Ask HN: Why corporate culture never increment your salary?

27 points by rrzt ↗ HN
I work for biggest and soughtafter corporate company in Canada. I have been at the company for 2 years. Since I joined, my manager and team feels productivity, code quality and delivery time of team has improved by 50%. I work extra hard and spend overtime to run this team. Over this time, demands of my manager has increased ten folds. I have received no complaints in my performance review meets. My performance review meets are only about what my manager wants next. No single mention of pay and salary improvement. My clients have put in recommendations to my manager highlighting my quality of work. Those recommendations never helped.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM.

For last 2 years, my compensation has remained the same. Not a 0.1% increase. Over last 2 years, this corporate has exceeded the expectation in quarterly results and gained billions in surplus.

I am deeply hurt and disappointed with way corporate works. I feel cheated.

75 comments

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Have you spoken with them regarding salary? You should not expect a big corporation to treat you fairly. They will pay you less if they can. If you feel you deserve a raise you may need to initiate that conversation. You should show evidence that you have benefited the company and ideally have a back up plan to search for another job if they say no
Look at the 'problem' from the company's perspective. They're making bank. They're not losing staff. They might not even know you're unhappy. Why would they change anything?

If you want things to change you have to act.

I feel like this is such an annoying attitude from companies. Just show your appreciation towards your employees and give them a raise once in a while. Without the employee having to ask the employer. I get that money needs to be made, but that will stop fairly quickly if you don't keep your employees happy. Of course you will hear the standard management talk "but then, how are we supposed to know that you want a raise", come on man, no one will ever complain about a pay raise.
I get that money needs to be made, that will stop fairly quickly if you don't keep your employees happy

The author of this post says they're working super hard, productivity is up, the company is making money, and they're not complaining. All of the signals that the company is getting are very positive that this person is having fun, enjoying their work, and they're happy with their salary.

Yes and I'm saying that it doesn't hurt to just give them a pay raise after x amount of time, even if it's just a few percentages.
If they're expecting more then a small raise will push them to leave.
No raise will push harder.
You'd think so, but it doesn't. People will wait for the 'big raise' that's 'coming soon' for a really long time. Getting a small raise tells them that there won't be a big raise, so they look for a new role as soon as they get it.
People who were played for suckers in this obvious way are less likely to return to you in a crunch. Word also gets around about practice of your company. A big corporation might weather the bad PR and missed hiring opportunities, small company not necessarily.

Who you are left with are either very naive new kids, high rotation desperate people or people adept at minimizing work done.

How accepted is it to tell your boss that you can make $X more at another company?
It's very common. It's a risky move though. Some managers will suggest you leave and find a role paying that because they can't match it. Some will suggest you wait until they can persuade their boss that you deserve a raise (might never happen). Some will tell you that they think the other company is overpaying, and just refuse to match it. And very occasionally the company will match that salary (but you won't get another raise for years after that, because you're 'already on more than we want to pay').
This is common but shortsighted approach. They are not losing staff now. But they should be aware that it doesn't mean they will not lose it in future and should work toward preventing it. Raise is one way to do it.
Unfortunately you have to ask for a raise in order to get one in most companies. Otherwise they can always go defensive and say "they didn't even know you wanted one!", just shoot your shot. In the worst case you don't get it and you know you can look for another job if you really want a pay raise.
Whats the point of overtiming or doing more than you're signed up for? You're basically donating valuable time off your life to your boss for free.

If your salary isn't changing for two years you simply need to show them offer from diff company with good bump in pay and see if they want to give a counter offer.

(comment deleted)
What do you mean? It's well-known fact that if you want to increase your salary, you need to change employer.
This really depends on the company you work for, I've had several increases of salary at the same employer, just because I asked for it and had some good arguments. It costs way more money to get a new employee than it will cost to give an existing employee a pay raise.
For a single employee, yes. But across the organization, it saves money to not give any significant raises, and just suffer the attrition. For every malcontent that leaves because they want more money, there's 9 others who just stay and put up with it year after year. Besides, hiring doesn't cost much: they already have HR staff on the payroll to handle that, so it gives them something to keep them busy.

Finally, many companies like to have a certain amount of churn. Bringing in fresh people helps keep the skillsets up-to-date since new employees bring the stuff they learned from their previous employers. If you just have the same staff for decades, they get stagnant.

Have you asked for more? There is no incentive to pay you more if they think that you are content with your position. Not much can go wrong when asking for a raise. Worst case, you continue to get paid the same, which seems to be the trend here.
so you were thinking management has any time or motivation to think about individual team members wants and needs? why do you expect them to actually manage when they are so busy spending the money you made for them dummy

you may or may not get a raise if you ask for it, you will most assuredly get no raise if you never ask

squeaky door gets the grease..

