HN Explorer

Ask HN: Is there a better model than flagging?

10 points by mactavish88 ↗ HN
I submitted a link today that got flagged pretty quickly. My original intention was to make people aware of the fact that it seems as though a large number of scientists have signed a declaration claiming that “there is no climate emergency”.

I make no claim as to the accuracy of their declaration, and neither support nor deny their claim. I’m not a climate scientist.

It seems like a really bad idea though to immediately suppress this kind of information as opposed to being able to have a conversation about it.

In general, if any contrarian opinions arise and are immediately flagged and suppressed, does that not just turn HN into an echo chamber? Is there not a better model than flag/suppress?

EDIT: My concern with this particular question and submission is not about the content of the articles themselves. (Beyond the fact that they're being linked all over Twitter atm and, if this is a misinformation campaign, then it seems to be gaining traction now in 2022 again)

This particular question is UX-oriented and has to do with:

1. I'm concerned about how HN shapes my perspective if the flagging process could suppress meaningful conversation. (Yes, I consume a variety of other sources of information too, and I'm also concerned about how they shape my perspective) In essence, a select few users with enough karma watching for incoming content could shape the entire discourse on HN. Who are these users, and why should I trust their paradigms in shaping mine?

2. The UX involved in flagging on HN seems like it could be improved if there was a reason attached to it. Or some other automated mechanism to immediately notify the submitter as to prior conversation on the topic that isn't available via searching for the topic on HN first.

44 comments

[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 99.6 ms ] thread
theCrowing
People can vouch for your submission, nobody did.
mactavish88
How does that help if the post’s not alive for long enough for more than a handful of people to see it?
theCrowing
The headline of the site and your submission is also just plain wrong. Maybe there is no manmade climate emergency but there is most certainly a climate emergency. Also there is nothing scientific on the site only an open letter... it's just really bad content. You don't know how many people have seen or voted on it you are just believing that nobody has seen it. Multiple users need to flag your post before it becomes [flagged] and even more need to flag it for it to become [dead].
amurf
Only if there was a link so the rest of us knew what is being talked about.
theCrowing
Go into your profile and activate "showdead" after that click his profile and you will see his [dead] and [flagged] submissions.
mactavish88
I think this is the key problem. It seems you assume I have a particular position on climate change, as opposed to my actual intention of making people aware of this declaration. Those are very different positions.

Also, my second submission was a link to a specific page on the site where I copied/pasted the title verbatim, and it was flagged immediately.

This leads me to believe that my post wasn’t flagged because of an inaccurate title, but because someone really didn’t want (and didn’t want others) to see the post.

theCrowing
The only thing I see is unscientific content that was released by Guus Berkhout. The site was flagged 3 times before so maybe it's even autoflagged because it's been peddling bullshit since 2019 but who knows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guus_Berkhout

mactavish88
Don’t you think it’s at least be insightful for whoever’s submitting content to understand why it was flagged?

If it’s content a submitter’s come across for the first time, and they don’t see it discussed here on HN, so they post it, and it immediately gets suppressed without any explanation, how does that help the submitter? (e.g. if it’s been autoflagged, it’d be helpful to see a reason for that, and perhaps a link to past discussion the submitter might have missed).

It just concerns me that this mechanism could be prematurely filtering out many valuable conversations that I’d like to be aware of.

acdha
One thing to remember is that this an old debate and there’s been a ton of astroturf on behalf of the fossil fuel industry since at least the 1980s. Those operatives rely on making things sound plausible so it’s not your fault for finding it interesting - making it sound that way is quite literally these guy’s jobs - but you’ll get their accumulated bad karma as people see it, recognize the source as a bad faith actor, and don’t want to spend their time rehashing something for the dozenth time.

I’d recommend searching a bit first but also avoid the sources like that who are trying to use your credibility on behalf of their clients. They will shed no tears for the cost to your reputation, which is deplorable but also predictable.

theCrowing
That's your problem. If you see your content flagged immediately your first course of action is complaining about it? Why not do the rational thing and google it so you can understand why other people flag it. As I said it's not my job to make you comprehend that the content you submitted is subpar quality. It's yours.
mactavish88
Maybe just move on with your life and don’t engage with the content if you’re not interested?
theCrowing
No, I care about the communities I participate in so if I see misinformation in "new" I flag it. (I didn't flag your submissions)
jacquesm
They do exactly what you want: engage with you, even though you seem to have already made up your mind about the desired outcome (which you aren't going to get). And then you tell them to move on with their life? That's pretty rude.

To me this whole thread looks like a way to social engineer your way around getting your articles flagged in spite of that being the most democratic mechanism to keep HN on track.

mactavish88
Did you perhaps read the primary text of this submission?

It seems like everyone commenting here is totally missing the point of why I submitted this question in the first place and is so fixated on the content of the links I originally submitted that they just can’t see the actual questions I’m asking.

I’m tired of engaging with people who refuse to engage with the actual questions I asked.

mactavish88
But also, if there was at least a reason tagged along with the flagging, that could be helpful to submitters, don’t you think? Making people guess as to the reason for flagging seems like poor UX to me, and increases the overall hostility of the site to users.

