Ask HN: How do you protect your children from internet addiction?

286 points by Archipelagia ↗ HN
I'm using "internet addiction" here in a loose sense. Think of all modern hyper-engaging online services: TikTok, MMORPGs, social media, video games, porn, etc.

I think HN users might be especially aware of how addicting these can be, so do you take any precautions to help your children avoid falling prey to them?

295 comments

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Enable them to do more real-life stuff. Kids see technology as a bottomless pit of fulfillment, which is mostly true if your alternatives are frolicking outside or wishing you could buy something cool. If you instead provide them the means to make/do something they're proud of, they'll probably have a healthier relationship with social media and the internet. Get them a sewing kit, buy that bin of used Legos on Ebay, or get the breadboarding stuff they keep asking about. If you give a kid an iPhone, they're going to be constantly attached to it simply on the basis that it's the most expensive thing in their possession.

Obviously though, you're not going to protect your children from themselves. IMO, the best you can do as a parent is teach them healthy means of self-expression.

I don't them use my devices outside of school projects and keep them busy doing things outside the house.

I realize this is easier for me than most as my oldest is only 13, we homeschool, and we live in a very rural area with high community engagement. Meaning the social pressure to be online just isn't currently there.

Once they have a job and can buy their own devices they can do what they please. Hopefully, the disdainful tone I use when explaining social media companies to them fully sinks in by then.

Hopefully, the disdainful tone I use when explaining social media companies to them fully sinks in by then.

Yeah kids are famous for doing everything their parents say ;)

Oh I have no doubts they'll give everything a whirl. There's a certain amount of suffering required before you start reconsidering lessons you had previously written off.
My plan is to describe things I dont want them to do in a very "been there, done that way", as if to say "I mean you can do it if you want, but...".

I feel like if I come across too 1950s it'll just make it seem too forbidden/cool. I mean just look how naughty those hippies were.

Screen time limits, and try to offer lots of things to do. This is a lot easier with disposable income. But without a simple bicycle and nearby park can go a long way.

But the games, videos and internet are very addictive: when I was young it was just the dopamine hit of playing a game. But now it is culture. Friends at school are on Roblox, Discord etc. This makes it more challenging and more fights and begging etc.

A hard one. As a parent a small part of the role is to be the mean unpopular person sometimes ;-)

This is something I think about a lot with 3 kids. I personally believe that we need a balance between allowing devices/internet (because this is 2022) and restricting few things.

For me, social media is an absolute No and I will fight my kids until I can't. For example, there is no way I am going to let my 8 year old do Tick Tok or Snapchat and what not. It is way too toxic even for adults let alone a child who has not fully developed mentally and emotionally yet. However, we restrict by talking to them openly about why we don't think it is a good idea and then show them that we are still giving them these other freedoms. Most kids appreciate that if you are honest instead of just saying No.

I don't think you can restrict using apps or parental controls because those can be bypassed once kids get smarter. We have 0 parental controls on the devices they use. I want my kids to learn the difference between good and bad by having access and freedom but the right information.

On the flip side, we don't restrict them from doing iPad/laptop to play certain types of games (.e.g word puzzle) or even minecraft etc. We don't restrict them from doing things on internet like google slides for creativity etc. We don't restrict them from watching Youtube or movies for kids under our supervision.

The other thing is to not give them too much opportunity to do devices/internet. If they are busy with an activity, they don't care. If they have nothing to do, they "get bored" and want to be on their devices. So create enough opportunity for them to do activities ideally something that doesn't involve internet/devices etc. So far, our kids have been very good with boundaries and the freedom they have to do things. I know that if you restrict everything, that won't work.

I tend to agree. My kids have to earn device time by doing other things. We use ScreenTime with my son to keep him honest. Also had to setup a network for the kids that turns off between 11pm and 7am, caught them on devices late at night a few times. You need to give them opportunities but you also need to keep them honest, sometimes that takes limits.
Encourage their interests in good things like physical activities, science, technology, books, music, theater.
Internet is technology. It's a blurry line... When mine come up with creative ways to circumvent Internet access restrictions (e.g. use mobile phone as hotspot for the laptop, because for that I had set a limited time window in the router) I'm happy to see a future hacker on one hand, and really pissed on the other hand because I seem to have ended up in an arms race.
You teach them about moderation, you give them the tools to make their own choices, and you protect them from the obvious/bad outcomes that would cause irreparable harm.

So like, add a network filter for gore/porn up to a certain age, and try to do a good job of showing how to invest their time as a reward function rather than the instant gratification path.

But ultimately, babying them will prevent them from growing, and the moment they get out of your clutches (how they'll see it) they'll binge/overindulge and not have anyone to stop the irreversible mistakes from happening.

Limiting technology access creates a perverse relationship between the kid and tech. If you want your kid to see technology as a tool, not as a reward, you can't treat it like a reward. It's super easy, but it sets the wrong example.

Strongly, strongly agree.

I think of it similar to the issue of college students and drinking. Freshman with highly restrictive parents are at a greater risk of getting alcohol poisoning because they try to "make up for lost time" or something when they move out.

My parents tried to limit a bunch of stuff in our house while I was growing up, and it never ever worked. Once I figured out self-regulation I was much better off.

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I'd say may restrictive parents don't teach them about how to use alcohol responsibly because they're not allowed to have it. It's obviously bad when Mr chug chug chug is teaching you
Lego. Still works every time here.
After having spent a fair amount of time using various different tools to attempt to control their screen time, my conclusion is that it was a mistake to have any screens in the house in the first place.

A library of great books, good games, craft and art materials, and a collection of musical instruments would have been the best thing for my kids I'm thinking. Screens just make them addicted and miserable.

> A library of great books, good games, craft and art materials, and a collection of musical instruments would have been the best thing for my kids I'm thinking. Screens just make them addicted and miserable.

I agree in principle, and one of the saddest things to see is the pile of all these wonderful diversions sitting ignored while Youtube plays. (See my other comment about how we have essentially banned Youtube in my house for this reason).

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Completely agreed. They may be left out by some peers for not being up to date on internet culture, but they will have much richer lives and personalities for having spent that time with all of the things you listed.

