Ask HN: Again: The “I want to do everything but end up doing nothing” dilemma
This thread is from 2015
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9049208
I have bookmarked it and read it sometimes. Is there a 2022 version of the thread we want to create? Things surely have changed a lot since 2015.
128 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 186 ms ] threadNot really. The only way to actually get things done is to do them, and that will never change. Planning and daydreaming is very satisfying and feels much easier than actually doing, but it's a dopamine trap. Plain old setting a schedule and applying self-discipline is the simplest way forward...
This is the most blunt, real, and effective advice that can be given.
It is very important to emphasize that daydreaming of doing everything (and all at once), is a dopamine trap! No matter how long one mentally masturbates on a beautiful idea, it’s only through charting a course, breaking the problem down, and going through the motions and the steps to completion, humbly and dutifully, that will yield any results.
Another commenter, unfortunately downvoted, also said something important:
> Never tell others what you gonna do unles you have done it.
This is equally important advice, as it falls in the dopamine trap category.
Namely, refrain from satisfying the creative urge merely by talking about it. Instead, act first, and talk about the results.
Goes without saying, but let’s say it anyway: of course this doesn’t mean that you should hide like a mad scientist; communication is crucial in creation. Just don’t spend all your time talking about all the nice things you’d have done, if you weren’t spending your time just talking about them while leaving them undone.
Also, if the thing you want to make has some sort of personal meaning or cause, that’s a great impetus.
And don’t forget to fail, and don’t be afraid to fail, either. Try, err, try again, err elsewhere, keep moving, keep learning, keep making.
It’s good fun!
>This is equally important advice, as it falls in the dopamine trap category.
I strongly disagree. Or at least caution that there is a trap on the other extreme.
I spent a lot trying to be consistent, not committing or vocalizing a plan until I was sure. This was a big part of paralysis and stagnation for me.
like you said, dont be all talk, but dont be afraid to take a position, communicate a desire, and try things. This is necessary to make progress in an uncertain world.
Just be upfront with yourself and others if you change your position. You dont need to be consistent, it is more important to be honest.
I think it was Warren Buffett who said, “Really successful people say no to almost everything.”
That seems to have been true of successful people from every time period that I’ve read about.
It was probably Derek Sivers, whom is mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that said: Early in your career, or when just starting something new - say "yes" to everything. You are collecting opportunities. Later once you have found or reached a sustainable level - then you can say "no" to everything.
Now I have all of that.
Decisions are often made for me as I prioritize meeting the demands of higher minimum income and time spent with family and kids.
For better or for worse, growing older and gaining extra responsibilities acts as a forcing function. You need to prioritize more ruthlessly.
Choosing what to spend time is harder! The opportunity cost increases as you have less time available to spend on yourself. Choosing, therefore, becomes a bigger gamble.
If you’re relatively free in time, you should come up with a framework on making decisions on what to work with. It will depend on your goals - making a business, learning an instrument, learning skills to further your career - whatever. Make a goal and act in ways that furthers your goal.
During covid times, I met my wife, we had a son together and now we're a digital nomad family. Having a family removed a whole range of choices that let me narrow into the obvious and not have to stress out about what to focus on. In a way it's been more liberating, to take on these constraints and responsibility. I know it sounds counterintuitive but I think Jocko got it right with "Discipline Equals Freedom".
The rough plan is Bali, Japan, Sri Lanka, Kerala(India).
Do you have any advice or tips?
My biggest question is how do you meet other digital nomad families? I've done a lot of solo travel, and on the way I'd occasionally meet a traveling family, but they were pretty rare.
Kerala sounds interesting, One place we went to recently was Bangalore and once we got used to the traffic, we enjoyed it. I've heard good things about Goa as well from a local tech entrepreneur friend.
I'm curious as to what it's like to fly with a 3-year-old. We've had to keep our flights short, below 4 to 5 hours max, which has been cool because we then had to visit certain places we might have flown over, so we've seen more countries along the way, albeit at a higher cost. I guess in the age of media devices, longer flights shouldn't be that difficult with kids that age?
I've realized that the boundaries have given me more discipline than when I had none.
