Ask HN: Recovered insomniacs of HN please give me some advice

Have you tried embracing your own natural schedule? Go ahead and sleep when you are tired, then get up and work (or play or live life in general) when you are alert. Live your own routine, don't force yourself into someone else's.

There are two easy physiological causes of insomnia that you can cross off with medical testing.

Iron deficiency: can cause restless leg syndrome making sleep difficult. Can be checked with a blood test, and cured with iron supplements. This is what was keeping my daughter from sleeping.

Sleep apnea: not just for old fat men. Under diagnosed and exceedingly common. Can be diagnosed with a sleep study and "cured" with a CPAP machine. This is what was keeping me from sleeping. Most doctors are really ignorant about it. My mother and my father in law both audibly stop breathing in their sleep and snore loudly, but both their doctors told them they couldnt have apnea. In my mother's case, it's because she was "too cheerful".

Not saying you have either of these things, but physiological causes are often missed by doctors, especially PCPs, whose only job I can see is to collect copays and inconvenience people. Rule them out because it's easy to do, and if either is a factor, folk remedies won't do shit.

no coffee, melatonin to go to sleep (2/3 hours before), l-theanine, magnesium, no light exposure at all 3hours before, kindle for reading, always waking up, no eating 2-3 hours before going to sleep.

but

you will always go back to your natural chronotype, so embrace it and try to arrange your life around it. Go to sleep when you are tired and that's it (don't get hooked on cheap entertainment)

I heard a bit on a podcast over the weekend that amounted to: put your mind on a Paleo diet (so to speak).

Dial down your brain prior to sleep (i.e., put down your handheld device, less light, less noise, etc.). Try to mimic the environment of your predecessors.

Along the same lines, eat well (e.g., less caffeine), get some exercise, etc. A healthy you helps you get a healthy sleep.

Summary: Waking time is more important than sleeping time. You need a stress-free lifestyle with fixed routines that you follow with discipline, to fix any disruption in your sleep cycle. Eat on time. Exercise

Some research I've done on this subject that may help you:

Why do we sleep?

Our body needs sleep to rest, recuperate and do general maintenance internally on many of our organs. A good sleep thus reduces the wear and tear of our organs and makes us healthier, as our body gets some time to replace the damaged or dead cells. Another very important function is to allow the brain some much needed rest, by "hibernating" parts of it. This helps in regulating emotions (allowing you have to better control over your emotions) and also with improving memory. The brain consumes a lot of energy and thus also produces a lot of waste - so "cleaning" of the brain is also an essential function. Apparently brain cells shrink when you sleep, thus creating gaps in the brain tissues that allow more fluids to enter it and clean the waste by-product away (studies show that patients with Parkinsons and Alzheimer have brains with more "waste" than the average healthy individual).

So if you don't get a good sleep, you will feel tired, lethargic, less alert and more emotional. If this persists in the long-term (months / years), you will actually cause physical damage to your body at the cellular level, which can progress into your organs not functioning optimally.

Why can't we sleep?

Physical health issues can cause us to have a restless sleep (@schwartzworld has described some of them - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33315140 ). Mental health issues too can cause us to lose sleep or oversleep - this can be something as common as stress, depression or anxiety, or something more serious like addiction or personality disorders - all of which can degenerate into unhealthy lifestyles causing sleeping disorders. A sedentary lifestyle with few physical activities also results in poor sleep. The weather too can interfere and disrupt your sleep.

Is sleeping too much also unhealthy?

Yes. Prolonged oversleeping can cause many disease like diabetes, obesity, heart issues, depression etc.

How can I improve my sleep hygiene?

