In mice. No one thinks it applies to humans when it’s promising medicine, so why would this mean anything? It is a question, not trying to say it’s not worth discussing!
Wondering what exactly causes this effects in plant based meats as I notice that eating plants (fruits and veg and nuts), at least for me, seems to make my digestive function a lot happier than eating real meat. But I guess happier doesn’t say much about what’s actually going on down there.
I enjoyed your earlier typo that misused the word - taunted - when you probably meant touted. In a sense your typo is right! They are taunted as a meat replacement.
This isn't the plant-based meat or regular meat products that you would get off the shelf:
> Meat and plant-based meat analogue diets were prepared as follows: Firstly, all visible fat and connective tissue were removed. Pork or beef muscles were cut into smaller sizes that were visibly similar to plant-based meats. Secondly, the samples were freeze-dried and ground to a powder. All the resulting powders were passed through a 25-mesh sieve. Thirdly, the content of the main components of the freeze-dried meat powder were determined and shown in Table S1. Fourthly, the nutritionally balanced semi-synthetic AIN-93M formula2 was used as reference and the ingredients in it were replaced by meat or meat analogues according to the results of the determination. The protein in the diet is derived entirely from meat or plant-based meat analogues. Finally, the granule and purified type diets were prepared by Trophic Animal Feed High-tech Co., Ltd., China. The ingredient composition and nutritional content of diets were shown in Tables S2 and Tables S3. Except for the higher sodium, fiber, or fat content in plant-based meat analogues that cannot be fully balanced based on the protein content, various other nutrients are present in equal amounts in real meat and plant-based meat analogue diets.
I can assure you it was not junk food vegan. All whole foods and balanced. After I obtained my genome I realized that I need more long chain Omega 3 in my diet because of my FADS1 genetic profile. You do not get that from plant based foods. It was also revealed that my Finnish heritage probably has some Inuit genetics.
Same here. I first went vegetarian for 10+ years, still eating lots of dairy. When I made the step to "when possible not burden animals with my behavior" I noticed my digestion improved, my random all-year-round running noses disappeared and my skin cleared up significantly.
Couldn't you also interpret these results as: meat is hard to digest and requires a lot of work on the part of the gastric system. When you don't eat it, the gastric system is able to down-regulate.
No, you can't. Plant-based meat != meat. If you want to argue against meat, test with meat.
To put it more blunt: article is testing vegan/vegetarian junkfood. That says something about vegan/vegetarian junkfood. Not meat. Not unprocessed vegetables.
Haha right… my next question was going to be.. okay so our gut produces less XYZ…. Is that a bad thing? High consumptions of red meat is positively associated with all cause mortality - while high veggies diet is opposite.
Until you can tell me what percent of people are “potentially everyone “you can’t say this diet helps any specific person. This idea of something being generally good for a population can cause illness to a substantial amount of people.
Where is your scientific evidence That meat is hard to digest? What does it mean that it’s “hard to digest”? I mean vegetable fiber is totally undigestible and passes right through a system. So shouldn’t fiber being impossible to digest to be even worse than meat?
The protein and fat and meet may take longer to digest, but that doesn’t mean it’s “harder” to digest. Saying it is harder to digest implies that this is a problem. It’s not a problem, it’s just different.
That's what I'm thinking too. These are all digestive responses they're measuring: stuff the body does to get whatever it ate digested. Producing less of this stuff means, presumably, that less of it was needed.
This is like running a study on safety equipment and concluding that "Elbow Pads inhibit inflammation response in Skateboarders" (because they don't skin their elbows!).
Meh. I'll wait for more real science here. But this seems incredibly spun, especially given the researcher's employer identities.
Yes. And we also know that vegetarian people's digestive tract becomes longer after switching from a meat diet, and the reverse also happens if they go back to meat.
So there is definitely adaptation going on, and it's not at all necessarily pathological, but very likely beneficial.
> Key Laboratory of Meat Processing and Quality Control, MOE, Key Laboratory of
Meat Processing, MARA, Jiangsu Innovative Center of Meat Production, Processing
and Quality Control, College of Food Science and Technology, Nanjing Agricultural University, Nanjing 210095, China
I'm not saying the study is wrong. It's likely right! I just think it's going to be an interesting decade as meat producers apparently now recognise meat alternatives as an existential threat.
