If you want to give us something more substantive about Nietzsche, I'm all in favor - but please don't just post dyspeptic dismissals. Even if the article is as bad as you say, if that is all you have to say, it only degrades the forum. Better to remember that everything is basically crap and not say anything.
(p.s. I think John Gray is a tad overrated but at least his topics are interesting, and 'disgusting and mean spirited' doesn't track the article as I read it)
I might try. The article is indeed well written, but seems to confuse Nietzsche's biography with Nietzsche's ideas. In literature and philosophy it's good to know biography to better understand where thoughts might have come from, but thoughts must be taken by themselves ultimately. That seems to be the error of the people who wrote Nietzsche's biographies too. Countering arguments with personal life isn't worth much.
Are you into Humanities, dang? What is your target about John Gray? Maybe Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals?
I did not know LSE's John Gray was so "famous" - I would have thought the homonymous proponent of the "Mars and Venus" ideas could came to mind earlier!
I can see (or rather guess) why you’re saying this.
1. The author buys the story that Nietzsche contracted syphilis in a brothel. No evidence exists for this claim. Syphilis isn’t even consistent with the symptoms Nietzsche was experiencing. The claim was first brought forth in a book 30+ years after Nietzsche’s death, and at a time where his philosophy have been instrumentalized by the Nazis.
2. This quote, which is itself dismissive (and, I may claim, very wrong):
> If you want solutions to the disorder of our time, you will gain little from reading Nietzsche.
That indeed seems to apply much more to this article.
You have guessed correctly. I'm sorry if I did not take the time initially to expand.
I would also add this whole spicy philosophical gossip about Nietzsche being hopelessly lovestruck by this person Salome is not supported by strong evidence. All accounts of it has been exaggerated and, as it is often with historical figures, repeated long enough that people believe it to be canonical [1].
The Salome myth, is often used, as it was in this article, to cast aspersions against his character and by extension his philosophy.
Most of the article it is just a big list of unsubstantiated ad-hominem attacks against him. The author claims insight into Nietzsche's most private moments and thoughts without evidence to support those claims.
I used to have this image in my head about Nietzsche as well. Disgruntled proto-Nazi, who failed with women and, out of spite, dreamt up the uber-man.
Then I read the man himself.
I actually think Nietzsche has excellent insights into the kind of problems that our time, especially, keeps bringing up to the surface. For instance, regarding dismissiveness, he said:
“What you cannot love, that you shall pass by.”
So I hope nobody listens to John Gray, and those curious will read what Nietzsche actually wrote, and what he meant.
> If you want solutions to the disorder of our time, you will gain little from reading Nietzsche. Yet there is much to be learned about the sources of the West’s decline from the struggles of this unbelieving Christian, who found in ancient Greece a tragic vision that he spent his life struggling vainly to escape.
If we read it at face value I'd agree with the author, he doesn't provide very many (useful) solutions. What he does do however is describe the problems in clear and cutting language.
But I'd also agree that the author has a little bit of hostility. From my experience anyone who's religious or progressive takes this same stance towards him, probably because he makes a joke out of their life's mission
Well. I think Nietzsche provides a helluvalot of solutions. And precisely to many of the disorders of our time.
Couple examples:
> Out of life's school of war - what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.
Applies to muscle building and investing, among many other things. How much of today's self-help literature can be traced back to this idea?
> Free, dost thou call thyself? Thy ruling thought would I hear of, and not that thou hast escaped from a yoke. Art thou one ENTITLED to escape from a yoke? Many a one hath cast away his final worth when he hath cast away his servitude. Free from what? What doth that matter to Zarathustra! Clearly, however, shall thine eye show unto me: free FOR WHAT?
That one thought alone is dynamite. It is packed with answers to many of the most pressing problems of our time:
Nihilism, people feeling lost, numbing themselves with consumerism and getting addicted to social media. Why? Because they are free, but they have no purpose for that freedom.
Advertising and gamification. You can give people the illusion of being "free". And it's true: Nobody is holding a whip. Yet what is much more powerful than the whip is positive reinforcement. People are free to do what they want. But they are not free to want what they want. Because, with people lacking a "will" of their own, businesses will harness the power to make people want what's in the business's interest.
> Most people are too preoccupied with themselves to be evil.
