It's a much better piece than I expected. Still direct and simple enough, but tackles an important issue and is long enough to give it the treatment it deserves.
I can definitely relate to the change in how identity is understood compared to Shrier's teenage years (or to mine, for that matter). The modern version just feels like a weird exercise in box-collecting. It's bizarre to see how what people get excited in modern fiction is "[Character] has [identity marker X]!" The excitement isn't about the character being awesome, or deep, or relatable. It's about a stupid box.
> The self is not found but made, because meaning is made. Rather than be unearthed like buried treasure, meaning is laboriously created, often by doing hard things. I cringe a bit recalling the person I was in my twenties, because she represented an early stage of an ongoing project that I have modified much in the years since. My twenties were an early draft of a manuscript whose sentences I have revised, pruned, and qualified. Ideally, if I keep forcing myself to do hard things, the later drafts of my eternally incomplete manuscript will be more captivating.
Here, though, she goes wrong a little. Meaning is made is a somewhat iffy choice of words because it implies we can decide that things are meaningful and I think most of us will agree that it doesn't quite work that way. Yet Shrier is right that by doing hard things you will oftentimes create a sense of meaning, but that meaning is found in the process of engaging with the world, not decided by human will.
> The modern version just feels like a weird exercise in box-collecting.
The few teenage women in my family I interact with are obsessed with ticking all right boxes. I get the impression they don't have any idea what they are, but they are desperate to find it, label it, and put it in a box so they can tell their friends. Preferably a trendy box. The anger they have built up around names/labels and which are the right/wrong ones appears deeply unhealthy to me.
It's one thing for career woman to talk about systemic sexism in male dominated professional spheres. It's another thing to hear a 20 year old college freshman with practically no life experience passionately parrot what they've heard about wage disparity, glass ceilings, and other things they have literally zero direct personal experience with. You can't fix things by discussing "problems experienced in theory", you can only have meaningful dialog about fixing things when you can discuss "problems experienced in practice".
I feel it's deeply unhealthy for this new generation, and I fear that we're facing some sort of epidemic of mental illnesses in the next decade or two. In some ways I think we're already there.
I agree that search for identity is a search for meaning. And finding meaning takes a lot of trial and error (the trials being the hard part and the work she refers to). I've changed a lot in my 30 years as an adult, always for the better I think.
I think you’re being too harsh here. Everyone learns by mimicry. Understanding the why always comes after. Even if you know the why before you won’t understand it deeply until you try the thing.
You should reflect on it after you try it on, but coping options of those around you is perfectly natural and normal, but at some point you need to reflect if those attitudes reflect your reality and experience.
Yeah I have a tendency to be harsh/blunt, I'm mainly talking about the troubling trend I'm seeing.
I'm glad everyone is OK to pursue whatever internal dialog and search for meaning they want, in a compassionate world, wherever it leads them.
But it seems that what these kids lack is the ability to introspect and reality-check their experience. The label is all that it's about. Yes I'm talking about young adults. I just don't ever remember being that way.
When I was a kid I'd argue about why communism or anarchy (being a punk) was the way to go. But I wouldn't get so animated about it with other adults, employers, etc.
If this behavior is normal, I guess maybe I expect too much from others.
As I said, I don't like the trend. All I see is anger and unhappiness in youth. It's no wonder they're staying home and getting high.
I don’t think you’re expecting too much ultimately. But too much immediately.
People have try things and fail at them to really learn from them. That takes time. It’s hard to watch people go down the wrong path and know where it will lead, but the role we (others) need to play is to let them try and fail, help teach them to introspect on the experiences they have, and how to path correct afterwards.
I agree about introspection though. I see it as a lack in parenting same as the social skills and connecting with others that the article discusses.
I get the "too much immediately" comment. Solutions take time. As I said, it's the trends that are troubling (fixing things requires the 1st derivative changing direction).
I didn't have any of the adult guidance you talk about in my life. Without that kind of support system, the life stakes you're playing with are very high. And that's the lens I see things through, there are still a lot of kids without good support, and this line of thinking can spell a lifetime of missed opportunities and unhappiness for them.
You're 100% correct that with good guidance the kids will eventually navigate their away from it. Hopefully that level of support is a lot more common than what I personally experienced.
I fully agree with you there. I think we’re going to have very fucked up generations for the next 50+ years as a result. I’m quite worried.
I didn’t either. And it’s taken me into my 40s to correct many of those issues myself. I got lucky in that I had childhood trauma and neglect which forced me to be self sufficient, but many people don’t have that even.
Interesting. Nearly all of the entrepreneurial / keep-trying successful people in my life have a common experience of overcoming childhood trauma. It's a very formative force and leads to an endless drive to improve things. "Bad times breed good men" kind of thing. edit: I wouldn't wish it on anyone!
People who have experienced trauma become hyper vigilant. That skill, combined with a scientific/engineering mindset, gives you deep insight into finding the roots of problems, and the drive to find solutions, and motivation to apply them. I've found its my superpower (when applied correctly).
