HN Explorer

Ask HN: How influential can physical appearance be in professional environments?

85 points by selfawareMammal ↗ HN
I'm talking about ugly/good-looking, fat/fit, skinny/strong, tall/short... etc. Do you think physical appearance plays an important role to define hierarchies inside organizations and can decide who has the upper hand in debates?

171 comments

[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 229 ms ] thread
airbreather
There is some evidence that if there was any single physical characteristic that seems to be positive it is tallness.

However, there are obviously many possible arguments on subtle cause/effects with correlated characteristics etc.

I provide no references, but plenty exist if you search.

maury91
Then I'm very screwed, I'm a Sardinian in Lithuania

( Sardinians are the shortest population in Europe,and Lithuanians one of the tallest )

selfawareMammal
Thankfully it's not all about height, even though it's important. I'm sure you can sharpen other skills to make things go your way.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
maury91
I'm sorry it wasn't understandable, but I was sarcastic, I'm doing great even if I'm the shortest
giuscri
How did you end up in Lithuania from Sardinia? How's the life there for an engineer?
maury91
Kind of the classic story, my wife is Lithuanian. We first tried living in Sardinia but the job market in Sardinia is terrible, so we moved to her country so she could even more chances, and because I'm an Engineer for me finding work is easy in every country.

Here in Lithuania Engineers are paid very well and are in high demand. For "very well" I mean compared to the average salary in the country, obviously you will get less money compared to UK or Germany. Cost of life is way cheaper than UK or Italy, both food and rent/mortgage is less than the other two countries

Bakary
Is it hard to illegally procure casu marzu in Lithuania?
maury91
I'm not a big eater of Casu Martzu, so I don't know if getting is hard, but my parents usually ship me some homemade cheese without problems, I believe they could ship also Casu Martzu without problems ( I don't think customs check what type of cheese is being shipped )
goethes_kind
Fratello! For me, being short seems to make people believe I am more approachable and that seems to work in my favour.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
dijonman2
It’s not about what you have, it’s about what you do with what you have.

People who take care of themselves tend to have their life together. Correlation vs causation and all that.

vagrantJin
Anecdotes are data points as well.

Works well in careers where interacting with people might be more important than proficiency at the job.

jstx1
Very - you can predict success to some extent based purely on people's yearbook photos:

> Here the authors find that inferences of power from photos of the faces of the managing partners of America’s top 100 law firms significantly corresponded to their success as leaders, as measured by the amounts of profits that their firms earned. More interesting, this relationship was also observed when judgments were made based on photos of the leaders taken from their undergraduate yearbooks, before they began their careers or entered law school. Facial cues to success may therefore be consistent across much of the lifespan (approximately 20–50 years).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258189428_Judgments...

There is also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect - which is different from the above but obviously related.

WithinReason
> you can predict success to some extent based purely on people's yearbook photos

It's already shown that facial attractiveness can predict athletic prowess:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1474704918801369

So it's likely that people's abilities can influence their appearance. There was a lot of evolutionary pressure to develop abilities to judge people based on appearance, so we would expect humans to be really good at it.

ethanbond
This result isn’t surprising at all though, compared to financial success. Obviously athleticism would be physically visible on the face (and probably be considered more attractive).
petesergeant
> Obviously athleticism would be physically visible on the face

It what now? What athleticism cues other than body-fat are you getting from a face?

barry-cotter
Testosterone levels. I know a cleft chin develops with high T. I’m sure there are other more subtle diagnostic traits. Probably more stereotypically masculine traits like heavy brow ridges.
WithinReason
Testosterone could also predict success in life based on yearbook photos, so we come full circle.
ethanbond
Why would you suppose a person needs more cues than body fat to see a difference? Seems perfectly sufficient on its own.
petesergeant
Because I think Vitalik Buterin probably has low athleticism and I think Ben Tameifuna probably has high athleticism, and a headshot of the former could be a school's star cross-country runner where the latter could be the school's star beer drinker.
ethanbond
"Sufficient to explain a correlation" does not mean "tails do not exist on the distribution."

Pro athletes are also a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the world's athletic population.

xupybd
Pretty people get undeserved favor form basically everyone.