How easy is it to get enraged about something someone else did. How easy is it to explain their behavior in terms of them being an "evil person". But how often is that actually true? Also, once you remind yourself of this insight (and it is necessary to remind oneself, because the attribution to an "evil character" otherwise happens reflexively), you are in a much better position to diffuse the conflict.
Remember the Cuban missle crisis, and McNamara's rule #1: Empathize with your enemy. Figure out what he wants.
Remember also Nixon. Remember his "evil empire" speech, and what almost happened in 1983 (see the post on HN about "Able Archer" recently). It was only once Nixon put himself in the shoes of Russia that both parties were able to stop the arms race.
The idea that some people are just "evil" is a kindergarten teacher's tale. And yet it still dominates our mainstream media, and is exploited for clicks on the internet.
I just cherry picked these quotes. There are hundreds of them. And there are many more between the lines in Nietzsche's works. If these are not solutions to the disorders of our time, I do not know what else.
I watched this my friend, we just sat in silence for hours, we both burst into laughter when it ended, "uhhhhh", very memorable. I do and don't recommend it to others.
I just moved to Turin and I just want to say that is an absolutely beautiful city. Is you ever are in Italy, it might not be part of any “top 10 places to see in Italy” posts, but it’s worth.
Amazing food (Piedmontese food + Savoie food from the neighboring France region), beautiful mountains, amazing people (Politecnico of Torino is huge), and great wine as well (Barolo, timorasso).
The marvels of the place are not in "if it's Tuesday this must be Belgium" stumble-upon sights. It is more about things you will find after luck or investigation.
Awesome! What do you do? I’m trying to find some programming/data science groups/meetups but it’s being hard so far. Social stuff is great tho! I already found an Ultimate team.
No, I moved because I like Italy and this is a great city to live in (a multi variable analysis I made).
If you have any Italian ancestor, you might be able to claim your Italian citizenship. I think there are some “entrepreneurial visas”, but I’m really not sure.
It has an atmosphere and architectural style unlike any other Italian city. It's definitely one of my favorites, though I might be biased because I'm from one of the neighboring villages (and I'm probably gonna move in the city soon).
AFAIK it is unclear whether the Turin horse scene actually happened.
The description is actually suspiciously similar to a scene in Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment, which Nietzsche had read.
The Turin horse episode, on the other hand, apparently (and I don’t remember where I read this) goes back to an account first published by the contemporary writer Alain de Botton. And all there seems to be in terms of evidence is a story written by an unnamed journalist in 1901, almost a decade after the event supposedly had taken place.
Read Nietzsche for the first time this year. Genealogy of Morals
transfixed me with its brilliance and settled lifelong questions. A singular intellect cutting through time like hot knife through butter.
The interesting thing about Nietzsche isn't just what he wrote, but how people respond to him.
It's incredibly hard to read him and look at religion (or anything that appeals to that impulse) the same sort of way. I've yet to see a Christian who both likes him and is familiar with him.
35 comments
[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 85.2 ms ] threadhttps://web.archive.org/web/20220814082220/https://www.newst...
PS
I really don't see what you find objectionable in this rather boring article.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
If you want to give us something more substantive about Nietzsche, I'm all in favor - but please don't just post dyspeptic dismissals. Even if the article is as bad as you say, if that is all you have to say, it only degrades the forum. Better to remember that everything is basically crap and not say anything.
(p.s. I think John Gray is a tad overrated but at least his topics are interesting, and 'disgusting and mean spirited' doesn't track the article as I read it)
Are you into Humanities, dang? What is your target about John Gray? Maybe Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals?
I did not know LSE's John Gray was so "famous" - I would have thought the homonymous proponent of the "Mars and Venus" ideas could came to mind earlier!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33201562
1. The author buys the story that Nietzsche contracted syphilis in a brothel. No evidence exists for this claim. Syphilis isn’t even consistent with the symptoms Nietzsche was experiencing. The claim was first brought forth in a book 30+ years after Nietzsche’s death, and at a time where his philosophy have been instrumentalized by the Nazis.
2. This quote, which is itself dismissive (and, I may claim, very wrong):
> If you want solutions to the disorder of our time, you will gain little from reading Nietzsche.
That indeed seems to apply much more to this article.
I would also add this whole spicy philosophical gossip about Nietzsche being hopelessly lovestruck by this person Salome is not supported by strong evidence. All accounts of it has been exaggerated and, as it is often with historical figures, repeated long enough that people believe it to be canonical [1].
The Salome myth, is often used, as it was in this article, to cast aspersions against his character and by extension his philosophy.