It takes a lot of introspection. And critical thinking skills. Which is why I guess that's why so many parents bemoan the loss of critical thinking skills. The digital era does not encourage kids to think. It encourages them to ask a the internet for a solution (google / peers on social media). If the solution doesn't work out it's easy not to blame yourself, but rather the "system".
When your drive is to label yourself correctly to fit in, it makes it easy to avoid having to critically think about the "why" behind your choices. Focusing on identity is a new ruling priesthood of sorts: you must not question the teaching, and should get angry at those who don't share your faith.
Yes, the term I think you're looking for here is self-efficacy. "This is my problem, so I need to find a way through or around it, with or without help."
See, I had the opposite problem. I was hyper-vigilant AND hyper-independent, so I failed to develop my skills to connect with others. I have repeatedly reached the limits of my ability to do things independently.
And the first step there was to overcome my childhood trauma (emotional neglect, which left me woefully underdeveloped in my ability to feel or understand emotions, and trust issues) which prevented me from trusting or being able to accept help from others. I could help others but couldn't accept help from others, so I was always overloaded and cut off, so people didn't even know or realize I was struggling.
I'm now trying to learn how to build a network and go beyond what I can accomplish alone. This is a huge challenge in itself.
Same problem. My main problem now isn't the trauma, but the fact I've been very successful on my own without help for so long. Essentially every time I got let down, I doubled down on independence and worked harder. And it kept working.
Now I'm 51 and well established so I don't need anyone to provide anything, probably for the rest of my life. What I never found along the way are the skills to share, let alone enjoy, what I've built with someone else. Deep inside I just see other humans as potential attack vectors.
But I keep trying! The remaining parts should be easier, I hope.
Thanks for the chat. And best of luck to your journey as well.
I got lucky here. My wife was emotionally broken when I met her (her mom died from cancer in HS, and then her family started scapegoating her father), so I could care for her without much reciprocation.
And over the last ten years, as she's healed, I've learned to address my issues one by one to the point where I'm now on neutral ground emotionally. I can share and enjoy what I have with her, but we both lack the skills to go beyond the two of us.
> Deep inside I just see other humans as potential attack vectors.
This is the problem. All human interaction is built on trust, empathy, and authenticity. Without being able to make progress there, no lasting connection can be achieved.
Because trust is so fundamental to being human, I see the entire effort to establish zero-trust anything as a fundamentally misguided and doomed-to-failure activity.
If you want to change your point of view you'd need to overcome trust issues and the easiest way of doing that is by identifying and coming to terms with the source of your trust issues.
Brute forcing it as I did (with my wife) was the emotional version of repeatedly getting full-body road rash over and over again (for both of us).
Glad to hear. Sometimes a little luck is all it takes.
I've read luck is just opportunity + preparedness. I don't have real control of opportunities, but I have agency to work on being prepared to identify and take advantage of them when they come along.
At this phase in life, I've solved all my material problems, so I have plenty of free time, means, and energy that I can dedicate to solving this last big problem.
Right now I'm dealing with the colossal amount of narcissistic selfishness that the average single adult in this country possesses. Attractive single woman at my age appear highly correlated with systemic selfish behavior and using people as a means to an end. Making it even harder is the material success I've found personally, it's like a magnet for every gold digger out there. Hard to develop trust in an environment full of people you shouldn't trust. I am regularly approached by women online looking for a sugar relationship. When did using people become this normalized? At least I've solved that one, I know it's not me any longer!
That said, any advice on finding decent people to even try with?
> At this phase in life, I've solved all my material problems...
That sounds like a signaling problem. If one of the first things you talk about is being wealthy or displaying a lack of concern about spending money, then people who key off will take an interest.
To me, this is all very common sense that I'm sure you've heard before, but I'll share it in case my reasoning helps it resonate better.
Then as you meet people doing these other things, you can ask them out for a date or be friends. As you make friends, you'll have access to more datable people via your social network, which (mostly) removes the problem you're describing since the people are pre-vetted by the type of people you make friends with. (I.e., the traditional way of finding dates via your social network).
The other option is to not talk about money/means/etc. (and avoid spending money during dates above the bare minimum; i.e., splitting the check) until after four or so dates, effectively weeding out those people quickly.
Another thing is to avoid making assumptions about what other people want or who is/isn't datable. People will often artificially limit their options or agency, such as an unwavering belief that "the man should pay," etc.
Since you asked, I appreciated all of it, and all of it resonates. I know most of it. Some of it I actively do, some I've done and need a reminder, some of it is about getting my expectations back in line again.
Yeah totally right about signaling. I'm a heart on my sleeve guy. I need to be reminded that I have to play a game at first, you can't just be yourself. I treat people well first (until they give me a reason not to), but even that is signaling and not working in my favor. Open/generous people just attract users. I actually already hold back a lot (being strangely open here for a change) but clearly it's still not near enough. Gotta keep reminding myself of that.