It's a difficult path, and not for everyone, but I think it's the right one for people willing to do it.

> A library of great books, good games, craft and art materials, and a collection of musical instruments would have been the best thing for my kids I'm thinking. Screens just make them addicted and miserable.

Are these mutually exclusive? If those items are around, and kids are taught how to make use of them, they will use them. Restricting screen time might be a necessity but it's less of a sore spot if it can easily be substituted and the habits are ingrained.

A screen is just a way to display information… I haven’t owned a physical book since 2008 and yet I read 2 or 3 books a month (thx kindle). I got my own pc in 1990 when I was 5… I had a NES where a player the same 6 games for years (and sometimes for hours… I think the amount of time O spent playing WoW pales in comparison of the time I spent playing super Mario bros as a kid). None of the above caused me any issue… it actually helped me find my life purpose (writing software). The problem is the addictivness of some of nowadays content (like reword based mobile games, tiktok, YouTube, etc.). Allowing your kids to use screens to consume the right stuff is a good thing
What is so frustrating is that the schools have pushed this on us. We were mostly screen-free in our house, until our oldest started middle school. Now she has homework she has to do on her Chromebook every night. Only of course she pulls it out and is playing games every time she has a chance. I can't take it away because she has to get her homework done, but I can't control what she accesses either and it is destroying her interest in anything else.
My kid's almost three. From day one, we've implemented a zero screen policy. That means no phones, tablets, computers, TV (don't own one), etc.

We've read to her since day one and she loves books now and her spoken/listening language skills are way ahead for her age. Wife speaks to her in her native language so she's growing up bilingual too. Wife takes her to parks, mommy and me classes where they have story time, sing, physical activities, arts and crafts and free play with toys. At home, we expect her to be able entertain herself with toys, books, backyard, etc.

It's not perfect, but at a parenting class, I heard screens described as crack cocaine for kids, so I'm keeping mine away from that shit for as long as I can. She seems to be doing fine without them and though she's curious when she sees one, she doesn't ask/whine for them.[0] I don't even plan to expose educational app games to her. So many other richer ways to learn in 3D space. I highly doubt she'll fall behind for lack of exposure to screens.

[0] The most screen exposure she gets is with others. People these days don't seem to be able to socialize and interact without their phones.

What do you do with her when you are out with friends? Restaurants, etc?
Sit quietly, talk, color, maybe read. Is this hard to believe? We did that.
A 2-3 year old sitting there quietly talking, coloring or reading? Yeah it's very very very hard to believe. Even if the child is an absolute saint there's such things as sensory overload.
Are you guys being serious? It would be a cold day in hell before my children sat at a dinner table with an ipad for entertainment! A 3 year old talking, colouring, playing games etc before food arrives is absolutely normal and acheivable!
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What works for some doesn't work for everyone. Parents should do what works for them and their kids, without judgement.
Seeing as parents were able to bring kids with them to places long before screens even existed, it's definitely not just a matter of what does or doesn't work. Kids can be taught to be well-behaved without screens, and if you're unable to do that for your kids then that's on you. And I'll judge you as much as I like.
There's nothing more sanctimonious than a person judging someone else's parenting. Personally, I think it's pathetic, but I'll leave you to it.
I do agree that different kids are different. Ours were often good. However I absolutely did not tolerate poor behavior either. If things got dicey (rarely) I escorted one outside until the storm passed. Never took longer than five minutes. Turning them into zombies instead never occurred to me.
This is such an important note. Of course kids get overwhelmed. Adults get overwhelmed. One of the main reasons kids melt down over it is because they're not just overwhelmed, but trapped.

An adult can excuse themselves, step out for some fresh air, go to the bathroom, or even go home. Knowing how and when to do that is an important skill.

Kids need that outlet too, and they need their parents to be attuned to their needs and help them manage.

If a kid is melting down at a restaurant, they need help from an adult who ought to have some idea what the child needs and how to provide it.

Too many parents seem to think their own desire for an uninterrupted meal is more important than their child's basic biological need to be able to get out of an overwhelming situation. It's not fair to trap someone somewhere they don't want to be and then blame them for becoming upset.

Lol, try telling that to the no screen crowd.
Right on. I’m always amazed when we go to a restaurant and there are kids on iPads while eating.

There is no question that iPads are the easiest solution, but it’s rarely the best solution, and it’s certainly not necessary. Humanity survived for thousands of years without having iPads for kiddos at restaurants.

> kids on iPads while eating.

Thing is that statement applies to a lot of the adults (with phones) in the restaurant too. It's sad and telling.

If you bring kids to restaurants early, they get used to the rules quite quickly. If they can figure out a touchscreen, they can figure out how to sit politely at the table.

Mine were very happy to draw, read picture books, etc. at that age.

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My daughter is verifiably not a saint, and she sits and eats dinner and chats with adults. This should be the base expectation of any child, within reason. Yes, she can color; yes, sometimes the adults have to entertain children's stories; yes, we pay attention to her. But otherwise, she's incredibly enjoyable to bring out to restaurants and such with the right environment.
Reminds me once when we sat down next to a fancy older woman on a flight with our toddler. Could see the lady visibly tense up when she saw us—expecting a screaming monster. Didn't happen. Kid sat in my lap and had charmed the socks off the lady within the first hour and we had a nice chat with her after she warmed up.
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Kids went to these places before smartphones. Restaurants, for example, tend to have crayons.
Bring card games, dominos or board games like carcassone junior. The kids will entertain themselves. Set is also very popular.
Paper and color pencils. Speaking to them, listening to their stories, asking about the place, playing to “guess what I’m watching to”, etc.

If friends expect my son to act as a dog, it’s their wrong.

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One of the nice things about going to southern Europe (Greece, Spain, Italy, etc.), is the lack of expectations of kids to sit quietly at all. From my experience over the last few years, you go to a restaurant at 10pm and everyone's kids are running around, playing together with strangers, or asleep on their parents.