If you don't feel rested or your sleep cycle is disrupted for some reason, first consult a doctor and rule out any physical and mental health issues. (Tip for mental health issues: if you are suffering from stress, mild depression or anxiety, I highly recommend the book "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" by Dr. David D Burns, to learn some self-help cognitive therapy). If you have a mildly dysfunctional lifestyle, start by creating and following a fixed routine (with set waking and sleeping time) with lot of activities in the day. Make sure the activities don't spill over to your sleep time. Ensure that exercising daily - even something as just 10-15 minutes of walking the neighbourhood or to a store - is part of your daily activities. If you are not able to fix and follow a routine, consider getting professional help from a therapist.)

If you don't have physical and mental health issues, figure out how much sleep you need to feel well-rested (this will vary between individuals, but is usually between 6 to 8 hours for most adults. Seniors (60+) tend to need less sleep as they age - an indian President mentioned in one of his book that he only slept 3-4 hours by the time he was 80+). Based on how much sleep you need, fix a time to wake up (anywhere between 5:00 AM to 8:00 AM) and sleep (anytime after sunset or after 9 PM).

An important thing to remember here is - If you want to sleep early, you have to wake up early. So don't waste your energy focusing on when you sleep, but rather focus on when you get up.

So to begin with, force yourself to wake-up every day in the morning...

I figured out my sleeping problem was stress/anxiety.

I would be thinking about whatever argument I had had that day, or perhaps something I was dreading about tomorrow.

I took up reading before bed (fiction! Don't try to be productive by reading textbooks!). Focussing on a story for 20-30 minutes really helps me cache-evict all the stressors that keep me awake.

I also stopped programming after around 8pm or so. If I programmed later than that I'd still feel wired at bed time.

I'm also trying spending a little more time in single-player games rather than multiplayer. There's something about constant racial slurs over chat, mic spam and general toxicity - it seeps into my mood and I wish I'd realised it earlier.

See here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16955910

I believe that for many people biphasic (interrupted) sleep is natural. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep#.... I think I used to sleep for more like 6-8 hours but these days I always wake up after around 4 hours and then answer messages or look up random things for an hour or so and then go back to sleep for another 3-4 hours.

I suspect part of it might be that I have to urinate more or something so don't stay asleep.But maybe it's just natural.

One other obvious thing is caffeine. It can keep you awake for like 12 hours or more even if you aren't otherwise feeling particularly stimulated anymore.

But it sounds quite serious so I think you should get some specialist medical help if those things don't resolve it.

have a kid. they will force your schedule to change. worked for me

I do a lot of the typical "self care" things: I wake up early (430-520am), go to the gym most mornings, read at home some mornings (standing, in my case), eat healthy, no alcohol, etc.

Things I pay attention to when I realize my sleep isn't awesome:

* I meditate twice a day, if even for 5 minutes. Usually 10-15 minutes.

* I start my "going to bed" routing a bit early... usually around 8pm if I want to be in bed by 9 or 930pm. I consciously disrupt ruminative thoughts during this: no thinking about work, no negative self-talk, no circular thinking. Wash dishes slowly, put things away, tidy up the house, etc.

* I have a few playlists programmed in Alexa for bedtime: piano sleep, Max Richter sleep, Dustin O'Halloran sleep. I rotate each night.

* If I'm really bothered or restless, I'll listen to a yoga nidra bedtime recording. Sometimes a voice & words will do the trick and quiet my mind.

* There are some "bedtime yoga" routines on Youtube that I've found helpful. I find it best to do it before trying to go to bed -- I do this when I sense I'm a little wound up.

* If I'm really, really still restless, I consciously disrupt my thoughts and count my breaths to 40. I start with deep breaths and then let them normalize into longer, but regular breaths. I never really make it to 40, I'm not sure I even make it to 20.

Thing is, I don't really have to do this very often. Good sleep kind of builds on itself, especially if you find the habitual routines and stick with it.

Do you like dogs? I never slept well in my life until I got my pup. She’s a great snuggler, and keeps me active in all the ways that make me naturally tired at a consistent time.

I'm mostly a late-night person. My sleep rhythm has shifted about an hour or so earlier after I decided not to use any artificial lighting in the evening. Not just avoiding blue lights -- I don't use any lights in my room at all (except a very dim one when absolutely needed).