About not dating: I've just spent 2+ years trying to connect with people without the intention of dating. I've found that most of the people I run into just aren't like me, probably because I'm digging in the wrong places. I live on a lake love to boat in the summer, but the crowd that attracts is just not the same as me. I realized most of them aren't my friends, they're just into having a friend with a boat and free booze. So I'm getting used in a way. So that's a me problem, and a signaling problem in a way. You're spot on about weeding people out fast, probably the #1 thing I've learned these last 2 years, I've cut a lot of these people out. Which stinks because they're fun, and I need people to boat with. So I'm back to trying dating in 2023 and see if I'm any wiser this time. 10 days in and already it's mostly just matches with scammers/escorts and sugar gals.
I get the thing about meeting people just to do things, build a network, etc. Like I said I just must be digging in the wrong places. The social things I do like concerts and boats attract the wrong crowd, the bar crowd; and the intelligent/introvert side of me, well its hard to meet introverts. I'm going to make another effort on Meetup, focusing on groups that cater to introverts like books and board games. That's one thing I haven't tried (been focusing on extroverts as I figured that would be easier). Guess it means I have to boat less this summer, which stinks cause it's one of the things that brings me joy. Choices.
Not talking about money etc, I really don't. But I'm just generous with myself and my time and it doesn't take long before people sniff out there's something different about me, some air of confidence, assumed success. I just don't have the same problems they have and it shows in my demeanor, the way I talk, wisdom compassion whatever. It attracts people that need things. Again, you're right, it's a signaling problem. I guess I just have to play coy or something. I don't know a lot of successful people in my personal life (other than colleagues, but I don't mix business and personal). I come from lower mid class so those are my peeps and I understand them, but at the same time I'm not like them any more. I also don't come from upper middle class, so I don't really fit in there no common upbringing.
Lastly, your point about don't make assumptions. You're absolutely right, and I need to be reminded of this. Take more risks (no risk no reward) instead of assuming. I get it, need to put it into more practice. I need to shake things up.
I'm still upbeat enough to get up and try again. I just feel like every time I put myself out there and try and open up, I learn new lessons on why not to trust people. Like I said, 2 years of trying something new, only to have to cut most of 'em out. Makes me wonder why I keep putting myself out there I guess. Which is why I asked for a new / outside perspective from you in all honesty. I need new things to try I'm running out of ideas.
I'm convinced that some of this is societal. We live in brutal times, people dehumanized, struggling. Can't change that, but I can change what I'm doing...
This description sounds like your point of view is very transactional.
Being open to people very different from you should make friendships with those people more valuable, not less valuable.
I view any person whose day I've improved or learned something from a worthwhile interaction.
This [1] is the best description of networking that I've had and it applies to any conversation or relationship I can think of.
Suppose you approach every conversation as an opportunity to learn something interesting about them as quickly as possible and make their day/life a tiny bit better. In that case, you will enjoy having conversations with people you only meet once or twice. And if you make people feel interesting, they will want to spend more time around you because you make them feel good about themselves, rather than you needing to find reasons to spend time with them.
A note about this approach. You need to equally and authentically share things about yourself, or people will get suspicious about your motives and feel like there's an angle or something.
If you can make someone say, "Oh, I thought it was just me." Then you've made a real connection with someone else. [2]
Regarding transactional point of view, are you suggesting this is a problem? Up until my mid 30's I wasn't this way (religious, turn the other cheek). I have always been the guy that tries hard to make everyone around me a little bit better. I value kindness, empathy, generosity. So much so that it led to enabling systemic bad behavior and high drama. People love talking to me, I'm a good listener, I make them feel interesting (different people are very interesting to me, I used to consider myself a punk). So I've got that down. Problem is I can do that without having to reveal anything of myself, no skin in the game. It's all about hiding in plain sight. Not helping me and my trust situation.
Similar to what you talked about with your wife, there was close to zero meaningful reciprocation in my life, and that led to major problems. I learned I had to start expecting some form of reciprocation from people. I don't think I'm asking for much now (as I said I'm pretty much taken care of for the rest of my life), but I am asking for something. I guess what I'm just asking for in return is having a low drama good time and that my generosity doesn't get taken advantage of? That to me is a good start for building real trust, or am I wrong? So I see learning to expect reciprocity as personal growth on my part, not a problem to overcome. Thoughts?
I do find my friendships valuable, and I sweat their loss. However most of the new ones continue to fail the reciprocity test. For example, I've found the bar/boat crowd to be mostly people that are combinations of liars, cheaters, and alcoholics (and hidden drug use). It's fun at first, and they are all very interesting, but these really aren't the kind of people that I should be building a friendship network from, as the people they've "vetted" aren't any better. So I end up just being the person who takes them out and buys them booze. They call me in the middle of the night when they are drunk and need to be picked up, etc. I don't cut ties quickly enough, and I'm working on cutting ties quicker as you suggested. Are you suggesting I'm seeing this situation all wrong? Are these the people I should be learning to trust and investing in more?
