They’ve been teasing an EV Cub for a few years now. Excited to try it out. I just saw shots from some friends in Japan here this weekend where they were putting an electric CR through its paces (their offroad only dirtbike line). I believe it was a Honda GO related event.
Like the US, Japan allows people to ride a 50cc (or equivalent ev) moped or scooter on the street (when license plated) with their regular car license, which is why they’re going after this size.
Love the designs - but how is this better than a modern electric pedal assist or throttle controlled electric ebike?
They made a lot of sense during the oil crisis but why would anyone really bother getting licensed, paying for registration and maintaining insurance when you can get an electric bike and get a very similar experience without all that hassle?
I'm not trying to be dismissive mind you, but genuinely curious if this potential market will be big enough to address it.
In many countries, (incl. US), you can ride a moped with just a car license. The registration is greatly simplified compared to car and insurance wouldn't be that much.
I looked into it years ago and a moped license was way easier to get than a motorcycle license. Now it appears they both have the same requirements, just the M2 is more restricted in what it can be used for.
In Oregon if it is less than 50cc and can not go faster than 30mph on a flat level surface than it only requires a normal car driver's license. No motorcycle endorsement is required.
I'd say in most of the EU you can ride <125ccm motorbike with regular car license, so this changes nothing at least in EU.
Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume.
Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this:
"cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
The 50cc and 125cc motorcycle classes are defined in the EU as both maximum volume and maximum power output in kW. So it's not too unusual to see '50cc-class' and '125cc-class' as descriptors for electric vehicles - a bit like how you could buy compact fluorescent or LED lights as '100W equivalent'.
I don’t have a response to your first question - some modern e-bikes are very capable.
But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT.
You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.
The difference is in the on-road experience. With this you are classified as a motor vehicle and can expect to keep up with and maneuver through road speed traffic.
That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths.
The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion.
From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.
I'm a long-time motorcyclist, but around the city, I prefer my bicycle. I can go on beautiful bike paths through parks, take breaks along the river, and not worry about a helmet hair. At lower speeds I don't need protective gear. I can carry much more stuff with my saddle bags.
Oh and there are no biannual inspections, no insurance, no petrol. Maintaining a bicycle is a breeze.
In Berlin, bicycle is just better. An electric one would be just as good, even with the EU limitations.
When I bought my scooter the 50cc models I test drove could not reliably keep up with 30-35mph traffic. My 125cc does fine up to 45mph except on a steep incline.
To give people an idea of the subjective difference...
Decades ago, I used to be a bicycle commuter in Somerville, MA (USA). There weren't any usable bike paths, and so cyclists had to use the street and follow traffic rules like any other vehicle—lanes, signaling, etc. Local police enthusiastically enforced the law, and normally expected adult bikes to act as vehicles. Drivers were typical for the Boston area: Aggressive, minimal use of signals, but good awareness.
There was a major 3-lane intersection with roads going (left)/(left+straight)/(straight+right). A safe left turn required moving into and fully occupying the middle lane in traffic, typically sprinting at around 30 km/h. Which is about the top legal speed I've seen for pedal assist. This is not an especially comfortable speed in complex traffic, and I didn't enjoy it. I don't think you'd want lots of unskilled people doing this on ebikes, either. With 30 km/h intersections, you want people to be predictable and to strictly follow all traffic laws. And to be honest, casual cyclists do not reliably follow traffic laws.
On steep, empty roads, I've twice hit about 65 km/h on descents on road bikes. I personally found this unnerving without full motorcycle gear, especially when I encountered poor road conditions on a corner. Never again.
So yeah, an electric moped is a whole different game than a class 1 peddle-assist ebike. 30 km/h accidents can be awful, but 50 km/h accidents can easily turn deadly for the unprotected human body.
I’ve gone 50-60 kmph with traffic before on a road bike, it’s not too hard because the cars provide a lot of draft, but yeah I wouldn’t want to be mixed with traffic on two wheels, even with leathers you can still get run over by the car right behind you. I’ve seen countless instances of a motorbike hitting a pothole and then getting run over by an SUV or just a bus turning and not noticing a motorbike.
You're also a whole lot less visible as a bicycle, which is an issue even at 20kmph, you'd have people pancaked in no time if you could all-motor around at 60kmph on a vehicle that only has bicycle lighting regulations.
Ebikes have restrictions on power, or speed in most places. Of course this is largely not enforced when people DIY, but a legit company can't just bring a mass produced 2000w ebike to market.
I am kind of surprised that there is no obvious mount for a basket on the back (or front?) for small amounts of shopping and whatnot. Seems like it would increase the utility of it massively.
