What is the point of these non-elite colleges? Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans? Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year. The facilities and staff seem more than adequate for training people for routine jobs requiring more than a high school education. It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale. Maybe rich families whose kids can’t get into those schools should have something like this school as an option. But why divert public resources to support them?
The lead example, Colby-Sawyer, seems to be “non-elite” only in that traditional evaluations of elite status rely largely on graduate/research programs, and its a baccalaureate-only institution, and apparently one of the better (despite being small) undergraduate institutions in the region.
> Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans?
Federal student loans shouldn’t exist, but make no less sense at schools like Colby-Sawyer than any others.
> Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year.
Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees, and do not substitute for schools that do any more than those schools substitute for graduate schools.
> Why divert public resources supporting these extraneous colleges?
Because they aren’t extraneous.
> It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale.
Colby-Sawyer very much does not ape the trappings of Harvard and Yale, and one of the draws of schools like it is that the focus is on undergraduate education, not graduate research with undergraduate programs as an afterthought among faculty duties.
Lists of majors are not what makes a college elite or non-elite; there are elite and non-elite schools in every field.
(OTOH, that list makes it pretty clear what makes it something a community college won’t substitute for, since those are mostly bachelor’s programs, plus a professional masters; with the few associate’s programs in health sciences being the only thing that most community colleges might be able to provide, even before considering qualitative differences.)
The school is not remotely elite, that is a fact, and the list of majors it offers is a tell. You think I’m saying the majors list _causes_ it to be elite or not. Or you don’t really think that.
No, I don’t know what you are saying because you are being deliberately indirect amd avoiding making an argument rather than vague handwaving and innuendo.
> Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees
Even this is changing - many of our community colleges in Washington state now offer a BA, especially designed for non-trad students who are returning to the classroom and/ or need a more flexible schedule.
Or you know we could make sure that public schools stick to a budget instead of draining students like vampires. Limit student loans to something reasonable and make them deal with it. If they don't become "world class research centers", who cares, students are there to become adults and get an education. They probably don't need "world class sports and entertainment" facilities. Bunking with someone in a cheap dorm room with basic almost prison like accouterments was one of the happiest times of my life lol. I could make enough money to pay for tuition and room/board over a summer or semester. This was at a middle of the road state university. Now it would be almost impossible.
I don't know why people even consider going to a private university. Public universities are subsidized by the public. In California, you can go to community college for 2 years and get general education out of the way - transfer them classes. It is free if parents make under $40Kper year, or about $2K per year in tuition if over that. And annual tuition at Cal State University is about $6-$7K per year. So basically, you can get a university degree in California for less than $20K. Not including room and board and books, of course. But those costs are the same anywhere, so it zeroes out. Tuition is the biggie.
Probably the only private schools worth it are the most famous ivy league schools where you can network with some of the richest people in the world (from the point of view of someone not from that 0.01% of wealth)
Right. Tier 1 schools are excepted, and they are in a class of their own and almost always worth the price, for sure. But there are little nothing private no-name universities out there that are charging $40-$50K in tuition alone. And people are paying it.
For example, Adrian College (???) in Michigan costs $40K per year in tuition. WTF?
Landmark College (???) in Vermont - almost $63,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
St Lawrence University (???) in New York - $62,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
What a vulgar rendition: "little nothing no-name universities."
There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life. In the case of St Lawrence and Adrian: this is where you send your children to if you don't want them to end up "of the world." They're small campuses, in controlled environments, with people from similar backgrounds (i.e. long-time upper middle class, no intentions of "moving up" or down). $40-50k a year for a couple of years is absolutely nothing if you want to make certain your offspring don't end up silly (and if you're of that notion, you surely can cover the cost).
For Landmark, it's obvious from a cursory glance of their info that this is a "special case," and different from the rest: it's a college tailored towards those with learning disabilities. Whether or not this justifies the costs is another matter, but it cannot be seriously lumped in as a regular college for comparison.
