Ask HN: How do we convince all hotels to just provide free WiFi, no passwords?

26 points by breck ↗ HN
I swear to god, the better the hotel, the worse the wifi.

If there's any kind of popup modal—they're doing it wrong. If there's any kind of pasword—they're doing it wrong.

If you are a startup that things you are "helping" hotels by helping them monetize their wifi or something, please pivot.

How do we spread the word?

93 comments

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Why do hotels not do this already?
Why are drinks more expensive at a stadium or in a 20 oz bottle at a gas station? A mix of captive audience, no other options, and convenience (sprinkle in business travel/expensing).
Depending where you are, its illegal. For example in France, if you dont keep a register of whoever used your wi-fi, you are in breach of anti-terrorist norms.
I haven't been to France in a while. Is this actually enforced in any meaningful way? Like, you can't go to Starbucks or a shopping center and use their wifi without some kind of identity verification? How does that practically work?
I imagine they just use their super cheap cellular data plans.
Yes. However, at some places, like inside some buildings, you have a good wifi but very bad mobile network reception.

In high speed trains the wifi might also be stabler than your phone because the system behind the wifi is designed to work with the high speed you are moving at.

My experience with train wifi is that the wifi signal is great but beyond the portal nothing else works.
I regularly take the train. I've had good experiences most of the times, and catastrophic experiences some of the times. It depends on the location, also. Some lines are better served.

This is not something you can rely on however. Take it as a bonus if it works.

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It's fairly simple; there is a captive portal where you have to enter your phone number, phone number that ends up being validated by sms.

and yes its actually surprinsingly enforced. I remember reading an article a few months ago where café's owners had to pay hefty fines for not implementing those "safety" measures.

>>> Depending where you are, its illegal. For example in France, if you dont keep a register of whoever used your wi-fi, you are in breach of anti-terrorist norms.

> It's fairly simple; there is a captive portal where you have to enter your phone number, phone number that ends up being validated by sms.

They have similar requirements in China, and they do exactly the same thing there.

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What about people who don't own a phone?
More government pressure to require you to carry a tracking device.
Yes because without government pressure the 92% of the worlds population wouldn’t have cell phones.
Usually, captive portals make you enter your name and your email address. Many times, you can just put garbage, click ok and you have your internet access. There's no email verification in many places.

Some wifi access points (like the ones from cities) make you create an account though.

How would you verify your email address while you're trying to get wifi access if you don't have wifi access?
Yes.

(more seriously, they could make it very annoying until you verify, like let you connect for a few minutes only, or at very low speed. Still, yes, and I guess this is a major reason why they don't make people verify their email address)

Sounds like this law makes it much easier to frame people than planting drugs and calling the cops. /s
Funny, anti-terrorism to track everyone using wifi, yet known subjects have done repeated attacks all without using wifi.
Some captive portals require a password, but all seem to require acceptance of their ToS.

Is there any precedence that a provider of open Wifi is absolved of any responsibility for nefarious activities by end-users when their ToS is agreed to?

It's very rare, but nevertheless the kind of thing that corporate legal teams worry about. That said, there are lower-friction ways to deliver these terms - include them in your check-in paperwork, post them visibly in a public space - but that requires a legal team which cares about reducing user sign-up friction.
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Most hotels are small businesses. Business ISPs are expensive for the amount of bandwidth that then needs to be shared across rooms. They need ways to limit who is accessing it.

The more expensive the hotel, the more likely the customer is business traveler and can expense the cost or won’t be too inconvenienced by add-on charges.

Hotels in the US seem to play this "corporate expense" BS with wifi, but it's rare to see it outside the US

As if my boss would be happy to have another thing to expense, lol no. And guess what, you just kicked other potential customers from your hotel