My friends in Paris who use mopeds a lot would definitely miss the carrying capacity, modest as it is. The footboard looks wide enough to place some bags in but not everyone likes that.
Sadly in the US they are going to be flattened by rolling coal in those monster sized pickups and SUVs
Maybe not even on purpose, the profile in traffic is almost invisible in the morning before sunrise, no-one is looking at the road anymore but rather their phone and no law seems able to stop them without enforcement.
50cc category is important in Japan because it's really easy and cheap to get license, and some high school students are allowed only to get 50cc license.
It might depend on country, but typically it's 30 MILES per hour or 50 KILOMETERS per hour, which are roughly equivalent and match default speed limits on most European roads.
In 2024 there are new laws set to come into effect allowing pedal-less light electric vehicles in Japan. The rules include not requiring a helmet, not requiring a licence, no under 16s and a max speed of 20kph.
It will be interesting to see how this affects the 50cc and below vehicle class, which require helmets, have a speed limit of 30kph (somewhat enforced, often broken) and are required to make a two-step right turn on larger junctions.
It might be good timing to re-assess the rules for 50cc vehicles. Driving at 30kph while traffic is going past you at double the speed is more dangerous than moving with traffic. Differential speed limits have been shown to be unsafe and modern 50cc scooters can keep up with all but the fastest city traffic.
In some countries, including mine, having pedals means a license isn't required to drive it. I'm surprised they didn't make the pedals and cranks fold out of the way when not in use.
This is a big deal. Honda sells more step through scooters than anyone else. Particularly in SE Asia. Also it has pedals which technically makes it a moped/electric bicycle.
That said, it's a Honda. You can trace the current 50cc and 125cc step through scooters all the way back to the 1960s particularly the engine-frame bolt pattern. This makes interchangeable parts safe to design and manufacture as there's an enormous market for them. You could call them the Chevy small block 350 V8 of motorcycles.
Honda finally releasing a 50cc equivalent electric moped will instantly create an entire sub market of compatible parts and, unlike every other ebike manufacturer out there, Honda will still be there in 20 years, and you'll be able to buy parts for this off the shelf in 120+ counties worldwide.
>This brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph and no more than 4kW of power;
for comparison, i have been using an hero electric "optima" bought exactly 3 years ago which has a motor of 250 watts and battery of 1kwh.
No way that something with a 180 kg weight limit only has a 250W motor. I know it’s written on the website, but that simply wouldn’t work. 250 W is weaker than the Xiaomi Mi Scooter, which is a lightweight kick scooter already criticized for being too weak.
and these are "hot selling" vehicles and i own epluto and optima (optima is not on website as that was refreshed since) and 210+ as i've already said so yeah
Electric mopeds are an extremely well established market overseas. In China both annual production and ownership have been higher than cars every year for the last 15 years!
They're around Europe as well, in fact they've overtaken sales of petrol scooters recently [0]. This one is low power and has pedals though, which makes me wonder if it's trying to compete with pedal assist electric bikes... and why, since those are much more prevalent. Unless this one has a much bigger battery I guess.
I think vehicles like this have pedals so that they can pass legally as a bicycle on the road (in certain jurisdictions) and be exempt from requiring insurance and license.
It fits with a history of these hybrids; the aforementioned Puch [0] brand has been around for decades. My grandma would come over to visit on a Spartamet [1], predating electric pedal-assist bikes. These things are underpowered; enough to chooch you along on a flat road, but here and there they may need some assistance, or they run out of power / fuel.
It has a motor and pedals. Isn't that exactly what a moped is?
edit Apparently some jurisdictions around the world use the term "moped" to refer to small motorcycles even when they don't have pedals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
I remember many years ago when in France to be a moped (technically a cyclomoteur, that could be driven by 14 years old without a license) there was the need to have pedals, so there were "funny" motorbikes with pedals clearly added on as an afterthought or however explictly added for the French model only.
> allows all people to use them without a motorcycle license
Also (and I think more notably) the DMV does not require registration in most US states.
There's a fair number of people who end up on them after getting DUI's as well (although technically this is not legal since you're still required to have a valid driver's license almost everywhere... but they probably don't get caught that often).
There have been many more electric scooters in europe already. The only thing differentiating it seems to be the pedals, which makes it more of an s-pedelec (in german at least). Compared to those it mostly has a larger frame and possibly battery.
Overall I wonder why this is interesting in that context, too.
Even worse, this article is purely speculative based on a design document.
Honda advertorial? I mean, forget Piaggio, you can go into any larger supermarket and have a pick of several models. Or several dozen models if you shop online.
The Piaggio are 3x more expensive than the asian (chinese, taiwan, HK) variants.