T1 is more marketing than substance. Most of the "Ivy League"s have fallen off since coming into public consciousness, and being flooded by people other than those that once brought it a good name. Even the "grinder schools" (e.g. CMU, MIT, etc.) are following in similar fashion (again, appearance over substance). Will they expose you to a wide range of people that may end up being useful towards some end in the future? Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
What century is this? Most people would probably think it a bit ridiculous to spend $40-50k a year trying to prevent kids from being "of the world" or "ending up silly". Even as someone who went to a private university, these are not good reasons to do so.
I'd also be interested in any evidence in the supposed downturn among elite universities - last I saw they are still quite effective at putting graduates into the highest echelons of government and industry. Even the supposedly more iconoclast industries like tech are largely inhabited by graduates of top schools.
You would fall into the "of the world" camp. There are others, a relative minority but prevalent everywhere, that don't want to be a part of this, nor want their children involved. You will likely never interact with them, and their thoughts and feelings will never reach you -- but that doesn't mean their worlds are inane (or rather, more inane than any other).
The deterioration of quality within the "elite universities" is self-evident if one goes by more nuanced measure than "how high up the industrial and political ladder" its graduates reach. What the contrary is, is a matter of values that I will not be elaborating upon (this conversation has become tiring).
Oh, I know people who share your views, including a few relatives. I'm just not into cults.
Either you've taught your kids cakes that will stand up in the face of scrutiny and alternative belief systems, or you're peddling junk and hoping that with enough brainwashing and avoiding reality, they won't figure it out.
also look at how big endowments of the "big" private schools is. It's almost obscene that they are just letting all that wealth sit rather than doing something with it.
The conversation right now is how expensive universities are. This is what most people are worried about. They are not worried about whether their children have a free masseuse at their school giving free backrubs.
And I am writing for what the situation is today. However, I did my first year at a private university a long time ago, when the room, board, and tuition was $4,500 for a year, all meals included for the board. This is the equivalent of $18,718.87 per year today. That same school is now $60,000 per year. I went there for one year.
Then I changed directions and went to community college, followed by public state university. I paid $264 per year at the community college which is $1,098.17 in today's dollars or $2,200 per year. My public state univesity was $300 per semester, or $1,247.92 in today's dollars, or $2,500 per year. So this is equivalent to about $10,000 in today's dollars. No sweat.
>There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life.
It used to be this way, when I paid what I paid. Now, with costs going to $240,000 to get an undergraduate degree, this statement of yours is .... I can't think of a diplomatic and tactful way of saying it. But it is the worst idea ever. Especially since most degrees you will be paying that date for forever.
>T1 is more marketing than substance.
This is not news. It's always been this way. People knew this 40 years ago, when I was going to universiity. The reason one goes to the T1 schools has always been known to get the connections. Always. I used to work at a firm and they ONLY would hire from T1 universities. Made boatloads of money, too.
>Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
Only to you and those who agree with you. I don't think that way and there are billions of parents all over the world who would literally chop of their right arm to get their kinds into Harvard, Stanford, or any T1s. So I'm sure you are outnumbered there.
The only reason you think it is obscene is because you have some idealogical glasses on about what "should be" in some kind of perfect world.
Finally, I noticed zero differences from the small private university vs the public state university. I think if one develops a good personality and isn't socially awkward, then one can succeed no matter where they go. But for sure, with a Stanford or Harvard degree, the world really is your oyster. For sure. You can do anything with an elite degree, comparatively speaking.
At least when I went to one, I generally had no idea who had generational wealth (there were a few with famous names), and there weren't obvious ways to show it off; the University had so much money itself that everything was free or nearly so for the students. If you were a billionaire on campus, you still got the same crappy dorm room and wore the same uniform of jeans and t shirts etc. Bragging about how rich your parents are to a bunch of ivy league students isn't going to make you friends.
I did get a sense of who was extremely motivated and smart, and, by and large, those people have been the most successful, not the ones who came from money. The ones who came from money were more likely to take 'interesting' vs lucrative jobs, but most of the advantages of networking are knowing other highly motivated people who are at the top of other fields, but knowing rich people.