It's a threat, because meat replacement is so heavily promoted, no doubt with government mandates coming.
I'm personally a vegetarian, but I can't stand the government interference in food, I sympathise with meat eaters. I hear of farmers having to keep cows in sheds to protect orchids, and other nonsense. (As if it is a kindness to do this to cows, and feed them grains, etc.) Obviously this is a prelude to making meat a scarce product, cows being dangerous to the environment apparently, so people will be forced to eat artificial, human-designed, frankenfoods.
I don't think we can even conceive of the diseases and behavioural issues that a non-natural diet will cause. They aren't going to be positive though :(
>Obviously this is a prelude to making meat a scarce product, cows being dangerous to the environment apparently, so people will be forced to eat artificial, human-designed, frankenfoods.
Loads of cultures have good plant based foods and dishes. It’s only when I started living in a western country did I experience the bizarre need to make meat analogues. Just cook vegetables better.
>I'm personally a vegetarian, but I can't stand the government interference in food
Funny, because I'm a meat eater and I can't stand the government interference in making meat artificially cheap through subsidies when it is clearly the immoral and environment-hurting food option.
It also costs us the much better solution of just making meat production better. There are multiple small projects that appear to be raising meat in a carbon net sequestering manner because doing stuff like intensive but brief with multiweek regrowth phases appears to dump a ton of carbon Into the soil, creating more high quality soil. They really need to be expanding those to the whole meat industry, not getting rid of meat. There is this synergistic spot in ag for meat production that likely increases plant yields while giving animals wonderful living conditions while sequestering carbon in a much less fire prone way than growing trees that we arent even really talking about right now.
> Obviously this is a prelude to making meat a scarce product, cows being dangerous to the environment apparently, so people will be forced to eat artificial, human-designed, frankenfoods.
It's already beginning. This is what the farmer protests (barely covered in the US) in the Netherlands are about. Their government is forcing thousands of cattle farms out of business.
> Obviously this is a prelude to making meat a scarce product, cows being dangerous to the environment apparently, so people will be forced to eat artificial, human-designed, frankenfoods
I've seen this conspiracy mentioned before on the internet, can you give me a good source that led you to believe this?
I can't imagine any reasonable world where there would be any real political will for a government to mandate the replacement of meat.
I could imagine subsides similar to what the meat production industry already receives, but I can't imagine any mandates.
I could also imagine the occasional far left politician call for that some level of reduction in meat production, but I don't believe the US government would ever have the will to force people to eat meat alternatives
> I hear of farmers having to keep cows in sheds to protect orchids
Sounds more like the government intervention here is actually to protect wild flowers. The farmer in this story has then concluded it's easier/cheaper to do that by keeping the cows in the shed than to fence off the field.
Going for a walk in the countryside near me, you know, in the real world, cows are often outside in fenced fields.
At least current processed meat is usually more "Frankenfood" and comes with more unnatural additions then plant-based alternatives like e.g. Beyond Meat?
The fact that it found two independent results, that digestive response is diminished AND nutrient absorption was diminished, leads me to believe the study's design was to focus on alternative meat deficiencies rather than qualitatively compare the two.
In fact, the way the summary reads to me, it seems like they may just be cleverly restating that real meat is harder to digest.
I find this plausible, but I think it's about powdered proteins generally, or at least many of them.
I tolerate dairy well, although I only drink small amounts of sweet milk and cream, eating mostly yogurt and cheese. I like to make strained yogurt / labneh, and I'll drink the whey by itself (I like pickle and sauerkraut juice as well).
But when I add whey powder to a shake for the gainz, my stomach really doesn't like that as much. It doesn't cause problems or I wouldn't eat it, but it's just a bit gassy and sometimes irritating.
I've noticed much the same thing with the pea-protein based vegan meats. I believe it's difficult to extract proteins without denaturing them somewhat, collagen is an exception but not a vegan one.