As a parent of a 3 year old in the UK, with friends and restaurants we'd just talk to them or they'd colour, read, etc. Maybe cultural, but it would be seen it as pretty unusual/rude to have a kid with an iPad at a table in a restaurant; although I agree it's a lot to ask of 3 year old to sit there for hours.

Believe or not, especially if we order something she really likes, she'll sit there eating her food and talk to us, making comments about things she notices in her environment. Before the food comes, she'll just look around and make conversation about what she sees.

Could this be just her personality and we got lucky? Possibly. But I'm willing to bet it also has to do with her not being used to screens and instead being used to focusing on the environment in front of and around her. There are studies about the association between screen time and ADHD symptoms.

Same here with our son. 2,5 years old and we bring him to restaurants or friends with ease. We don’t entertain him with a phone or screen.

He also sits with us, eats with us. Sometimes we do bring a toy car, or pencils for him to draw. But that’s it.

Great side effect is that he eats everything. From olives to onions. He sees us eating and he mimics. That’s the whole parenting game imho.

I don’t believe you are lucky. You’ve simply set the standard for your child, by _not_ providing a screen for every situation.

Well done:-)

I had 5. Two could do restaurants. Two not so well. For the other, we brought toy cars and ordered piles of mashed potatoes for him to drive thru.
> we brought toy cars and ordered piles of mashed potatoes for him to drive thru.

Brilliant! Way better than screens in my opinion.

I think the symptoms/behavior comes first, and the screens come after. My son cannot sit still. He’ll wiggle, jump, run and try to touch/lick everything in existence if he’s not entertained, and what he finds entertaining is exactly the things I mentioned before.

And youtube.

It’s literally the only way to get him to sit still for any amount of time (that I’ve found anyway), so that’s what restaurant time has become.

Doesn’t mean he always wants to or gets to watch a video, especially if he can run about outside instead, but if we’re eating in a restaurant that’s otherwise dreadfully boring to him, yeah.

I have nothing negative to say about your comment. The reality is your son cannot sit still at a restaurant and youtube works to have a decent dining experience.

Now if outside the restaurant context, you were constantly giving him Youtube time in lieu of real world activity, I would encourage different behavior.

Occasionally see people with children who cannot eat a meal without a tablet or phone running beside them. Before or after food at a restaurant if it's the only way you can enjoy your own meal is one thing, but as a behavioural crutch otherwise is asking for trouble.

Like you, I try to foster in my kids an interest in everything around them. Absolutely everything is an interesting topic of discussion. Or a way to build an observational challenge - can you point to something purple? Or triangle-shaped? What instruments can you hear in this music?

This question kind of shocks me. We do allow, very limited, screen-time but the concept of having no idea what to do with the kids without a screen is jarring to say the least.
Haha. You're easily shocked. I was replying to an interesting comment talking about how they interact with their child. And I was curious about what they do in a situation that they hadn't included in their comment.

There are a lot of great replies to my question. I'm happy I asked it.

I have a 6 and 4 yr old. We've had a strict no screen during the school week rule. They can watch on weekends, holidays, and sick days. There's a zero screen policy in public, with the exception of airplanes and long road trips.

My kids are really well behave in restaurant and never ask for screens (I'm not even totally sure they would think of it). The trick for us is regularly flowing food, allowing them to bring bring a small toy, coloring utensils, and honestly just engage with them. That could be through visual and word games or just talking to them and asking the right questions. It's hard work, not every meal out is perfect, and sometimes it feel like it would just be easier to give them the phone. But I'm happy that we've taken this stance. I can't tell you how many times a restaurant owner or a nearby table has said how well behaved our kids are.

Interested in your household. Dual income? Single Income w/SAHP?

What is your plan for Grandparents, babysitters, childcare, or even the school system to help maintain no screens?

No screens seems awfully privileged in a way... maybe you're just Bill Gates

I think your phrasing is needlessly hostile.

Around the world it's quite common to have an extended family serve as a support network, especially around childcare. You're right though that maintaining no-screen when your child is with others is harder though, and finding how people deal with that was my main motivation for making this thread.

Single income one with wife as SAHM. We live on one software engineer's salary (not FAANG). We make sacrifices with things like size of our house, etc and feel it's worth it to invest that opportunity cost into our children.

I understand that not everyone can live on one income. But more often I see in my circles people that can make it work, but choose not too because they don't want to make that career/financial sacrifice. Instead both parents work and send their kids to daycare. Of course that's totally their choice. I've made a different choice and perhaps this is an unpopular opinion this day and age, but I think it's the best choice if you can make it work financially and are willing to put in the effort that it entails.

We’re 1.5 (I’m the .5) with school-day daycare (absolutely no screens there).

I will cop to allowing him to watch a playlist of nature videos I’ve downloaded and watched through beforehand, on an old laptop, at times when I need to do something urgently without toddler assistance.

Otherwise, he can spend a good hour at the sink “washing” dishes with a trickle of water or attempting to sweep (ignoring his actual toys entirely!)

My husband grew up without a TV in the house in 70s-80s West Germany. His parents eventually got one, but it sits in a side room and is usually just turned on for the 8 o’clock news.

I asked my mother-in-law about this sacrifice on her part. Her answer? She didn’t think she’d have time to watch everything her kids were watching to make sure it was appropriate, so she took Alexander’s solution to that Gordian Knot - they simply sold their TV once their first child was a few months old.

My in-laws’ generation was glad to get enough to eat as children in postwar Germany; a TV was an unimaginable luxury until they were in their teens. She didn't feel like she was depriving her children of anything important.

My husband and his sister weren’t forbidden to watch TV at others’ houses, or to go to the movies. Neither of them ever wanted to buy one for themselves as teenagers or university students, and today, they both keep very quiet houses.

Result? They talk a lot when not sitting around reading. Guests at my in-laws are offered the contents of the decently-stocked magazine stand, a rotation of coffee table books, or if they’d like something from the bookshelves.

I grew up in a stereotypical American house with the TV on all the time, but started escaping it early to hole up in my room with a computer long before most people had internet access at home.

In some ways, I feel more at ease visiting my husband’s family than my own, despite a bit of a language barrier.

One might say there’s less of a lifestyle barrier.