Of course, I still have a bright light source from my computer screen, but avoiding using other lights in my room did help.

I guess it also depends on where you live, sometimes natural lighting can be counter-productive if you live in high latitudes (not an issue for me), in which case maybe sth like "no lights after 6pm" might help.

As I said, it only shifted my biological clock for maybe an hour or so, which is a significant change but isn't a panacea.

Hope it helps.

I basically didn't have a decent nights sleep until I discovered melatonin at 20, I would go to bed at midnight or 11pm and not fall asleep until 4am, but melatonin wasn't enough and only took the edge off. Here is the process that worked for me after trying many things.

I went in two phases, the first phase lasted about 10 years and was managing my insomnia.

Phase 1. Decrease bluelight, get moderate exercise during the day, don't watch tv after 10pm, fast low dose chewable melatonin taken an hour before bed and reading a boring (really, just find a good story you know you like but have already read before, something with a low enough reading level that you can read it even when semi awake) but easy to read book on my OLED phone screen (in bed with lights off.) Find an e-reader like fbreader, make the background black and the font color dark amber and turn the brightness down until you can barely make out the letters. I ended up landing on harry potter books, their prose is easy to read even when nearly asleep, half the time I would fall asleep with my device in my bed. This was 80-95% effective and was my equilibrium state for over a decade, not perfect but good enough unless I was very stressed.

Phase 2. Same as above but add a legal d9 gummy, I use hometown heroes idica and take a half to a quarter gummy when I take melatonin, after doing this nightly for about 3 months I stopped and now take a gummy every two weeks or so to reset any sleep drift but for the first time in my life my sleep schedule is successfully shifted to an earlier bed time. THC seems to suppress REM sleep cycles so you're less likely to wake in the middle of the night, make sure you don't drink before bedtime either, maximum you can do maybe a single serving of wine at least an hour before bed or not at all. If you have relied on alcohol for sleep for any amount of time the approach mentioned about will still work but you may have to tetotal for ~3 months.

Different people respond in different ways to d9, find a configuration/dose/strain that "couch locks" you. Weed has a negative effect on my cognition the next day so I only take it on Friday and/or Saturday night now once every 2 weeks or month just depending on the amount of sleep drift.

There is a lot of good advice in this thread and I strongly recommend trying that advice before trying what works for me.

BUT, I had trouble getting to sleep my whole life and for about the last 7 years I've been able to get to sleep in much more normal timeframe. After trying most of the other things in this thread (cutting caffeine definitely helped). Two things that have seemed to really work for me:

I have a 7" tablet on my bed and I put on the SAME EPISODE of the SAME tv show each night (currently Psych S4 E1 - though it does change occasionally). I keep the volume low enough to not really hear unless I'm trying to listen to it and the brightness at almost the lowest setting. This is contrary to most advice on the subject and I write it here not to recommend it as a first choice. It is however what seems to work for me when other things didn't. The goal with the content is something that the plot doesn't matter and that you know like the back of your hand so it won't keep you awake to find out what happens BUT it's enough stimulus to pull your attention from your anxieties.

I added a ton of pillows to my bed (11 total). I put 3 on top of my body like a weighted blanket and have pillows to hug on either side of me. I can change to several different sleeping positions without significant pillow re-arrangement.

I was an insomniac from the ages of 6 through 30. I would often find myself up until the crack of dawn, even if I was desperate for rest. The usual cycle of trying to fall asleep, being unable to, stressing about being unable to, with the stress now making it harder to fall asleep, seemed impossible to break out of.

One day, I realized that the issue, for me, was one of perspective.

What is the purpose of going to bed at night? In the end, if I just felt more rested than when I got into it, that at least would be an improvement over a sleepless night spent trying to go to bed.

I began doing breath awareness meditation at night. I figured that in the worst case, if I was truly unable to fall asleep the whole night, that 6-8 hours of meditation would certainly leave me feeling far better rested than when I got into bed.