Before kids, mortgage and a work visa, I would just pick something up and spend 4-5 weeks on a single thing before hitting a plateau. Then the going gets tough and there's a new thing which I could dig into right around the corner. Everything I did was at an unsustainable pace and it did broaden my horizons, but it was very much like dating.
First the commute ate up the first hobby, the kid ate up the next hobby, but then the pandemic kicked off the hobby mode all over again. I almost went back to the old approach of hobby-crazy, but I couldn't with two kids in the mix.
My rate of picking up new things have dropped to about 1.5 a year since 2020, but it's spread out onto a weekly schedule where I don't always have to drop the last thing I was doing to pick up something new. Also I no longer want to "get great" at things.
I still jump into new things without prioritization, but I no longer burn twice as bright for half as long in my hobbies.
Also the kids will drag you back in too - I'm going to go gokarting every weekend for the next year, because the alternative is sitting there in the bleachers with the phone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanban
If you peel away all the controversial things about scrum in software development you are left with "finish what you start". It's also a common practice in cafes and restaurants.
- figure out what you want - figure out how to get it
First point is the hardest. Since most of us don’t really know what we want. We might describe an incomplete picture at best. Hardly a clear vision. So start with what you don’t want and go from there.
Second point is about organizational skills. Research, plan, execute, iterate. Rinse and repeat.
Don’t forget to be kind to yourself. The world is has enough without an enemy within.
I’m currently reading The One Thing [0] and it’s actually making a lot of sense. Plan on giving it a try!
[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16256798-the-one-thing
It's not about quantity, but the quality of work you do. Less with good quality is better than more but bad quality.
So yes, the dilemma is real ;) Whoever wants to do everything comes up with dirty works, which could be counted as nothing !
If you really care about mental health and particularly your own, just cut on the consumption of online media to the bare minimum, and you'll experience improvement albeit gradual in your well-being.
The difference between desktop-first and mobile-first is far greater than I would have predicted a decade ago.
I think this is a large portion of it. Despite digital natives being very comfortable on mobile, There are still relatively higher barriers to effective communication on mobile.
Slower input, harder to review, harder to edit, ect.
- Travel around the world solo for years
- Find a wife, get married & have kids
- Build my dream website (https://dustinbrett.com/)
- Get a job in Big Tech as a self taught developer
It's been 10 years since I started living this way and it's worked out so far. Before living this way I had no real plans, just hopes.
Realize these are things that you get to try, not have to do
Prioritize a few items, ideally some short term and some long term.
Set aside the master list and work on your immediate tasks until they are complete you realize you dont want to complete them.
occasionally revisit the master list and update it.
”You want my advice? Make a list of everything you want now and spend the next twenty five years getting it, slowly, piece by piece.”
Since the world is liquid and constantly in movement, our interests and values will change as well which is ok.
I guess when you start feeling that whatever you are doing is `iffy`, its time to sit down and think.
Here is a service I always want: I'm in a prison cell. I cannot get out until the prison evaluates my progress on a target that I submitted for the service (say fully read a tech book and create a demo). I'd also setup a default end date which will be evaluated and confirmed by the prison. If I don't complete the target before the end date I get double charged for each day and food becomes shittier. Of course there is a hard deadline to make sure my bank account still exists afterwards.
And no, he should definitely not ruin the immersion and put some random default sorting in the blog folder. Bad suggestion.
Also happy to see you noticed that sorting does indeed work manually still, but on load it's not behaving.
Thanks for pushing me on this!
The existing bug: https://github.com/DustinBrett/daedalOS/issues/70
I'm on step 2. I did the solo travel thing for the past 8 years. Trying to find the wife.
I want a website exactly like that.
Congrats on your success!
We need more desktop environment / "OS" websites out there. I feel like one day they could be something more as technology is moving fast in the worlds of WebAssembly/AR/VR, so who knows what my site might be in 20-30 years. If you want to check out the source code it's open source, https://github.com/DustinBrett/daedalOS.
Thanks!
hats off
I haven't played Commander Keen in almost a decade. Fascinating to see someone port it into a website.
https://dustinbrett.com/?app=FileExplorer&url=/Users/Public/...