Also, those links I posted are of far less importance to me than my actual concern in terms of how HN and other sites shape my perception of the world based on their UX design. That is the reason I posed this question. Not to complain about my posts getting flagged.

theCrowing
As a member of a community or site, it is important to take the time to familiarize yourself with the guidelines and frequently asked questions in order to understand how it operates. There are numerous threads available discussing user-driven moderation on this platform, some even addressing the same concerns you have raised. It seems that you have not made an effort to understand the rules and features of the site, leading to a fundamental misunderstanding and criticism that may not be warranted. It is worth noting that these rules have remained unchanged for the past decade, despite the political and global pandemic events of recent years.

Instead of contributing to the repetition of discussions on this topic, it may be more productive to seek out information and consider the possibility that the issue may lie with your own understanding and usage of the site. Additionally, making false claims about search results on a particular search engine only serves to undermine the credibility of your perspective. Alone because of the duckduckgo fib I am ending the discussion, at least for me. I hope you have a pleasant day.

mactavish88
As per my comment on your other thread:

> Here you go, my first page of hits on mobile: https://imgur.com/a/zSL5fVX

> Only when I got to my laptop now did the set of links differ: https://imgur.com/a/EuUt7U5

> Clearly not the same set of results for the same search.

Re: this site's guidelines, I find your comment here a little disingenuous and far too generous towards HN's "guidelines". The mere fact that such content as this exists suggests that HN's guidelines are quite opaque: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented

theCrowing
It appears that you may have misunderstood the distinction between guidelines and their enforcement. While the guidelines themselves are public, the methods of enforcement are not made publicly available in order to prevent individuals from attempting to circumvent them.

> See that's another you problem you changed something and now your search results are distorted. Here are screenshots from 5 different VPN locations with different browsers and different user agents... https://imgur.com/a/P4zoAzf

yuppie_scum
Well now you know, dude. Take the L on this post and move on with your life.
logicalmonster
> there is most certainly a climate emergency

For what it's worth, I'd most strongly disagree with your use of the phrase "there is most certainly" there. There's nothing objective in science that declares what an "emergency" is. Deciding whether or not any situation is an emergency can never be the result of any science experiment.

IMO, most disagreements about "science" that crop up about contentious topics aren't really science disagreements, they're subjective risk-management disagreements.

Two people can look at the objective statistics about a situation and one person might see it as an emergency and one might not. They're technically both right because this is subjective in nature.

theCrowing
I utilized the term in reference to the flagged submission for the sake of simplicity and ease of comprehension for the individual in question. The term 'emergency' carries connotations and should be used with caution when describing any situation.
_Microft
Anyone who chose to enable the option "Show dead" (comments/submissions) in the settings can still see the title and vouch for it if they like.
mactavish88
This is not the default mode of browsing facilitated by HN, so the system inherently lends itself to killing contrarian perspectives long before there can be any meaningful discussion about them.

To me, there’s nothing more powerful than someone posting a contrarian perspective and there being a highly upvoted, well-reasoned/cited response as to why the contrarian perspective isn’t valid. This I would prefer over having those contrarian perspectives suppressed, and I never get to see or engage with them.

defrost
You submitted two links, both to an industry group headed up by Guus Berkhout:

[quote]

  Berkhout founded the Netherlands-based organization Climate Intelligence Foundation (CLINTEL).

  Mid 2019 plans of CLINTEL and Berkhout were leaked showing that they were organizing a campaign against political commitments to net zero carbon emissions being made into law. The campaign features a number of academics and industry figures with ties to climate change sceptics groups, as well as members from oil and gas companies.

  Berkhout claimed the ideal of the organization was to provide an alternative to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

  In late September 2019 the group produced an open letter which presented a European Climate Declaration, stating that there was no climate emergency and repeating a number of claims that were inconsistent with the scientific evidence on climate.

  A fact check performed by climate scientists for Climate Feedback gave the letter an overall scientific credibility of "very low", and tagged it as "Biased, Cherry-picking, Inaccurate, Misleading".

  The analysis also added that, out of the roughly 500 signatories, only 10 self-identified as climate scientists. 

  The document was later rebranded as the World Climate Declaration.
[/quote]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guus_Berkhout

Climate Science (as laid out by the IPCC) is akin to Foucoult's Pendulum; the earth rotates, and human activity is altering the atmosphere in a measurable manner that traps more heat energy than is normally retained.

You may have a contrarian opinion about measurable facts .. but there are bars and cafes for those.

mactavish88
So this is exactly the perspective I’m looking for from HN.

If my post (which clearly wasn’t for or against the linked material) was not immediately flagged and killed then it would’ve been possible to actually solicit this kind of perspective.

But if my post is immediately killed then I never get to see this kind of insight.

Hence my question about whether there’s a better model than simply flagging content, as HN currently works.

[dead] theCrowing
[flagged]
mactavish88
Who said you had to do the work?

