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Second-world child - Need Advice

34 points by ced ↗ HN
I'm Canadian, but I live in Turkey since last December. Yesterday I was chatting with a kid on the street. His story was not super-sad, but still. He's working every day after school for about 5-6$. He uses that money to buy bread for his family (the bread here is horribly white, it's not a great idea). Some days he doesn't eat. He could be a smart kid, but his response-time was slow, and he had that glaze in his eyes, presumably from the bad nutrition. He was also awfully short for a 16 year-old.

He has 5 brothers, the older 2 dropped out of school already. Here's the interesting bit: he wants to be an electrical engineer. Ambitious. From what I can tell, his chances of getting into uni are very, very slim. It's competitive. At the same time, if he makes it, he can probably get state support, and he has a shot at a decent living.

He was very enthusiastic about computers. There are cheap internet cafes here, but his English is very limited.

I don't have much illusions about his chances of pulling himself out of this on his own, even with the best advice in the world. Still, it's worth a try, so I took his email. So far, I'm thinking:

- Learn to read English.

- Replace the bread with bulgur. It has a good price/nutrition ratio AFAIK.

I also thought of WOW gold farming, and pointing him to python.org. It seems far-fetched though. In Turkey, you can't get a job without a diploma. Any ideas?

35 comments

[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 84.5 ms ] thread
mixmax
Respect to you for actually doing what a lot of people are thinking.

That said, I see the problem, and its not easy to solve on a one-child basis. There might, however be another way. What about setting up some small software shop? one used computer in a shed somewhere, with 5 kids using it at different times around the clock. Start them out with some simple stuff, like mechanical turk, and move them on. Maybe to python.org as you suggested. Eventually the will (hopefully) get up to speed. Once they know some english and some python (or PHP or whatever) things will start to progress. It might even be a viable business, and it doesn't cost much to set up.

ced
I'm not really doing anything so far, short of sending him a "quit smoking and good luck" message...

I worry about the food issue, since concentration problems is a big deal in learning. He's not doing well in school so far, but he really didn't strike me as limited in that regard. Your idea is interesting though. Maybe I could get my own appartment and set up a room out there eventually.

There's a lot of these kids around though, so I should have some advice ready even if I won't commit to helping them any more.

comatose_kid
Yeah, the food problem must be solved first. Is there some way I could send you some money (say via paypal) you could use to buy food for him?

Longer term, assuming he has access to a computer, he should apply to kiva.org.

ced
Thanks, that's very nice... He is living in another city than mine (I was commuting) so I will likely not see him in person again. Plus, I'm leaving Turkey soon for India, I'll spend 5-6 months over there. There will be plenty of opportunities I'm sure.

I don't think just giving him money outright would be a smart move though. He's a teenager who smokes, and plays computer games (he said 1 lira/day, so 80 cents). I don't think there are many teenagers who could hold on to 500$ and budget their way out of the hole. Even giving it piece-meal would have me worried that it'll be wasted.

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comatose_kid
Your concerns are valid - if it were to work, you'd have to parcel out the money daily (or just buy food for him).

Since you're going to India, I'll take this opportunity to mention that the best way to support smart, underprivileged children in India is to donate to http://www.angiras.org.

netcan
Thanks for the link. They need an upgrade to their website. What they say they are about is pretty much exactly the type of thing I would like to support. But, I can't get enough information to either make a decision or actually donate from their one page site.

I have been thinking that a 'Kiva for Education' could be a great idea. I'm sure there's something out there. If anyone has a link please share.

comatose_kid
Great point about the website - they need to be clearer about how much of the donation goes to administration. I'm sure there are other improvements possible as well. Please give me any feedback on what stopped you from donating, and I'll mention that the next time I see them (they're relatives of my wife). Heck, I should probably just redo the site for them.
netcan
Sure I'd be happy to.

To support, One would need a way to:

.. get more info/contact details/donation method (an email address?) ..understand what it is they want/need (in kind donations, ongoing support, one off donations, earmarked donations, full scholorships)

To decide to support it would be useful to answer some basic questions.

What Universities are being sponsored? What does the scholorship include? What are the general selection guidelines? What are the aims of the cause? etc.

Heck, I should probably just redo the site for them.

Don't leave them hanging. I've met a bunch of organisations that have had work 'donated' to them & then been abandoned. They are stuck with a site they can't get much use out of. Such a pity when the ability of charities to connect online with people has such potential.