I like eating peas just fine, peas don't give me gas and lentils rarely do (that's it for me and pulses these days), but the extracted protein, not so much, doesn't sit right.
Huh. I get almost the same thing. It always kinda baffled me, since I tolerate the source food fine, but the powder proteins give me a stomach ache beyond a certain amount.
I've tried to pin it down or at least mitigate it. It seems that emulsifiers + fats help (which is odd, as proteins themselves are often emulsifiers). My two theories are a) there are more free amino acids/oligopeptides, and some are naturally irritating, or b) these protein powders are more likely to crash out in the stomach.
I can and do eat six eggs, or a 300gm steak, or a half liter of yogurt, in one sitting.
All of these are readily digested. They also have fat, and buffing a yogurt shake with whey protein pushes the balance toward protein, sure. But strictly volume of protein doesn't hold up.
Stuff like yogurt and cheese can often be tolerated by those with lactose intolerance, especially cheeses with lower lactose levels. For whey, I would verify that you're eating the same amount of whey in both cases. Obviously, powdered whey protein has the protein extracted and dried so the same amount of whey protein will weigh substantially less than whey you separate yourself.
Regarding peas and lentils: they have a ton of fiber when eaten whole. That makes a big difference.
Couple of things come to mind - probably working together:
The human body changes at slower pace than our diet in the last 60 years. Transforming food by cooking, curing, salting, smoking, grinding and fermenting has been around for thousands of years and we have adapted to it.
Eating food deconstructed and isolated is somewhat new invention.
And the second is - with processed and refined stuff it is easier to OD. 20
grams of whey protein is probably the amount of protein you get from couple of liters of milk or a kilogram of milk. And we usually have consumed both casein and whey together.
Unfortunately plant proteins are not as digestible as animal proteins. I believe you get roughly 60% of the protein uptake from pea protein as compared to meat. This is due to the profile of specific amino acids(leucine, methionine) limiting its uptake.
A fellow fan of Peter Attia I see. His latest podcast had a protein expert on that went into great depth about the virtues and drawbacks of different protein sources. Highly recommend to people who are interested in the topic.
Anything just in mice should be taken with a grain of mouse. Lots of stuff in mice does not replicate in humans. I’m sure the inverse is true too.
I really learned this following life extension research. It’s never been a better time to be an aging mouse but for humans the progress is much slower.
Plant-based meat replacements tend to be highly processed food, which may neither be good for us nor the environment. Really, they are first a foremost exploiting a gap in the market at the moment.
I think that this really just shows that the digestive system changes and adapts to a plant-based diet. They haven't shown that there are any disadvantages to such changes; for all we know, this is actually beneficial.
I was surprised to learn recently that meat alternatives are classified as "ultra-processed" foods (dairy milk substitutes are also classified as ultra-processed as well).
> Ultra-processed foods usually contain ingredients that you wouldn’t add when cooking homemade food. You may not recognise the names of these ingredients as many will be chemicals, colourings, sweeteners and preservatives.
> More surprising to some will be...“other ultra-processed foods”. This includes baked beans, tinned soups, meat alternatives, soy and drinks used as dairy milk substitutes.
> It can be tricky to identify food that has been ultra-processed because in some cases the same type of food could be minimally processed, processed or ultra-processed, depending on how it’s been made. For example: Bread made from wheat flour, water, salt and yeast is processed, but add emulsifiers or colourings and it becomes ultra-processed.
The discussion is ridiculous to begin with. Nutritional sciences can't find any consensus within itself, but somehow a bunch of upper middle class people are enlightened when they decide to give half a damn about their diets and where their food is coming from, disregarding any notion of their current position in life to boot. Let alone extensive experimentation.
Unless I’m misunderstanding it, what this study apparently shows is that when a mouse eats unhealthy foods for some time, digestive function changes. An eye-opening result indeed.
I think this is an example of the myriad evolved biological Chesterton's fences we're only beginning to discover in our bodies.
I've personally done as much "de-modernization" as possible in my life and tried to revert to as close of a pre-industrial lifestyle and inputs as I can.