And share their bandwidth with any of the surrounding businesses/individuals who don't want to pay for their own?
I never use WiFi when I am in a hotel because I am most likely traveling and want to go outside and have fun / explore, not browse the Internet in my room.
Same - besides 4g/5g coverage is excellent in European countries, where I mostly travel.
I see you're not a business traveler who needs to complete documentation after dinner, going places with small kiddos who may benefit from some distraction while you're getting ready in the morning, or wanting to keep up with your favorite series on Starz before bed ;)
Don’t stay at hotels then, only stay at airbnbs/vrbos that have good wifi.
That's probably actually a good way to sell "good wifi experience" to hotels: Airbnb does it better and it's easy to compete with that aspect.
I’ve stayed at some AirBNB/VRBO type places with terrible Wi-Fi. How do you know ahead of time which ones have “good” Wi-Fi?
Yes, because AirBnbs with shady host, hidden fees, no housekeeping, you’re expected to have the space spotless, no support of the wifi is bad, half the time the Airbnb is not legally suppose to short term rentals, etc.
Reviews would say those things ideally.
Or I could just go on my Hilton or Hyatt app and be guaranteed a minimum level of service and consistency and know they are operating legally. I also don’t have to worry about leaving the space spotless and cleaning fees.

Not to mention between status (automatically conferred by the right card), base loyalty points and the right cobranded credit cards, I can easily get 15%-25% back for future stays.

They don't. Your "host" also reviews you. Guess what your review is if you complain too much? Will any future host accept a complainer?

AirBNB's customers are the hosts. You, the "guest", are the product.

I've noticed the cheaper the hotel, the more amenities they have, like free wifi. Why? It seems like it should be the opposite.
Big hotel chain will have a legal team, which will demand a terms of service to cover their butt, which will mean a captive portal with a checkbox.
Pretty simple explanation here: The cheap hotel is cheap because that’s the price it takes to fill the rooms up. If they could charge more, they would. Cheaper hotels need more amenities to attract guests, or else they’d be even cheaper to fill rooms.

Expensive hotels have enough going for them (location usually), that they can afford to nickel and dime you because they know they’ll fill the rooms anyway.

The customer at a cheap hotel is likely price sensitive, and is unlikely to pay for wifi. They'll either use their phone data, or just go without. So the hotel might as well just provide free wifi to compete with other cheap hotels.

For high end hotels, the customer is much less price sensitive, and is more likely to pay for the wifi without thinking about it. Many customers at high end hotels are also business travelers, who don't care about price because they aren't paying for it.

I think it's as simple as this: At cheaper places everything is cheaper
Same way you convince any business to do anything: market pressure or regulation. Regulation to make hotels provide free wifi is never going to happen, not in the US anyway. I have no idea how you could get market pressure to accomplish this either.

So, basically you the answer is you can't.

As for the cost, I agree. Just charge me more on the room itself. But in EU and many other countries, you are responsible for knowing who does what through your network.

As for the user experience, why not just give you a personal generated password when you check in? Then they have the info they need, and you just need to enter the password. Both iOS and Android support auto filling SSID and password through a QR-code and NFC, so that's the best solution I think.

> As for the user experience, why not just give you a personal generated password when you check in? Then they have the info they need, and you just need to enter the password.

In my experience, a lot of hotels already do this.

Not a good idea considering the security and privacy of open WiFi.
Right, even if everyone knows the password, the four-way handshake makes it much harder to sniff other people's traffic.
How do you think having an open access point would provide a good experience to hotel users when anyone can log on?

And what problem are you trying to solve?

I mostly stay in Hiltons. You just enter your last name and room number and you’re in. It’s even an easy enough process with my Roku stick that I take with me that doesn’t have a browser.

"Spreading the word" isn't needed. There are plenty of low-friction tech solutions to public Wi-Fi onboarding and the people responsible for these systems know about them.

The persistence of stupid captive portals etc. is an intentional move by the hotel, coffee shop, wherever. Their marketing department values your eyeballs + any data you provide as part of sign up. It's stupid because you're trying to get online, you don't want to experience this friction, but it's a "customer touchpoint" and the venues don't want to lose it.

Source: have built large Wi-Fi networks for 15 years, helped develop Passpoint support on Android, ran large U.S. coffee shop Wi-Fi, ran citywide Wi-Fi in NYC.

I’ve seen ads sometimes on airport WiFi, but rarely anything of consequence at hotels, other than a basic splash page promoting the hotel itself. The hotel also already has all your personal information from the booking, so I don’t see how WiFi could be any kind of significant driver of further data collection through a captive portal page.

The one thing they do have to do is make you accept terms and conditions, and that almost always seems to be the primary driving force on these pages.

I didn't say it was a particularly valuable ad space, I completely agree :) But having had these conversations with the people responsible, that's nevertheless the reality.