You get the asians for 800 to 1600 EUR, with are better equipped than this Honda.
And for this price segment only one seat? You need at least two.
We come back to urban design not vehicle design. This is a fine vehicle I am sure, and fits in similar category to eBikes etc. Small, designed for town and city, can be lugged up and down steps so kept in non-car spaces. But vulnerable to a ton of fast moving metal.
We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car.
- seperate lanes and roads for "vulnerable vehicles", for manual vs motor powered.
- license all powered and manual vehicles - treat them all the same. (this most importantly includes insurance. I am a bike rider hit by a car and still not seen a penny. But if I had a giant bureaucratic insurance company on my side it would have been sorted already. And the externality priced in better.
- All the other arguments on StrongTowns, 15 minute cities etc. It's too late for Houston but maybe we can save other towns.
> We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car.
I agree with you philosophically but how would this work in practice? Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas.
It's like, if a giant earthquake flattened LA sure, that would be a great excuse to redesign the entire city. But the vast majority of the infra isn't going anywhere, and nobody is gonna float redesigning a city with the level of NIMBY-goodness here.
Practically speaking, a "50cc-rated EV moped" is a great way to, at minimum, start to get people thinking less about cars, in my opinion. It's a necessary bridge to a future that's probably decades away.
> Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas.
I mean, in Europe we've largely repurposed medieval towns to car usage, with much worse constraints in terms of preservation of historical buildings. US cities can be much more radical and much more easily, if they really want to.
It's much more complicated in practice, but in theory, it's pretty simple: convert existing car lanes to bike lanes. Chaos will ensue as the construction work and reduced road throughput inevitably generate huge jams.
That chaos is a feature, not a bug. It's meant to discourage people from using their car. If you keep car usage convenient, people will continue to use their car. Any measure that makes using a car inconvenient is a good thing. Low road throughput, high parking cost, low number of parking spots etc...
I've seen it played out in Paris, which was very much a car city two decades ago, and can now be described as a bike-friendly city: it's far from being on-par with Netherlands standard, but good enough that lots of people chose a bike over other methods of transportation, and cars are generally one of the slowest form of transportation in a city (behind public transit, bikes or other 2-wheelers).
People are going to be angry, and you have to ignore them. Take something like Santa Monica Boulevard (which doesn't even look like it goes through any useful parts of the city, aside from housing, so there could be better places to do so), which is, seemingly, a mix of 3x3 lanes, and 2x2 at times with enough space to slide in a whole bus in the middle.
Remove all these lanes. Drop a tramway in the middle, with regular passages (one every 2-5 minutes is a standard in Europe). This serves both for tramways and emergency vehicles, grant them the right to drive here. Couple it with a bike lane on both sides, alongside that tramway line. Leave a single lane, usable for cars (which you really don't want to take anymore since it's become a single lane. Over time, car traffic reduces) and buses (which shouldn't pass by there too much, since you already have a tramway. Not along the whole length, at least, just portions. Congratulations, you've removed the need for a car for anyone alongside that road, going anywhere in a 10 minute radius around it.
Now, that's not much, and that's not all. Other plans have to include considering a small tactical nuke to clear out massive parking spaces for people coming from outside the city, at the extremities of these tramway lines. You really want them to drop that car outside. Then do it again. Start criss crossing. San Vincente Blvd, Western Ave., wherever. Just have the transit system befitting a major city, in a major first world country.
Now, yes, this also takes 30 years to finish, but that's the only way it's ever worked in car centric cities that transformed into tolerable, walkable places.
>>I am a bike rider hit by a car and still not seen a penny. But if I had a giant bureaucratic insurance company on my side it would have been sorted already.
....cyclist insurance is a thing though? You could have bought one if this is an important consideration for you. And either way, if you have personal liability coverage on your home policy then it covers that kind of thing - so you most likely already have a "giant insurance company" on your side.
Also as much as I agree with you, we need to put up as few barriers to cycling as possible so that people actually cycle.
Like, to give a different example - I think that helmets while cycling should be absolutely mandatory, and they have saved my life at least once. But the Dutch have figured out that making helmets mandatory puts people off cycling enough that it's a net disadvantage - so I'm willing to trust the data on this.
Use a helmet all the time anyway. Something might happen and you fly over the handlebars, like when my front splash guard broke off, jammed between the wheel and the fork, and sent me flying at 20mph. Glad I wore a helmet.
Yes, but that means having a helmet on yourself all the time, which will limit how much you take a bike. (Majority of my biking is done through shared bikes)
Also in the city center it is very rare that you'd go faster than 12/15 mph.
I rode original 2T internal combustion scooters half of my life, all the way from '72 Vespa and up to ~20hp tuned Italjets. And the other half I rode motorcycles.