Presentation has a lot of power. We're all shallower than we'd like.

You can game this with little effort. Dress well, maintain a good haircut and pretend to be confident.

XorNot
Also shower every day, and use deodorant. Too many people think if they can't smell anything then no one else can. They're wrong.

Smell is a very primal sense, pretty much linked to our "you are in danger" response.

feet
>Smell is a very primal sense, pretty much linked to our "you are in danger" response.

Are you stating that all scents are fear inducing?

XorNot
No, but it is a sense we use constantly: people instinctively avoid unpleasant odors. It's one of our most basic environment assessment tools and it's always active: we smell things to assess all sorts of properties, but chiefly "is this toxic/a biohazard" is pretty well coded into us.

Forcing someone to consciously suppress that impression upfront is fighting against some pretty basic "am I safe?" instincts.

feet
Smells also let us know when people are sick or signal a good match for mates, but deodorant is us covering up all signals without considering those other possibilities.

When is the last time smells helped you avoid a toxic human?

fredestine
tbh it depends. in IT if you are handsome other people will be jealous and they will also think you are stupid or not as smart as them because of your appearance.
lm28469
As much as everywhere else, everyone will tell you it doesn't matter but we're all biased in a way or another
tipsytoad
I'm sure it has a role, alongside other features such as charisma and confidence.

Of course the effect is subjective and varied, but oftentimes I've found that people that claim a decision being down to appearance to be those that blame their computer when their code doesn't run :)

lbriner
My own experience is that confidence trumps everything. There are people who really don't know that much (in multiple fields, not just Dev) but they are either completely un self-aware or they don't care and simply portray rock solid confidence.

Perhaps some fields demand this like marketing where certain sorts of marketing are hard to quantify/value objectively so you need to show confidence so that the department keeps its funding!

rchaud
Confidence that persists in spite of rejection.

People who are by their own admission lack confidence will not enter situations where the probability of rejection is high. Confident people will enter a greater number of these situations, and will continue to enter them even if they were rejected previously.

steerpike
Coming to grips with the hidden influence of my own physicality has been a long term struggle for me. I realised over a long time that the fact that I was over six foot, male, white, bearded, broad and articulate meant that people inherently saw me as significantly more capable and tended to defer to me in a multitued of situations. This wasn't something that naturally gelled with the way I viewed my own competencies, but it's also really, really, really hard to get people to stop doing. Basically I have a significant 'self discrepancy gap'[0] between 'Own Actual' and 'Other Actual' that I constantly need to work at. Years of experience have taught me that these kind of gaps are pretty common in our industry.

Yes it exists and think it's incredibly important for people to be aware of the power of their own physicality and not to abuse it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory

Traubenfuchs
Own it and be thankful for the gifts you were given.

I just wonder where we were today without those favorable attributes?

eigart
I have those same physical traits, and this comment was helpful. This has been really frustrating as a junior developer, it's just impossible to get any critical feedback or have someone take a mentorship role. I've been in so many dumb situations where someone more experienced or knowledgeable should have just told me I was doing something dumb.

I am certain it is a net positive without trying to abuse it, but I've been thinking about it a lot since graduating. Everyone just treats me really well and places a lot of completely unwarranted trust in me.

jan_Inkepa
>This has been really frustrating as a junior developer, it's just impossible to get any critical feedback or have someone take a mentorship role.

I've had a situation where I was asking a tall/attractive/charismatic acquaintance for technical advice and he stoped me and said something like "Why are you asking me for advice, you are way more experienced than I am". It's not that I shouldn't have talked with him about the technical matter, just that it was funny that I slid so naturally into the 'underling' role.

giardini
segue into something like "Well, I really need another look, another perspective, someone else's eyes on this b/c I think I'm missing something here, and I knew you'd be a good person to ask. I value your input."

And a warning: in your situation you may not know if "you are way more experienced" than he is (he may just be stroking your ego to divert you). I've been in the same situation where time revealed the other guy was hoarding information to his advantage. I talked him into a bit of a reveal.

cryptoanon
Short guys have it extremely tough. No marginalized group would ever recognize the struggle of short guys. It’s a tough life, extremely tough to match, tough to get people to pay attention professionally (at first), and just tough to not make people subconsciously infantilize you (“Aw cute!” “Impressive!”).