Corporation will almost never give you a raise if you don't ask. In their interest is to pay as little as possible and they also need to be careful - if they pay too much, you may amass capital and leave to start your own business. So these things need to be balanced.

You have to be prepared to quit. Here in the UK the most effective way to get a raise is to actually find a new employer and ask 15-25% more than at one's current place.

> I am deeply hurt and disappointed with way corporate works. I feel cheated.

I feel this every day and I’ve been working for over a decade. Work has so little to do with getting things done and being rewarded.

Ask your manager who to talk to about getting a pay rise. Hopefully it won’t be your direct manager because they might get paid less than what you’re asking for. Come prepared with a list of responsibilities that are above your current pay grade. Don’t bring up fairness. Ask for a rise a few k above what you think you can actually get. Ask your coworkers their salary if you’re brave. Be aware that management will probably fob you off and tell you the pay rise is impossible and you don’t deserve it, you’ll come away feeling devalued and stupid, but they’ll probably grant it anyway. Don’t expect regular pay reviews to come to you (my managers have looked flabbergasted when I said it should be the main point of the appraisal/review process), make sure you’re bringing up pay regularly yourself.

e: also, once you get the raise, slack off a bit. It’s not like they can reduce your pay.

You've been doing it wrong: I practice shrinkflation principles, and work one less minute every month. That way, I effectively get a 2% raise at the end of every year.

If the company isn't satisfied with my performance, they can give me a raise to work more again.

Shortly after being acquired by IBM, I bumped into an acquaintance who'd been through the same process a few years previously. I asked, "What's it like?", he replied, "Acquirees never get a pay raise, but it's very easy to ensure your hourly rate goes up every year". Most people I subsequently met were acquirees, and his observation seemed to apply almost universally.
> I work extra hard and spend overtime to run this team.

This is a big no! Please don't do that. You are not a charity and this is not your company.

If you want to continue to do that, at very least write down the extra hours you work so that you can calculate your real wage and maybe if you see how much less you actually earn when you do that, then it may compel you to stop.

When my friend accounted for all the "all-nighters" and evenings, she realised that she was actually paid slightly over the minimum wage. It's wrong.

You are taking the wrong strategy. Work to learn, side-project and build something. Do not expect a company to give you more and more unless they want to retain you and you are not replaceable.

It is hard, but it is like this. Unless you become irreplaceable you are not going to have an easy path to salary increases.

Quite simply, you’re not valued. Good managers know about the risk of churn, bad ones don’t care. I’ve found familiarity breeds contempt (of remuneration) which can be impossible to overcome. Start applying for jobs with the % increase you’re looking for.
I had an awesome manager/lead in my last semi-corporate job but there are no miracles, they can't go above certain threshold. Within big orgs there are brackets they have to adhere to, even if they know you're a flight risk. Corporate mechanisms don't care, everyone understands that it will cost MUCH more to hire and onboard someone new. Particular people do care, just not the org itself.
They'll pay you as low as they can get away with, just like they charge customers as much as they can get away with.

Companies only offer salary increase to people they absolutely want to keep, if you're just a cog in the machine they can afford you to quit and get another cog

Out of school, I worked in consulting for 2-3 years and was in a similar situation, here is what I learned:

- The best just leave, they don't negotiate. When negotiating, management will dangle a carrot 6-9 months away at the next "annual review" or whatever. And by then you'll be just disappointed.

  > My performance review meets are only about what my manager wants next.
- Those who ask for more, get more. Some cultures don't like talking about money. But make sure it is a point on YOUR agenda, so before the meeting ends,say something "Hey I had some points I wanted to talk about with you".

- Only make an ultimatum if you're willing to follow-up on it. When asking for a raise, make a case as you did here: "demands increased ten folds", "clients are happy" etc.. but be prepared for a bullshit response or an insulting 1% raise. Have a fallback plan and start interviewing.

People will say that you must confront your manager and demand fair compensation. That's true, but if anybody was paying attention to your work and your worth, if they actually cared about you as a person, they would have given you a raise already before you started feeling this way. They're ripping you off, and that's business as usual. Yes, being exploited is disappointing - you have to demand what you're worth, or seek better company elsewhere.
> but if anybody was paying attention to your work and your worth, if they actually cared about you as a person, they would have given you a raise already before you started feeling this way

This would be wonderful in an ideal world, but it's not reality. You wouldn't need marketing if your customers just already knew how amazing your product was. You wouldn't need a CV if employers just understood your worth. It's unreasonable to expect people to care about you as deeply as you do. If they happen to care that's an amazing plus to be valued. It's not what you should expect.

