If your battery is easily replaceable there might be a market for it. This is a classical hen-egg problem and to first force batteries to be replaceable is a good start.
(This post has been written on a modern smart phone with a replaceable battery).
>If your battery is easily replaceable there might be a market for it.
There already is a market for every phone battery ever made, even though they're not easily removable. The problem is they're mostly fakes or used parts masquerading as new after the scammers have reset their chips. That's the issue that this EU law won't fix.
If we could buy the parts directly from the manufacturers supply chain (with the added cost) we'd all be saved.
Yeah, I replaced batteries in devices where replacing the battery meant removing the (glued in) display and the (also glued in) battery more than once before. That is just not something regular people can do.
There are plenty of battery makers that make just as good battery replacements for way less money. My old ThinkPad got a $30 fake battery and is better than ever, in my Canon Camera I even prefer the 'fake' battery, as it's slightly longer living.
And I still sometimes find Nokia 3310 compatible batteries in things like cheap china remotes.
Pretty sure once there is a real market there will be more than enough alternatives with any quality you could ask for.
a real one could too, see Samsung or any toy e-scooters. There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries.
Imagine how big the market is for cameras alone. Just a quick glance at Amazon shows you there are 2-3 companies that have nothing but good reputation for their 'fakes'
With a real battery from someone like Samsung i know who I can hold accountable and sue for damages when that happens. Especially since Samsung has a legal entity in my country. But good luck doing anything with Lucky Star Battery LLC China.
>There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries
Which are the ones that make reputable phone batteries?
I saw a YouTuber buy half a dozen iphone 6 batteries off the internet and all were found to be fake or original refurbished with significant wear.
I have 0 expertise in phone battery replacements. All I am saying is there is a market for these things once the specs are open and user can choose themselfs.
Well my initial post you replied to was precisely about phone batteries if you would be so kind to read it again. So...
>All I am saying is there is a market for these things once the specs are open and user can choose themselfs.
And I told you already that the market has existed for a long time and is now flooded by low quality fakes and knockoffs that can set your house on fire. So we need legislation to force manufacturer to sell original batteries to the consumers instead of having consumers go online or to dodgy corner shops and risk buying dangerous fakes.
I have 0 expertise in phone battery replacements, but I have one recent experience of a neighbour in my apartment building recharging his electric scooter, and a dodgy (or cheap or both) battery in the said scooter blowing up at 3am in the morning on a cold winter night decimating the neighbour's apartment and with sprinklers flooding two stories with water. Residents from both floors could not return to their apartments for a day (the floor above) and two (on the floor where the explosion happened).
The fire brigade attending the scene told me that the only reason the neighbour survived the blast was due to him recharing the battery in a spare bedroom. The explosion nearly vapourised the bedroom door, threw what remained of it out, and it blew the window frame out as well. There was a gaping hole on that side of the building. Luckily, the ordeal took place seven stories below me, but, no, I do not want the same thing to happen anywhere in the nearest vicinity ever again.
No, it doesn't console me that phone batteries are smaller, and the physical damage would be less. If a dodgy battery in someone's phone explodes whilst their are handling the phone in their hands, I do not want to wish anyone to be that person who could lose a limb, an eyesight, an eye (or both), or a permutation thereof. People do stupid things, and some will do absolutely them one day (i.e. manually installing a dodgy knock-off battery into their phone and accidentally shortening the contacts).
Maybe but not because it's a "fake" but because it's low quality. Anything that is dangerous and doesn't meet safety regulations should be banned. But there's nothing inherently wrong with 3rd party parts, batteries or otherwise.
> Three and a half years after the entry into force of the legislation, portable batteries in appliances must be designed so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves.
> One recent example is the mandatory use of USB-C ports for wired charging by 2024, in order to reduce electrical waste by allowing the same chargers to be used for all small consumer electronics devices. This comes into force in 2024, and Apple is expected to comply a year ahead of time by swapping out the Lightning port on iPhones for USB-C as of next year’s iPhone 15.
Real sad about this. I’ve had a lot of Android and iOS phones, and by comparison to USB-C, the Lightning connector is more secure and gives a nice tactile click when it’s inserted fully.
If Apple open-sourced their connectors and involved other manufacturers and stake-holders, we might have had both. But the extra profits from accessories was obviously too hard to ignore.
That said, lightning is probably more complicated and expensive to manufacture vs USB-C, and then they would have had to either compete or compromise with the USB Implementers Forum[0] instead of creating something in their vision.
>so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves
Completely idiotic and out of touch. Phones are glued shut for a reason. User replacable batteries are not compatible with slim waterproof phones.
My last phone lasted almost 5 years. It survived that long because water didn't kill it. Yes, I would have liked to just replace the battery at some point, but if I could have, it wouldn't have lasted as long.
If you want people to use their phones for long you have to:
- Not impede the manufacturers ability to create water/damage resistant phones.
