Ask HN: I achieved my dream of being a self-taught dev. I hate it. Now what?
At first, I was thrilled. I do enjoy coding to an extent, and thought that this was my "big break". But after doing it for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, I've come to realize that I don't enjoy it all that much after all. It was an escape after a hard days work. It was a way for me to relax. But sitting down, alone, in front of a computer screen all day every day is slowly driving me mad. My mental health is slowly getting worse and I've come to realize that I need some amount of human interaction and, more importantly, some amount of movement and physical activity. I don't believe it's my company, coworkers, or manager that makes me dislike my work. The problems I solve are interesting, my manager is truly incredible, and my coworker are all kind, encouraging, and helpful. It's simply the nature of the job, I'm certain I'd feel similar with almost any desk job where I toil in front of a screen day in and day out. I just didn't realize it as I'd never really had a truly white collar job prior. I also should note that I don't try to derive meaning or fulfillment solely from my employment. I go to the gym, I train MMA, I even dabble in stand-up comedy (though public speaking certainly is not my forte). All that to say, I don't expect to be 100% fulfilled from any job, but I just can't handle the 40+ hours a week of complete inactivity and nearly complete isolation.
I have the GI Bill, which grants me 4 free years of tuition at any public university in the country. I'm strongly considering quitting and using it. The only thing holding me back is that I have no idea whatsoever what I could do that I actually would enjoy and would meet my physical and social needs without overloading them. Too much socialization or physical activity for me is almost as bad as none whatsoever. I've come to terms with the fact that I'll almost certainly have to take a pay cut, and that's okay. I'm willing to earn less in exchange for my mental health, but only to a point. The ratio of income lost to happiness gained should be at least roughly equal.
I'm blessed to have the opportunity, time, and means to drastically alter my career path in my early-mid 20's but at the same time I'm overwhelmed with options. And I fear choosing the wrong one as I don't want to be in this same position 4 years from now.
I've tried introspecting and narrowing down my options based on my interests, but I can't think of a single career I'd like to actually make out of my interests. Working out and MMA isn't something I would want to make a career out of as it's just a way to blow off steam, and I don't have the desire to do stand-up comedy professionally. The only other interest I've had over the past ~5 years has been programming. Which I do enjoy, just not enough. Aptitude isn't a concern. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm certain that I could perform well doing whatever I decide, so long as the interest is there. I'm hoping that just maybe there's some perfect career path out there that I just haven't heard of or thought about yet.
After that novella, I open the floor to you. What are some good options for me to consider? What would you do if you were in my situation? Is there anything else I haven't thought of?
Thanks if you've taken the time to read thi...
64 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 121 ms ] threadEverything we use is made by someone else, you just trained yourself because you could not find a mentor, so you found many.
Good luck.
https://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/
I would consider using it. That would put you around a lot of people on a regular basis that are younger than you that can learn from your experience. More connections is a good thing. You don't really know your co-workers. That is why they are great but they ARENT KEEPING YOU HAPPY.
If you have enough resources to survive, I suggest going back to university.
Either way, I think gaining the perspective you have gained is great. There's probably far more jobs you don't want to do than jobs you do want to do, so finding out you don't like a job is not just normal/healthy but also very likely. Don't feel like you don't have any prospects, being critical is good and you just need to try more things (which school will help you do).
The coding jobs I've had which I enjoyed the most was where I had a good team which was in competition with another good team, either at the same company or at different companies. Think how boring football would be without the element of competition. If they payed you to just carry a football up and down the field for 8 hours a day, how boring would that be?
Get some frenemies :-)
Maybe pivot into IT work that involves more physical activities and social factors? Network engineering possibly? I imagine they move around more. Or ethical hacking. It sometimes includes physical pentests and social engineering. Maybe even IT management? Use that study voucher for it and return as the boss of geeks.
Being able to code is quite valuable so I would look into leveraging that.
If you're earning well right now maybe take some of that money and pay someone to help. People who know what kind of jobs are out there. Get a full assessment of your personality and skills. Are there agencies for this? Just spitballing here.
Lastly, try and see whether you already know deep down what you _really_ want but are too afraid to admit to yourself. That happens a lot.
I don't work in tech btw, so I have no idea what I'm talking about. Just a brainstorming session.
- A trade/construction job
- Engineer
- Vehicle Mechanic
- Pilot
- Diver
- Coastguard
- Firefighter
- Outdoor activities instructor
- Physical therapist
- Driving/motorcycle instructor
Also, if you don’t want to be a stand up or a PT have you thought about becoming a comedy club owner or gym owner?
You can move towards management if you get the big picture and only code things you like.
One of my managers in the past would attend meetings all day and strategize. If he found a project he liked, he'd delegate someone to attend his meetings.
He figured out a way to keep himself sane.