Seems like a proof-of-concept that an online platform for many old DOS games can be implemented... Guess I have a new project to add to my (very long) to-do list :)
Sounds a lot like Getting things Done method :)
I've also taken a lot of effort to keep everything client side. This makes hosting easier and also adds an interesting challenge of pushing the browser to the limits just to see what can be made within those confines.
The idea to turn my website into a desktop environment came out of me trying to think how to present all my various content to users, and thinking how it would be easier if they could just RDP into my machine and see everything locally. Also inspiration from sites like http://www.windows93.net/, https://windows96.net/ & https://aaronos.dev/.
Amazing work !
As for the former, I recommend taking notes diligently while studying/learning new topics and filing these notes appropriately where you make consulting the original material be it YT videos, online tutorials/posts, articles or books unnecessary since your notes are more than enough and are kept up-to-date accordingly; adding, removing or archiving as you deem necessary.
As for the latter, I struggled with this lately but I think that I made some progress to overcome this roadblock by making snap decisions on the spot by resorting to the old trick of "heads or tails" everytime I start to overthink a solution, and for more overwhelming alternatives, I built a custom randomizer that's fed a list of choices, and then spits the decision that I should make, and I comply with its wish enthusiastically every time.
I wouldn't say that this is the most efficient decision making process out there but for me action is always far better than inaction, and I don't think that perpetual state of deliberations and contemplation was any better as it hindered any progress to be made in the name of picking the most rational or efficient course of action to be taken which it didn't seem to emerge no matter how hard I tried to think a way out of it.
Simple example, happens often: my partner and I want to go out to eat, but can't make up our minds where. Take the top two choices and flip a coin. Then just see how you each feel about that decision the coin made. Often it reveals a stronger preference than anyone was aware of. In that case, disregard the coin's choice. And if it doesn't, then just follow the coin's choice, since you're not losing anything by it.
So many content I read, watch and my brain is never full of new things new topic new understanding but the biggest difficulty is recalling things when needed. Taking notes, summarising key points, and being able to reread it has a huge power to structure though and articulating idea between them. Also it’s avoid thing to stay in a vague memory in the brain. Also I use my notebook to write down any idea that cames to my mind anytime. Cause the brain is never stopping working, while I pop, while I walk the dog out, while I shop. Anytime I feel I have something interesting showing up I my mind I write it down.
Since almost 2 months. And I can say this simple act was the missing piece in my life.
https://sive.rs/donkey
25 year old me was stupid. He wanted things I don’t want anymore. I’m glad I wasn’t too effective at actually getting them.
30 year old me doesn’t want that. Once every few weeks is enough for him.
Older me knows that languages aren't something you 'learn' as they are something you join, that 'grad school' is pointless and that your advisor is everything, that 'judo' is one of many paths to a better mind and friendships, etc.
I know that sounds trite and Iroh-y, but it ends up being true. It's not the 'accomplishment' but the people that matter, including yourself. Focusing on the brass ring get you the ring, and not much else. Focusing on others get you a filled life.
I know people that are enormously successful, yet are empty holes. I know of one that has both. It's not a pastiche or a fable, it's very true. I've seen a lot of people die and leave us. And I've been able to reflect on their lives. The best way, to my eyes thus far, is focusing on others. Lifting up other people, getting in with groups of good people, and helping out as you are able, those people seemed to me to have had the best lives.
"I sit in my cubicle, here on the motherworld. When I die, they will put my body in a box and dispose of it in the cold ground. And in all the million ages to come, I will never breathe, or laugh, or twitch again. So won't you run and play with me here among the teeming mass of humanity? The universe has spared us this moment."
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri
I wanted to abandon "normal life" and live on a sailboat, so I developed healthy financial habits and a career in order to achieve that. During that journey, I met my now-wife. Now, I realize that living in a walkable community filled with trees and friends is more fulfilling than the liveaboard fantasies of my youth... but I was able to leverage the real work I put in towards that original dream towards what I want today (a satisfying home, traveling with my family, etc).
Understanding progress vs activity, and 3 types of effort.