My husband's family has much less money than my American relatives, so privilege has nothing to do with the fact that my German niece got her first dumbphone at 11, puts her school laptop away when her homework is finished and picks up one of her craft projects, and my American nephew has had his own iPad since he was 3, his own TV and AppleTV since he was about 6, and now a Roblox addiction.

the thing that really kickstarted my passion for it was when i was left some hours alone with a old netbook, 5-6, and it was very slow, but i wanted to to something cool with it, and I followed some tutorials on YouTube to make small programs in visual basic
Find a Waldorf school with a strict no-media policy and you have a fighting chance to keep the kid healthy through grade school.
One of the classes she goes to is in fact Waldorf. ;)
My kids are 6, 7 and 9. We've managed to maintain a screen free upbringing for them and they all have other activities they prefer at this stage. Their school however heavily uses screens and we were pretty shocked to find out they are using them (primarily iPads) for a good portion of their day's classes.
I work with someone who went through that. They resent their parents for it.

Wholly and completely resent their parents. Growing up in the later 00s/10s, right as stuff like SMS and especially "social group by text message" came along, it absolutely stunted their ability to make friends.

What it did was disconnect them from their distant peers and meant that making friends outside of their immediate school peers was basically impossible. It also landed them an extremely deep rut of depression, causing them to spend their free time for years sinking into alt-right stuff that actively preys on "people sheltered from social media as kids".

Everything in the under-18 space is organized in real time online behind adults backs. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. Kids plot against the adults. The fact of the matter is that social media is the way we engage with so much art, culture, and society that these sorts of schools hurt kids in the long run.

I leave you with the track Turntable Winding Down [0] from the album Public Domain. The intro/outro were stripped when the band re-released the album "legit", but Archive.org has the original because, of course they do.

[0] https://archive.org/details/TryadTryadPublicDomain/Tryad__17...

I know this is not possible or preferable for all, but we plan to homeschool our kids and surround ourselves with other screen-free families. It will be a subculture for sure, but one I prefer over the culture at large. Before mobile phones and texting, kids made friends just fine. I know I did. In fact, compared to todays kids that don't want to leave the house and just be on their technology all day long, I played street sports with the neighborhood kids, went over to each others houses, went on bicycle adventures and yes, we even played video games together (Atari 2600). But even with that we were more communal and real life in that we were doing it together and interacting, laughing, commiserating, celebrating in person. This is the life I want for my kids growing up.

I'm really encouraged by these Luddite Teens. https://archive.ph/gsqDH

As they grow up, we'll explain why we're doing this. We want them to grow up with the experience that you don't need social media, etc to live a fulfilling life. And we model to them that phones are a very useful communication device and some apps can be very useful like Uber, but it is not to be an entertainment device.

> social media is the way we engage with so much art, culture, and society

I plan to take my kids to museums, plays, concerts etc instead.

But your child will not be almost three forever. I have one in the same age bracket myself with three older siblings. The little one has practically no interest in screen time anyway, but it's a completely different story with the older ones.

At some point, they will get in touch with media one way or the other. In our case, once they get into school, they'll be using ipads anyway. So, I agree that for very little children, there's is absolutely no need to expose them to any screen time, but at some point as they get older, they will need to learn how to use phones and media.

We're still very restrictive with screen time, though. It's more like a treat that they get to play with a device for 30 minutes (which I, honestly, find already too long, but I'm not a single parent).

Zero to three are critical years for child development. The brain grows to 80% of its adult size by then.

What happens doing those years has outsized effects on the child the rest of their life.

So yes, I won't be able to shield her from screens forever. But I can still do my best to set her up for success and prevent her from being a screen junkie.

You should absolutely continue to protect your kids from screens (and I think some kind of active role is a good thing), but as someone who was raised in a very restrictive household: be careful not too go too far the other way. For example, I was not allowed a mobile phone until I was 16 years old, and this was incredibly socially isolating and made it hard for me to participate in the shared social life of my peer group.

My suggestion would be to listen to your kid when they inevitably ask for access to these things, and while you should acquiesce every request, you shouldn't dismiss them out of hand either, and should take their reasoning into account.

Right on, I think that's a very reasonable approach.
I don't find this inspirational compared to another comment "it's better to know about that stuff and how to deal with it than to create a temporary secure enclave at home where it doesn't exist." since the temporary enclave won't be effective

but I am curious if there is inspiration on how you keep your kids entertained at restaurants. So many parents just find an ipad to be a sedative that its basically a baby sitter, they know its bad but are still in need of a quick solution and then 3 years go by before revisiting it and they don't need it any more.

How do you handle that? Bored kid at a restaurant, possibly misbehaving.

> since the temporary enclave won't be effective

So far it's been very effective. My kid has no interest in screens and likes to do real world stuff instead.

I realize I won't be able to shield her from them forever nor would that be a good idea. But these are literally formative years. From age 0 to 3, the human brain grows to 80% of its adult size, 90% by 5. What happens during these years have an outsized impact on their rest of their lives. Let's set them up for success as much as possible. That's why it's been zero screen from day one and as long as possible. When will I introduce screens? Don't know. Will cross that bridge when we get there. Right now, we're doing great with no screens.

> How do you handle that? Bored kid at a restaurant, possibly misbehaving.

Answered here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34021771

Glad this is working out for you so far.

> From age 0 to 3, the human brain grows to 80% of its adult size, 90% by 5. What happens during these years have an outsized impact on their rest of their lives.

Do you have a study that affirms these observations are related?

We know that something has an outsized cognitive impact the rest of a person's life at these ages, do you know that brain matter growth size thingy neuron something something is that thing?

This made me smile. We did this with our elder daughter (now 12). It worked and then the pandemic came where they were given their chromebooks to take home. Luckily only YouTube was allowed. But still it did cause quite a bump in screen usage. Obviously the younger daughter caught on (now 8) and decided hey I can do YouTube as well.

Since last year as things have normalized, we basically restarted a bunch of their sports activities. Both kids had reading requirements from school and both seem to be in a spot where they will read before bed by themselves. The elder one reads quite a bit, probably around 1-1.5 hrs at night. The younger kid about 20-25 mins. They still do about 5-8 hrs of screen time each week. Still too much in my opinion but they also do a lot of stuff not on screen.