The saying goes - you ride for a season, you fall at least once, no exceptions.
I can't understand people whooshing about at 15, well, 10 mph without any sort of protective gear on 4-inch wheels. This is dangerous as hell, it's basically guaranteed hospitalization if you hit so much as a pile of pigeon shit, not to mention a pothole.
I've been riding long enough to have ended up on the bonnet of two cars, and I've rapped my helmet against the ground once. Encourage anyone to wear them.
The reason I've never had a serious concussion, broken wrist, etc. has nothing to do with protective equipment, however. It's entirely fall training, from Aikido as a preteen, then Judo as an adult.
BJJ is another way to learn this but I'm serious: this is the one thing which is the most likely to downgrade an accident from dire to serious, or serious to okay. Helmets can keep your skull from cracking, but they do very little to prevent the brain from shaking around, what does, is tucking your chin.
> Is my ride 100% in segregated bike lane: no need for helmet unless you want to be extra safe.
The security of helmets is largely linked to the speed the cyclist bikes at. Lane segregation has little to do with it - on busy cyclist lanes in London, where people go at insane speeds, you really want to have a helmet.
Makes sense, and I had some close encounters with pedestrians crossing bike lanes behind a corner and without looking (disk breaks saved me a couple of times there).
And if you're going around fast bikes, I agree 100%. However in my city center, bike speeds are fairly slow. You can speed but you'll hit a red-light or a crossing tramway so frequently that it doesn't matter.
I’ve been hit by slow moving cars as a kid and fallen off dirt jumps. A helmet has saved my head many times. Including a recent accident where I slipped on a wet curb in a bike lane and fell backwards. The back of my head slapped the pavement and if I didn’t have my helmet I would’ve been unconscious for sure.
The only time I ride without my helmet is on my street when I ride slow with my kids.
Presumably with cyclists insurance, you get penalised (with higher premiums in the future) for someone else hitting you, rather than (hopefully) the other drivers' insurance taking the brunt of it. Moreso as cyclists aren't a large proportion of most cities (and I say this as a cyclist who commutes every day including city traffic, except when the road is fully icy).
>>Presumably with cyclists insurance, you get penalised (with higher premiums in the future) for someone else hitting you, rather than (hopefully) the other drivers' insurance taking the brunt of it.
It works the same as your car insurance - your insurer will pursue the other party and make their insurance pay.
Regardless, even your own car insurance will go up in premiums if you have ever been in an accident, even if it 100% wasn't your fault. It's just how it works, sadly.
I'd rather not have to pay insurance for my bike. In fact, that would be a huge blocker to me in even getting one. As is my bike is cheap enough that I don't have to worry about someone stealing it. No insurance policy could justify the cost.
As for being hit by a car, medical insurance would cover all costs.
In NL, bikes rarely have insurance - maybe theft insurance if they're new and/or expensive.
That said, if you get hit by a car, even if it's your own fault, the car driver is held liable; they drive the heavier vehicle, they've had formal training (getting a driver's license here involves 25-50 hours of practical driving lessons with a licensed trainer, a theoretical and a practical exam), and all cars (and most motorized vehicles) are required by law to have a liability insurance in case they cause an accident.
Just as well, even minor fender benders can cost hundreds of euros these days.
> In fact, that would be a huge blocker to me in even getting one.
I have minimum-legal insurance on my (gas, 1000cc) motorcycle. It costs $99/yr through Geico. If you really wanted, I bet you could get down to $75 with an off-brand insurance supplier and probably lower with a moped. A mild annoyance, but still less than a blue check mark.
Exactly what I came here to say. I am a huge proponent of tiny personal transportation (on both two and four wheels). What we need is legislation that makes the roads safe again.
Nobody cares about some 50cc category in EU, the definition according EU directive is about power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh):
"cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
Article doesn't mention electric engine power. Obviously if they would ditch pedals they have no chance.
And I'd say most of the EU countries require regular car license up to <125cc, but yeah, some have lower requirements for <50cc mopeds.
You might want to review the EU driver licence classes then.
Class AM
"Two-wheel vehicles or three-wheel vehicles with a maximum design speed of not more than 45 kilometres per hour (28 mph) and with a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimetres (3.1 cu in). "
As I said this is electric bike, nothing to do with cylinders in EU, but power output of 250 W, so completely different category from what you mention and as I said regarding ICU motorbikes, you are fine with normal car license up to 125ccm and if you don't have car license then it's slightly easier maybe to get 50ccm license, but still nothing to do with ELECTRIC bike.