There are existing supported technologies which solve all of these issues. You can set up a Passpoint OSU solution, route users through T&Cs once and provision their device with a secure credential for encrypted autoconnection in the future. Or build said sign-in into the venue's mobile app. But that requires consensus from the corporate stakeholders (marketing and legal), who tend to prefer status quo.

There are folks working on these problems, both from wireless industry and venue side, and if anyone is really interested in helping I'd suggest looking into the Wireless Broadband Alliance as well as the Wi-Fi Alliance. Passpoint will eventually kill portals but it's taking forever due to these politics.

With unlimited data connections I presume offering WiFi really only works for tourists anyway.
Most of us book online any... so uhhh why not just ask for the mac address of the machine, add it to the network on check in, remove it on check out?
Getting a normal user to get you a MAC address would be... challenging. Especially on devices that randomize them.
Most those places have an "app" I'm sure someone smart could figure that one out.
iPhones apps are not allowed access to your MAC. It would allow apps to individually track users.
Hmm. How would this work for regular non-tech savvy users?

I doubt regular customers know what a MAC address is.

iPhones at least randomly change MAC addresses as an anti tracking measure. Besides, when I travel with my wife. do I really want to have to give my MAC addresses to both of our laptops, both of our phones, and both of our iPads?
I don't want to preenter a single MAC, let alone the 7 that are coming along for the ride when I and/or my family travel
Are you sure we can't just keep the systems that ask for room number and last name with no rate limiting that just bills the occupant of that room when they check out? I'm a big fan of those. /s
Get a travel router.

I have the Gl.inet Slate, and when I get to my hotel each week, I just plug that in, maybe log into its admin interface and deal with the captive portal (not always necessary since I usually stay at Marriotts and it use remembers), and then all my devices connect to that like I’m at home. Super seamless.

I need to go through and setup ad blocking and possibly default VPN/Wireguard connection, just haven’t gotten around to that part yet.

I have one of these as well (mine is a different but similar model - GL-AR750S-EXT). But I don't travel often enough, I guess. Because every time I go to use it, it's a struggle to get it to work and I typically just give up.

Last weekend I stayed at a Hyatt, and the first thing I did when I got to the room was power it up. But I couldn't for the life of me get the captive portal page to load when I was connected through it. It worked fine connected directly to the hotel's wifi, but through the router - nothing. So I gave up. It wasn't worth the hassle.

whenever that happens, try going to "example.com" in your browser. that will almost always trigger the captive portal.

Also, make sure your router dns settings aren't interfering with the captive portal itself (they hijack your dns and redirect you when they haven't had you login before).

I've noticed "plugging in" seems to be less of a thing anymore and a lot of hotels seem to be wifi only (or perhaps I can't ever find the ethernet jack but I do look). You can still handle this with a travel router but it's a bit more work.
I either hotspot my phone, or use the [included] hotel wifi+vpn

Carrying yet-another-piece-of-equipment is added complexity and confusion I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with

After traveling around the world I definitely see the cheaper hotel better wifi paradox.

Expensive chains require a terms of service to cover the liability of illegal goings on with use of wifi.

Cheap hotels don’t really pay too much attention to that and so the wifi is simply a password given at the front desk.

To tell you the truth I would require people to have sign a TOS as well if I had a hotel.

These businesses are highly regulated and inspected. For cheaper hotels if they get sued they can just sell or walk away from it and still be alive.

Back in my home country I gave free wifi to some people in the village. And at some point I had to take it away.

So many people started to gather around the front of my house that it became annoying. Some people even started to come into the property. Suffice to say I shut it down soon. Then everyone hated me.

It’s not as easy as it sounds.

Nothing is free.

> Back in my home country I gave free wifi to some people in the village. And at some point I had to take it away.

Interesting. Did you consider just setting up free wifi routers across the village so they didn't have to congregate in one place?

Why do so many people never consider the cost of things these days?

Would make for a good essay or video.

>Would make for a good essay or video.

they've been made

thousands upon thousands of times

people don't want to pay for things they've decided they're entitled to

I have an open wifi network at my house. I used to have it wide open until I saw a neighbor using a LOT of traffic on a consistent basis.

I now have it traffic shaped to a tiny trickle of bandwidth, but enough for a casual passerby to check their email/Facebook, send an iMessage, or get some map data, but nowhere near enough to stream or download anything unless you have extreme patience.