This is terrible advice.
you hate X but somehow you can be successful in leading, motivating, mentoring, and developing people who do X all day.
This is the cancer that infected big tech. A class of professional managers who provide little to no value but don’t want to leave because the grift is so easy.
Management allows you to control what you want to work on. OP wants enjoyment. Control provides it.
In fact OP would be the total opposite of normal management.
I'd say your mentality is toxic. People who can't code can ideate. You don't need to know X to be able to lead X. Many programmers actually suck at thinking outside the box and I'd sit on calls where nobody could figure it out. A business manager articulats the problem and it's solved in an hour.
Not true. You can set direction and vision only to the extent they align with your company and leaderships goals. If you fundamentally can’t stand what your subordinates do, I doubt you can successfully influence other leaders let alone be one yourself.
Thinking that being a manager will give you “control” couldnt be further from truth. Going into the role seeking control will have disastrous consequences, if not for you, then the people who you “control”. You have far less control and you need to motivate people to properly deliver on the thing which in this case you seem to despise.
> I'd say your mentality is toxic.
Attacking me personally doesn’t validate your argument and does opposite. Leave emotions out and stick with merits of your perspective. Thanks.
Your definition of control is different and conformist.
Management control their own destiny. Coder's don't in a business.
If your manager calls you have to answer. If you call them they can ignore it.
Your response is in the sense of the business growth. I'm speaking to your and your coworkers sanity.
I'm referring to having a job where you enjoy what you do. Your response suggests goals of fulfilling someone else's dreams which OP didn't suggest. He was referring to his own QOL.
Execs control destiny. Mid level managers can influence direction and provide a strategic and tactical vision on how to get there, but they have little control.
> If your manager calls you have to answer. If you call them they can ignore it.
”I’m not good at X so better to control people who do X because that somehow lets me have a better quality of life and people will have to bow to me.”
Hallmarks of an incompetent manager who is way in over their head. I question if I want this person as an IC, unless I can fit them into a role where they sit in a corner and can provide value while leaving everyone else alone. That attitude has potential to bring down an entire team.
I think the point is that you do.
> I'd sit on calls where nobody could figure it out. A business manager articulats the problem and it's solved in an hour
You'd have to define "thinking outside the box" - if you are suggesting that most programmers aren't creative I'd say you have no clue about most programmers. If its a call about a technical problem - no chance. But a random BA still isn't a tech manager.
This is the second time someone disagrees with your view, provides a well written response, and you respond back with a personal attack.
I can try to steel man the other side of the argument, even though I disagree with it. nothing in your comment is a coherent, reasonable response to the op.
I’m not a gate keeper of this community but please share nuanced ideas to defend your view point. For the second time now, stop the personal attacks.
> you agree with it and are triggered
> maybe you are part of that group and require introspective.
More personal attacks.
Here’s some advice for your personal benefit:
You can disagree with people and that’s fine. but share your ideas and respond to individual points you disagree with. avoid emotionally charged angry responses. you will only upset your self and drain mental energy thinking everyone else is out to get you. it’s unnecessary and unproductive
according to who? yourself?
Maybe you haven't grown, maybe your self assessment skill is just poor?
You can only be so good on your own.
Im relating it to my pay and happiness. Realizing your team is amazing is liberating.
So in addition to personal attacks, you’re using straw man defense.
?
Also green accounts are triggered.
It has been super rare for me to see managers who are just filling a position and grifting. Perhaps the only time was at a large defense contractor where I interned in college.
If sitting down is bad, and I agree that it is, what about a stand-up desk or a treadmill desk or just getting up every 30 to 60 minutes to walk around?
If being alone is the problem, then what about switching into a role like professional services, customer support, sales engineering, etc. where you're technical but you're working with customers?
As for college, I can only speak to my personal experience. I went to college at 26 and regret it. I often refer to it as my ‘lost years’
Social work: If you are interested in helping others and making a positive impact in your community, you might consider studying social work. This field involves working with individuals, families, and communities to promote social justice and help people overcome challenges.
Education: If you enjoy working with others and helping them learn and grow, you might consider studying education. This field involves teaching and working with students at various levels, from early childhood to higher education.
Healthcare: If you enjoy interacting with people and have strong organizational skills, you might consider studying a field in healthcare, such as nursing or medical assisting. These fields involve working with patients and providing support to healthcare professionals.
(I had a discussion with ChatGPT about your questions, and this was what we ended up with for study suggestions)
You could also become a digital nomad. The easy way is to just fuck off and leave the States (I assume bc GI bill ref). You can tramp around EU for 90 days without getting deported, no questions asked. If after 90 days you’re still unsatisfied, you could move onto Asia. The cost of living in EU is far cheaper than it is here, so if you can manage to just stash your stuff in a Pod for awhile, you’ll basically be on the level cost wise.