> regarding ICU motorbikes, you are fine with normal car license up to 125ccm
This sounds like class A1 vehicle (up to 125 cm3 for ICE, up to 11 kW engine power, up to 0.1 kW/kg engine power per mass of vehicle)
With my class B license (the usual normal car license most people have), the only two-wheel motor vehicles I'm allowed to operate are class AM mentioned by the parent comment above.
For operating class A1 you need a class A license.
Quoted from Wikipedia about B holders automatically able to drive also A1 without any additional training:
"B licence holders in Czech Republic (only motorcycles with automatic and semi-automatic transmission), Italy, Latvia, Slovakia (after two years and only motorcycles with automatic transmission), Spain (after three years), Poland (after three years), Portugal (at least 25 years old or additional licence for mopeds), and Belgium (after two years) are allowed to drive motorcycles not exceeding 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) within the respective countries."
So roguhly 1/3 of EU population is fine just with B license. In other countries you just need few hours of training.
In the UK you can also operate class A1 for up to two years on a provisional license as a 'learner driver' displaying 'L' plates upon completing compulsory basic training (CBT)
You can't 'fail' CBT and any motorcycle instructor / downtrained instructor can write you a certificate once you have completed the required steps and are deemed competent. This takes half a day to a day and has to include 2 hours of supervised riding on the road
Many people who don't want to ride bikes with more than 125cc never get their A license and just retake the CBT every 2 years. Most delivery drivers or parking wardens etc. I have seen do this too
No I think it fits perfectly AM, in Germany it is even called Motorfahrrad (MoFa, motorized bike). The pedals seem silly but I remember using them on step streets. Anyway just compare the specs here
https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/...
"a maximum design speed of up to 45 km/h"
"an electric motor or an internal combustion engine with a cubic capacity not exceeding 50 cc or
a maximum continuous rated power of up to 4 kW in the case of electric motors"
And the specs mentioned in the artikle
"...his brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph(~45 km/h) and no more than 4kW of power"
OK I read the news different way - it will be for sure more than 250W so you need license already anyway, so I've found pedals odd and thought they used them to avoid requiring any license.
And if they don't care about license then more than 1/3 of Europe (population) have A1 already with B license anyway, so why use pedals then, this seems like really odd niche for teenagers, since if you are adult you either have B license (and pretty good odds having A1 anyway, so you have much higher limits) and you can drive electric motorbike without pedals or don't have any license and you are not gonna make AM specifically to ride this moped, if they wanted to target the group without license they should add pedals (which they did) and weak 0.25kW electric engine (which, they won't), so this is really motorbike for teenagers, otherwise they should ditch pedals and can put there stronger engine if it's intended for adults.
In Poland you can ride 2/3-wheel AM vehicles (45km/h, commonly unlocked for more) without any license (just registration and insurance), if you were born before 1995. In Finland if born before 1985.
But AM vehicle category don't require pedals, so the pedals seem pointless.
This is not a pedal-assisted bicycle, it's a motorized bicycle. A pedal-assisted bicycle has to cut the motor power once you stop pedalling, whereas for this Honda the article states "it’s clear from the design that the pedals aren’t intended to be used constantly."
A motorized bicycle (L1e-A) is allowed to power the motor regardless of pedalling and can do up to a 1 kW of continuous power and 25 km/h. A two-wheeled moped (L1e-B) can do 4 kW of continuous power and 45 km/h.
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[ 1.4 ms ] story [ 249 ms ] threadLike the US, Japan allows people to ride a 50cc (or equivalent ev) moped or scooter on the street (when license plated) with their regular car license, which is why they’re going after this size.
They made a lot of sense during the oil crisis but why would anyone really bother getting licensed, paying for registration and maintaining insurance when you can get an electric bike and get a very similar experience without all that hassle?
I'm not trying to be dismissive mind you, but genuinely curious if this potential market will be big enough to address it.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-regis...
"You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped."
https://www.oregon.gov/odot/forms/dmv/6619.pdf
Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume.
Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this: "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
For example, an ebike in Europe is speed limited to 25kph, and just small motors that can only output 250W.
But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT.
You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.
That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths.
The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion.
From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.
I'm a long-time motorcyclist, but around the city, I prefer my bicycle. I can go on beautiful bike paths through parks, take breaks along the river, and not worry about a helmet hair. At lower speeds I don't need protective gear. I can carry much more stuff with my saddle bags.
Oh and there are no biannual inspections, no insurance, no petrol. Maintaining a bicycle is a breeze.
In Berlin, bicycle is just better. An electric one would be just as good, even with the EU limitations.
Decades ago, I used to be a bicycle commuter in Somerville, MA (USA). There weren't any usable bike paths, and so cyclists had to use the street and follow traffic rules like any other vehicle—lanes, signaling, etc. Local police enthusiastically enforced the law, and normally expected adult bikes to act as vehicles. Drivers were typical for the Boston area: Aggressive, minimal use of signals, but good awareness.