I think the fact that most people would not seriously consider short guys as a marginalized group is proof itself of how marginalized it is. It’s hard not to be resigned to it. The biological marker that associates height with (physical and mental) fitness is just too strong.

At the end of the day, we are all blessed to have an opportunity on this mortal realm and we all have to move on and live life, but sometimes I wish that more people had the same empathy that you’re showing.

nathan_compton
I wouldn't say no one thinks about this issue, but I agree its typically dismissed as not serious.

I think society thinks its important to socialize men in particular to "listen to authority without complaining" and this not-so-subtly tells certain men that if people don't treat you with respect then its your problem, not theirs.

One thing I hate about the contemporary American political landscape is that its all in on the false dichotomy between personal responsibility and a well conceived society. Both things can coexist and in fact require one another.

In fact, even though republicans love to talk about "personal responsibility," in a free market it is one of the least required things: the market tells you what to do with yourself on pain of penury. Its really in a society where conventions like social welfware can be abused where people's personal responsibility, character and civic virtues really matter.

Thorentis
> the market tells you what to do with yourself on pain of penury

The market isnt some ethereal thing that magically coerces people to do things. The market is made up of other people, all of whom are also exercising their personal responsibility to look after their self interests. Game theory is the best way to look at this.

annyeonghada
Incredible that the same thing could be said with lots of perceived "inequality" but in such case "systemic forces" are the cause and personal responsibility is to be avoided.
iamacyborg
While I sympathise with this struggle, as a 5'5 guy I don't feel like I've suffered from this all that much.

Certainly the shift to remote work and remote interviews has helped though.

brandall10
Same height/experience, though as someone in my mid 40s I feel like society has gotten worse about it, possibly because younger people are that much taller now. But for instance I was promoted to management in my early 30s.

I’ve mostly been remote for the past decade so it’s hard to quantify what things would be like now.

Tepix
When you're short, perhaps you should get into sailing: You can buy a much cheaper boat! When you're 190+cm (~6'3"+) most boats under 33 feet or so will not have enough headroom. At the same time, longer boats get exponentially more expensive.
someweirdperson
Physical size and mass are helpful to keep the boat upright in strong winds. Just need to duck a bit more to not get hit by the boom.

I never thought of sailing as the perfect hobby for short people, except in boring weather conditions.

Maybe headroom for sleeping, not actually sailing as a sport?

Tepix
I was thinking about keel yachts where you want to stand in the galley while cooking for example.
sshine
> When you're short, perhaps you should get into sailing

What if you're only short on some weekdays; do you time-share a boat?

ramblerman
While this is true to an extent, remember (as with most victim complexes) that it very quickly becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
brandall10
Right. The issue is more of first impressions... generally speaking, on a day to day basis, yeah, you feel it. This is going to be much more of an issue for someone for instance in sales.

Around people you spend time around it's pretty easy to lance that perception if you carry yourself w/ confidence, make good eye contact, say smart things, etc.

krageon
As a short person, it is a small disadvantage but not impossible to overcome with significant force of personality and fitness. As disgusting as it is, it is not unreasonable to look at yourself compensating in this way and realising that everyone has something to fix. Very few people are born perfect, and even if they are that doesn't help you get where you want to be.
sph
> not impossible to overcome with significant force of personality and fitness

Definitely, but you're hand waving how hard that is (not that I would know, being a tall white person like OP). It's like saying "just be funny."

Bakary
Well either you overcome it or you don't. Focusing on how hard it is doesn't move the needle. Even getting people to acknowledge your struggle does nothing.
krageon
Pointing it out / getting people to acknowledge it actually does the opposite: Folks will focus on your perceived shortcoming more and most of them won't turn that into constructive change. In effect you're just making it worse.
krageon
I'm not hand waving it, I literally did it. It is not easy but also not some terrifying abyss. I think in such scenarios it doesn't help people to present this as a really big problem, they are helped with the reality: It is something to do if you want to do it. If you do want to, you can. It doesn't require a significant lifestyle change, just regular exercise time (even once a week makes a big difference in most people). It's effort and it's not fair, but it is eminently available to almost everyone.