Apart from that, classes at top schools go faster and teach you more, and if you want to, you can take more of them for free. So many students get 5-7 years of mid-tier college content in 4 years, which tends to produce a better trajectory for lifetime earnings.
I went to a private mid tier university. I was on a mostly full ride mind you.
imo the reason to go to such a place is the lifestyle. The opportunity to make some friends as an adult while you still have a hefty amount of time for leisure; adjust your lifestyle from whatever shape it took in a traditional high school experience; and connect with a group of peers of whatever wealth / academic interest group you prefer is pretty great. Not to say this can’t be done in a community college, but I would imagine it’s less of a dorm vacation.
Full ride is always a different situation, of course. We are talking about the high cost of university, obviously if anyone gets a full scholarship, they go to university at the best price. Or a scholarship amount that makes it roughly equivalent to a public university.
But most don't get that, and with many private universities at $250K for 4 years, it simply is the worst choice someone can make - to be saddled with that debt. Unless as also stated elsewhere, if you go to a T1 school.
I actually did go to my first year to a small private university but that was long ago when it was reasonable. $4,500 for room, board, and tuition. That same exact university is now $60,000 for the same thing. And bringing $4,500 to present day, that is equivalent to about $18,000.
I saw zero difference in lifestyle myself. I think this is just one of the things that small universities say to justify their fucked up tuition price. Maybe 40 years ago, you can go for lifestyle, but now....no fucking way. How is a lifestyle worth $250,000?
Yes, in a community college it didn'th happen, but it did when I went to the next 2 years at public university in a university town.
Also, at the community college, actually I did meet people and hung out with them, as well as made excellent friends elsewhere that I still am friends with.
But the whole "dorm vacation"" idea is a loser idea, unless you have a full ride. I can think of a lot of other vacations that I could afford with $240,000. The reason to go to university is one single reason these days - to get one single piece of paper. You are paying for one sheet of paper. That's it. Today. Not 40 and 50 years ago...then it was ok to go for the "experience" and I mean that. But not now. Hells no. Those days are long gone. Shit, you could get a degree in English or History or whatever you wished because you could easily pay for university. Now....best only to get a computer science or business degree. For anything else, just learn on Udemy or Khan academy. No other degrees pays back the cost of college.
By the way, here in California, one can go to community college and 2 years of California State University and get a university degree for $15,000 to $20,000 in total. Total cost of a degree (not including room, board and books but one has to pay that anywhere - tuition is issue). Best deal in the world.
I went to community college for free on Pell grants and then to a similarly priced state school, though not in California. It was a fine option for me and I’m doing well for myself almost a decade later, but it wasn’t a free lunch. I had a hell of a time getting my first job out of college, in no small part because my community college did absolutely nothing to equip me to apply for internships at the start of my junior year. And missing those years with my eventual graduating class definitely left me with a shallower network than my peers - to this day, I’ve gotten every job I’ve ever had through a cold application. Not to mention the signaling impacts. It’s not hard to imagine these drawbacks costing me six figures in earnings over the course of my career.
For people whose best available alternative is not to go to college at all, I’d recommend community college + 2 years at a state school with no hesitation. In other cases I don’t think it makes sense to paint with such broad strokes - it depends on the particular student’s career aspirations and the particular college’s aptitude at positioning students to succeed in that field.
> I had a hell of a time getting my first job out of college, in no small part because my community college did absolutely nothing to equip me to apply for internships at the start of my junior year.
I volunteer with a non-profit trying to fix this problem. Check us out?
I think the major issue is communication ability, social abilities, and all that. Someone can have the "ideal best" education, but without social skills, it all does not matter.
I've risen to the top of many (small, small) organizations because I understood about social skills and finding out who you need to know and get to be friends with in a company. Being friends with the right people gets you far, far, far ahead of anyone else.
I've also got all my jobs through cold outreach. I don't care, I'm pretty fearless and have done a shitload of tradeshows, and sales, and all kinds of stuff like that.