- Force manufacturers to sell spare parts which can be used to service the phones.
- Mandate Updates for long periods. How is it okay for a phone to have 2 years of updates? At that point battery degrdaation isn't even that relevant.
I agree, there are physical compromises that will have to be made for removable batteries. The phone will be bulkier or have a smaller battery and the overall design more complex even more so to achieve the same waterproofness.
Meanwhile I have never replaced a battery in my iPhones, they have all lasted years, more recent ones with optimized charging seem like no noticeable degradation.
This kind of law would be similarly idiotic in EV's now they can't use structural batteries to lower weight? Why isn't there a law mandating easily removable gas tanks in cars?
There were plenty of phones with removable batteries for many years. They left the market because there is barely a market for them. Once you have multiple day battery life and batteries that last 5+ years with little degradation in slim fully waterproof designs nobody cares about swapping batteries easily, take it in to the shop if the fuel tank needs replacing or trade it in for a new one.
With a 500 full cycle to 80% capacity, that two years if you drained it 100% to 0% every day and the battery still has 80% of its original capacity. To get to 50% capacity should be 5 years, again only if you ran your battery down empty every single day for 5 years.
So lets have a complicated waterproof quick release battery case adding weight and volume to the phone so that its easy to replace once every 5 years...
I don't think Apple is trying to make the iPhones slimmer or lightweight-er. The weight and shape seems to be a feature now so that it can appeal to a certain audience. I believe the previous iphone design had less weight and was slimmer too.
I'm sure waterproof/damage resistent phones can be made along with easy replaceable batteries. It's a policy issue not an engineering one. Worst case scenario they could provide you a "kit" to replace the battery(i.e a special screwdriver like they do for the SIM card)
>> Force manufacturers to sell spare parts which can be used to service the phones.
I think there is already an EU law for that that will come into effect soon.
>> - Mandate Updates for long periods. How is it okay for a phone to have 2 years of updates?
This should be the next step and I'm sure it will happen soon. Part of the solution to this is the incoming law that will force Apple to accept apps outside of its store and 3rd party appstores. That way app updates will no longer be restricted by Apple. Next should be a law to provide security OS updates for at least (i.e 10 years) or open (source) the OS for 3rd party updates.
One thing is sure. There must be laws to stop the planned obsolescence. It went too far and is detrimental to both the consumer and the environment.
well... it's a flip phone. It has multiple remappable buttons, usb c, headphone jack, nano sim, sd card. I imagine you could change the form factor a bit to reduce the size.
Despite I don't need a second feature phone (only smartphone because I need some apps) and I don't talk that much anyway (sometimes even 0 hours/month), but I still sometimes have the urge to buy a rugged flip, just for the sake of it, be it Moto Tundra or this one.
I really wish there were more smartphones with physical keyboards. I'd like to be able to use something with good battery life and a full qwerty keyboard. Realistically I don't need a lot of apps on a phone. I really need the authenticator apps though, and I'd like easy access to telegram/MMS/element.
I like the intentionality you have when you type with a physical keyboard. Been focusing on UIs as of late and think we lose something when our interfaces are purely digital.
Nobody in the thread seems to have mentioned this, but I really wouldn't rate the chances of average consumers messing with LiPos not (at least sometimes) ending in immolation very highly.
The kind of people who post on this site or get involved in repairing stuff aren't the same as the kind of person who opens a battery door and launches their AAs across the room with a screwdriver. If someone tries that with a glued down LiPo, they'll get a thermal event to the face.
You can solve this problem more easily by mandating a lifetime battery warranty, if you're that desperate to.
42 comments
[ 0.23 ms ] story [ 113 ms ] threadIf you shop online for new batteries for old phones you're most likely getting a fake or an old battery repackaged as "new".
EU should first force the manufacturers to actually sell you original batteries for the phones they sell.
(This post has been written on a modern smart phone with a replaceable battery).
There already is a market for every phone battery ever made, even though they're not easily removable. The problem is they're mostly fakes or used parts masquerading as new after the scammers have reset their chips. That's the issue that this EU law won't fix.
If we could buy the parts directly from the manufacturers supply chain (with the added cost) we'd all be saved.
And I still sometimes find Nokia 3310 compatible batteries in things like cheap china remotes.
Pretty sure once there is a real market there will be more than enough alternatives with any quality you could ask for.
Imagine how big the market is for cameras alone. Just a quick glance at Amazon shows you there are 2-3 companies that have nothing but good reputation for their 'fakes'
With a real battery from someone like Samsung i know who I can hold accountable and sue for damages when that happens. Especially since Samsung has a legal entity in my country. But good luck doing anything with Lucky Star Battery LLC China.
>There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries
Which are the ones that make reputable phone batteries?
I saw a YouTuber buy half a dozen iphone 6 batteries off the internet and all were found to be fake or original refurbished with significant wear.
Well my initial post you replied to was precisely about phone batteries if you would be so kind to read it again. So...