Edit: I'm sorry, I glossed over the "force of personality" part. This might take you a few years to get right, but since it boils down to "be more assertive" the only way to get better is to consciously work at doing it. It is the same as building any other habit.

gorilla0
Agree, I have been in the industry for long enough to see that they are discriminated against. One thing which can counter the effect of height is humour - people who are funny and extrovert can get over this to a large extent (I guess this goes not only for professional relationships but personal ones too).
strikelaserclaw
a lot of short people at the top, you just gotta be more assertive where as for tall guys, people give a little bit of deference automatically.
giardini
I'm tall but some of the best people in my life have been short. I do remember one boy in school who was short and I think his combative nature was a result of how others treated him and his interpretation of that. He had a hard time.

My shoulder doctor is short but a godsend for diagnosing and fixing my shoulders worn out from bad swimming habits.

I don't quite get the "physical fitness" thing b/c someone who is short can be in excellent shape. On measures of sheer mass and strength such as football, bench press or reach (e.g., basketball) perhaps they don't score as high. But for example, the short guys can usually run your ass off, come back and laugh at you while you can barely breathe. So there are sports where they excel.

We had a short guy in high school who could play basketball like Bob Cousy: he could beat the opposing team almost by himself! He was unbelievable. But his dad wanted him to help run his service station so we just had him for a few games.

Honestly, it seems that men get more of their problems from social aspects of their fathers than they do from their physical aspects (e.g.,physique).

lettergram
Working remote via video chat must the great equalizer haha…

In reality I think people working remote haven’t worse off.

While I think height does play a role, as a slightly below average height male I’ve personally never had an issue dominating / being defaulted to after brief interactions.

While this trend / tendency does exist and imo is extremely strong genetically (looking to the “alpha”), a few words can shake that tendency in most rooms.

I think being better groomed, fit, etc probably plays an overall larger role in terms of projecting competence.

Being confident and speaking with conviction in statements likely outweighs everything

dazzawazza
You pretty much describe me. Except I am very confident, have over 35 years of software engineering experience and am touching upon 50 years old. I recently joined a very large games company with a great reputation for diversity, inclusion and all that jazz. I was very happy.

I've been successful in my career (I think) because I've (often) used my physical presence and all the advantages it gives me to give the floor to quieter voices, marginalized opinions and I really feel like my teams have been great teams because of that. When you enable great people, great things happen. I was looking forward to that just being the norm.

However, at this company I found myself marginalized and discriminated against. I think because of my age, maybe because of my social class or maybe because of all the accidental advantages I have. I don't know and I don't really care.

Anyway I left them.

So it can swing both ways, just enjoy the ride. Good luck.

causi
Yes, we're in an interesting time where the advantages you have in person are disadvantages on paper, in regards to hiring priorities, diversity drives, HR policy, etc.
throwaway9980
I share a lot of these characteristics and while I don’t think I’ve actually been discriminated against, internally I feel like it’s inevitable and it makes me incredibly self conscious. More than anything I just want to be invisible. Remote work is pretty helpful in this regard.
silveroriole
Please use your powers to support and amplify others if you can. I have the opposite experience where I’ve dropped out of multiple lead roles because getting anyone to listen to me or acknowledge my decisions required a huge battle every single time. (Then I leave and they hire a consultant who looks like you to tell them the same things…!)
giardini
One tall man's story: IIRC he had been a football player in college. He loved sales but found his size was a problem. He came up with a ruse: upon entering an office where he sensed the target customer was uneasy with the salesman's size, he "took a dive" - he literally fell down! Chaos would ensue as everyone rushed to help: gather his glasses, dust him off, retrieve pen and briefcase and such. He would apologize for his clumsiness and somehow the incident would always cement the bond between him and his customer.
antiherovelo
It matters. If you are tall and good looking, it helps.

BUT…

Amongst the vast majority of the most capable, successful, and broadly well-respected people I have worked with, their status has had little to do with their beauty. I am thinking of folks that are not “attractive” in any conventional sense, yet their wits and competence and heart makes them so.