Why do this? You can keep the lucrative job (assuming you can find a good place to take meetings). You can force yourself to meet new people, you can absorb culture, and you can probably find a coworking/coffee shop in most cities.
You might be able to apply directly or you could try one of the bootcamp type programs they have around[0]. Try not to spend too much money on one (preferably zero).
Fortunately tech sales pays about the same as dev work, in some cases even more.
Whatever you choose good luck!
[0] https://bravado.co/lp/learn/techsalesu/
The coding experience cam help, and it provides more opportunities for being around people.
This isn't to say that you would enjoy the same career, only that moving from programming to something "programming adjacent" was absolutely the right move for me. I make much less money, but my philosophy has always been that it's better to find a job that I'll be happy with in the long run instead of feeling the constant need to FIRE or something else.
One thing you should keep in mind is that as you advance in the industry, you shouldn't need to spend every day programming. You can move into management. But the job remains pretty sedentary.
I always thought becoming a nurse or a physician's assistant (PA) seemed interesting. (Or a doctor if you can handle the long-term commitment.) Depending on the type of unit you find yourself in, the work can be physically demanding. People who do this kind of work appreciate people who are timely, reliable, and orderly. They also especially appreciate people who are physically strong. The work can be demanding and interesting and pays well. There is a decent amount of socializing, but it doesn't have to be all the time.
Without changing the industry completely, I know of two ways to make the experience more social:
- work from a coworking space (a smaller one where you actually get to know people and hang out) (edit, i assumed working from home, but that's probably not the case)
- Try sales engineer (or similar) positions - you still get to use the IT engineering skillset, but you become the interface to customers. A technical account manager is similar, but from support side.
Serious question/devil's advocate here: if a corporation/company/business/startup/whatever is paying you for 8 hours of work a day (8am -> 5pm with a 1 hour lunch in between), when are you supposed to talk to people in a co-working space?
Are you saying like, in between meetings, and when you aren't "heads down" tracking down bugs/looking at logs/writing documentation/writing code/writing tests, you just... shoot the shit throughout the day vocally across from one desk to another? Walk to a watercooler and hope somebody else is also randomly hanging out there throughout the day? How many times can you do that a day? Multiple 15 minute watercooler breaks a day? Go to a group lunch?
I feel like that would hurt the average person's productivity. Sounds like a lot of distractions.
Obviously humans aren't binary objects that are just "work non stop" or not with no feelings.
I just feel like you'd be replacing "I hate coding/being alone/no social aspect" with "I'm socialized but now I'm behind on my work/distracted/can't get any peace"
But yeah, for me that's just organic chat about anything when people are not deep into some task, group lunch, some tech chat about a "new thing", etc.
Even ignoring lunch, we all still take plenty of breaks throughout the day to decompress, stretch, walk, grab snacks, make coffee, and so on - during each of which we have ample opportunity to chat with the folks around the office. We chat about our weekends and common interests, as well as misc tech topics that may or may not be relevant to the job. Once a week we actually have a scheduled coffee chat for the whole team.
I couldn’t work at a place that didn’t accept these sorts of interactions as a normal part of work life. No one does eight hours of heads-down work every day, unless they’re actually at work 10+ hour days every day.
It was a detour that I am glad I took. Along the way I encountered so many cool areas of applied maths: control theory, fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, finite element analysis, dispersion modelling, oceanography, the list goes on.
Ironically, these days, I'm still spending most days programming. But I am careful about what I work on.
First, the software is always a tool. People may use it to limit the impact of a flood, to warn each other about fires, or just to plan a fishing trip. I write software with real applications for the physical world, not just some self-serving engagement metric.
Second, I write software with an applied maths component. This is obviously a personal bias, but I like these sorts of problems. There are lots of smart people out there that are worth learning from. I am much happier at the end of the day if I have mastered some new concept in control theory than if I learn some new frontend framework. To each their own.
To summarise, I still write code, but I figured out what applications make me happy and motivated.
Things that are not 'just dev'.
Entrepreneurship is difficult but doable esp if you have the right personality type.
Ultimately you will have to figure out something you can do and either like doing or can tolerate doing.
I never have, usually get bored, etc.
Check out land surveying. Haven't done it but it looks interesting from the outside, good mix of inside research and outside work.
Another reply mentioned engineering. I met a man who had been a site engineer, responsible to make sure construction projects were accomplished according to plan.
When you find the answer we'd love to hear.
Most areas of engineering also depend upon control systems and software. Have you looked at project / site engineering as an option? Depending upon your interests you could train in chemical, mechanical, environmental or electrical engineering area. Then look for field work. In my experience working on large projects gives you the added satisfaction of being able to say you contributed to the creation of specific projects.
Whenever I drive past a power station, sub-station, microwave tower that I worked on, I feel a sense of accomplishment.
I find modern corporate software development tends to take the fun out of it.