67 comments
[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 128 ms ] threadWondering what exactly causes this effects in plant based meats as I notice that eating plants (fruits and veg and nuts), at least for me, seems to make my digestive function a lot happier than eating real meat. But I guess happier doesn’t say much about what’s actually going on down there.
https://rupress.org/jem/article/209/13/2395/40998
They're specifically talking about foods which are claimed to be meat replacements.
If you have an all-encompassing and well varied vegan diet then this study doesn't really say anything about your situation
What is not? I started my second paragraph asking what in plant based meat, in that regard, is causing the difference vs eating plants…
B) group 1 gets an omnivore diet, group 2 gets a vegan diet
those are two different experiments
> Meat and plant-based meat analogue diets were prepared as follows: Firstly, all visible fat and connective tissue were removed. Pork or beef muscles were cut into smaller sizes that were visibly similar to plant-based meats. Secondly, the samples were freeze-dried and ground to a powder. All the resulting powders were passed through a 25-mesh sieve. Thirdly, the content of the main components of the freeze-dried meat powder were determined and shown in Table S1. Fourthly, the nutritionally balanced semi-synthetic AIN-93M formula2 was used as reference and the ingredients in it were replaced by meat or meat analogues according to the results of the determination. The protein in the diet is derived entirely from meat or plant-based meat analogues. Finally, the granule and purified type diets were prepared by Trophic Animal Feed High-tech Co., Ltd., China. The ingredient composition and nutritional content of diets were shown in Tables S2 and Tables S3. Except for the higher sodium, fiber, or fat content in plant-based meat analogues that cannot be fully balanced based on the protein content, various other nutrients are present in equal amounts in real meat and plant-based meat analogue diets.
I do not eat beef, but I do eat venison and bison but mostly seafood. I feel much better now.
To put it more blunt: article is testing vegan/vegetarian junkfood. That says something about vegan/vegetarian junkfood. Not meat. Not unprocessed vegetables.
For who? Everyone?
Here’s the thing eating red meat is normal, vegetarians are generally more concerned with their health and do a lot of other healthy things.
I do not doubt that there is some level of red meat consumption that does not have a statistically significant impact on ACM.
The protein and fat and meet may take longer to digest, but that doesn’t mean it’s “harder” to digest. Saying it is harder to digest implies that this is a problem. It’s not a problem, it’s just different.
This is like running a study on safety equipment and concluding that "Elbow Pads inhibit inflammation response in Skateboarders" (because they don't skin their elbows!).
Meh. I'll wait for more real science here. But this seems incredibly spun, especially given the researcher's employer identities.
So there is definitely adaptation going on, and it's not at all necessarily pathological, but very likely beneficial.
> Key Laboratory of Meat Processing and Quality Control, MOE, Key Laboratory of Meat Processing, MARA, Jiangsu Innovative Center of Meat Production, Processing and Quality Control, College of Food Science and Technology, Nanjing Agricultural University, Nanjing 210095, China
I'm not saying the study is wrong. It's likely right! I just think it's going to be an interesting decade as meat producers apparently now recognise meat alternatives as an existential threat.
I'm personally a vegetarian, but I can't stand the government interference in food, I sympathise with meat eaters. I hear of farmers having to keep cows in sheds to protect orchids, and other nonsense. (As if it is a kindness to do this to cows, and feed them grains, etc.) Obviously this is a prelude to making meat a scarce product, cows being dangerous to the environment apparently, so people will be forced to eat artificial, human-designed, frankenfoods.
I don't think we can even conceive of the diseases and behavioural issues that a non-natural diet will cause. They aren't going to be positive though :(
Loads of cultures have good plant based foods and dishes. It’s only when I started living in a western country did I experience the bizarre need to make meat analogues. Just cook vegetables better.
Funny, because I'm a meat eater and I can't stand the government interference in making meat artificially cheap through subsidies when it is clearly the immoral and environment-hurting food option.
It's already beginning. This is what the farmer protests (barely covered in the US) in the Netherlands are about. Their government is forcing thousands of cattle farms out of business.
> Obviously this is a prelude to making meat a scarce product, cows being dangerous to the environment apparently, so people will be forced to eat artificial, human-designed, frankenfoods
I've seen this conspiracy mentioned before on the internet, can you give me a good source that led you to believe this?