There was a major 3-lane intersection with roads going (left)/(left+straight)/(straight+right). A safe left turn required moving into and fully occupying the middle lane in traffic, typically sprinting at around 30 km/h. Which is about the top legal speed I've seen for pedal assist. This is not an especially comfortable speed in complex traffic, and I didn't enjoy it. I don't think you'd want lots of unskilled people doing this on ebikes, either. With 30 km/h intersections, you want people to be predictable and to strictly follow all traffic laws. And to be honest, casual cyclists do not reliably follow traffic laws.
On steep, empty roads, I've twice hit about 65 km/h on descents on road bikes. I personally found this unnerving without full motorcycle gear, especially when I encountered poor road conditions on a corner. Never again.
So yeah, an electric moped is a whole different game than a class 1 peddle-assist ebike. 30 km/h accidents can be awful, but 50 km/h accidents can easily turn deadly for the unprotected human body.
There's a pretty strong contradiction here. Nowhere on earth, except maybe North Korea does the traffic actually reflect the law.
And IMO predictability > letter of the law every time.
My friends in Paris who use mopeds a lot would definitely miss the carrying capacity, modest as it is. The footboard looks wide enough to place some bags in but not everyone likes that.
(Aside: Thanks for OverlordBot!)
Thanks very much.
Maybe not even on purpose, the profile in traffic is almost invisible in the morning before sunrise, no-one is looking at the road anymore but rather their phone and no law seems able to stop them without enforcement.
30km/h at the crest can easily turn into 60+ km/h at the bottom if it's steep.
But basically with light driver this isn't too hard enforcement.
It will be interesting to see how this affects the 50cc and below vehicle class, which require helmets, have a speed limit of 30kph (somewhat enforced, often broken) and are required to make a two-step right turn on larger junctions.
It might be good timing to re-assess the rules for 50cc vehicles. Driving at 30kph while traffic is going past you at double the speed is more dangerous than moving with traffic. Differential speed limits have been shown to be unsafe and modern 50cc scooters can keep up with all but the fastest city traffic.
https://ubco.co.nz/
edit:
they already do have an on-road version of it :) https://ubco.co.nz/pages/rv
Think you could go mountain biking with it?
Spacing and pedal arm length look to me like they'd be very uncomfortable though.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3T_vM3VBI
Who's game?
That said, it's a Honda. You can trace the current 50cc and 125cc step through scooters all the way back to the 1960s particularly the engine-frame bolt pattern. This makes interchangeable parts safe to design and manufacture as there's an enormous market for them. You could call them the Chevy small block 350 V8 of motorcycles.
Honda finally releasing a 50cc equivalent electric moped will instantly create an entire sub market of compatible parts and, unlike every other ebike manufacturer out there, Honda will still be there in 20 years, and you'll be able to buy parts for this off the shelf in 120+ counties worldwide.
>This brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph and no more than 4kW of power;
for comparison, i have been using an hero electric "optima" bought exactly 3 years ago which has a motor of 250 watts and battery of 1kwh.
https://heroelectric.in/bike/atria-lx/#specs here is an updated version of this.it is still the same insides.
here is my actual usage pattern. 180Kg weight limit and i have consistently pulled 210Kg+ on this.
the battery has severely degraded to a point my first Km range was 50km while today i can only manage 20.
i have used this machine in rain, snow, sun and all the 6 seasons of the valley and has performed admirably.
plus the cost is also around $1000 or less so i don't really see why anyone would need anything more?
sure if you need high speeds and all, you can buy high speed versions
https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/ETr...
datasheet for "etrance+"
https://pureev.in/epluto/
https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/EPl... datasheet for " epluto" here this is the base model and people pretty much use this as alternatives to regular 110/125cc petrol scooters.
third company selling 250watt scooters
https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/r30/r30/
https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/lite/lite/
and these are "hot selling" vehicles and i own epluto and optima (optima is not on website as that was refreshed since) and 210+ as i've already said so yeah
It'll be interesting to see whether Honda follows Gogoro with swapable batteries, charging infrastructure, sharing apps etc.
These machines look more robust than an e-bicycle: better suited to rental markets, and perhaps in countries with lower quality road infrastructure.
https://www.piaggio.com/gb_EN/models/piaggio-1/piaggio-1-1-2...
It seemed euro-centric.
[0] https://mijn.bovag.nl/actueel/nieuws/2022/februari/meer-elek...
