standards), Japan and elsewhere.[1] This shameful conduct gets a big fat zero, nada, zilch coverage in Toyota’s home country.
I wish more people would call them out on their hypocritical bullshit but they continue to successfully coast on their friendly “cool Japan” _kaizen_ reputation while quietly dragging us out the back to slit our throats.
Late reply to say that when it comes to Toyota and EVs, it goes beyond disappointment: I don’t think about Toyota at all. Until you invoked their name, I had forgotten that they’re even working on an EV.
Such a misleading title. "30% or more range than our current Gen5" would be a better title. They don't have any cars with 475 mile range (ie 1.3x = ~620).
With how efficient battery electric vehicles are, when the batteries reach higher energy densities, we will see insane ranges.
If a Tesla's battery had the same energy density as gasoline, it would have a range of roughly 30,000 miles. Then again, the Tesla battery weighs as much as 200 gallons of gasoline.
This leaves so much room for gains in the BEV market as battery technology improves. One day they will look at current model Teslas the same way we look at Nissan Leafs from the 2010s with a 30-40 mile range.
A fairer comparison would be to create a series hybrid with gasoline and minimum battery size. then the energy output of total gasoline + engine efficiency (~30%) vs battery + EV motor efficiency. the reason I insist this is because there is a thermodynamic efficiency maximum for engines so physics caps getting energy out of gas engines.
Yeah, most batteries have to carry their own oxidizer, so I guess this would be a more fair comparison. I guess that's an advantage of an air breathing engine/motor. However there are air breathing batteries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery
BMW made the disastrous internal choice to not do BEV architecture but do architectures that can support anything ICE, PHEV, BEV and hydrogen. This has backfired on them and they lost the leadership position they once had.
These hydrogen cars are mostly fantasy, good for marketing and have essentially no adoption at all.
BMW i3 (late 2013-2022) and its direct successor iX are both clean sheet designed BEVs.
Toyota has had a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle lease program in southern california for at least 5 years, but, to your point, adoption is constrained because hydrogen fueling infrastructure was purpose built to test the idea, and so is not at all widely available.
Yes, they did the i3 and some stuff and they were early in on a lot of that stuff, but then for their next major product cycle they didn't go to BEV. You can still find articles about where BMW proudly talked about their multi technology architecture and how all-electric architectures were a bad idea.
This lead to a number of BMW people who worked on those electric programs to leave.
> and so is not at all widely available
It wont be widely available in the future because its just to expensive to build compared to charging. Tesla model would not have worked if they had to build hydrogen stations.
BMW is such a disappointment. Not just overpriced but also low quality. They turboed engines to a point where turbines are now consumables given how often they break, not to mention flakey electronics. Hopefully the ev revolution will make bmw, merc and vw a thing of the past.
What really pisses me off is that my N53 has a bad injector and BMW have over 30,000 on back order and there's been no word on when they'll be manufacturing new ones. Cold starts are a joy at the moment /s
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[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 87.4 ms ] threadSource: https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscription...
And so now I'm supposed to believe BMW is all-in on EVs? Meh, as much as we like our BMW motorcycles, I think we're just going to pass on BMW for now, as much as we might lust after the EV M version. Convince us you're committed, BMW, and we can talk again in a few years.
Agree on Nissan though. The leaf used to be the only cheapish EV available in the USA but Chevys newer products and prices look far more competitive
As for Nissan, I'm with you on Chevy's competition. But I was on about how they were the first modern manufacturer of mass-produced BEVs and eleven years later...they still have just the one model that sits on the low-end. And as you point out, that singular model's lunch is probably getting eaten by Chevy Bolts.
That said if BMW had bought out a 5 series that was absolutely identical in the cabin apart from the fuel gauge showing battery and the tachometer showing energy out/regen — would that not have been a super popular product?
I can navigate to addresses in my phone book (and change route efficiency vs time settings), play podcasts, internet radio and tidal albums using the jog wheel (while the car is moving), and make phone calls without taking my hands off the wheel.
Dealerships make most of their profit on services [0], not car sales, and electric cars need significantly less services than ICE [1][2].
[0] https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer....
[1] https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html#:...
[2] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-02-10/people-want...
And the follow up versions could have improved, that is what many internally at BMW expected. They wanted the next evolution of all their major cars to go EV.
However management pulled the rug from that and basically said the next full product cycle is gone be mostly ICE with some PHEV and very little pure electric.
So they went from a company who was transitioning to EV rapitly, to a company that focused on a strategy of 'everything' meaning architectures that are ICE, PHEV, HEV, even hydrogen and electric.
The i3’s price (and especially looks) we’re problems, but they absolutely could have had a strong contender years ahead of other legacy auto makers.
I wish more people would call them out on their hypocritical bullshit but they continue to successfully coast on their friendly “cool Japan” _kaizen_ reputation while quietly dragging us out the back to slit our throats.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606
If a Tesla's battery had the same energy density as gasoline, it would have a range of roughly 30,000 miles. Then again, the Tesla battery weighs as much as 200 gallons of gasoline.
This leaves so much room for gains in the BEV market as battery technology improves. One day they will look at current model Teslas the same way we look at Nissan Leafs from the 2010s with a 30-40 mile range.
Edit: 2000s -> 2010s Dear god
then the numbers become more realistic.
CATL is the supplier they use though, and they intend to deliver this 2 years before BMW.
All the low carbon and recycling stuff is great, but overall feels super weak and late to the game.
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T040330...
These hydrogen cars are mostly fantasy, good for marketing and have essentially no adoption at all.
Toyota has had a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle lease program in southern california for at least 5 years, but, to your point, adoption is constrained because hydrogen fueling infrastructure was purpose built to test the idea, and so is not at all widely available.
This lead to a number of BMW people who worked on those electric programs to leave.
> and so is not at all widely available
It wont be widely available in the future because its just to expensive to build compared to charging. Tesla model would not have worked if they had to build hydrogen stations.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39983612/2022-bmw-ix-test...
They say the US is mandating 80% of original range after 10 years. Maybe they'll tack a right to repair/upgrade clause in there too.