In certain professions, the effect of beauty is outsized. I hardly need name these; look for shallow aesthetes and cameras. In technical professions that value actual competence, I have found that it doesn’t matter (much.)

totetsu
Throw into that list, the way you talk, the set of vocabulary you use, the clothes you wear, your Cultural Capital.
thefz
Yes, in good and bad ways.

I've witnessed very competent and attractive female colleagues get discredited for their appearance, every comment implying that they fucked their way up to their position, or being unable to be close friends with any male coworker for the same reason.

But all in all dressing appropriately to your body, being clean and well groomed is a positive for everyone.

noir_lord
All things been equal (which they never are) then physical attractiveness is probably a slight benefit to the attractive person.

Similar to the statistical correlation with tallness (though again whether that's a matter of taller than average people doing well because they are taller or because physical height is correlated with better diet/socio-economic group as a child etc).

This stuff is always so blurry because of confounding factors and inability to control for other factors.

luckylion
It obviously does.

It will be interesting how much of a shift we'll see with more work from home. Do the same effects carry over in calls and async communication? Will "more video calls" mean attractiveness plays a larger role? Will doing voice calls weaken that (or focus it on the voice alone)?

fsloth
Good looking people have always an edge. Tall people always appear more competent than their shorter colleagues.

These are biases. They can be overriden by the experiences of people in a community quite easily, but towards unfamiliar people these biases can be quite strong.

fiat_fandango
Curiously, as I've gotten older I've found that "weird" looking people who are also confident enough to some degree are almost always far more interesting in terms of personal pursuits / interests than "pretty" or conventionally attractive people. Maybe this is a personal bias - but in time being attractive impresses me to a similar degree as someone driving a flashy car - sure it's pretty looking, but I don't ascribe that to real success or depth of intellect.

Dating pretty people in New York quickly illustrated how dull most "pretty" women are. The one thing I'll never understand is how shaving my head actually increased my perceived attractiveness with women - admittedly I'm a weird somewhat unattractive person.

dougmwne
Absolutely, in a major way. There are piles of studies showing all kinds of pay discrimination based on physical characteristics. The meritocracy is bullshit. People hire tall sexy people. You really think the workplace is all that different from Tinder?
trabant00
On average and in statistics - absolutely. The effect has been measured by numerous studies. But studies use large numbers and actively try to eliminate other factors, which is why I would caution against using this on a personal level to try to explain certain outcomes. Remember this thing about statistics: on average Bill Gates and any one of us are billionaires.

I think a lot of people are using studies like this to justify some shortcomings in their life when you can easily look around the people you know and see hugely varied outcomes regardless of looks. And good looks can be a career trap too, especially if you actively rely on them.

And one more thing: by far one of the most important physical appearance factors is youth. Which goes away for the best looking. And it also clearly shows the importance of other factors as we don't have a world full of 22 year old CEOs.

mettamage
Well, tangentially related and I don't know enough of the topic (I haven't delved into it yet) but "pretty privilege" is a thing.

Here are a couple of seed links for further investigation (I have no clue about their quality):

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pretty+privileg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esiOI4tF2uo&ab_channel=zoeun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esiOI4tF2uo&ab_channel=zoeun...

--

I have some ideas, anecdotes and personal experiences on the topic (as I'm traveling a lot as a digital nomad and I tend to talk to people wherever/whenever since I solo travel).

I'm sorry that I can't make this comment razor sharp (also in brevity, it's tough to do). The reason I'm sorry for that is because I know that this is a sensitive topic and I might step on some toes. I don't intend to, but it might be a bit inevitable. Some people might think that speaking from personal experience is not enough. And yes, it's definitely biased, but I am noticing I am learning a lot more about European/western society (as a Dutch person even) than I was in the past 10 years simply because I talk to a lot of people.

I'm currently traveling a lot and in daily life I see a huge difference to how people treat you when attractive. In The Netherlands I'm at best average in attractiveness (I've asked for brutal feedback from multiple people, and I'm averaging 6 out of 10). However, in other countries I'm seen as slightly more attractive because I'm about 190 cm, which is 6.23 feet/inches (whatever you Americans use). Dutch people are one of the tallest if not the tallest in the world. So I'm more common there. Already in Germany, I'm seen as more attractive due to my "language skills" (Dutch people speak better English than Germans, on average, I definitely do; combined with some conversational German/Italian and some basic French). And I do notice the difference. And I'm beginning to get a hunch that in Southern Europe I'm even seen as more attractive since they're a lot shorter on average.