If this was a topic that was somehow discussed previously, should there not be some kind of mechanism to indicate this in the flagging process? (Ideally automated)

theCrowing
Clintel was even in the news cycle a few years ago and you submit it without even googling it before? You impute that I have a particular stance on climate change, but I honestly believe you have because no person without an agenda would play naive like you.

I myself just hate misinformation and people that share and play victim when nobody engages with it.

mactavish88
I get literally nothing from the news search in DuckDuckGo when I search for “clintel”

It still seems you assume I have a particular agenda here beyond wanting to have a conversation on the topic.

theCrowing
Now you also play blind... so, you pretend that you didn't see the articles linked below before you pressed the "news" button?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=clintel&t=h_&ia=web

First Page Results:

https://www.desmog.com/climate-intelligence-foundation-clint...

https://insideclimatenews.org/todaysclimate/experts-debunk-v...

https://www.thequint.com/climate-change/1200-scientists-clai...

https://climatefeedback.org/evaluation/letter-signed-by-500-...

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2019-09-16/climate-scienc...

mactavish88
I get none of those links on the first page. It took several pages of search results before I started seeing any of the links you’ve shared here.
theCrowing
Now you are just lying...

DuckDuckGo doesn't profile its users according to their search patterns, and everyone gets the same search results. [1]

[1] https://spreadprivacy.com/google-filter-bubble-study/

EDIT: Yeah, maybe he wasn't lying but the standard search results from 5 different VPN locations with different browsers and user agents is linked below. still sus.

mactavish88
Here you go, my first page of hits on mobile: https://imgur.com/a/zSL5fVX

Only when I got to my laptop now did the set of links differ: https://imgur.com/a/EuUt7U5

Clearly not the same set of results for the same search.

theCrowing
See that's another you problem you changed something and now your search results are distorted. Here are screenshots from 5 different VPN locations with different browsers and different user agents... https://imgur.com/a/P4zoAzf
Gunnerhead
Can you please not say things such as “you also play blind”? You’re being mean and snarky, completely violating HN guidelines. We can all benefit from kind and helpful interactions, that’s what makes this website great.

“Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Edit out swipes.” [1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

theCrowing
If someone argues in good faith I would probably do it but he is clearly trying to gaslight here. Or do you believe DDG is jeopardizing an essential part of their search business just to fuck with him?
Gunnerhead
I think we should give everyone the benefit of the doubt and be kind.
theCrowing
You are right, it is important to approach them with an open mind and to give others the benefit of the doubt. However, if someone begins to engage in gaslighting tactics, it becomes necessary to confront and challenge their behavior in order to prevent them from manipulating and distorting the conversation. Gaslighting is a harmful and insidious form of manipulation that seeks to undermine the credibility and reality of others, and it is essential to stand up to it in order to maintain the integrity and honesty of the discussion. By actively and assertively addressing gaslighting, we can create a safer and more respectful space for open and honest discourse even if being assertive means writing less candid than usual.
whythre
I am trying not to read this with hostile intent, but seriously, why discuss or ask anything if the OP could just be told to do the mental legwork themselves? Sometimes outside perspective is helpful.
theCrowing
I perceive the lack of basic research or education on a subject as a sign of hostile intent especially when an individual creates a thread and expresses their views vehemently without proper knowledge or understanding. It's not even a topic (HN moderation) that is hard to research, he just didn't. It's also a repeating pattern he did the same with his initial submission and afterwards with this thread. 1-2 hours after he submitted the thread, he pivoted to his UX argument which makes even less sense because that's fundamentally his problem he needs to understand the site he is on, and he didn't even know about the "showdead" switch in the profile view. Which means in close to 4 years he didn't read the FAQ. How can you advocate for change if you don't even understand the system that is in place and without doing even the most basic research yourself?
hotpotamus
How do we know that this large number of scientists actually exist? Have you met each of them and read their work? How do we know that you even submitted a link earlier?
version_five
I saw your submission and I think this is a case where flagging worked well.

My understanding of HN objectives is to promote new and interesting conversation. A "anthropogenic climate change is not real" article doesn't promote a good discussion, it just prompts people to rehash the same old stuff. Not to say that every new article about what Elon Musk did leads to any better conversation, but even many of those get flagged, and at least they are tracking a current event relevant to tech. There is no significant new information in sites like what you posted.

As a secondary point, but no doubt it helped getting the article flagged, it's a low-quality single agenda website that nobody has heard of and has all the hallmarks of a slightly crazy "fake news" (advertorial, whatever you want to call it) site. If an even slightly reputable real news org covered this, it might get flagged less. Though it would still probably lead to the same boring debate and ultimately get flagged anyway

troydavis
Your first submission may have been flagged because you wrote (“editorialized”) the title instead of using the actual page title. As https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html says: “Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize.”

(Also, the title you chose may have been seen as an attempt to attract extra attention or skew the discussion. Whatever your actual intention, there’s little patience for that.)

jacquesm
HN has its own mechanisms to keep trash off the homepage, those mechanisms worked as intended. Please don't litter.