In reality, what happened instead after a few nights is that I would drift off to sleep within 30 minutes, and have not been an insomniac since.

I felt the same as you OP, and I just kept calibrating those recommendations until I found the magic formula of exercise, schedule, etc. It took like, 10 years though. It sucks but keep trying. My breakthrough came from upping the exercise (6x per week, vigorously, even on vacation), taking a very small dose of melatonin, and listening to podcasts when in bed which seems to quiet my racing thoughts. Things are mostly good now.

Paradoxically, it’s hard for me to sleep when I haven’t been sleeping well. So these days I am gentle with myself if I can’t fall asleep despite being tired.

Buy an eyepatch that can completely seal off any light. Not the cheap one from walmart but ones with thick padding at the edge. You can get them from Amazon. Those can completely seal off light even in a well-lit room. Studies have shown that even low ambient light can affect sleep.

I can only share what worked for me, but I'm guessing there'll be a large amount of overlap with what you've already tried and what others have suggested. This worked 100% for me:

- Giving up alcohol completely.

- Losing weight, from 215lbs to about 165.

- Avoiding caffeine after 2pm -- others are more sensitive though, so you might have to nuke it entirely.

- Started taking an SSRI. Obviously this is not a sleep protocol, but I'm convinced it helped me. My mind is no longer spinning with anxious thoughts when I'm in bed.

- Avoiding drinking fluids at night. My bladder is championship-level, and I almost never have to get up in the night to urinate, but it can disrupt your sleep even if you don't get up.

My dad has a lot more trouble sleeping than I did, and he's been having a much better time sleeping since taking some supplements that Dr. Andrew Huberman suggested on one of his podcasts. Look up his episodes on sleep. I'll look up the supplements later, when I'm home.

CBT-I worked for me. The key for this to work (as with all CBT) is to actually do the exercises given and not just read it/try to do it in your head. Good luck.

If your biology is highly tuned to an unusual sleeping schedule that doesn't mesh with society's norm, perhaps you should try and design your life accordingly by doing things like seeking out jobs that have flexible schedules and looking for a house with an isolated home office so you can go and be productive without bothering a significant other.

Have you tried sleep CBT? Data says its the strongest intervention (set of interventions really) and it’s checked out for me. I had insomnia and it’s straight up gone (probably not as bad as your though). You should pay special attention to the sleep restriction bit, which seems most important.

Here's what used to work for me, if you do all of that at the same time you'd probably be fighting to stay awake after 10PM

-as few stimulants as possible, the optimal amount being exactly 0(no nicotine, no caffeine)

-no eating a few hours before sleep

-working out in the morning/afternoon(lifting and cardio)

-melatonin before sleep

-blue light glasses

-night mode on all my devices(warmer colors or even just devices turning off automatically)

-complete darkness and no distracting noises

-cold room, I've seen some people recommend 16°

-orgasms every evening

-mindful meditation before sleep

-no alcohol

-earplugs or relaxing binaural beats in comfortable earphones when trying to sleep and an eye mask

-the best bed/blankets/pillow you can buy

-a relaxing shower/bath

-a short walk in nature in the evening

I also used to take a bunch of supplements and very good food, and while it wasn't aimed at improving my sleep it probably improved my health/wellbeing which indirectly improved my sleep

If nothing works then indica weed, vaped or in edibles taken a few hours before going to bed lol

Your story sounds like mine: my earliest memories involve not being able to sleep. I found out later it runs on my father’s side of the family. Bad news is, if you’re a primary chronic insomniac like me, you will never “recover”. The best you can do is cope. That said, the best advice I ever received came from a neurologist who wrote textbooks on the subject: limit your time in bed to 7.5 hours, regardless of how much you sleep. That, in combination with meds (which I have to rotate because of desensitization), made me sleepy at night for the very first time in my life. Pleasant dreams!