I still haven’t given them phones or devices. I myself have an iPhone-6 so not much runs on it either. But as the big kid starts being more independent I think a phone is going to be necessary.

My advice, if any, is keep non screen activities and person to person activity a priority. But keep in mind that her friends may get video games a lot earlier and they do form peers online which translate into peers in person.

I wonder if too much reading is a problem. We end up reading quite a few books throughout the day with our 3yo because they demand it. Offering a screen is only a weak distraction.
Ours asks for a lot of reading time too. I don't consider this a problem and I'd rather have too much than too little. The way I see it, we're cultivating our children to fall in love with books. That will serve them well the rest of their lives.

Also, once they finally learn to read themselves, I predict they will love the independence of being able to pick up their favorite books to read whenever they want. And we'll love that too for multiple reasons. :)

The advantage of books is you don't have an algo recommending you different things on every page. It's not uncommon for me to look up a 5 minute tutorial on YouTube to be stuck there for 1 hour+ due to the recommendations.
This does not happen to me at all and I don't know why.
What do you make of this one's approach? Just wondering since you're on opposite ends of the spectrum. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34022113
If they are saying never pose limits at any age, I vehemently disagree. 0 - 3 are formative years of child development. In that time, the brain grows to 8% of its adult mass and 90% by 5. What happens during this time has outsized effects on a child for the rest of their lives.

By letting a baby/toddler have unrestricted access to screens, you are helping to wire neuronic paths in their brain to need that dopamine hit.

Perhaps there will be a time that I can trust my child to not overdose on screens, but now is definitely not the time.

Zooming out, I think there are fundamental parenting philosophy differences between me and the commenter. I believe the parent should take a very active role in shaping the character and habits of a child. This means restricting things I think are bad for them, discipline when they do wrong and this is the most important, convincing them without a doubt they you love them more than anything in the world. In this way, you give the child a solid core of security and confidence and shape their habits.

To me, the commenter seems to be advocating for letting the child make all the decisions or at least significant ones like screen time. I'm for letting children make increasingly important, age appropriate decisions as they mature and are ready. But when they are under my house, they need to understand two things, that I love them fiercely and I'm their authority figure.

edit:

> brain grows to 8% of its adult mass

should be 80%

My approach is to demystify the addictive thing as much as possible.

Kid wants to play video games? Have them create their own video game before playing other video games

Addicted to TikTok? Have them create their own videos and channel before watching other peoples channels

Addicted to the internet? Have them create their own websites before having them see other people's websites

The foundations of addiction rely on the mind creating cycles of dependence on a single activity due to a lack of finding the same dopamine rush in other known activities. So if they understand what is going on behind the scenes that actually results in the dopamine rush, they can find healthier alternatives. They will do this automatically since dopamine with understanding = freedom

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> Have them create their own video game before playing other video games

Brutal

I'm not criticizing your approach at all I'm just wondering how you get from

> The foundations of addiction rely on the mind creating cycles of dependence on a single activity due to a lack of finding the same dopamine rush in other known activities. So if they understand what is going on behind the scenes that actually results in the dopamine rush, they can find healthier alternatives.

to what you've come up with? How does creating your own video make them understand what is going on behind the scenes when watching a video and how that creates a dopamine rush? Absolutely, creating your own videos is much more satisfying but I don't see how that relates to better understanding when watching a Tiktok feed.

Realistically I've pretty much given up. The only thing is if we have school, organized events, sports - social interaction. Otherwise the (barely working) phone comes out - or the laptop which is required for all homework now. I'd love to do something but looking around the adults are just as addicted.
For our kids the big problem was youtube.

Give them a game on their tablet and they are quickly collaborating on it. Give them a show and they will go see what the other person is watching. After not too long (an hour or two) they are completely done and doing something else.

But youtube is different. They can sit alone, in a corner, slack jawed, for 8 hours per day, only watching youtube, as they respond to all questions with only a vague grunt.

Do not give them access to roblox, you won't even get a grunt.
Youtube has been essentially banned in my house after seeing the effect it had on my kids. The problem, in short, was that Youtube continuously feeds them new content. Sadly - especially given the huge amount of actually great content on Youtube - everything that it wants to show my kids is absolutely dogshit garbage. A bunch of Gen Z kids with obviously wealthy families just acting like idiots. I couldn't stand it any more.

I am, in general, a fairly permissive and liberal-minded parent. I had to put my foot down and have just disabled the site on the devices they use.

It makes me sad because I know if they were directed to the right kinds of videos they could learn all kinds of things and be inspired by the creativity of the folks behind them. This is not what comes up in the feed and the content that they've become most interested in is the mental equivalent of eating off-brand Oreos for every meal. Hard pass.

I largely agree, but I've not banned it. I just have explicitly told them they can only watch from the subscriptions we've curated. It requires monitoring of course, so they'll watch it on tv (Apple TV) when I'm present. My kids are young enough that they're never alone. Once they're not, I've been thinking if I can write a MITM proxy at home for youtube that somehow only allows content from explicit channels.
>I've been thinking if I can write a MITM proxy at home for youtube that somehow only allows content from explicit channels.

great idea!

You could probably run a Plex server with something like TubeSync that would download offline copies automatically; pair this with a metadata agent and you'd still get all the playlist/thumbnail/description stuff.
Several kids in my household. YouTube plays a vastly different role for each, which is frustrating.

Oldest goes down rabbit hole of topics of interest - benign useless filler stuff, e.g. mostly pro sports commentary, random things like Disney ride trivia, and other random pop-culture filler. If left unchecked, i wouldn’t be surprised if they spent 8+ hours on YouTube. If moderated, YouTube gives them a fair amount of stuff to talk and connect with others about in real life. Overall impact: neutral to slightly positive if moderated to <1h/day. Food/drink equivalent: Honey Mustard and Onion Pretzel pieces (a few are great, but then you can’t stop and you end up eating 1500 calories and everything tastes wrong for 24h)

Younger teen: will consume insane amounts of gaming videos, most of the creators border on toxic personalities. We’ve banned a number of channels for them, but they find other shitty personalities. I can’t stand the content they consume, but I chalk a fair bit of that to my ignorance about teen culture and mostly grit my teeth. Covid was the worst. I hate YouTube because of their content choices. However, it does provide a small basis of connection to their group of friends. [edit: I also stupidly made a deal that w/ straight A’s I won’t be overly restrictive, which they’ve upheld, sigh] Overall impact: toxic to the point where every month or two I’m convinced to ban YouTube across every device in the house. Food/drink equivalent: Natty Light that’s barely chilled.

