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Ask HN: Why not moving on (For those laid off)

1 points by hinata08 ↗ HN
Hello !

I'm not living in the United States, but I've recently read a lot of articles about layoffs at companies like GAFAMs and Tweeter.

I've also read a lot of comments about former employees looking for jobs in the same area and field, and who are sometimes struggling to keep a H1B visa.

Why would you keep a H1B visa or stay in the same place after a layoff ?

I had myself been caught in layoffs in the field that I originally studied, in 2020. And jobs that still existed back then were not well compensated. So I decided that I would not play that game with companies. I changed of field, as well as city, and I'm now doing a snazzy job in a place that oozes companies and lacks engineers. (I don't know how recruiters dealt with not hiring new engineers in 2020 in my original field, and don't care, as I'm well compensated and in a lovely area now)

So why do you all struggle to stay in California, despite its peak being behind ? Why don't you move to Europe, India, Canada, or any place that is still hiring a lot ? Also, why would you stay in IT ? I'm myself in IT for the previously mentioned reason, but I would have gone back to my field if massive layoffs were considered (or I would just move to MTL)

If companies say they don't really need IT engineers in a place, just move where they are publicly happy to hire, or change of field !

EDIT : I must add I'm not advocating for layoffs and I'm not blaming workers. It's just some kind of mutual workforce destruction deal. "You companies really don't need engineers ? Fine, we will just work in another field and loose our knowledge"

9 comments

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jstx1
> just move where they are publicly happy to hire, or change of field

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33518496

You're describing big and difficult changes so obviously they won't be most people's first choice. I also have no idea which fields you think are willing to hire so many differently-qualified and differently-experienced people right now, and are offering remotely similar compensation.

hinata08
I'm not saying it's easy.

I have myself lost a lot in this process, and it took about two years to learn a new skill set.

But now it's over, I realize I'm maybe better off than if I had a job in my field back then.

hinata08
if you can't get a new field, go to a new city

Places like the Netherlands, Barcelona, Munich, Montréal, and Nice are still struggling to hire IT workers, for example.

jstx1
Sure, I'll ask my wife to quit her job even though her income is the only one we have right now, I'll explain to my children that they'll have to leave school and never see their friends again, we'll say goodbye to all of our family and friends, we'll leave our entire support network, and we'll spend a lot of money to move to a country halfway across the world where none of us speak the language and we don't know anyone because this week Berlin happens to have more open job postings on LinkedIn than San Francisco.
gregjor
And they will continue to struggle. Getting a work permit and visa for a laid-off US citizen, or (worse) a laid off H1-B worker, presents some huge barriers. Americans can't just fly to the Netherlands or Barcelona or even Montreal and take a job. And the language problem -- few Americans speak a second language.
hinata08
>Americans can't just fly to the Netherlands or Barcelona or even Montreal and take a job

they pretty much can, they're lacking so many ppl that everyone can have a visa

> And the language problem

it doesn't exist. SW companies and large companies work in English anyway, because they work across borders. Several engineers around me have no proficiency at all in anything but English, and we're spending more time introducing them to local politics and folklore than language

I have studied and worked with ppl from the whole world but North America. I almost got hired in Munich without speaking german. And former classmates work in all of these places, despite initially not speaking the language either

Btw, you can't say you have worked if you haven't been in some online meeting with French ppl struggling to speak in English

gregjor
Unless you know something I don't, foreigners need to get a work permit and usually a residency permit or long-stay visa to take a job. They need to find a job and get the employer to sponsor the visa/permit. Most countries have age and education requirements depending on the kind of job, i.e. Netherlands and Canada skilled worker visas. The process can take months. Some countries will only issue work permits and visas to foreigners before they enter the country.

Looking for work while visiting on a tourist visa or visa waiver may violate the terms of the tourist visa/visa waiver, depending on the country. Many countries explicitly forbid using a tourist visa (like the 90 day Schengen visa waiver U.S. citizens get on arrival) for purposes of employment or seeking employment. Likewise tourists from Spain, Netherlands, Canada, etc. cannot come to the US as tourists and look for jobs. Enforcement of that rule probably weak, granted.

American citizens taking jobs in other countries will get paid lower salaries than they would for the same job in the US. Sometimes much lower. And US citizens must still pay US taxes regardless of where the live and work. US medical insurance rarely covers care overseas.

The salary differential alone probably explains why many more European and Canadian citizens look for jobs in the US, while relatively few Americans work for foreign companies overseas. Add in the hassles and restrictions with a spouse or partner, children, pets.

In the workplace English may rule, but Americans will struggle with language in every other context. Americans who have lived/worked overseas frequently report language problems as their reason for not staying. Probably no accident that the UK and Canada attract the most American foreign employees.

I have US citizenship and have worked in the UK with a work permit, which cost the employer a significant amount to obtain and required a lot of paperwork. I had to wait in the US for the visa. I have freelanced from many countries for US companies and met Americans working or trying to work overseas, the process ranges from easy to impossible, depending on the person's skills, education, connections, patience. I know that very few foreign jobs pay as much as the same job in the US, especially in tech/software.

hinata08
visas are really easy to get in here There are even Russian ppl at the office

The whole world is not like the UK or USA, with restrictive and old policies. And your family can get a visa if you get one.

Also, paycheck might be lower, but you get public medical healthcare, cheap trains, and more public services than in the USA, so the comfort is about the same in the end.

My point was that I don't get why skilled workers from the whole world (like South America, Asia, Africa, the middle east, and even "closed" countries like Russia and China) can move in here when they only speak English at first, while North Americans are never seen.

Life can't just about the paycheck or not being ok with learning new languages.

gregjor
People generally look for work and immigrate to places with more opportunity, better pay, safety, quality of life. Americans generally don't perceive most other countries as significantly better for them, if they look into moving overseas at all. And we're trapped in a citizenship-based tax system that adds complexity.

Unlike Europeans and Asians, Americans can't get to another country by plane or train in a couple of hours. Only about a third of Americans have a passport, and that number only went up fairly recently because after 9/11 we needed passports to go to Canada or Mexico.

Personally I live out of the USA most of the time but I work for US companies. Jobs I've seen from foreign companies offer very low salaries compared to the US, and I have yet to freelance for a non-American company because of my US rates.

Whether language presents a real barrier or not (my experience as a native English speaker tells me I can get by almost anywhere), Americans perceive language and cultural differences as possible problems, again probably because few Americans travel overseas at all, and when they do they tend to stick to tourist-oriented destinations.

Anecdotally I made as many friends from Estonia and Finland as I did Americans, and many more from Germany, France, UK, when I lived in SE Asia. Even in Paris and London Americans seem fairly scarce compared to other nationalities, weird considering the US population compared to that of most other countries.