I think the thing that hold most people back is social skills and political skills and the ways one can become known as the experts in their industry.
It's all on youtube, if you look. Social skills, small talk, business politics, dressing appropriately (I spent a LOT of time at high end men's stores and read GQ from cover to cover for years). https://www.gq.com/ How one dresses is extremely important. Read it for a year or two, go to high end men's stores - Saks Fifth Avenue for example - https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/mens - go in, try stuff on. Look around.
I have friends that didn't go to university and are making mid to high six figures. If they can, so can you. Don't let your own mind defeat you, make it your ally.
> I don't know why people even consider going to a private university. Public universities are subsidized by the public.
I think this is generally true, but for me it was actually cheaper to go to a private university due to scholarships from the private school and zero financial aid from the public one.
Yes, for sure that would be the case in your situation. That makes sense, if someone gets a full ride, you go wherever you want.
But most private universities are $30-40K/year in tuition. I, for one, am an idiot and qualified for zero kinds of scholarships or aid. You're one of the smarties, so good on you!
From the outside, the US university tuition system looks concerningly like the used car market. Questionable sales techniques, aimed at impressionable customers who don't understand exactly what they're getting (and think they're getting a lot more), very little price transparency, and easy credit acting as a force multiplier...
In most cases what colleges are doing here is changing their tuition model. Most private schools have a high discount rate now. This is a relatively new phenomenon where almost every student pays less than full tuition. The advantage for the school is they can not only be selective with who they admit, but award more money to the students that are most desired / highest need thus increasing the chances of those students attending.
This model works pretty well except it isn’t very transparent until you apply and get a financial aid offer. This can lead to some people not even applying because they think they will never be able to afford it. So a one price for everyone regardless of talent/need is making a comeback.
whenever i see articles related to the high cost of tuition, i always take a moment to point out that this phenomena is largely government-driven, with the rest of the blame being societal.
only until the government stops lending tuition money to anyone with a pulse will the true, economic cost of higher education come down. in order to do that, a politician will need to commit political suicide to propose such legislation, which will never happen.
couple that with the "go to college and get a good job" mentality in the US and it's no surprise nearly all US high school students feel compelled to borrow a truck-load of money and go to college.
why do we look down on the trades? i have friends who never went to college, learned a skill, and are making gobs of money (with no debt to service!).
40 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 93.0 ms ] threadThe lead example, Colby-Sawyer, seems to be “non-elite” only in that traditional evaluations of elite status rely largely on graduate/research programs, and its a baccalaureate-only institution, and apparently one of the better (despite being small) undergraduate institutions in the region.
> Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans?
Federal student loans shouldn’t exist, but make no less sense at schools like Colby-Sawyer than any others.
> Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year.
Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees, and do not substitute for schools that do any more than those schools substitute for graduate schools.
> Why divert public resources supporting these extraneous colleges?
Because they aren’t extraneous.
> It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale.
Colby-Sawyer very much does not ape the trappings of Harvard and Yale, and one of the draws of schools like it is that the focus is on undergraduate education, not graduate research with undergraduate programs as an afterthought among faculty duties.
https://colby-sawyer.edu/academics/majors
(OTOH, that list makes it pretty clear what makes it something a community college won’t substitute for, since those are mostly bachelor’s programs, plus a professional masters; with the few associate’s programs in health sciences being the only thing that most community colleges might be able to provide, even before considering qualitative differences.)
Even this is changing - many of our community colleges in Washington state now offer a BA, especially designed for non-trad students who are returning to the classroom and/ or need a more flexible schedule.
Apparently community colleges and Ivy League schools, and nothing else, I would assume from the Harvard/Yale reference.
For example, Adrian College (???) in Michigan costs $40K per year in tuition. WTF?