Most of the article it is just a big list of unsubstantiated ad-hominem attacks against him. The author claims insight into Nietzsche's most private moments and thoughts without evidence to support those claims.
1- https://paradoxoftheday.com/friedrich-nietzsche-and-lou-von-...
I used to have this image in my head about Nietzsche as well. Disgruntled proto-Nazi, who failed with women and, out of spite, dreamt up the uber-man.
Then I read the man himself.
I actually think Nietzsche has excellent insights into the kind of problems that our time, especially, keeps bringing up to the surface. For instance, regarding dismissiveness, he said:
“What you cannot love, that you shall pass by.”
So I hope nobody listens to John Gray, and those curious will read what Nietzsche actually wrote, and what he meant.
> If you want solutions to the disorder of our time, you will gain little from reading Nietzsche. Yet there is much to be learned about the sources of the West’s decline from the struggles of this unbelieving Christian, who found in ancient Greece a tragic vision that he spent his life struggling vainly to escape.
If we read it at face value I'd agree with the author, he doesn't provide very many (useful) solutions. What he does do however is describe the problems in clear and cutting language.
But I'd also agree that the author has a little bit of hostility. From my experience anyone who's religious or progressive takes this same stance towards him, probably because he makes a joke out of their life's mission
Couple examples:
> Out of life's school of war - what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.
Applies to muscle building and investing, among many other things. How much of today's self-help literature can be traced back to this idea?
> Free, dost thou call thyself? Thy ruling thought would I hear of, and not that thou hast escaped from a yoke. Art thou one ENTITLED to escape from a yoke? Many a one hath cast away his final worth when he hath cast away his servitude. Free from what? What doth that matter to Zarathustra! Clearly, however, shall thine eye show unto me: free FOR WHAT?
That one thought alone is dynamite. It is packed with answers to many of the most pressing problems of our time:
Nihilism, people feeling lost, numbing themselves with consumerism and getting addicted to social media. Why? Because they are free, but they have no purpose for that freedom.
Advertising and gamification. You can give people the illusion of being "free". And it's true: Nobody is holding a whip. Yet what is much more powerful than the whip is positive reinforcement. People are free to do what they want. But they are not free to want what they want. Because, with people lacking a "will" of their own, businesses will harness the power to make people want what's in the business's interest.
> Most people are too preoccupied with themselves to be evil.
How easy is it to get enraged about something someone else did. How easy is it to explain their behavior in terms of them being an "evil person". But how often is that actually true? Also, once you remind yourself of this insight (and it is necessary to remind oneself, because the attribution to an "evil character" otherwise happens reflexively), you are in a much better position to diffuse the conflict.
Remember the Cuban missle crisis, and McNamara's rule #1: Empathize with your enemy. Figure out what he wants.
Remember also Nixon. Remember his "evil empire" speech, and what almost happened in 1983 (see the post on HN about "Able Archer" recently). It was only once Nixon put himself in the shoes of Russia that both parties were able to stop the arms race.
The idea that some people are just "evil" is a kindergarten teacher's tale. And yet it still dominates our mainstream media, and is exploited for clicks on the internet.
I just cherry picked these quotes. There are hundreds of them. And there are many more between the lines in Nietzsche's works. If these are not solutions to the disorders of our time, I do not know what else.
I do agree that Nietzsche is treated in a very unfair manner today, and people have a lot to gain by engaging with his content.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turin_Horse
Amazing food (Piedmontese food + Savoie food from the neighboring France region), beautiful mountains, amazing people (Politecnico of Torino is huge), and great wine as well (Barolo, timorasso).
I’d love to make that move but AFAIK Italy doesn’t have a “digital nomad” visa like many other countries now have.
If you have any Italian ancestor, you might be able to claim your Italian citizenship. I think there are some “entrepreneurial visas”, but I’m really not sure.
The description is actually suspiciously similar to a scene in Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment, which Nietzsche had read.
The Turin horse episode, on the other hand, apparently (and I don’t remember where I read this) goes back to an account first published by the contemporary writer Alain de Botton. And all there seems to be in terms of evidence is a story written by an unnamed journalist in 1901, almost a decade after the event supposedly had taken place.
I wouldn't call it good, but it certainly is interesting.
It's incredibly hard to read him and look at religion (or anything that appeals to that impulse) the same sort of way. I've yet to see a Christian who both likes him and is familiar with him.