Pre-teen: by choice, they spend ~3/4 of their YouTube time learning new skills or facts. Mostly learning specific techniques in the iPad app Procreate, acrylic painting (irl), a ton of educational videos about wildlife/animals they love, etc. But more significantly, their YouTube use has created the reflex to “search first” whenever facing a knowledge/skill gap, then ask for help. They’re the only reason i don’t straight up block YouTube at the network level, for all devices. Overall impact: very positive. Food/drink equivalent: natto and rice.

Sounds to me like that younger teen needs an intervention, i.e. more oversight. I wouldn't grit my teeth and bare it on that.
Is that because they’re not doing what you want? Or because it’s bad? They’re still scoring straight A’s in school.
There's more to being a successful human than straight A's in school, and for some people the A's are easy.

I think if the parent thinks the agreement they made was stupid and is now a detriment to their child's well-being, they should edit it.

Acknowledge having made a mistake. Don't pretend you were right from the start. That's an important part of the learning process, and your kid needs to know it's safe to make mistakes and adjust course later, that you're not stuck with something just because of one decision in the past.

Be clear on what concerns you and why (especially be sure that it's a concern for the child's well-being and not some need of your own that you're trying to meet by changing your kid) and have a conversation with this young person about it.

This is a growth opportunity, not a lost cause.

Eh, like many things in life, it’s not that simple, but the reality of it is that YouTube plays a role within a clear framework intended to bring wider sense of balance their life (BSA scouts, sports, literature I choose every now and then, etc). I wouldn’t quite phrase YouTube as being straight up detrimental to their well-being, it’s more that I personally don’t enjoy the baggage that comes with the benefits. So like Natty Lite, 1-2 are probably fine (even if in poor taste) but beyond that it’s a problem.
The YouTube algorithm seems to steer you toward absolute shit. Age doesn't matter. Try just following it as an adult and you will end up in the toilet pretty fast.
> The problem, in short, was that Youtube continuously feeds them new content.

Does it? I feel like my son has been watching essentially the same 20-25 videos over and over again. Of course his youtube time is limited, but it doesn’t seem like it suggests anything but his three favorite channels.

The problem, in short, was that Youtube continuously feeds them new content.

This is a problem for me too (an adult), I'm getting stronger at turning it off, but it's poison.

My kids do this and I mostly just let them. They do well in school, have friends, are physically healthy. I was the same with TV and games at their age and now I'm living the life. Internet addiction can be an outlet for other unhealthy behavior but I don't think it's a cause.
We just added YouTube to my son’s iPad. In addition to a daily time limit we also locked his account down so he can only see videos that we explicitly add to his account.
We banned YouTube for the same reason. It's honestly a bit terrifying how completely YouTube can entrance kids. You could probably kill a kid by sitting them in front of YouTube and they'd die of thirst or starvation.

The content is absolute shit too. The YouTube algorithm steers them toward these weird repetitive videos and obnoxious fast-chattering gamer channels. There's a lot of interesting and enriching stuff on YouTube but the algorithm never steers them toward it.

You might want to preemptively ban TikTok and Instagram too. I've been told by many parents they are absolute poison for teens. I've looked at them a bit and TikTok in particular is shockingly addictive even for adults. I was just checking it out and before I knew it I'd been scrolling for 45 minutes watching weird videos from randos. Banned it at the network level already just in case.

We have really created a monster here with this addictionware stuff. It's not great for adults but for kids it's really toxic.

tiktok is worse.
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The solution to this problem is actively parenting your kids. Take them on hikes, start a hobby with them, bond, etc. Letting the internet babysit your kids is the precursor to internet addiction. If you put in the work, then you won't have to worry.
This is an excelent answer, which makes me itch to push a little further.

I suppose OP (and you) are not "internet addicted", and I'm pretty sure it's not because someone is working hard to keep you from the internet, but because you have other things in your life that you enjoy or understand are critically needed.

Kids aren't that different. We might need to push them first so they discover new things and find what they like, but they'll definitely come back to you to go hiking if it they had a blast the last time.

I'm not sure it's really "put in the work", and I like a lot your "actively parenting" part. The crux is really to have fun with your kid, and if it's fun they'll do it again, and again, and again. And they also have a sense of responsibility, letting them fail and be remorseful when they didn't do their due and watched youtube instead is often a good enough strategy.

But what if your kids start to prefer to stay home on the internet rather than go hiking, or skiing or whatever.

So what do you do in this case?

The kid also prefers eating chocolate over potatoes. That doesn't mean we just give up potatoes and let them have chocolate.
Well I'm browsing HN so.......
Not sure why you're yelling at exabrial. I don't read either the topic or his comment as being particularly divisive.
We went from using YouTube as a babysitter to accepting that we have to reduce our personal time allotment and be more engaged with the child.

The television was removed from the living room wall and the only screen time is shared activity screen time with a parent on the weekends for an hour or so. Lots more board gaming, reading, talking, crafting, playing. Way more parental involvement required.

If there was some way to limit YouTube to specific channels and disable recommendations we might still allow it. Maybe you can do that with premium. In any case, we chose a household solution rather than trying to work in a technical solution.

Exact same here.

I was pretty good at policing the YouTube content, but one day I came in and found my wife without a care in the world while my child was mimicking horrible YouTube behavior. Turned it off and never looked back.

Now my friend with an 8 year old is telling me how YouTube returned to his life. I’m not ready for that and instead trying to build a device that will pause time

> If there was some way to limit YouTube to specific channels and disable recommendations we might still allow it

I do exactly this by mirroring a list of channels to my NAS and serving it with Emby. It's not 100% "educational" material; there's Dude Perfect and alongside Physics Girl, Bob Ross, Primitive Technology, and Technology Connections.