They sponsor engineering, CS & BA students? Why not get some help from them. Maybe see about setting them up with a good, easy to pass around CMS & let their students do it. (maybe offer to supervise) Let the BA guys apply to Google, MSN, Yahoo, etc. for some advertising credits.

*on a side note, the info they did give got me curious. They peaked in 2003. Why? What happened.

comatose_kid
Thanks so much for the excellent feedback. I've composed an email and sent it to them. I'll let you know how it goes.

Oh, and I doubt I'd leave them hanging - they're family after all :)

eru
And you should be very careful not to create perverse incentives.
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ram1024
i think dropping computers and internet access on poor countries is a great idea for them to bootstrap themselves into the 21st century.

i mean as long as their not limiting their options to gold-farming... (sadpants}

netcan
I wonder what the effect is though. I think a lot of people romanticise the world. Hungry childhood, unappeasable drive, learning to read from a half burnt book, learning to engineer by sneaking into a junk yard at night, every thread that can be used to claw out of poverty pulled, no opportunity missed. All those novels. All those biographies. All those stories.

It's easy to believe (as I write this, I do) that there are thousands of brilliant minds bursting with potential that can be unleashed with just the smallest scrap of opportunity. A thousand OLPCs dropped on poor children could do the trick.

But I think reality is harsher. I am not trying to put down efforts. And I certainly believe there are things that can be done.

The internet as an agent of globalisation, certainly has a lot of (yet unrealised) equalising power. But tapping it might be trick & take time.

ram1024
yes. i believe the reality is there's a lot of mediocre people waiting to happen in hungry nations as well. while striving to help is awesome, and people should be commended for their efforts, the individuals that arrive to change the world will still be few and far between no matter how much assistance is lent.

it's truly a hard matter to gauge accurately

koraybalci
why not buying him a python book in Turkish? I know they exist. and yes you can get a computer related job in Turkey even if you don't have a diploma, pretty easily.. as a technician of course.
cstejerean
I tried reading programming books in Romanian when I lived there and it made me cringe. I think fluency in English helps tremendously in a programming career and the earlier you start the easier it is to learn.
koraybalci
I agree.. but you also expect a poor teenager (who can't afford university education) to master second language alone so that he can teach himself programming.. well that's questionable imho..
ced
I think it comes down to having an interest in it. Do you think that the English-only preparatory year in Turkey works for most people?

You don't need to master it either. Merely being able to read it is enough.

You're Turk, right? Doesn't the state support students from poor families?

netcan
English has become a key of sorts.

Most DIY education requires English.

jmatt
Maybe it's just me but I would recommend that he start with a classic CS book and work back to python and the like. Something like "The C Programming Language". I learned more with a book like this than any modern ruby or python book. Plus the world will need C programmers for a long time. Knowing C is one of those skills that will be useful anywhere. If you know C you arguably can learn C++, C# or Java quickly and easily. And you'll have a respectable fundamental understanding of how computers work. Though I do agree that this is specific to this case. If it were a kid in high school in Northern California... it may be a different story.

The C Programming Language, Second Edition by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie

Turkish: C Programlama Dili, Sistem Yayincilik, ISBN 975322312-9.

http://netlib.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cbook/

Dilpil
C = C++ = Java = C# = Perl = Visual Basic ect ect save some funny syntax
markessien
People need to find out for themselves what they like the best. You like PCs, he spoke about PCs, you assume it's the best thing for him. If you find a kid who is a bit slow, why would you put him in a profession that tends to attract pretty bright people? And he is shackled compared to the rest of us PC users - we have steady computer access, comfortable homes and all that. However could he learn python when he has to work all day to $6, which I assume is essential for his family?

How about helping him find a training as an electrician? Let him start on the easy stuff and then know if he wants to progress to the more difficult stuff. It takes years to get to the point where you can actually make money with computer skills, and that won't solve his current problems.

If this guy is a friendly sort of guy, then teach him how to communicate with foreigners through jokes or so on.

You can't change the world. Just do the little you can.

ced
You like PCs, he spoke about PCs, you assume it's the best thing for him

No, I don't.

Apart from that, you're right. Python is not a great idea. At the same time, it could have worked for me if I'd been in his place. Maybe. I posted here because I'm short on ideas.

I think he's slow from the bad food, not fundamentally slow. He doesn't work all day, he goes to high school. It's not that desperate. He striked me as having drive. Maybe with the right advice he could turn things around slowly?

gaius
I am pretty sure Turkey is first-world - it's a member of NATO. Not that there are such things as first- and second- worlds really; third-world meant "neither NATO nor Warsaw Pact" when it was first coined. Now it just means any undeveloped nation.
eru
Let's say 'emerging market'.
pavelludiq
Im pretty poor too(and from the same region). I managed pretty well, though some money was invested in my education when i was a kid(English lessons). Poverty sucks, it either builds your character, or it sucks the humaneness out of you.