I'm terrible at networking, I've just not needed it. I've just doubled down on independence and hard work and it's always worked out in my career. This is where I got lucky, working for really good people. As they've climbed the ladder they brought me with them. So this is another outside idea that my gut says you're right, I have to give this a try. Not good at it, it's the trust thing, they're all attack vectors. But I'll work on getting better.
As far as "authentically sharing things about myself", most people don't understand where I come from and how I think, so I tend to reach them where they are. I haven't found anyone I can truly be myself around. I mean if you want a female partner in your life you have to find a way to enjoy a certain amount of chick flicks and cooking together. Fewer philosophy discussions, science discussions, technology discussions. It's why I've been focusing on boating so much, I really enjoy the sun/water and it's something that I have in common with a lot of normal people so I figure that increases my odds of building my network. Also I have to be careful around other people who have trauma, most of them haven't learned to manage it, and that's dangerous for someone like me. Like a recovering alcoholic can't be in a relationship with a raging alcoholic, one just brings the other down.
So for me, right now, it's really about learning to say no sooner and take my ball and go home instead of hanging with people that aren't making my life better or helping me build the kind of quality network I think I need.
I don’t have the same interpretation of her words. But she glosses over what she means because it involves introspection and this essay is almost anti-introspection. It isn’t, but the author devotes zero inches to it.
To me meaning is made retrospectively. She’s right about experiences and so are you, you don’t choose most of what you experience, but afterwards you must assign a meaning to those experiences. As a writer Shrier provably takes that for granted (curse of knowledge).
I agree she went too far in her rhetoric, but I still feel it’s an excellent article.
Yeah, that kind of thing happens, like people in retrospect really valuing their time in the military despite getting conscripted and a lot of the experience being on its face awful and full of suffering.
But what I was talking about is more realtime, say you pick up an instrument and keep experimenting with it and what can happen is that it starts to click and feel really good and the possibilities for self-expression or just making nice sounding things really hit you and get you excited to play the following day and so on. A sense of meaningfulness and import then and there. It's the stuff that creates motivation and people are waiting for when they want to start doing something, when they should just start.
Unstructured play is super important. And very devalued in modern society as well, but we've realized it's important, so I think this is on the mend (slowly).
Kids want to explore their world. We've setup so many safe sandboxes and guided activities for them they don't get to explore.
This is why 20 somethings are so stressed about dealing with the real world, and wish it would change to accommodate them. Up till this point, everything else has accommodated them.
This is an excellent article, but in advocating for connectedness in crafting an identity she fails to talk about the role of introspection. Making it seem like she might lump it in with unconditional acceptance.
But my feeling is that she accidentally took it for granted, being a writer.
> she fails to talk about the role of introspection
Someone else in this thread mentioned this, yeah maybe that's what's missing? Kids, being obsessed about having the right labels, are discouraged from attempts to reality-check and risk going up against the narrative of their peers?
It doesn't seem normal to me. Maybe its just a different version of what was always there. I don't remember my youth and peers being this way. We had concerns, strong opinions, and discussions. But not the very public hate and vitriol. These aren't hills to die on at that age.
I don’t think so. This seems new to me. We’ve never had the ability to separate child rearing from a family/community in history.
I feel like we’re decomposing/outsourcing all the life skills that parents used to be responsible for, but we don’t know which ones or pieces are important, so we keep rediscovering skills older generations learned indirectly/intuitively.
We’re starting to realize that the bulk of education isn’t about knowledge. It’s about how to be a person and realizing we don’t know how to reach that explicitly.
We’re in for a rough 50+ years as we figure all this out.
I believe enough in this country and it's people, and that sanity will and does ultimately prevail. It can only get so bad before a critical mass of people vote "enough is enough, time for change".
I do think it will get better. I'm excited for a future where humanity gets to have the internet, and social media, and we know how to not only navigate it, but to leverage it to make the world a better place. Just sad for the pain of the transition, and the fact I probably won't be around anymore to see it!
Except for the voting part. To vote on a problem, you need to know the potential solutions. We barely know the questions to ask regarding what is necessary to teach a child to be a well-formed person. And laws in those cases lead to serious unintended consequences.
Rock bottom is the point where it hurts so bad you realize you don't have the solutions anymore, and now you're willing to try anything. Only then are you open to evaluating outside solutions. When the general public reaches that point, they will be ready to listen to any other solutions being preached. A few election cycles later there should be a "sane-ish" majority consensus on which of the new ideas seems to be working.
As you said, you can't expect too much immediately.
> We should stop telling children that they’re the “experts on their own lives” and repudiate a static model of selfhood as a fait accompli at birth. Sure, some inborn essence is particular to every person, but it’s a spark; it’s not a fire. We could stand to return to the language of forming character and making a life for yourself, while urging teachers to exercise the guidance they’ve been encouraged to forsake.