All of this is based on how I interact with women. I've noticed that men don't really act that differently around me. I've been in Lisbon and Berlin recently and met all kinds of people. But yea, I'm seeing my own "pretty privilege" (however marginal) in the dating market. People treat me differently whereas I stay the same.

And I'm definitely hearing stories of how very stereotypically attractive women are getting whatever they want (even if they don't want it). I'm also hearing how stereotypically attractive women are more prone to having experienced sexual violence. So if you think they have it easy: I'm not going to compare, I'm not going to judge. I know too little, but what I do see is that less stereotypical attractive women seem to talk less about having experienced sexual violence (again, I might be biased, my sample might be biased, something else might be off - it's just my personal experience and it does beg the question to formulate a hypothesis and investigate if one would be an academic feminist/psychologist, provided there is no research on it).

But looks influence stuff in daily life so hard that it must have a strong effect in corporate culture as well. This is especially the case since men are the assertive sex when it comes to the mating game, and men are holding more economic/political power than women.

Humans are not robots. We can't keep our emotions fully hidden or suppressed. ...

GameOfFrowns
Just ask yourself how much 'inner beauty' one can develop after a lifetime of rejection.

>But compared to my untrained self, I'm an order to two order of magnitudes better, and it has definitely helped me to make my inner world more relatable to other people. Knowing how you present yourself in a: 1 on 1 conversation, group conversation and presentation... It's important and has little to do with personality and looks

Do you think people would care as much about your inner world if you weren't tall?

mettamage
> Just ask yourself how much 'inner beauty' one can develop after a lifetime of rejection.

A lot right? I have been rejected at least thousands of times. You get desensitized and go after what you want.

Before I got any date, it was first 3 years of pure rejection. Some people don’t have the heart and courage to carry on. But when you get through that period, not much is stopping you.

And I don’t think that would matter much, except for the first 5 minutes. I was highly fantastical in my speech when I showed my inner world. People mentioned I should try writing fiction.

Dracophoenix
> I'm currently traveling a lot and in daily life I see a huge difference to how people treat you when attractive. In The Netherlands I'm at best average in attractiveness (I've asked for brutal feedback from multiple people, and I'm averaging 6 out of 10). However, in other countries I'm seen as slightly more attractive because I'm about 190 cm, which is 6.23 feet/inches (whatever you Americans use).

Thank you for an interesting self-assessment. While you're closer to the the average reported height there, I would think that height, as a desirable trait tops out at around 6'7" (~200cm) as back problems or bumping into doorframes becomes more likely.

And given what you've said about yourself, what height, build, and features are considered attractive in the Netherlands? Any notable differences between the men and women there in traits they find desirable whether stated or actual? What about along the along the lines of age groups and marital status (i.e. single, in a relationship, married, divorced)?

Who would be a common example of the "societally attractive" 10/10 in the Netherlands?

What emotional traits are considered desirable(e.g. stoic, relaxed, agressive, etc.)?

How "loose" are the people in Amsterdam? Popular culture stateside exaggerates it out to be a libertine utopia with an unlimited supply of sex drugs, but from what I've read through first- and second-hand accounts, many of them tend to be "shy" (at least relative to Americans) or "friendly, but reserved".

rrgok
I'm kinda glad to read these comments, because they mostly align with my perception. The popular opinion among my circle of friends and relatives is that appearance doesn't matter for men: it is all hard-work and grind. It is exhausting to make people see that all else being equal, physicality play a non negligible role.
reactor
Beside all those mentioned, I've seen people with loud and sharp (not high pitch sort of) voice getting an edge (sometimes unfair advantage) in many professional settings.
jan_Inkepa
"Sharp", as in people who are good at articulating words?
reactor
People who are good at articulation will have listeners, but what I meant is sound without 'buzziness'.
GameOfFrowns
Perhaps you mean 'voice projection'?