Where I live, there is a mandatory yearly wage negotiation, I've heard that Canada is a first tier country and assume it has one as well.

I'd most certainly take it up at that conversation, and argue as you do here, that you've felt a significant increase in workload (and the responsibility that entails?) and suggest that you be compensated for this.

Corporations exist to make money for their shareholders and the executive suite. Staff salaries are an expense, i.e. reduces the net profit available for the above.

I empathize with you in feeling cheated. As so many other commenters suggest, changing jobs for more pay is the only practical and reliable option.

Because they know you'll do the work you're doing -- and the tenfold increase -- for what they're paying you.

They exist to make money, not to enrich their workers. The optimisation strategy is to pay as little as possible for as much productivity and labour as possible, then charge as much as possible for it to customers as a package item. Everything trickles up to the top of the pyramid.

Sadly the only way to reliably increase your pay is to dust off your CV and change jobs.

You might get a counter-offer from your current employer if they feel you're particularly valuable -- but I'd never accept one. At best, you'll end up being higher paid than some or all of your colleagues, and if they find out or suspect that (they certainly will if you flip from "I'm leaving" to "I'm staying") then you should expect resentment from them.

It's really better to walk away and start with a clean slate in another place. I've never regretted moving jobs -- but I've definitely regretted staying at a bad one, or one which didn't value my input.

I don't agree that the only way to increase pay is to move jobs. I've had a lot of success simply asking for more money while explaining why I feel I provide value enough to justify it. I got a 20% increase this year just by asking for it.
It's even better if you do look for a job, get and offer and say to your manager that you already have an offer but you would stay for X amount. This worked for me twice before and the company went out of its way to meet my request and now pays me the maximum allowed for my position.
Whether that works depends on the company culture. It makes you look like "you're only working for the money" and people won't trust you because "you will switch as soon as you get a better offer".
Which is what a rational person looks like under the circumstances. One would assume reasonable people are easier to hold and work with. But not necessarily cheaper, no.
What else are you working for if not the money? XD
Before looking for a new job, put together all these things you have done in a paper to make a point for the salary bump. Request exactly the amount you want, the company might negotiate, so prepare for that (ask for more holidays or other types of compensation).

If what you said it's true, this is essentially just a matter of renegotiating your contract.

Yes it's disappointing, it should come from the company itself.

However at least you won't need to interview, just the negotiation phase.

The company is also kinda forced to give you at least a salary bump, or they know you will start searching.

This is the sensible advice. Don't just ask for a raise, gather evidence to support your request. It's a negotiation, and you need to prepare well for it.

Some companies give small yearly rises to keep up with inflation, but others will expect employees to speak themselves. It all depends on how much pressure the shareholders/board exert to keep fixed expenses from growing.

I think this is actually pretty unusual. My experience with current and past jobs is that I'm given raises without asking. There should also be some sort of career track on offer at most places; getting to the next level usually comes with a compensation increase.

The ruthless capitalist suggests that you should interview at other places on a regular basis, to kind of get another "bid" on your skills. Over a decade ago I worked at an investment bank and this was pretty much the only way to get raises. Entire teams would leave one bank, do the same project at another, then come back a few years later. You'd probably get a pretty big raise with each hop, as well.

This is not for everyone, though. It's time consuming and probably annoying for the people interviewing you if you don't actually choose to jump. My suggestion is to speak with your manager; the value of the dollar has fallen by almost 20% over the last few years. Has the value of your work fallen by the same amount? If not, your compensation should be adjusted.

Wait, have you even talked to them about that? You're the one who has to start talk about raise or promotion; especially when having good performance reviews.
> No single mention of pay and salary improvement.

But you have not mentioned them either, I take.

I get that talking about money is uncomfortable in some cultures - makes people uncomfortable. Companies absolutely use this against their employees. They put people who are good at talking about money in charge of hiring people, and they train their managers in negotiation tactics.

Your options: wise up and start talking about money, and/or leave.

For the first one, you should aim to do it at least once per year - ideally one or 2 months before evaluations and raises are done in your company. Watch videos about negotiating, or get a coach if needed. If it costs you 500 bucks and you get a 10% salary increase it will probably be worth it.

For the second one, yeah, update your LinkedIn, ask for some days off and do some interviews. But you will face the same problem: you will have to talk about money on the initial interview, and you will be the one responsible for asking for raises in the new job as well. So you might as well start working on point number 1.

Well... you can sleep/spend 15-20 minutes in the toilet if it's clean enough. If anybody dares to question what are you doing inside... well, be creative about ailments. :DD