This resonates. I feel that I was fortunate enough to be raised during a time and in an environment where the adult world was separate, mysterious and alluring from my young perspective. My parents, like many of their peers, had beliefs and values that they held up and lived by. They didn't stoop down to coddle us, and they gave us room to grow. Sure, kids didn't have as much of a voice in such a world - and that wasn't always a good thing. But the polar opposite that we see today just seems absurd.
The mature world was what my young self yearned to be a part of, and it was pretty clear that membership was something to _work_ towards, not to be bestowed.
> I was fortunate enough to be raised during a time and in an environment where the adult world was separate, mysterious and alluring from my young perspective.
> They didn't stoop down to coddle us, and they gave us room to grow.
Parents like this still exist, I know, I was one of them.
The #1 challenge these parents face is that their teachings are being drowned out by the 24/7/365 barrage of information streaming from everywhere to their children's phones and brains. Peer pressure alone is bad enough. What's worse is the direct/efficient line from Political Agenda -> $$$ -> Internet -> My Kids Brain.
Kids have always thought of their parents as out of touch, all their friends agree. When the "trusted" apps and media streams hammer reinforcement of these beliefs as well, it makes it really hard for your child to sort out fact from fiction.
It's incredibly frustrating for the parents that are trying. I'm not sure how we solve this problem for parents at scale.
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[ 0.24 ms ] story [ 85.9 ms ] threadI can definitely relate to the change in how identity is understood compared to Shrier's teenage years (or to mine, for that matter). The modern version just feels like a weird exercise in box-collecting. It's bizarre to see how what people get excited in modern fiction is "[Character] has [identity marker X]!" The excitement isn't about the character being awesome, or deep, or relatable. It's about a stupid box.
> The self is not found but made, because meaning is made. Rather than be unearthed like buried treasure, meaning is laboriously created, often by doing hard things. I cringe a bit recalling the person I was in my twenties, because she represented an early stage of an ongoing project that I have modified much in the years since. My twenties were an early draft of a manuscript whose sentences I have revised, pruned, and qualified. Ideally, if I keep forcing myself to do hard things, the later drafts of my eternally incomplete manuscript will be more captivating.
Here, though, she goes wrong a little. Meaning is made is a somewhat iffy choice of words because it implies we can decide that things are meaningful and I think most of us will agree that it doesn't quite work that way. Yet Shrier is right that by doing hard things you will oftentimes create a sense of meaning, but that meaning is found in the process of engaging with the world, not decided by human will.
The few teenage women in my family I interact with are obsessed with ticking all right boxes. I get the impression they don't have any idea what they are, but they are desperate to find it, label it, and put it in a box so they can tell their friends. Preferably a trendy box. The anger they have built up around names/labels and which are the right/wrong ones appears deeply unhealthy to me.
It's one thing for career woman to talk about systemic sexism in male dominated professional spheres. It's another thing to hear a 20 year old college freshman with practically no life experience passionately parrot what they've heard about wage disparity, glass ceilings, and other things they have literally zero direct personal experience with. You can't fix things by discussing "problems experienced in theory", you can only have meaningful dialog about fixing things when you can discuss "problems experienced in practice".
I feel it's deeply unhealthy for this new generation, and I fear that we're facing some sort of epidemic of mental illnesses in the next decade or two. In some ways I think we're already there.
I agree that search for identity is a search for meaning. And finding meaning takes a lot of trial and error (the trials being the hard part and the work she refers to). I've changed a lot in my 30 years as an adult, always for the better I think.
You should reflect on it after you try it on, but coping options of those around you is perfectly natural and normal, but at some point you need to reflect if those attitudes reflect your reality and experience.
I'm glad everyone is OK to pursue whatever internal dialog and search for meaning they want, in a compassionate world, wherever it leads them.
But it seems that what these kids lack is the ability to introspect and reality-check their experience. The label is all that it's about. Yes I'm talking about young adults. I just don't ever remember being that way.
When I was a kid I'd argue about why communism or anarchy (being a punk) was the way to go. But I wouldn't get so animated about it with other adults, employers, etc.
If this behavior is normal, I guess maybe I expect too much from others.
As I said, I don't like the trend. All I see is anger and unhappiness in youth. It's no wonder they're staying home and getting high.
People have try things and fail at them to really learn from them. That takes time. It’s hard to watch people go down the wrong path and know where it will lead, but the role we (others) need to play is to let them try and fail, help teach them to introspect on the experiences they have, and how to path correct afterwards.
I agree about introspection though. I see it as a lack in parenting same as the social skills and connecting with others that the article discusses.
I didn't have any of the adult guidance you talk about in my life. Without that kind of support system, the life stakes you're playing with are very high. And that's the lens I see things through, there are still a lot of kids without good support, and this line of thinking can spell a lifetime of missed opportunities and unhappiness for them.
You're 100% correct that with good guidance the kids will eventually navigate their away from it. Hopefully that level of support is a lot more common than what I personally experienced.