Unfortunately voice is just another factor that comes to genetics. I've been training to lower my rather high-pitched voice and voice projection for years now, albeit without much to show. Guess I hit the limit of my genetic potential.

silveroriole
And in any loud, crowded room (say at a conference, or a pub/bar after work), women and quieter men will struggle to be heard at all. Men with loud deep voices will dominate the conversation automatically. This probably has more impact on professional development than people think.
blackoil
If I consider my own biases, I would consider a fit, well groomed person to be more competent. I believe this bias is based on fact that if someone is fit also means he/she is disciplined and well groomed is meticulous and these traits would transfer to other aspects of work also. Now, I understand that lot of things like age, genetics, ... make up for some of the signal that I am reading, but that is the nature of biases.
GameOfFrowns
A lot of what makes attractive men's bodies look "attractive" is in the bone structure. They look fit without actually having to be fit: height, rugged face, wide shoulders, barrel chest, narrow hips.
quadcore
deleted
statictype
Kind of agree.

There are definite obvious advantages in certain physical characteristics.

But it’s trivial to overshadow those with either

a. being really good at what you do

b. Being socially approachable

c. Deft at playing the political game

lotsofpulp
If you have to be 99.9999th percentile at what you “do” to overshadow those, how trivial is it?

I do not foresee a future where an American political party nominates a 5ft3in (1.6m) man as a Presidential, or even Senate candidate. Similar for playing professional level sports, or lead actor in movies.

matwood
Tom Cruise is listed as 5'7" - he's probably a bit shorter. Sports will lean towards whatever physical characteristics benefits the sport.
lotsofpulp
Tom Cruise is 60 years old and got famous during a time a when average height for upper socioeconomic classes was lower. Is there any example more recent than him?

If he was auditioning for his roles today, I doubt he gets them. Especially because actresses are nowadays just as tall or taller with heels, why bother having to do all the work to make the actor look a little taller than the actress, when you can just hire another actor.

>Sports will lean towards whatever physical characteristics benefits the sport.

Of course, but in many popular sports, being taller and bigger makes you so much faster and stronger such that if you are first percentile in size, no realistic amount of talent will give you an advantage.

matwood
I mentioned Tom Cruise because he's one of the biggest action/movie stars ever. We don't really have actors with that much pull anymore, and it's why I didn't mention someone like Kevin Hart or Jessie Eisenburgh or one of the Francos (I forget which). Someone like Robert Downey Jr. is ~5'9". Sure, he's older, but also the lead in some of the biggest action movies in history.

For sports, I think it's better to look at the reverse. Not every 7' person makes it to the NBA or is even good at basketball. But, there are plenty of relatively smaller players in the NBA who do well and some are even super stars. The classic example was Mugsy Bogues, but Steph Curry is 6'2" in sport where height is so important.

Pick a sport where height isn't necessarily a dominating factor like the NHL and there are plenty of players under 6'.

lotsofpulp
There are players under 6ft, but not 5ft 3in players.

It is not a hard cutoff, but the probability of success with a certain height can decrease exponentially as height decreases.

Kevin Hart is not a leading actor either, he is the comic relief. In the movies I have seen, Dwayne Johnson is the lead actor. For example, Kevin Hart would not be Captain America, or even Black Panther. In fact, I think one of the Captain America movies showed the guy being short before he was enhanced and turned into Captain America.

You would not be able to sell a 5ft 3in actor as the fantasy escape for who people who want to fantasize about who they could be or the leader they would have.

[deleted]
(comment deleted)
log101
Here it is asked whether appearance makes any difference in professional setting, but comments seem to be diverged from the question. Young people seem to exaggerate the role of their appearance, it might make a slight difference when you first trying to find a job, but after that all that is left is your experience and talent. I can't imagine getting fired for being ugly or landing (and then staying at) a job for being attractive.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
GameOfFrowns
>but after that all that is left is your experience and talent

This is wishful thinking.

rchaud
> I can't imagine getting fired for being ugly or landing (and then staying at) a job for being attractive.

You're looking at it the other way around. You wouldn't get fired for being 'ugly', but you could be treated less well than your co-workers, or not be offered a pathway to a higher-level job with better compensation.