[0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch#/media/Bestand:Puch_Maxi_... [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet#/media/Bestand:Sachs...
edit Apparently some jurisdictions around the world use the term "moped" to refer to small motorcycles even when they don't have pedals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
Example of a 50 cc Vespa with pedals:
https://vespasmallframeforum.proboards.com/thread/7725/vespa...
Also (and I think more notably) the DMV does not require registration in most US states.
There's a fair number of people who end up on them after getting DUI's as well (although technically this is not legal since you're still required to have a valid driver's license almost everywhere... but they probably don't get caught that often).
Overall I wonder why this is interesting in that context, too.
Even worse, this article is purely speculative based on a design document.
And for this price segment only one seat? You need at least two.
We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car.
- seperate lanes and roads for "vulnerable vehicles", for manual vs motor powered.
- license all powered and manual vehicles - treat them all the same. (this most importantly includes insurance. I am a bike rider hit by a car and still not seen a penny. But if I had a giant bureaucratic insurance company on my side it would have been sorted already. And the externality priced in better.
- All the other arguments on StrongTowns, 15 minute cities etc. It's too late for Houston but maybe we can save other towns.
I agree with you philosophically but how would this work in practice? Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas.
It's like, if a giant earthquake flattened LA sure, that would be a great excuse to redesign the entire city. But the vast majority of the infra isn't going anywhere, and nobody is gonna float redesigning a city with the level of NIMBY-goodness here.
Practically speaking, a "50cc-rated EV moped" is a great way to, at minimum, start to get people thinking less about cars, in my opinion. It's a necessary bridge to a future that's probably decades away.
I mean, in Europe we've largely repurposed medieval towns to car usage, with much worse constraints in terms of preservation of historical buildings. US cities can be much more radical and much more easily, if they really want to.
That chaos is a feature, not a bug. It's meant to discourage people from using their car. If you keep car usage convenient, people will continue to use their car. Any measure that makes using a car inconvenient is a good thing. Low road throughput, high parking cost, low number of parking spots etc...
I've seen it played out in Paris, which was very much a car city two decades ago, and can now be described as a bike-friendly city: it's far from being on-par with Netherlands standard, but good enough that lots of people chose a bike over other methods of transportation, and cars are generally one of the slowest form of transportation in a city (behind public transit, bikes or other 2-wheelers).
Remove all these lanes. Drop a tramway in the middle, with regular passages (one every 2-5 minutes is a standard in Europe). This serves both for tramways and emergency vehicles, grant them the right to drive here. Couple it with a bike lane on both sides, alongside that tramway line. Leave a single lane, usable for cars (which you really don't want to take anymore since it's become a single lane. Over time, car traffic reduces) and buses (which shouldn't pass by there too much, since you already have a tramway. Not along the whole length, at least, just portions. Congratulations, you've removed the need for a car for anyone alongside that road, going anywhere in a 10 minute radius around it.
Now, that's not much, and that's not all. Other plans have to include considering a small tactical nuke to clear out massive parking spaces for people coming from outside the city, at the extremities of these tramway lines. You really want them to drop that car outside. Then do it again. Start criss crossing. San Vincente Blvd, Western Ave., wherever. Just have the transit system befitting a major city, in a major first world country.
Now, yes, this also takes 30 years to finish, but that's the only way it's ever worked in car centric cities that transformed into tolerable, walkable places.
....cyclist insurance is a thing though? You could have bought one if this is an important consideration for you. And either way, if you have personal liability coverage on your home policy then it covers that kind of thing - so you most likely already have a "giant insurance company" on your side.
Also as much as I agree with you, we need to put up as few barriers to cycling as possible so that people actually cycle.
Like, to give a different example - I think that helmets while cycling should be absolutely mandatory, and they have saved my life at least once. But the Dutch have figured out that making helmets mandatory puts people off cycling enough that it's a net disadvantage - so I'm willing to trust the data on this.
- Is my ride 100% in segregated bike lane: no need for helmet unless you want to be extra safe.
- Is there a chance I'm crossing paths with a car: helmet
(I'm lucky enough to live in a city that has bike lanes that cover most my needs)
Also in the city center it is very rare that you'd go faster than 12/15 mph.
The saying goes - you ride for a season, you fall at least once, no exceptions.
I can't understand people whooshing about at 15, well, 10 mph without any sort of protective gear on 4-inch wheels. This is dangerous as hell, it's basically guaranteed hospitalization if you hit so much as a pile of pigeon shit, not to mention a pothole.
The reason I've never had a serious concussion, broken wrist, etc. has nothing to do with protective equipment, however. It's entirely fall training, from Aikido as a preteen, then Judo as an adult.