I didn’t either. And it’s taken me into my 40s to correct many of those issues myself. I got lucky in that I had childhood trauma and neglect which forced me to be self sufficient, but many people don’t have that even.
People who have experienced trauma become hyper vigilant. That skill, combined with a scientific/engineering mindset, gives you deep insight into finding the roots of problems, and the drive to find solutions, and motivation to apply them. I've found its my superpower (when applied correctly).
It takes a lot of introspection. And critical thinking skills. Which is why I guess that's why so many parents bemoan the loss of critical thinking skills. The digital era does not encourage kids to think. It encourages them to ask a the internet for a solution (google / peers on social media). If the solution doesn't work out it's easy not to blame yourself, but rather the "system".
When your drive is to label yourself correctly to fit in, it makes it easy to avoid having to critically think about the "why" behind your choices. Focusing on identity is a new ruling priesthood of sorts: you must not question the teaching, and should get angry at those who don't share your faith.
See, I had the opposite problem. I was hyper-vigilant AND hyper-independent, so I failed to develop my skills to connect with others. I have repeatedly reached the limits of my ability to do things independently.
And the first step there was to overcome my childhood trauma (emotional neglect, which left me woefully underdeveloped in my ability to feel or understand emotions, and trust issues) which prevented me from trusting or being able to accept help from others. I could help others but couldn't accept help from others, so I was always overloaded and cut off, so people didn't even know or realize I was struggling.
I'm now trying to learn how to build a network and go beyond what I can accomplish alone. This is a huge challenge in itself.
Now I'm 51 and well established so I don't need anyone to provide anything, probably for the rest of my life. What I never found along the way are the skills to share, let alone enjoy, what I've built with someone else. Deep inside I just see other humans as potential attack vectors.
But I keep trying! The remaining parts should be easier, I hope.
Thanks for the chat. And best of luck to your journey as well.
And over the last ten years, as she's healed, I've learned to address my issues one by one to the point where I'm now on neutral ground emotionally. I can share and enjoy what I have with her, but we both lack the skills to go beyond the two of us.
> Deep inside I just see other humans as potential attack vectors.
This is the problem. All human interaction is built on trust, empathy, and authenticity. Without being able to make progress there, no lasting connection can be achieved.
Because trust is so fundamental to being human, I see the entire effort to establish zero-trust anything as a fundamentally misguided and doomed-to-failure activity.
If you want to change your point of view you'd need to overcome trust issues and the easiest way of doing that is by identifying and coming to terms with the source of your trust issues.
Brute forcing it as I did (with my wife) was the emotional version of repeatedly getting full-body road rash over and over again (for both of us).
I've read luck is just opportunity + preparedness. I don't have real control of opportunities, but I have agency to work on being prepared to identify and take advantage of them when they come along.
At this phase in life, I've solved all my material problems, so I have plenty of free time, means, and energy that I can dedicate to solving this last big problem.
Right now I'm dealing with the colossal amount of narcissistic selfishness that the average single adult in this country possesses. Attractive single woman at my age appear highly correlated with systemic selfish behavior and using people as a means to an end. Making it even harder is the material success I've found personally, it's like a magnet for every gold digger out there. Hard to develop trust in an environment full of people you shouldn't trust. I am regularly approached by women online looking for a sugar relationship. When did using people become this normalized? At least I've solved that one, I know it's not me any longer!
That said, any advice on finding decent people to even try with?
That sounds like a signaling problem. If one of the first things you talk about is being wealthy or displaying a lack of concern about spending money, then people who key off will take an interest.
To me, this is all very common sense that I'm sure you've heard before, but I'll share it in case my reasoning helps it resonate better.
I would suggest connecting with people without the direct intention of dating. For example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4gWMTDaxKk
Then as you meet people doing these other things, you can ask them out for a date or be friends. As you make friends, you'll have access to more datable people via your social network, which (mostly) removes the problem you're describing since the people are pre-vetted by the type of people you make friends with. (I.e., the traditional way of finding dates via your social network).
The other option is to not talk about money/means/etc. (and avoid spending money during dates above the bare minimum; i.e., splitting the check) until after four or so dates, effectively weeding out those people quickly.
Another thing is to avoid making assumptions about what other people want or who is/isn't datable. People will often artificially limit their options or agency, such as an unwavering belief that "the man should pay," etc.
Yeah totally right about signaling. I'm a heart on my sleeve guy. I need to be reminded that I have to play a game at first, you can't just be yourself. I treat people well first (until they give me a reason not to), but even that is signaling and not working in my favor. Open/generous people just attract users. I actually already hold back a lot (being strangely open here for a change) but clearly it's still not near enough. Gotta keep reminding myself of that.
