Ask HN: Have you made a career move “down” on purpose, and how has it been?
Background: I work as a senior PM in a big tech company. The pay, without being out of line with the market, is more than I ever thought I'd make. I owned my house outright at age 40, I go out to eat whenever I feel like it, I get to travel a few times a year. I'm pretty happy about my life day to day.
But then I still think of my job as challenging and sometimes stressful. I look at some of my lower level engineering peers that are "stuck" in their careers (5+ years at the same level, no management responsibility), and honestly I feel like they have a pretty blissful life. Maybe I'm idealizing, but I feel like they can just think about how to build something, get it built, and move to the next thing. Not have to deal with recruitment, management, strategy, etc. Show up and fix the bugs.
I used to be a SWE and have kept my skills current, so I'm considering a move back and down from senior strategy and product work back to engineering IC work. This would likely cut my pay in half, so I'd have to do away with some luxuries, but I feel I could manage it financially.
Yet I also have a strong instinct against doing this, because it feels like self sabotage according to the standard definitions of a career. I worry about having regrets and endangering my family's financial safety.
Any folks who've gone through this and want to share their advice?
59 comments
[ 5.8 ms ] story [ 116 ms ] threadI’ve been to a colleague’s ‘demotion party’ from team lead to IC in another office - they had no regrets.
Be prepared for employers to be nervous about employing you - some will be worried about you being too big a flight risk because you might still have an open door to senior PM roles. So plan to manage that fear on their side.
With this framing, it can turn your life into a disaster.
Up to that point, I was nodding to every sentence you wrote. But not to this, no. When I demoted myself in my time, which ended very well, I had a different framing (or, a different gut feeling). My instinct was that I'm selling my well-being for much much too low a price and that, this time, there is a greener pasture.
I was noticing the money flow and how I was enabling a business owner, a very concrete physical person, to profit immensely. You can call it envy, I'd say I've learned that I can enter and leave any business transaction as I please.
The career path is just smoke and mirrors.
The ownership shenanigans is just smoke and mirrors. It doesn't matter that the ownership is split into million shares, because in the end of the chain the wealth (from many companies) does converge to an individual. Look through these schemes. As a thought experiment, think about that individual on a hard day, imagine how you've just made "him" 2 million with your sacrifice and you will get 20 grand bonus.
I'm not saying to go to the streets and loot the businesses, I'm saying you need to see your transaction and your options clearly, without distractions. Talk to your family in this framing as well.
If you want to capture that money for yourself you can, but it will be a very hard slog.
My thoughts exactly. Management or enterprise architecture seems so much more stressful and uncomfortable than coding that I would consider doing it for at least 70% raise (and probably would require closer over 100% to really pull the trigger). Whereas, in practice it pays maybe 30% more than coding and, in many companies here in Europe, actually less than coding (managers are perms with meager salaries, coders are contractors with fat daily rates).
If you are not happy then I think it is worth moving "down". Worrying about financial safety is important but what about your mental health?
My vote is to seriously consider the move and try to figure out a way to make it work moving "down".
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33126861
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30204355
My advice would be to think of the reasons why you wanted to move up from SWE into various roles leading to the Senior PM role you have now. Were you interested in those roles to be someone in the room making decisions, thinking you would do a better job than others? Maybe you were attracted to the strategy aspects? Maybe it was coaching people and see them grow? Maybe it was 100% pure cash grab?
Blissfully building something and moving to the next thing is idealizing a software engineer's day to day. There is tech debt and the struggle of trying to convince people in your current role the importance, legacy code, legacy frameworks/methodologies, constantly having to learn the new shiny thing to stay relevant, dealing with many different engineer personalities, constantly being asked to deliver stuff in what is perceived as limited timeline, etc.
I could have continued working at 100%... but what for? I realized I don't need status symbols like expensive clothes or a sports car with vanity plates, and my kids will get their smartphones second-hand, just as I do. We're now living in the countryside with decently sized garden and some animals around the house.
I've escaped the treadmill and it was the best decision of my life.
It might be better to spend some free time cultivating a side project or two where you can exercise your dev skills without endangering your income. Who knows, it might take off and turn into your own company down the road.
Once you give up salary and seniority, though, those are gone with the odds stacked against getting them back.
And there is the cynical (but non-zero) chance that many people will assume you were demoted for poor performance / behavioral issues / insert your own negative perception, instead of a voluntary move.