I can't imagine any reasonable world where there would be any real political will for a government to mandate the replacement of meat.
I could imagine subsides similar to what the meat production industry already receives, but I can't imagine any mandates.
I could also imagine the occasional far left politician call for that some level of reduction in meat production, but I don't believe the US government would ever have the will to force people to eat meat alternatives
What gives you the impression that we live in a reasonable world?
Sounds more like the government intervention here is actually to protect wild flowers. The farmer in this story has then concluded it's easier/cheaper to do that by keeping the cows in the shed than to fence off the field.
Going for a walk in the countryside near me, you know, in the real world, cows are often outside in fenced fields.
At least current processed meat is usually more "Frankenfood" and comes with more unnatural additions then plant-based alternatives like e.g. Beyond Meat?
Alternatively, processed meats are just as much 'Frankenfoods'.
In fact, the way the summary reads to me, it seems like they may just be cleverly restating that real meat is harder to digest.
I tolerate dairy well, although I only drink small amounts of sweet milk and cream, eating mostly yogurt and cheese. I like to make strained yogurt / labneh, and I'll drink the whey by itself (I like pickle and sauerkraut juice as well).
But when I add whey powder to a shake for the gainz, my stomach really doesn't like that as much. It doesn't cause problems or I wouldn't eat it, but it's just a bit gassy and sometimes irritating.
I've noticed much the same thing with the pea-protein based vegan meats. I believe it's difficult to extract proteins without denaturing them somewhat, collagen is an exception but not a vegan one.
I like eating peas just fine, peas don't give me gas and lentils rarely do (that's it for me and pulses these days), but the extracted protein, not so much, doesn't sit right.
I've tried to pin it down or at least mitigate it. It seems that emulsifiers + fats help (which is odd, as proteins themselves are often emulsifiers). My two theories are a) there are more free amino acids/oligopeptides, and some are naturally irritating, or b) these protein powders are more likely to crash out in the stomach.
Whey has a trace of protein in it (like 1%). Powders are mostly protein.
Unprocessed peas are around 5% protein, meat substitutes are more like 50%.
I can and do eat six eggs, or a 300gm steak, or a half liter of yogurt, in one sitting.
All of these are readily digested. They also have fat, and buffing a yogurt shake with whey protein pushes the balance toward protein, sure. But strictly volume of protein doesn't hold up.
Regarding peas and lentils: they have a ton of fiber when eaten whole. That makes a big difference.
The human body changes at slower pace than our diet in the last 60 years. Transforming food by cooking, curing, salting, smoking, grinding and fermenting has been around for thousands of years and we have adapted to it.
Eating food deconstructed and isolated is somewhat new invention.
And the second is - with processed and refined stuff it is easier to OD. 20 grams of whey protein is probably the amount of protein you get from couple of liters of milk or a kilogram of milk. And we usually have consumed both casein and whey together.
Peanut is very high too.
https://peterattiamd.com/donlayman/
I really learned this following life extension research. It’s never been a better time to be an aging mouse but for humans the progress is much slower.
From: What is ultra-processed food? https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/what_is_ultra-processed_...
> Ultra-processed foods usually contain ingredients that you wouldn’t add when cooking homemade food. You may not recognise the names of these ingredients as many will be chemicals, colourings, sweeteners and preservatives.
> More surprising to some will be...“other ultra-processed foods”. This includes baked beans, tinned soups, meat alternatives, soy and drinks used as dairy milk substitutes.
> It can be tricky to identify food that has been ultra-processed because in some cases the same type of food could be minimally processed, processed or ultra-processed, depending on how it’s been made. For example: Bread made from wheat flour, water, salt and yeast is processed, but add emulsifiers or colourings and it becomes ultra-processed.
(My emphasis)
When >50% of Olympic athletes with their optimised fitness plans are vegetarian/vegan, then you'll know it makes sense.
Meanwhile the statistics are all over the place.
I've personally done as much "de-modernization" as possible in my life and tried to revert to as close of a pre-industrial lifestyle and inputs as I can.