(My ancient wish that Google+ had created personas/facets crops up once again: there's a fair number of creators whose channels have some gold but which I won't add to the mirror because they have a bunch of unrelated content that is far more marginal. Some creators set up multiple topic-focuses channels or playlists but it's not the common case.)

I don't have a content block for youtube.com and the kids can still technically get there, but they know I don't want them going there and they know why.

My 6.5yo has just gotten access to an iPad to do some learn to read training through a specific app. No other apps permitted. Before this there was no access at all to iPads or computers and very limited TV time. We'll continue to slowly introduce tech with heavy guidance and restriction as she ages, but she'll be a lot less online than her peers seem to be. I don't really see this as a detriment.
Out of curiosity, which app?
i have a 13 and 11 year old. We keep them engaged as much as possible off screen in physical activities. They get plenty of screen time though and I try to do my best to steer them to at least useful content. There's lots of interesting content that children can learn from on youtube especially science and history. I watch with them and try to steer to as much productive content as i can but am not always 100% successful.
I have a 3 month old and this is something I am wondering about already, since I am definitely prone to YouTube binging - especially if I'm in a bad mood, tired etc.

I tell myself I need it for background music then before.I know it I'm binge watching comedy routines I've seen 10 times before.

You made it far enough to have life stable enough to post on HN and have a 3 month kid, I'd assume you're not actually addicted to youtube in the clinical term.

Honestly if you're going well enough, your kid potentially mimicking you shouldn't be such an issue. There are some stuff to consider regarding language aquisition, fine motor skills etc. for really small kids, but them looking at youtube wont doom their life if you've covered the other bases.

If you feel it will become a real issue, the path of course would be to look at how you want your own life to be different, move in that direction and bring your kid along. I've had friends who quit their job and moved to another town to realign with how they wanted their life to be after they had their kid, so it can be an option.

I think our generation is a bit lucky as we're some of the first who experienced internet/technology addiction. Many of us still have challenges with it.

But that makes us more equipped to parent it. Moderation, appealing alternatives, technical prowess, modeling healthy habits, access in a public/supervised environment, etc.

I do wonder what the future will look like for parental controls and big tech. Especially in the USA.

I don’t know if I will.

I was a computer addicted kid since I was about 8, when parents bought me a computer in 1995. When faster internet came, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I was on the internet nonstop. And later on social media - LiveJournal, Blogger, Flickr, YouTube, but also some local servers that people here won’t know.

I don’t think it hurt me that much? Now I am a developer and making more money than most of my friends from that time, that were not sitting all day on computer.

So… it would be kind of hypocritical from me to restrict my kids doing the same? I don’t know

My kids are still too young to understand computers though (1 and 3). So let’s see

This is a different internet than the one we had, is my own apprehension.
I've been addicted to the internet since 2010. I learned a lot and became a developer because of modding communities and general PC building. I've also wasted a lot of time on reddit and youtube. Can't say anything productive has come out of my time on the phone or consoles though.

It makes me wonder how the shift towards mobile and consoles will affect how useful internet addictions can be. I would have never become a developer if I remained a console or mobile gamer.

The communities that I was in are still around but I'm unsure whether young people will actually find them. Why learn how to mod games when you can scroll tiktok, browse reddit, and watch youtube for the entire day.

especially games, modern games aren't as supportive to modders than older games - it's more profitable to not provide modding tools and just to run any multiplayer servers officially with microtransactions.

I feel like content and internet use was wildly different back then. I did the same thing in that timeframe with a similar result. But I was constantly constructive with what I did. Not because I was a workaholic, I was just really curious and interested in everything.

Linux? Cool let's install and play around for a while. How many fun logos can I make in GIMP for my cheesy geocities site? Oh half-life comes with a level builder, let's build some levels!

As time goes on, I end up exploring less and less and now just absorb media when I'm not working. And it's not even fun or satisfying, but the dopamine hit is easy. It could be just partially growing up and having real responsibility and a full time job, but I feel the content delivery bears some of the blame.

Indeed, the modern day web is closer to what TV was back in the late 1990s or early 2000s than the web of that era. Except more tailored to you, so probably more addicting than the television.

I'm not sure if you could re-create the early web experience. It might be possible with a VERY highly curated twitter feed, but it would still be challenging, as the medium doesn't promote the same type of long term engagement as the older style PhpBB forums did.

You can’t compare writing blogs or early YouTube to current trends: short videos, addictive productions, irrelevant contents, etc.

My son has a friend who can watch YouTube and Tiktok for hours without supervision. When he comes home I freak out: he gets bored watching a movie, music videoclips are too long, and if you try to read a short story at bedtime he doesn’t even listen to you.

It’s not about using computers and participating in online communities but undermining their attention, vocabulary, etc.

How is your own attention span? I've watched old cartoon movies from the 80s and find them dull and boring but I remember them being my favorite at the time.

I also have this other observation. If you really get into classical music, jazz and to some extent blues/bluegrass... modern pop songs just sound like crap and boring.

> If you really get into classical music, jazz and to some extent blues/bluegrass... modern pop songs just sound like crap and boring.

I feel this might be a 'look at me I'm so smart thing'. I've enjoyed classical music and jazz and blues/bluegrass, and partake in playing all of those. I also enjoy pop music. There's nothing inherently bad about pop music. Like jazz and classical, it's based on a simple circle of fifths progression. In fact, most modern pop is more harmonically and rhythmically complex than classical music.

My point was about novelty and simulation capturing attention. I find Pop music tends to be less complex and repetitive which is boring. Especially if listened to say bluegrass and then pop back to back.
repetition is a fundamental part of good music.
I think things have become MUCH more addictive as monetization and engagement have evolved.

In the your era there just weren't the sort of a/b tested hooks to get you in, behavioral techniques to keep you engaged and dark patterns to prevent you from leaving.

gotta watch out for your kids. Get them outside, with fresh air and exercise.

