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I was proposed a remote job in the US. How to calculate the equivalent EU salary

34 points by n0n0n4t0r ↗ HN
Hello,

I was proposed a remote job in the US. So it mean working for a US company while still living in my country (France) which as a LOT of benefits for the workers. I can't figure out how much more I should ask for the additional risks. I would think between 50% and 100% more than I ask locally.

Hum... Another way to calculate, is my position with the market: locally, I ask 70k€ (more or less 70k$) Wich is 20k€/30k€ above the market.

I don't know how much it represents on the US market.

I think maybe 100k€ ?

Thanks !

42 comments

[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 108 ms ] thread
mytailorisrich
I would start by finding the market rate for that position within the US.

You should also research how much you would need to pay yourself in France towards retirement, health insurance, etc.

Considering the difference in salary levels between Framce and the US, the difference in health insurance costs, and how strong is the dollar at the moment, I am sure that the market compensation in the US would be a very good deal for you (€100k is only $100k at the moment and they'll pay you in USD)

n0n0n4t0r
It's a very simple position of senior PHP developer with also a strong experience as a DevOps. I can tell that I'm lucky to love both my job and helping my team grow, so I'm entitled to a little extra ?

How would you find the market rate in the US (sorry it's maybe a dull question, but, even for my own country, I find it difficult to find reliable resources, especially since my salary is totally out the reports I read, but there is still a strong, hidden market.

djmp
As a point of reference I recently moved back to France from the US where my base salary was ~$190k in California and I now have a base salary of ~100k€ (that's excluding stock and bonus). I find that my standards of living have not changed much.

There are a few differences (a bit less cash on hand for instance), but all in all it has worked well.

In particular, the protection offered by the French CDI is very valuable in the economy we are in.

Keep in mind that work contracts in the US as generally "at-will" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment), which means that your contract can be terminated at any moment for any reason.

If I were you I would go for 2x in USD and then negociate from there. One thing to consider though is the legality of it, as well as tax implications: will you have a US contract? Are you legally allowed to work in the US? Regarding taxes you will probably have to declare your income and pay income taxes in both countries, but then receive a "credit d'impôt" for one of the two countries, make sure you get in touch with a tax attorney or a tax expert.

ThePowerOfFuet
Are you in 75?
djmp
No in the south now, how come?
ThePowerOfFuet
Just curious re salary; did you notice a difference when you moved south?
stop50
Generally i would this: salary- taxes and insurance - average rent - transportation(fix costs+variable costs*1.3) Remt and taxes with imsurance are the biggest parts after that transportation will be a big part, because you have to plan to be onsite and for buying groceries. The rest you can spent how you want.
pfortuny
Just revise your tax payments and social security.

In Spain: 33% goes (more or less) to SS and then 25% to income tax. I’d say at least ask for 1.5 times what you get minthly in the bank.

jstx1
Ideally, they have a range for the position, you know the range before you even start the application and you're okay with it, and once you've done the interviews and you have a soft 'yes', you can discuss salaries and ask for a specific amount. Asking for an amount without knowing their range is a bad idea.
Kkoala
It depends a lot on the company. Some might offer you U.S. salary, and some might lowball you "because salaries are lower in Europe". If they offer U.S. salary 100k/year sounds low, but of course it depends on your experience, the company, any other benefits/equity.

Also depends on what your own negotiation position is? Is this a job you absolutely need or want for some reason, or is it something you pass on?

For example you could try to check online if you can find any U.S. salary info for the company, and then add for example 20% to that and ask for that

pipiscrew
check

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/

https://neilkakkar.com/salary-calculator-by-city.html

https://entryadvice.com/countries/

https://symbolhunt.com/

but for me don't go US.

n0n0n4t0r
Thank you for all this material. Could you please elaborate on why I shouldn't go US?

(I'm very suspicious and cautious, so I'm more or less on the verge to decline, but I'd like to have you opinion)

mensetmanusman
‘Don’t go US’ is as vague as ‘Don’t go EU’.

Both entities are broad and diverse with a huge range of life experience.

ThePowerOfFuet
One huge difference is the healthcare. Others are guns/crime and public transport.
n0n0n4t0r
I would have remained in my small town in France, so no gun/crime problem:)

For the healthcare, idk how it would be handled.

ThePowerOfFuet
>For the healthcare, idk how it would be handled.