>All I am saying is there is a market for these things once the specs are open and user can choose themselfs.
And I told you already that the market has existed for a long time and is now flooded by low quality fakes and knockoffs that can set your house on fire. So we need legislation to force manufacturer to sell original batteries to the consumers instead of having consumers go online or to dodgy corner shops and risk buying dangerous fakes.
The fire brigade attending the scene told me that the only reason the neighbour survived the blast was due to him recharing the battery in a spare bedroom. The explosion nearly vapourised the bedroom door, threw what remained of it out, and it blew the window frame out as well. There was a gaping hole on that side of the building. Luckily, the ordeal took place seven stories below me, but, no, I do not want the same thing to happen anywhere in the nearest vicinity ever again.
No, it doesn't console me that phone batteries are smaller, and the physical damage would be less. If a dodgy battery in someone's phone explodes whilst their are handling the phone in their hands, I do not want to wish anyone to be that person who could lose a limb, an eyesight, an eye (or both), or a permutation thereof. People do stupid things, and some will do absolutely them one day (i.e. manually installing a dodgy knock-off battery into their phone and accidentally shortening the contacts).
https://replique.io/2021/03/15/right-to-repair-regulation-ma...
Not for everything, but it's a start.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20221205IP...
> Three and a half years after the entry into force of the legislation, portable batteries in appliances must be designed so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves.
Real sad about this. I’ve had a lot of Android and iOS phones, and by comparison to USB-C, the Lightning connector is more secure and gives a nice tactile click when it’s inserted fully.
That said, lightning is probably more complicated and expensive to manufacture vs USB-C, and then they would have had to either compete or compromise with the USB Implementers Forum[0] instead of creating something in their vision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Implementers_Forum
Completely idiotic and out of touch. Phones are glued shut for a reason. User replacable batteries are not compatible with slim waterproof phones.
My last phone lasted almost 5 years. It survived that long because water didn't kill it. Yes, I would have liked to just replace the battery at some point, but if I could have, it wouldn't have lasted as long.
If you want people to use their phones for long you have to:
- Not impede the manufacturers ability to create water/damage resistant phones.
- Force manufacturers to sell spare parts which can be used to service the phones.
- Mandate Updates for long periods. How is it okay for a phone to have 2 years of updates? At that point battery degrdaation isn't even that relevant.
Meanwhile I have never replaced a battery in my iPhones, they have all lasted years, more recent ones with optimized charging seem like no noticeable degradation.
This kind of law would be similarly idiotic in EV's now they can't use structural batteries to lower weight? Why isn't there a law mandating easily removable gas tanks in cars?
There were plenty of phones with removable batteries for many years. They left the market because there is barely a market for them. Once you have multiple day battery life and batteries that last 5+ years with little degradation in slim fully waterproof designs nobody cares about swapping batteries easily, take it in to the shop if the fuel tank needs replacing or trade it in for a new one.
Because the petrol tank won’t have shrunk to half its capacity in a few years’ time.
So lets have a complicated waterproof quick release battery case adding weight and volume to the phone so that its easy to replace once every 5 years...
https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jun/23/samsung-a...
I'm sure waterproof/damage resistent phones can be made along with easy replaceable batteries. It's a policy issue not an engineering one. Worst case scenario they could provide you a "kit" to replace the battery(i.e a special screwdriver like they do for the SIM card)
>> Force manufacturers to sell spare parts which can be used to service the phones.
I think there is already an EU law for that that will come into effect soon.
>> - Mandate Updates for long periods. How is it okay for a phone to have 2 years of updates?
This should be the next step and I'm sure it will happen soon. Part of the solution to this is the incoming law that will force Apple to accept apps outside of its store and 3rd party appstores. That way app updates will no longer be restricted by Apple. Next should be a law to provide security OS updates for at least (i.e 10 years) or open (source) the OS for 3rd party updates.
One thing is sure. There must be laws to stop the planned obsolescence. It went too far and is detrimental to both the consumer and the environment.
They are still glued. Replacement is possible, but requires skill, tools (heating, shim) and replacement seals. Definitely not "easy".
>I don't think Apple is trying to make the iPhones slimmer or lightweight-er.
If that were true there would be lots of space in the device.
> It's a policy issue not an engineering one
It is definitely an engineering issue. Removable backs are hard to do and hard to do right.
I like the intentionality you have when you type with a physical keyboard. Been focusing on UIs as of late and think we lose something when our interfaces are purely digital.
The kind of people who post on this site or get involved in repairing stuff aren't the same as the kind of person who opens a battery door and launches their AAs across the room with a screwdriver. If someone tries that with a glued down LiPo, they'll get a thermal event to the face.
You can solve this problem more easily by mandating a lifetime battery warranty, if you're that desperate to.
Oh, and thanks also to the EU for condemning all my Lightning cables and accessories to landfill. Nice one.