Similar background here. I’ve been Very Online for 25+ years and have made a pretty good life for myself as a result.

However, the modern internet and current trend is much more consumption based and non-technical than it used to be. Toxic content, communities, and celebrities were always around (and always will be) but with so much more overall volume you can easily become encased in a bubble of negativity and hate.

I would curate and limit access for children into their teenage years, say 14 or 15. After that I’d just want to know what they’re generally up to so I could step in if, for instance, I had a son who started following Andrew Tate.

I was addicted to computers when I found them in middle school. My parents banned me and I didn't follow my passion at university. Now I'm a programmer with above average social skills and below average computer skills. Not sure it was the right decision.
I largely agree with you.

Its interesting to see what I believe to be a generational divide in these comments.

I'm 28. My parents limited my internet and gaming time when I was younger and it mostly just caused resentment and anger at what I believed to be their controlling behaviour. I couldn't wait to move out. When I did move out in University the freedom I spent too much time on the things I wasn't allowed to do before and my grades suffered for it.

I think a lot of comments here have very draconian policies that aren't going to work out the way the parents intended it. I think the harder and more desirable way is to somehow teach them to manage their own time but I have no idea how.

My life path, including our ages +/- a year, is exactly what the person you're responding to described. I think the "screens are demons" approach to the screens of the 90s would indeed have been overkill and even counterproductive. However, I think (many/most of) the screens of today are nothing like back then.

A while back I saw a ~5 year old watch the entirety of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5dUzc476Ws (pick any random 10 seconds to get the idea)

My spouse and I discussed it later in private, and we were both horrified. In the moment we had both had visceral little gasp reactions to how bad it was. We were until then only aware of a problem to the extent of "my kids are staring at screens all day", which does of course sound like 90s parents. The real problem is that some significant portion of those screens are now putting out absolutely horrifying cognition poison.

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This is my philosophy and I had the same experience. We also had cable tv that I sat in front of reliably for a long time. I remember duck tales, saved by the bell etc..

Where I went to college though did not have internet access in the dorms! That was a mistake. There were schools I could have attended that did. I did spend a lot of time in the computer lab but I think I would have benefited from a direct link.

We are roughly the same age, and I firmly believe the internet we grew up with is not the internet we have today. I don’t think you can use our childhood as a reference point for how to raise kids nowadays.
Strongly agree, the internet I grew up with taught me how to code, run my own networks, how to build websites and provision servers without being a constant distraction. That's the internet that gave me my career.

Also I was able to books without poisonous addictive social media apps and YouTube distracting me at every instance. I doubt I've really learned much or anything from social media. In fact I'd say it's highly one sided relationship where I'm the loser.

I'm absolutely convinced that this is not the same internet now and that kids have to deal with a lot more challenges. Everything is actively built to be addictive and to fragment your attention. There are big players who don't want you off the internet. The content itself has also changed and there is a lot more false information that is indistinguishable from the "good"

You can't compare your own childhood to this, I don't think we even get it. You have to set limits both on time and content.

I've been fighting this battle for years and I still fight it every day with my kids.

First, you MUST set limits on everything addictive to children in your house including the internet. Limit the content they can access and the place and time they can use it. You can adjust the limits, but never remove them.

Second, if they're old enough, explain the concept of addiction to them. Here is a perfect video to do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUngLgGRJpo A child will understand exactly what addiction means after watching this video.

Third, show them that you also have limits on your own tech usage. They might not be the same limits you put on them, but you have limits. They will understand this way that limits are not something they can "grow out of" and are part of being an adult.

Last, when they do break the rules, don't shame them for it and don't give them approval for it either. Make it clear that you still love them and the rules are still in place.

Good luck.

What do you make of this one's approach? Just wondering since you're on opposite ends of the spectrum. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34022113
I don't see it that way. Both of our approaches are based on education but in different formats. His approach may be valid for his kids. I'm just sharing what works for my family.

From my perspective, children watch what you do more than what you say. If you tell them the internet is dangerous but then leave it wide open, you're sending mixed messages to them and they're not going to take your advice seriously.

The point is not to seal them off in a bubble. I talk about all kinds of hard realities with my kids. And they're exposed to hard realities when I'm not there. The point is that your actions have to match your statements.

> Probably dozens of times, maybe hundreds, we have had "the talk" about how there's a lot of weird shit in the world, internet included, and it's better to know about that stuff and how to deal with it than to create a temporary secure enclave at home where it doesn't exist.

Hundreds of times? That sounds terribly embarrassing, doesn't it?

And why wouldn't I want my home to be a sanctuary from the weird shit out there? Isn't the point of a home a place you can kick off your shoes and relax?

> They've fallen thousands of times, we've picked them up thousands of times, and now they're pretty good at not falling.

Thousands??? He has to accept the possibility that they've just gotten better at hiding their vices. That's what teenagers are good at.

This kind of supports my assumption that his kids aren't taking his rules OR his advice seriously.

You're going to get a lot of skewed results here, because a lot of parents aren't going to feel comfortable telling the truth: that almost all parents allow a reasonable amount of screen time to their kids, even if they know it's not the healthiest thing for them.

Personally, we have a four year old and an almost-two year old, and they're watching a Leapfrog show on the TV as we speak. We limit their access to screens, but realistically there are times when they're really useful.

We have no online games and no YouTube as base rules. We pick games that have some meaningful interaction to them. Games like Minecraft, Jurassic Park Evolution 2, Cities Skyline, old Sierra games, puzzle games. It's time boxed and only after responsibilities are taken care of like homework and helping out. I prefer they game over watching tv passively.

I am considering getting rid of consoles and just getting them steam decks instead as their first computers and then do some modding with them.

I just don't let them use screens. I have a 5 and a 7 years old. To them a phone is used to call people, a computer is what Dad uses to work, a TV is used 30 minutes a week to watch something as a family and they don't know what a tablet is.

They've never used an "app".

They have books, blocks, Legos, dolls, coloring pages, and a ton of random trinkets to play creatively. It probably requires being more hands on than when you can use the TV set as a babysitter, but it's well worth it so far.

This is the way. They don't know what they're missing.