Tread cautiously, I'd say, don't do aything to endanger your current position and income.
My advice: don’t do it. Look around while you have a job, but stay fully committed to your duties at work (stealing from your employers is still stealing and is wrong).
If you need to, take some vto to clear your mind and relax.
1. I think the biggest challenge in making these decisions is the fear of making the "wrong" move and the fear of "regret". The reality is that there is no one right answer - regardless of what path you take, regret is baked in and guaranteed. The alternate path/s and its possibilities will always go unexplored/unknown. The question is which one are you ok with the consequences, both upside and downside. Which one are you going to regret more in terms of not taking action?
2. You are onto something in terms of money. We forget but it's only one form of exchange albeit one that we easily understand and that's why it dominates our thinking. But there are others not so obvious ones like time, energy, and identity which are of a higher order but don't get as much airtime. Obviously, you can't make decisions in a vacuum given others are dependent on you.
I've written about my experience that might help.
A collection of frameworks to think it through: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/essential-career-change-frame...
Some questions and the framework around money: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/questions-midlife-career-chan...
More questions around mid career dynamics: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/mid-career-mistakes/
Just be advised that a software engineer's job isn't stress free either. Big projects can wreck you both mentally and physically. In some ways, being a PM is a lot easier.
Further, as you get older, becoming an IC has ageism risks, and returning to age appropriate leadership roles maybe hard with the “drop” on your resume.
This fallacy is so common, but so obviously illogical. By definition, "leadership" roles require a larger number of "followers". Corporate structures are inevitably pyramid shaped, with a tiny number of executives at the top and then more middle managers below and still more ICs at the base.
But unless you're in a country with exponential population growth happening, that structure clearly doesn't represent the populace. There are going to be way more older workers than there are spots at the top of the pyramid.
As a society, we really need to embrace reality and stop pretending like the 5% of people in the upper ranks succeeded and the other 95% of people failed, if they don't rise to the top and then stay there for the rest of their career.
One other thing in tech, I feel like there is a feeling that if you don’t have FU money by 40, and are still working in the coding weeds, you actually aren’t any good and are vulnerable when layoffs etc come around.
Financially it was okay (still painful; 20% cut + move to vhcol area), but I underestimated how much it would grate to _not matter_. I had grown accustomed to a certain level of deference and respect that was not available in the new role, and in fact my willingness to move "down" was viewed with some suspicion.
People will (almost) always assume you "couldn't cut it" in the old role (or had a mental health crisis or something), and higher-ranked people in the new job will rightly look at you as a potential threat from below.
Good luck. Moving back to IC can be good for some people, but I agree with the other poster that "self sabotage" is a phrase that suggests this may not be right for you.
The tipping point— when you no longer worry about things like finances, career track, opinions of others.
Either because you resolved those issues in your mind, or uncontrollable events have made your corporate position redundant.
Always a smart play to have a solid “Plan B” at the ready.
Here's my Yes, And...
> ...a move back and down from senior strategy and product work back to engineering IC work
The single best political advice I've ever gotten:
"Make them ask you three times."
(aka Play hard to get, Make them think it's their idea.)
Assuming you intend to stay with the same employer...
If there's an IC role that you desire, do all the things to reposition yourself for that role. So that it's obvious to everyone you're the best person.
When your Boss (or higher) says, "Hey @throw_booored, what do you think of this exciting opportunity building the next generation Acme Wonder Widget?"
"Hmmm, gee Boss, that sure does look cool. I'd love to work on that! Alas, I really love my job. I'm doing important work, with great people, having an impact. And we're so busy hitting some important deadlines. I couldn't possibly abandon them at a time like this. I'm sure you'll find someone..."
Back and forth. Never dismiss the offer. Just demure. Always sound enthusiastic about the idea, grateful for the consideration, and oh so regretful you couldn't possibly take that role at this time.
Around the third time, you say something like "Wow. You've really planted a seed. I can't stop thinking about this. I'd like to say yes. What would a transition look like? Compensation? Responsibilities?" Etc, etc.
I was on parental leave when interviewing, and of course me becoming a dad made me pick this one over the other ones where I'd prolly have stressed a lot, worked extra for bonuses that don't exist where I ended up, etc.
I don't regret it, except when it's time to negociate a raise and I think about the amount I could be earning. Doesn't last long, I can still switch later if I really need the money, I'm still receiving very positive mails from those I declined, they're actively looking for new hires even recently.