About not dating: I've just spent 2+ years trying to connect with people without the intention of dating. I've found that most of the people I run into just aren't like me, probably because I'm digging in the wrong places. I live on a lake love to boat in the summer, but the crowd that attracts is just not the same as me. I realized most of them aren't my friends, they're just into having a friend with a boat and free booze. So I'm getting used in a way. So that's a me problem, and a signaling problem in a way. You're spot on about weeding people out fast, probably the #1 thing I've learned these last 2 years, I've cut a lot of these people out. Which stinks because they're fun, and I need people to boat with. So I'm back to trying dating in 2023 and see if I'm any wiser this time. 10 days in and already it's mostly just matches with scammers/escorts and sugar gals.
I get the thing about meeting people just to do things, build a network, etc. Like I said I just must be digging in the wrong places. The social things I do like concerts and boats attract the wrong crowd, the bar crowd; and the intelligent/introvert side of me, well its hard to meet introverts. I'm going to make another effort on Meetup, focusing on groups that cater to introverts like books and board games. That's one thing I haven't tried (been focusing on extroverts as I figured that would be easier). Guess it means I have to boat less this summer, which stinks cause it's one of the things that brings me joy. Choices.
Not talking about money etc, I really don't. But I'm just generous with myself and my time and it doesn't take long before people sniff out there's something different about me, some air of confidence, assumed success. I just don't have the same problems they have and it shows in my demeanor, the way I talk, wisdom compassion whatever. It attracts people that need things. Again, you're right, it's a signaling problem. I guess I just have to play coy or something. I don't know a lot of successful people in my personal life (other than colleagues, but I don't mix business and personal). I come from lower mid class so those are my peeps and I understand them, but at the same time I'm not like them any more. I also don't come from upper middle class, so I don't really fit in there no common upbringing.
Lastly, your point about don't make assumptions. You're absolutely right, and I need to be reminded of this. Take more risks (no risk no reward) instead of assuming. I get it, need to put it into more practice. I need to shake things up.
I'm still upbeat enough to get up and try again. I just feel like every time I put myself out there and try and open up, I learn new lessons on why not to trust people. Like I said, 2 years of trying something new, only to have to cut most of 'em out. Makes me wonder why I keep putting myself out there I guess. Which is why I asked for a new / outside perspective from you in all honesty. I need new things to try I'm running out of ideas.
I'm convinced that some of this is societal. We live in brutal times, people dehumanized, struggling. Can't change that, but I can change what I'm doing...
Being open to people very different from you should make friendships with those people more valuable, not less valuable.
I view any person whose day I've improved or learned something from a worthwhile interaction.
This [1] is the best description of networking that I've had and it applies to any conversation or relationship I can think of.
Suppose you approach every conversation as an opportunity to learn something interesting about them as quickly as possible and make their day/life a tiny bit better. In that case, you will enjoy having conversations with people you only meet once or twice. And if you make people feel interesting, they will want to spend more time around you because you make them feel good about themselves, rather than you needing to find reasons to spend time with them.
A note about this approach. You need to equally and authentically share things about yourself, or people will get suspicious about your motives and feel like there's an angle or something.
If you can make someone say, "Oh, I thought it was just me." Then you've made a real connection with someone else. [2]
[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/andrew_griffiths_the_power_of_mean...
[2] https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_the_power_of_vulnerabi...
Regarding transactional point of view, are you suggesting this is a problem? Up until my mid 30's I wasn't this way (religious, turn the other cheek). I have always been the guy that tries hard to make everyone around me a little bit better. I value kindness, empathy, generosity. So much so that it led to enabling systemic bad behavior and high drama. People love talking to me, I'm a good listener, I make them feel interesting (different people are very interesting to me, I used to consider myself a punk). So I've got that down. Problem is I can do that without having to reveal anything of myself, no skin in the game. It's all about hiding in plain sight. Not helping me and my trust situation.
Similar to what you talked about with your wife, there was close to zero meaningful reciprocation in my life, and that led to major problems. I learned I had to start expecting some form of reciprocation from people. I don't think I'm asking for much now (as I said I'm pretty much taken care of for the rest of my life), but I am asking for something. I guess what I'm just asking for in return is having a low drama good time and that my generosity doesn't get taken advantage of? That to me is a good start for building real trust, or am I wrong? So I see learning to expect reciprocity as personal growth on my part, not a problem to overcome. Thoughts?
I do find my friendships valuable, and I sweat their loss. However most of the new ones continue to fail the reciprocity test. For example, I've found the bar/boat crowd to be mostly people that are combinations of liars, cheaters, and alcoholics (and hidden drug use). It's fun at first, and they are all very interesting, but these really aren't the kind of people that I should be building a friendship network from, as the people they've "vetted" aren't any better. So I end up just being the person who takes them out and buys them booze. They call me in the middle of the night when they are drunk and need to be picked up, etc. I don't cut ties quickly enough, and I'm working on cutting ties quicker as you suggested. Are you suggesting I'm seeing this situation all wrong? Are these the people I should be learning to trust and investing in more?