BJJ is another way to learn this but I'm serious: this is the one thing which is the most likely to downgrade an accident from dire to serious, or serious to okay. Helmets can keep your skull from cracking, but they do very little to prevent the brain from shaking around, what does, is tucking your chin.
The security of helmets is largely linked to the speed the cyclist bikes at. Lane segregation has little to do with it - on busy cyclist lanes in London, where people go at insane speeds, you really want to have a helmet.
And if you're going around fast bikes, I agree 100%. However in my city center, bike speeds are fairly slow. You can speed but you'll hit a red-light or a crossing tramway so frequently that it doesn't matter.
The only time I ride without my helmet is on my street when I ride slow with my kids.
It works the same as your car insurance - your insurer will pursue the other party and make their insurance pay.
Regardless, even your own car insurance will go up in premiums if you have ever been in an accident, even if it 100% wasn't your fault. It's just how it works, sadly.
Personally I'd keep this one optional, so that cycling can remain an accessible option.
That said, if you get hit by a car, even if it's your own fault, the car driver is held liable; they drive the heavier vehicle, they've had formal training (getting a driver's license here involves 25-50 hours of practical driving lessons with a licensed trainer, a theoretical and a practical exam), and all cars (and most motorized vehicles) are required by law to have a liability insurance in case they cause an accident.
Just as well, even minor fender benders can cost hundreds of euros these days.
I have minimum-legal insurance on my (gas, 1000cc) motorcycle. It costs $99/yr through Geico. If you really wanted, I bet you could get down to $75 with an off-brand insurance supplier and probably lower with a moped. A mild annoyance, but still less than a blue check mark.
Then get insurance? You don't a national registration system to get cycle insurance - it's widely popular and extremely cheap.
This. It's not a matter of money, work or anything material. NA needs to realize it's because of culture. Too much focus on cars.
One thing that really helped all cyclers is that they are protected by law. So if you hit a cycler in your car, you are mostly always in the wrong.
It's never too late. Will it cost a lot of money and effort? Yes. Is it worth it? Absolutely.
"cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
Article doesn't mention electric engine power. Obviously if they would ditch pedals they have no chance.
And I'd say most of the EU countries require regular car license up to <125cc, but yeah, some have lower requirements for <50cc mopeds.
This sounds like class A1 vehicle (up to 125 cm3 for ICE, up to 11 kW engine power, up to 0.1 kW/kg engine power per mass of vehicle)
With my class B license (the usual normal car license most people have), the only two-wheel motor vehicles I'm allowed to operate are class AM mentioned by the parent comment above.
For operating class A1 you need a class A license.
"B licence holders in Czech Republic (only motorcycles with automatic and semi-automatic transmission), Italy, Latvia, Slovakia (after two years and only motorcycles with automatic transmission), Spain (after three years), Poland (after three years), Portugal (at least 25 years old or additional licence for mopeds), and Belgium (after two years) are allowed to drive motorcycles not exceeding 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) within the respective countries."
So roguhly 1/3 of EU population is fine just with B license. In other countries you just need few hours of training.
You can't 'fail' CBT and any motorcycle instructor / downtrained instructor can write you a certificate once you have completed the required steps and are deemed competent. This takes half a day to a day and has to include 2 hours of supervised riding on the road
Many people who don't want to ride bikes with more than 125cc never get their A license and just retake the CBT every 2 years. Most delivery drivers or parking wardens etc. I have seen do this too
Not sure if the EU is similar or not
And the specs mentioned in the artikle "...his brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph(~45 km/h) and no more than 4kW of power"
And if they don't care about license then more than 1/3 of Europe (population) have A1 already with B license anyway, so why use pedals then, this seems like really odd niche for teenagers, since if you are adult you either have B license (and pretty good odds having A1 anyway, so you have much higher limits) and you can drive electric motorbike without pedals or don't have any license and you are not gonna make AM specifically to ride this moped, if they wanted to target the group without license they should add pedals (which they did) and weak 0.25kW electric engine (which, they won't), so this is really motorbike for teenagers, otherwise they should ditch pedals and can put there stronger engine if it's intended for adults.
But AM vehicle category don't require pedals, so the pedals seem pointless.
1 kWh motorized bicycles do not require a license or vehicle registration here. You just need liability insurance on your bike.
Bikes which you described with 25kph/250W limit
Class 2 moped: 25kph/1kW - traffic insurance, license
Class 1 moped: 45kph/4kW - traffic insurance, license plate, license
A motorized bicycle (L1e-A) is allowed to power the motor regardless of pedalling and can do up to a 1 kW of continuous power and 25 km/h. A two-wheeled moped (L1e-B) can do 4 kW of continuous power and 45 km/h.
This however has pedals which is all about classifying as a moped.