Landmark College (???) in Vermont - almost $63,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
St Lawrence University (???) in New York - $62,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life. In the case of St Lawrence and Adrian: this is where you send your children to if you don't want them to end up "of the world." They're small campuses, in controlled environments, with people from similar backgrounds (i.e. long-time upper middle class, no intentions of "moving up" or down). $40-50k a year for a couple of years is absolutely nothing if you want to make certain your offspring don't end up silly (and if you're of that notion, you surely can cover the cost).
For Landmark, it's obvious from a cursory glance of their info that this is a "special case," and different from the rest: it's a college tailored towards those with learning disabilities. Whether or not this justifies the costs is another matter, but it cannot be seriously lumped in as a regular college for comparison.
T1 is more marketing than substance. Most of the "Ivy League"s have fallen off since coming into public consciousness, and being flooded by people other than those that once brought it a good name. Even the "grinder schools" (e.g. CMU, MIT, etc.) are following in similar fashion (again, appearance over substance). Will they expose you to a wide range of people that may end up being useful towards some end in the future? Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
I'd also be interested in any evidence in the supposed downturn among elite universities - last I saw they are still quite effective at putting graduates into the highest echelons of government and industry. Even the supposedly more iconoclast industries like tech are largely inhabited by graduates of top schools.
The deterioration of quality within the "elite universities" is self-evident if one goes by more nuanced measure than "how high up the industrial and political ladder" its graduates reach. What the contrary is, is a matter of values that I will not be elaborating upon (this conversation has become tiring).
Either you've taught your kids cakes that will stand up in the face of scrutiny and alternative belief systems, or you're peddling junk and hoping that with enough brainwashing and avoiding reality, they won't figure it out.
And I am writing for what the situation is today. However, I did my first year at a private university a long time ago, when the room, board, and tuition was $4,500 for a year, all meals included for the board. This is the equivalent of $18,718.87 per year today. That same school is now $60,000 per year. I went there for one year.
Then I changed directions and went to community college, followed by public state university. I paid $264 per year at the community college which is $1,098.17 in today's dollars or $2,200 per year. My public state univesity was $300 per semester, or $1,247.92 in today's dollars, or $2,500 per year. So this is equivalent to about $10,000 in today's dollars. No sweat.
>There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life.
It used to be this way, when I paid what I paid. Now, with costs going to $240,000 to get an undergraduate degree, this statement of yours is .... I can't think of a diplomatic and tactful way of saying it. But it is the worst idea ever. Especially since most degrees you will be paying that date for forever.
>T1 is more marketing than substance.
This is not news. It's always been this way. People knew this 40 years ago, when I was going to universiity. The reason one goes to the T1 schools has always been known to get the connections. Always. I used to work at a firm and they ONLY would hire from T1 universities. Made boatloads of money, too.
>Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
Only to you and those who agree with you. I don't think that way and there are billions of parents all over the world who would literally chop of their right arm to get their kinds into Harvard, Stanford, or any T1s. So I'm sure you are outnumbered there.
The only reason you think it is obscene is because you have some idealogical glasses on about what "should be" in some kind of perfect world.
Finally, I noticed zero differences from the small private university vs the public state university. I think if one develops a good personality and isn't socially awkward, then one can succeed no matter where they go. But for sure, with a Stanford or Harvard degree, the world really is your oyster. For sure. You can do anything with an elite degree, comparatively speaking.
I did get a sense of who was extremely motivated and smart, and, by and large, those people have been the most successful, not the ones who came from money. The ones who came from money were more likely to take 'interesting' vs lucrative jobs, but most of the advantages of networking are knowing other highly motivated people who are at the top of other fields, but knowing rich people.
Apart from that, classes at top schools go faster and teach you more, and if you want to, you can take more of them for free. So many students get 5-7 years of mid-tier college content in 4 years, which tends to produce a better trajectory for lifetime earnings.
imo the reason to go to such a place is the lifestyle. The opportunity to make some friends as an adult while you still have a hefty amount of time for leisure; adjust your lifestyle from whatever shape it took in a traditional high school experience; and connect with a group of peers of whatever wealth / academic interest group you prefer is pretty great. Not to say this can’t be done in a community college, but I would imagine it’s less of a dorm vacation.