My advice to your friend is to not drop out. I have a friend who dropped out. He was also bright, and ambitious. He worked as a car mechanic for a year, i believe he went back to school.

He just needs to not give up, if he is interested in electronics, he could try and find some repairman he can help out(sort of like an apprenticeship).

felipe
I am Brazilian, so I certainly empathize with your post. If I was you, I would actually try a different route: Why not teach him how to fix / troubleshoot computers first?

1) It does not require English proficiency nor a diploma

2) It's more fun for kids because it deals with hardware, parts, quick software troubleshooting (instant reward)

3) He can make money immediately by providing services to locals (the internet cafe, the local bakery, etc...)

4) It's a gateway job for customer support or even programming

You could be the sales guy for the local "IT kid", and help him to score his first "contracts" with local small businesses. Then you can coach him in simple troubleshooting, etc...

lsc
if it's possible there, it's a great idea. It's how I got my start, though I grew up in the USA. I started by fixing computers for my parent's friends for a low fee.

the hard part for this kid will be acquiring the skills. he needs his own computer to practice on. If he can find 'junk' parts, those provide excellent practice (or, at least that is what I learned on.)

Long-term, something that can be done remotely might be a better idea, but after about three (paid) years of fixing PCs I was able to make the jump to Linux administration- it's a pretty common career upgrade path, and (at least in the USA) is commonly done by people with no formal education.

lsc
I've hired many a foreigner to work remotely, paying more than (USian) minimum wage. However, key here is comprehension of written English. (well, to work for me. And to work for me, you have to convince me that you are smarter than I am. I imagine those are different for other people.) I don't care about spoken English. Plenty of ways around that problem, I don't want to talk with you on the phone anyhow.

Of course, right now I have a huge number of options in my price range, so until more people catch on to this 'location doesn't matter' fact, he's got to get good before I will be interested. But there are many people willing to hire across borders.

Obviously, if he doesn't eat, that's his biggest problem. I don't have any good advice there. It sounds like you are up on the price/nutrition ratios of local foods. But to become a good nerd, he needs a computer. I remember my first computer. my dad gave me a giant book 'Upgrading and repairing PCs' by mark minasi. good book. he said read it, and he'd get me the parts for a computer. I did, I convinced him that I did, and a few weeks later the parts for a thoroughly obsolete (but completely loaded) 80286 were spread over my room when I got home from school one day. I mean, it was like '93 or '94, so even with the full megabyte of ram (it had a add-on ISA card) it was thoroughly obsolete. But it was mine, and I was able to get a shell account on a local BBS that had internet access. it was one of the formative events of my childhood.

Of course, I dono if it's possible to get 'free computers' in that part of the world. I mean, around here you spend some time looking in likely dumpsters and you will find some good stuff. (I have a friend who has a nice collection of obsolete RISC medium iron that he got out of dumpsters at the local university) I don't know how it is in Turkey.

I think learning how to be a support monkey is a very good first step (well, it's what I did first. And it was awesome. I remember I looked forward to getting out of school every day and going to work.) And it's usually an easy thing to get into, if you know a little bit and you are willing to work for menial wages. (my first job was fixing computers, but it paid maybe 80% of minimum wage.)

Of course, I don't know how much my experience applies. I grew up in America, and while my jeans came from the salvation army, and I've eaten my share of rice and beans, I've never had to worry about not having enough to eat. I do think that having a computer to take apart is important. Thinking of your computer as a 'black box' appliance is an expensive luxury.

eru
I lived in Turkey for some months, too. I can only confirm your observations.
netcan
Maybe it's time for a YC philanthropic intake.
btw0
I am shocked things in second-world countries is so much worse than those in even a third-world country in which I am currently living. It seems that everybody owns a computer here.
ced
Most people in Turkey are doing ok. It's just that the bottom level is larger than it is in the US, and there is less support. A person who is much above average in the US can find a way out. Over here, it takes really exceptional qualities.
raquo
I know a lot of people here in Russia, aged anywhere between 10 - 60, who are in some way severely limited in opportunities because they do not speak English. I'd advise learning it as a must - it simply "opens too many doors" to be ignored.

In Russia, in the 90-s people who spoke English more or less decently were so rare in some regions that they were hired mostly for their knowledge of the language. Not sure about Turkey, though.