Bankruptcy, I bet. For me, the carte Vitale wins that battle.

pipiscrew
hi, sorry for late reply, was busy. So, been on a place that requires VISA, makes you slave (vs country locals). Specially in US, the companies using their 'staff' 100%. You have 44 countries to choose in EU.
tluyben2
You would be working as a freelancer right? Or will they use some agency to hire you? Freelance senior PHP dev would be 90-100/hr in the EU so 180k-200k. If it’s via an agency, you will need to do more calculations with social security and mandatory taxes in France.
n0n0n4t0r
They let me choose between freelancer and employee.
badpun
If you're above market in France it implies your skills are in demand. I'd say that makes the $100k ask on a low side. I've worked a bunch of US remote jobs from Poland and the lowest I got was $115k (and that was years ago, pre-inflation).
throwmenow_0140
Can you explain how you got these well-paid remote jobs in the US for EU/German people and the process for the applications? I got 7 years of experience in developing with Python/Django, JavaScript/Vue/React (B2B platforms), I'm looking for $160-250k jobs in the US which seem to be on par with my current skillset (I led teams of 10-15 employees, built a B2B platform with hundreds of customers and running the infra on AWS).
badpun
Three of them were through HackerNews's "Who's hiring" thread actually and a fourth one was company's recruiter reaching out to me via LinkedIn.
DoingIsLearning
How did you work it out taxes wise?

Were you hired by these companies as an employee? Or were you working as a contractor, with your company based in Poland?

isbvhodnvemrwvn
Not the other guy, but for me majority do B2B where you are a contractor (VASTLY, vastly preferential taxation in Poland - 12% flat revenue tax + health insurance), some insist on employer of record (effective tax nearing 30% + you have to pay for retirement you are never getting).
badpun
Contractor, in all of the cases. Employment is not possible if the company does not have a legal entity in Poland, and they were all startups with only presence being in the US. I think they also like having foreign contractors, because they pay them less than they would US employes, but the contractors have zero benefits or other rights. (That may be different for late-stage startups BTW when the company wants to get acquired, because I imagine the intellectual rights aspect of the international contracts may raise some eyebrows during the due diligence.)
a-priori
There are employers of record that will hire employees on a company’s behalf through a local entity when the company doesn’t have their own. I’m currently employed through Deel, for example.
toomuchtodo
I’m on the other side of Deel as an employer. How do you like working with them as an employee? I want to make sure the experience is great for those I’m paying.
a-priori
I’m only one week of work in. It’s fine so far: I got paid on time, benefits are okay.

The biggest problem for me were in the on-boarding around ID. I provided a driver’s licence plus SIN, which is sufficient proof of identity and eligibility to work in Canada. A regular employer would only need the SIN, and I understand a company like Deel would also need to verify identity since they hadn’t actually met me.

But, no, apparently they require proof of citizenship (for citizens anyway), which no regular employer needs. For that you need to provide a “passport or national ID”… but Canada has no national ID system, only passports, and my passport is expired (because COVID). They had to make an exception for me to accept an expired passport.

It worked out okay in the end but it was frustrating and confusing for about two weeks, during which I had paused my job search and I was worried I’d have to walk away from a good offer if they couldn’t sort it out.

So in the end I think it’ll be okay, but I’d talk to your own employees, especially new ones, and make sure they don’t get caught up in some bureaucratic snag.

DoingIsLearning
I will hijack the question with another question. I have seen a lot of discussion about Deel and Remote.com but I am not clear how this is initiated.

Did you just advertise the position worldwide and then let Deel sort the details out with candidates abroad? Or did your employee propose to use Deel at some point in the hiring process and you agreed to it?

toomuchtodo
I use Deel to streamline logistics with folks I have an existing relationship with, and was previously using wires or TransferWise to provide payouts. Have not advertised remote roles using the platform yet.
ThePowerOfFuet
It's wonderful to see this. I hope your employees appreciate you!
throwmenow_0140
Any chance we can talk via mail? I've put my mail address in the account.
dopidopHN
As a French dev, I divise US salary by two to get a a French equivalent.

If you are making 70k in France, absolutely don’t go under 6 figures in the US.

I would target 140 and asks for 150k.

My rationale is that when your French boss give you a sweat euro. He give 1 euro to the French gov as well for your unemployment / medical / retirement fund.

Also… empirically: it works.

rat9988
Are you talking about 1 gross euro in france ?
credit_guy
> My rationale is that when your French boss give you a sweat euro. He give 1 euro to the French gov as well for your unemployment / medical / retirement fund.

And if you are a foreign company, you are exempt from this law? I find that hard to believe.

fy20
In this case most likely OP will not be 'employed', they will be self employed and working through a business to business relationship with the US company. In that case they will need to pay their own social security contributions in France, where as if you are employed it is paid by the employer/comes out of your gross salary.

To be 'employed' the US company would need to setup a legal entity in France, and ensure they are compliant with all French labour laws, which doesn't really make sense for them to do for a single person.

dopidopHN
If a company do business legally in France and hire worker there, they will pay taxes in regards to labors laws

Those represent roughly the amount the employee gets ( net )

b20000
x2 won’t be enough as you might be temporarily unemployed and that needs to be paid for as well
2rsf
Something else to think about, from experience of a friend- if you are employed then the French vacation days, sick leave, notice period and other benefits will seem weird to problematic. If you are a contractor then you will "only" need to explain your vacation days.
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b20000
if you still live in france they will probably need to pay for french benefits and you have no “risks” since you are not moving

if you become self employed and work for them this way, you need to multiply your net salary in france by 3x so you can pay all taxes and build a safety cushion