But most don't get that, and with many private universities at $250K for 4 years, it simply is the worst choice someone can make - to be saddled with that debt. Unless as also stated elsewhere, if you go to a T1 school.
I actually did go to my first year to a small private university but that was long ago when it was reasonable. $4,500 for room, board, and tuition. That same exact university is now $60,000 for the same thing. And bringing $4,500 to present day, that is equivalent to about $18,000.
I saw zero difference in lifestyle myself. I think this is just one of the things that small universities say to justify their fucked up tuition price. Maybe 40 years ago, you can go for lifestyle, but now....no fucking way. How is a lifestyle worth $250,000?
Yes, in a community college it didn'th happen, but it did when I went to the next 2 years at public university in a university town.
Also, at the community college, actually I did meet people and hung out with them, as well as made excellent friends elsewhere that I still am friends with.
But the whole "dorm vacation"" idea is a loser idea, unless you have a full ride. I can think of a lot of other vacations that I could afford with $240,000. The reason to go to university is one single reason these days - to get one single piece of paper. You are paying for one sheet of paper. That's it. Today. Not 40 and 50 years ago...then it was ok to go for the "experience" and I mean that. But not now. Hells no. Those days are long gone. Shit, you could get a degree in English or History or whatever you wished because you could easily pay for university. Now....best only to get a computer science or business degree. For anything else, just learn on Udemy or Khan academy. No other degrees pays back the cost of college.
By the way, here in California, one can go to community college and 2 years of California State University and get a university degree for $15,000 to $20,000 in total. Total cost of a degree (not including room, board and books but one has to pay that anywhere - tuition is issue). Best deal in the world.
For people whose best available alternative is not to go to college at all, I’d recommend community college + 2 years at a state school with no hesitation. In other cases I don’t think it makes sense to paint with such broad strokes - it depends on the particular student’s career aspirations and the particular college’s aptitude at positioning students to succeed in that field.
I volunteer with a non-profit trying to fix this problem. Check us out?
https://mentorsintech.com/
I think the major issue is communication ability, social abilities, and all that. Someone can have the "ideal best" education, but without social skills, it all does not matter.
I've risen to the top of many (small, small) organizations because I understood about social skills and finding out who you need to know and get to be friends with in a company. Being friends with the right people gets you far, far, far ahead of anyone else.
I've also got all my jobs through cold outreach. I don't care, I'm pretty fearless and have done a shitload of tradeshows, and sales, and all kinds of stuff like that.
I think the thing that hold most people back is social skills and political skills and the ways one can become known as the experts in their industry.
It's all on youtube, if you look. Social skills, small talk, business politics, dressing appropriately (I spent a LOT of time at high end men's stores and read GQ from cover to cover for years). https://www.gq.com/ How one dresses is extremely important. Read it for a year or two, go to high end men's stores - Saks Fifth Avenue for example - https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/mens - go in, try stuff on. Look around.
I have friends that didn't go to university and are making mid to high six figures. If they can, so can you. Don't let your own mind defeat you, make it your ally.
I think this is generally true, but for me it was actually cheaper to go to a private university due to scholarships from the private school and zero financial aid from the public one.
But most private universities are $30-40K/year in tuition. I, for one, am an idiot and qualified for zero kinds of scholarships or aid. You're one of the smarties, so good on you!
This model works pretty well except it isn’t very transparent until you apply and get a financial aid offer. This can lead to some people not even applying because they think they will never be able to afford it. So a one price for everyone regardless of talent/need is making a comeback.
only until the government stops lending tuition money to anyone with a pulse will the true, economic cost of higher education come down. in order to do that, a politician will need to commit political suicide to propose such legislation, which will never happen.
couple that with the "go to college and get a good job" mentality in the US and it's no surprise nearly all US high school students feel compelled to borrow a truck-load of money and go to college.
why do we look down on the trades? i have friends who never went to college, learned a skill, and are making gobs of money (with no debt to service!).