Rock metaphor: The goal is to deliver a big, shiny rock to the top of the mountain. You can (1) move the rock, (2) polish the rock, and (3) other distractions.
* Push the rock up the hill. You have to keep pushing until you get to the next flat land. If you stop whenever you’re interrupted, the rock will roll back down to the bottom of the hill. Requires a chunk of undistracted time (Cal Newport Deep Work, etc).
* Polish the rock. You can engage in this type of effort well, even with frequent interruption. Polish for 10 minutes, answer a phone call, polish another area, go to lunch, polish more, repeat until finished.
* Other stuff. Sometimes required maintenance (paying bills, paperwork, etc), but often unhelpful distraction.
Getting more tactical:
* Bucket selection - pick the right buckets, and right number of buckets (not too many, you can only move a few rocks each day)
* Move rocks in each bucket consistently (no starved buckets)
Summarized: Move rocks, in a few areas, that are important to you (not to other people)
To illustrate, my buckets are: day job, freelance work, trading, family, and health. Every time I’ve been “off” in life, one of those buckets has been starved (workaholic, neglect family), or I’ve had too many buckets, or one bucket explodes (family health crisis, newborn child, etc), or efforts become distracted and while much activity happens, no rocks move.
Most of this I derived from The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker, originally published in 1966 (so nothing new since 2015).
On the opposite end, there are specialized applications, and in between there are application areas with specialized tools, infrastructure, software components and whatnot.
You're simply not going to be an expert in every application area. Realize that, and stop trying!
Buckle down and specialize. Be an expert in some subset of the abstract core, and its realization in some choice of platforms and tools that you follow, and beyond that, pick just a few application areas. Have a main area or two, and then some fringe areas that you are interested in that are little bit on the side.
You can switch application areas in mid-career. Being good in one application area is better for being able to dive into another than just knowing a smattering about many areas without any expertise.
Going far and deep in any application area as a developer will give you the skills to be able to work on almost anything.
Any code base in any application area has lots of code that is not specifically in that are which needs general expertise and experience; you can make meaningful contributions to those areas almost from the get go.
In my university time, I was crazy into OS programming: systems programming on Unix, and kernel level. I was also crazy into computer graphics. Alain Fournier (RIP, cancer) tried to award me 110% in CS414 at UBC, but he reported that the antiquated mainframe wouldn't take the value. Compilers and languages interested me, but not as much as today. I used Lex and Yacc regularly, and in one contract project I created a billing system with a custom query language. I had an interest in implementing data structures as well.
There were things I was not into, like for instance databases or anything having to do with AI, or programming language semantics (other than taking one compiler construction course, for which I lacked prerequisites); when some buddies started on about what they were doing with, say, Prolog, I didn't follow that. I was impressed, but my plate was full of my current interests to be actually distracted and derailed. I had this intuition that life is long, and there will be plenty of time to get into other things, and that as long as you're constantly learning, you're preparing yourself for the stuff you don't yet know.
The backlog weighs heavily on my current efforts. So starting from scratch ditches the burden. Then, once I've made actual forward progress, I can go back to the archives and figure out how to work the new stuff in.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33683106
1) Pick one or two things at a time to get good at. When you start feeling like you've pretty much got that nailed, then pick some other way to challenge yourself. Ideally one intellectual challenge and one physical challenge.
1a) This becomes much easier under pressure. For example, instead of just "oh I want to learn something" it needs to be in the service of some larger goal. Maybe it's for your job, maybe it's for something you're doing as a hobby, but it needs to be a Project, not learning as an end in itself.
2) Incremental progress is the only kind of progress that exists. Make incremental plans. Celebrate small victories.
It really comes down to just doing and let the act of doing find your way.
[0] https://tinyhabits.com/
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_facilitation
[2] https://doubleapp.xyz/blog/how-to-body-double
For example to become a successful entrepreneur (top), you need to understand how to run a startup (mid), raise money from investors (mid), understand your users (mid), and that comes from understanding your cash flow (low), cold mailing tens of VCs (low), interview a user (low).
Deciding and committing to a top goal is the hard part in my opinion. It means to abandon the other (incompatible) goals you'd like to pursue. But focus is the best way to go forward.