I'm terrible at networking, I've just not needed it. I've just doubled down on independence and hard work and it's always worked out in my career. This is where I got lucky, working for really good people. As they've climbed the ladder they brought me with them. So this is another outside idea that my gut says you're right, I have to give this a try. Not good at it, it's the trust thing, they're all attack vectors. But I'll work on getting better.
As far as "authentically sharing things about myself", most people don't understand where I come from and how I think, so I tend to reach them where they are. I haven't found anyone I can truly be myself around. I mean if you want a female partner in your life you have to find a way to enjoy a certain amount of chick flicks and cooking together. Fewer philosophy discussions, science discussions, technology discussions. It's why I've been focusing on boating so much, I really enjoy the sun/water and it's something that I have in common with a lot of normal people so I figure that increases my odds of building my network. Also I have to be careful around other people who have trauma, most of them haven't learned to manage it, and that's dangerous for someone like me. Like a recovering alcoholic can't be in a relationship with a raging alcoholic, one just brings the other down.
So for me, right now, it's really about learning to say no sooner and take my ball and go home instead of hanging with people that aren't making my life better or helping me build the kind of quality network I think I need.
Really interested in your feedback on this. ...
To me meaning is made retrospectively. She’s right about experiences and so are you, you don’t choose most of what you experience, but afterwards you must assign a meaning to those experiences. As a writer Shrier provably takes that for granted (curse of knowledge).
I agree she went too far in her rhetoric, but I still feel it’s an excellent article.
But what I was talking about is more realtime, say you pick up an instrument and keep experimenting with it and what can happen is that it starts to click and feel really good and the possibilities for self-expression or just making nice sounding things really hit you and get you excited to play the following day and so on. A sense of meaningfulness and import then and there. It's the stuff that creates motivation and people are waiting for when they want to start doing something, when they should just start.
Unstructured play is super important. And very devalued in modern society as well, but we've realized it's important, so I think this is on the mend (slowly).
Kids want to explore their world. We've setup so many safe sandboxes and guided activities for them they don't get to explore.
This is why 20 somethings are so stressed about dealing with the real world, and wish it would change to accommodate them. Up till this point, everything else has accommodated them.
But American life sanitizes everything until you’re 18 then throws you to the wolves.
But my feeling is that she accidentally took it for granted, being a writer.
Someone else in this thread mentioned this, yeah maybe that's what's missing? Kids, being obsessed about having the right labels, are discouraged from attempts to reality-check and risk going up against the narrative of their peers?
It doesn't seem normal to me. Maybe its just a different version of what was always there. I don't remember my youth and peers being this way. We had concerns, strong opinions, and discussions. But not the very public hate and vitriol. These aren't hills to die on at that age.
I feel like we’re decomposing/outsourcing all the life skills that parents used to be responsible for, but we don’t know which ones or pieces are important, so we keep rediscovering skills older generations learned indirectly/intuitively.
We’re starting to realize that the bulk of education isn’t about knowledge. It’s about how to be a person and realizing we don’t know how to reach that explicitly.
We’re in for a rough 50+ years as we figure all this out.
Totally agree. It bothers me a lot. The only small comfort I take is that I won't be around anymore when the worst of it hits.
Just like we learned “everyone is great“ actually lowers self-esteem last generation. And this generation about the ills of social media.
So I think the next 20 years will be the worst with gradual improvements also occurring.
I do think it will get better. I'm excited for a future where humanity gets to have the internet, and social media, and we know how to not only navigate it, but to leverage it to make the world a better place. Just sad for the pain of the transition, and the fact I probably won't be around anymore to see it!
Except for the voting part. To vote on a problem, you need to know the potential solutions. We barely know the questions to ask regarding what is necessary to teach a child to be a well-formed person. And laws in those cases lead to serious unintended consequences.
As you said, you can't expect too much immediately.
Because old laws are never repealed, they are only added to.
This resonates. I feel that I was fortunate enough to be raised during a time and in an environment where the adult world was separate, mysterious and alluring from my young perspective. My parents, like many of their peers, had beliefs and values that they held up and lived by. They didn't stoop down to coddle us, and they gave us room to grow. Sure, kids didn't have as much of a voice in such a world - and that wasn't always a good thing. But the polar opposite that we see today just seems absurd.
The mature world was what my young self yearned to be a part of, and it was pretty clear that membership was something to _work_ towards, not to be bestowed.
> They didn't stoop down to coddle us, and they gave us room to grow.
Parents like this still exist, I know, I was one of them.
The #1 challenge these parents face is that their teachings are being drowned out by the 24/7/365 barrage of information streaming from everywhere to their children's phones and brains. Peer pressure alone is bad enough. What's worse is the direct/efficient line from Political Agenda -> $$$ -> Internet -> My Kids Brain.
Kids have always thought of their parents as out of touch, all their friends agree. When the "trusted" apps and media streams hammer reinforcement of these beliefs as well, it makes it really hard for your child to sort out fact from fiction.
It's incredibly frustrating for the parents that are trying. I'm not sure how we solve this problem for parents at scale.