> Expensive chains require a terms of service to cover the liability of illegal goings on with use of wifi.

Why don’t they bury this in the terms you agree to when you book the room? Also, what liability can the provider actually incur in this situation? Seems like corporate paranoia.

If the local prosecutor thinks IP address = terrorist, pedophile, drug dealer, or worse of all a copyright infringer then it can be heavily armed police shutting down the business and confiscating all computerized items.
Just get everyone on the planet to stop committing crimes on other people's wifi, or at least have the decency to use a vpn. I doubt any hotel would really care about passwords if they weren't getting C&Ds from mpaa/riaa.
Why wouldn’t a hotel care that their customers are getting worse internet speeds because none customers are using it?
Hotel wifi being a little shitty is already the status quo with good wifi being an exception to the rule. Customer complaints can be resolved with a tactical 'computers man iunno' at the front desk.
Don’t you think it would be worse if you add non customers?
What makes you think you're entitled to "free WiFi, no passwords"?

It's a service the hotel (or restaurant, library, etc) is providing to its customers - not any rando who happens to be within radio distance.

Why should you be special and not have to provide some form of authentication that you "belong" there?

This is a situation crafted by ISPs to ensure everyone has to pay them individually. There was a time when wifi was being thought of more like water fountains in US buildings or public roads. People used to intentionally provide free internet access to others on a broad scale, but greed and fear inevitably took over. We could have ubiquitous open wifi if we chose to, and i would argue we are already collectively paying for the necessary hardware.

There has been a cultural corrosion of the public space and how it is though about in general. For example, libraries don't have "customers". They are services to the pubic with the mission of providing information access. If any place should have free wifi it's a library.

>This is a situation crafted by ISPs to ensure everyone has to pay them individually. There was a time when wifi was being thought of more like water fountains in US buildings or public roads.

What is this mythical "time" of which you speak?

Internet service providers have costs, and pass them along to their customers

You can dislike that if you want, but it doesn't change reality

You pay for water

You pay for gas

You pay for what you use - as you should

>For example, libraries don't have "customers". They are services to the pubic with the mission of providing information access.

Libraries call their "customers" "patrons" or "members"

Sidebar - your myopic view of libraries as only those which are "public" is telling

Governments and technology companies baulk on about providing wifi to undervalued communities across the world in the name of progress and development. Of course Wifi should be free because your taxes paid for the infrastructure, same goes for energy and water utilities, they should also be provided at no cost to ordinary users.
“your taxes” didn’t pay for the build out of the modern internet infrastructure.
Private corporations get big tax breaks and government investment at your expense pals.
LOL

>Of course Wifi should be free because your taxes paid for the infrastructure, same goes for energy and water utilities, they should also be provided at no cost to ordinary users.

My "taxes" didn't pay for any of that - it's all done by private industry

But thanks for playing

If you find yourself in a position to organize a conference or large gathering, vote with your organization's money and don't book places with abusive wifi policies, even if it isn't completely free. I have seen Marriott hotels extorting groups for $10k+ for internet access at the last second, for instance. If we stop giving these crooks our money the market will sort it out.
Feels like https://freifunk.net/ deserves a mention in this thread. It's an association in Germany that works on broad, open access to the internet via Wifi (with optional Meshing functionality). They have, among other things, ISP status - so if you provide an open Freifunk Wifi based on their infrastructure, all/most potential legal troubles go through them and not through you.
It may be illegal, it also opens up security issues if the network is unsecured. I definitely hate the login pop-ups, I'd rather use a username/password using the standard OS prompt.
I believe monetizing Wi-Fi is the solution. Most cellular traffic is transmitted while indoors in range of a wi-fi access point. If you could pay e.g. Boingo $15/mo to aggregate paid wifi access then it would be well worth it. Ideally the revenue share would encourage nearly every business to offer a roaming SSID, as ubiquitous as credit card acceptance.

https://blog.google/technology/area-120/orion-wifi/

Hotel manager, chiming in.

> If there's any kind of pasword—they're doing it wrong.

Dare I ask, why? Everyone and their dog understands that WiFi access usually requires a password. Also, the hotel I manage is in a residential area, and we'd rather NOT have neighbors free-loading off our WiFi.