"Wanting to have done something" and "wanting to DO something" are very different. E.g. "I'd like to be able to play Claire de Lune on piano", vs the deep work of becoming intimately familiar with every single note and phrase of the piece. The latter necessarily involves getting obsessed for a while; you don't be able to do it if you don't find something deeply stimulating about the specific piano piece.
A lot of the things I've "wanted to do" I really just wanted to have done—I wanted to be able to do something, I wanted to know if I was capable of it. But I didn't really want to do it. I didn't really care. I just thought I was capable of all kinds of things and wanted to delight in verifying that. It had a sort of superficiality to it—my reasons for wanting all these things were not compelling enough to drive me to actually do them.
(Especially faced with the immediate rewards offered by video games—games and things like that change the "weights" on your internal reward system; you can feel this if you just think about the game, it feels like everything else shifts out of focus and the anticipation of the dopamine prize expands to fill your view.)
When you're in school it's relatively easy to do whatever you're told, and it doesn't really matter if you care about it. But accessing this sense of internally-generated energy that can drive you towards things that are important is a completely different skill, and you can't force it.
So either:
* figure out what you deeply, truly want to DO, and do that (which may be completely different from the things you enjoy imagining HAVING done)
* or, think deeply about what you want to "have done", and figure out why it excites you, and focus in on that, activate your curiosity for it, and let that draw you in
At least for me "have done" goals are a trap. They are an endless list which will never be satisfied.
Figuring out what you "want to do" leads to immediate satisfaction and motivation leading to a fulfilling life.
- We all want to start a startup, with a caveat that the vast majority of us don't want to sacrifice our time, energy, mental and physical health to get to the an exponential outcome with extreme costs. But the daydreaming and the lure of successes we see around us makes us think its all there is.
- Perhaps instead, we can just focus on doing the craft that we actually enjoy doing as a process to get to mediocre (and sometimes extreme) outcomes since most just crave freedom of choice, not the $.
I kinda give up and wish I lived in a prison that just forced me to achieve anything I have wanted to do. Maybe I'm not actually interested in all those but at least I get more trophies to show.
The "problem" is that it's something that you can't see in others, whereas wealth, assets etc. are for everybody to see and so people start competing to get those things.
There lies the difference however, to call yourself a competitive person you must be able to compete without ever knowing how you are faring against others, that's the ultimate form of competition. That's also how life begins. A Spermatozoon doesn't know and won't ever know the position of other spermatozoa, if they are ahead, behind etc. in the race to get to the egg. They only know that they have to swim as fast as they possibly can.
Likewise humans can't possibly know the amount of time that other humans are spending living in the moment, but, like sperm, you don't need to because your goal is to get as close as you can to 100%
2) For projects too, doing a little bit is better than failing to do a lot. Ditto, I've made a lot of progress on projects, especially icky ones like minor house repairs (but also e.g. personal coding projects that became hard to do quickly after my early 20ies due to other things) by committing for 10-30 minutes at a time and accepting that it might take me a year to finish.
3) Life-scale timing. That's something I really wish someone told me when I was 25, although it probably only applies to exercise. I got serious about training for climbing (my hobby) when I was 34... that is too late, and now I'm 38 and I get injured easily from intense training. I wish I did that earlier and did whatever I did then, now :)
4) Getting rid of hassles and not introducing new hassles that are not worth it. Something as simple as choosing devices/tools/appliances/building materials - how much maintenance worry does it require? How much manual labor does it add vs a more expensive/less pretty/... option? To where to live - how long do you want to spend driving around places/etc.? Feynman's bio where he describes putting on chains and his thoughts about that were very instructive for me. Then, larger choices, like I am the type of person who would enjoy skiing, but I find skiing to be logistically complicated and generally a giant hassle, so I can find similar hobbies, like climbing, with much less hassle and cost. But also larger life decisions, after looking at tons of people (from close friends/family to coworkers) with kids I choose not to have them, it's just not worth it, your whole life becomes one project with (for me) very low reward. Ditto about buying a house - an interesting tradeoff for me, cause I'd prefer semi-rural living with condo-level hassle level, but they don't build condos in rural areas ;)