An inexpensive standing desk is nice, but I don't think I would be any happier standing continuously than sitting continuously. Unfortunately, rapidly adjustable sit/stand desks are insanely expensive.
How about a high desk that you can stand at, with a stool or drafting chair for when you want to sit? A tall chair seems a lot easier / cheaper than an adjustable desk.
In my experience ergonomic means with a too much bended back shape that will DISTORT(!) your natural spine shape. Unfortunately they use statistic to decide what is the ergonomic "best" shape, the problem is that people backs in the west have gotten less and less straight the same way they are getting more and more overweight.
Instead of buying an expensive chair, in my opinion it is a best investment to buy a good book or take some good posture lessons that teach you how to sit, stand or sleep properly.
Your back could support itself without effort if it is straight.
I was of the similar opinion, but a research[0] suggests that sitting straight is not actually as healthy. I'd like to see a source which would confirm that sitting back causes distortion to spine shape.
That said, I agree with you that an ergonomic chair would make little sense for a standing desk, as one will obviously sit less (only when too tired to stand).
I don't think it's obvious at all. I prefer to sit, but I am by nature a restless individual. A standing desk would allow me to make some of my pacing time productive.
To put it another way: every person may have a different use pattern when given the option of equal comfort at seated and standing heights.
I personally find that I rarely sit down at my desk, except for extremely long coding sessions. Having the ability to easily adjust my stance, wake a walk, flex my knees, and the like makes a huge difference. Your mileage may vary, obviously.
Most tall stools I've seen have something at about the right height to rest your feet on, whether just a brace between the legs of the stool or a ring that looks like it's intended as a footrest.
Even without that, a detached footrest would still be rather easy to find.
"Because then you would be forced to sit with your legs dangling"
Most stools let you adjust the height without problems, so you could put your feet on the floor. Some of them you could even attach to the floor, so you could use it as a support.
You'd probably want a stepstool or applebox anyway when you're standing, just to vary your feet positions. That could be used as a footrest when sitting.
"An inexpensive standing desk is nice, but I don't think I would be any happier standing continuously than sitting continuously."
You don't need to. You could buy a stool and sit down when you need it or want to.
For me, it took 3 months to get the muscles necessary for standing up developed, and 6 to learn a correct posture good for my joints.
Today I use a wall as support for my back while standing while I use the computer attached to another wall with a mechanic arm(vesa tv mount with an imac adapter).
This is by far the best idea I could have, it feels totally different to work standing up.
...I don't think I would be any happier standing continuously than sitting continuously.
I came to the same conclusion after switching to a standing desk for a few months.
Now I'm using a yoga ball and it's amazing. It's immediately intuitive: just sit on it and shift to another comfortable position if you've been in one place too long. My core is even getting stronger from balancing (although it doesn't feel like a workout). I have a 65cm one for desk-height and a 75cm one for counter-height. I highly recommend it.
I find a stool not really a valuable fatigue reducer compared to a real chair. I couldn't handle standing all day, and the stool was better, but not great. I finally bit the bullet and went fully adjustable with a real chair, and it's so worth it.
I found that without being able to easily switch between sitting and standing, standing work stations will probably not work for most people. I bought a geek desk and it solves the problem beautifully, but having two separate desks for sitting and standing is a cheaper solution if you have the room for it (or having a very tall stool).
After trying a non-adjustable standing desk that I built for a period of two weeks, I came to a similar conclusion. It initially felt pretty good, but after a few hours had passed I ended up taking a lot of breaks that I normally wouldn't have, simply because my legs couldn't keep up.
Also, my feet were in some serious pain for the first few days, even with a thick floor mat, and continued to lightly ache afterwards.
It's not quickly adjustable, but with the removal and replacement of some bolts, you can adjust the main desk area from 30" height all the way up to 52". Built into the cost are four additional shelves of various sizes.
My idea was that if I was going to spend close to $200 on it, I wasn't terribly considered about quick adjustments (and I agree with nick_urban that a high stool/chair is perfect if necessary). However, I wanted to be sure that if I needed a non-standing desk in the future, this could be easily altered. I could also easily adjust it to accommodate visiting/alternative users - which is harder with many of the wall-mounted stand-up desks that are out there.
That looks pretty cool, I also built my own adjustable stand-up/sit-down desk, albeit a more minimalist version.
I'll have to draw out the plans like you did before I go touting the benefits of it, but I had quite a fun time designing and building it, as it seems you did.
The basic idea of mine:
The difference between a comfortable standing-desk height and sitting-desk height for me was 15 inches, so the desk surface is 15 inches deep, and can either fold up-and-out to be "Stand-up mode" or down-and-out to be "sit-down mode".
That sounds excellent. I spent a long time thinking about techniques for expedient adjustment, and ended up deciding that I didn't trust my engineering skills (or lack thereof) enough to warrant the additional cost.
I'm excited to see some more about your build, hope you can post details soon.
I just put a bunch of old computer books on my desk, in conjunction with a few Amazon boxes, and that seems to be sufficient. I actually have two desks. A standup desk AND a sitting desk, and I transfer my laptop between the two. This seems to be the best balance of sanity and health for me.
This is a great idea. I've always been more comfortable standing at a kitchen counter or using the adjustable-height computers we (no longer) have behind the genius bar.
A little more expensive, but I made mine by taking an L-shaped IKEA Galant desk with extension and putting cinder blocks underneath the A-style legs. Felt pads are important to keep it from sliding off the blocks, but works great and gives you a TON of desk room :)
I briefly tried an arrangement like this, which has just one surface for both keyboard and monitor. It worked horribly for me, though perhaps I am odd.
It works much better to have the keyboard at a good keyboard height, and monitors at a good monitor height. I've built a couple variations over time, see my 2010 version partway down this page:
Before you trust a few thousand dollars of equipment to this desk...
The brackets there are mounted backwards; the long end should go against the wall. When they rate the brackets to hold 1000 pounds, it's based on a load at the center of the short side. But really the risk comes from the mounting. If you mount a 30-inch-deep hunk of desk on it there is a much higher stress on the mounting points since the long desk acts as a very effective lever. If you lean against the edge of the desk it may well pull the bracket out of the wall--especially if you use typical screws rather than lag bolts to mount it to the wall.
If you are mounting something like this in a corner, as being done here, the whole setup could be strengthened by mounting a ledger board against the right-hand wall to support the entire depth of the desk. Really you should have a support on the front-left corner as well, which can be done either with a dowel or furniture leg (you can get either at a hardware store).
I thought this at first, but if you look at a bracket like the one in the article on Amazon[1], it seems that they are mounted correctly, since amazon describes its depth as 19.5", and a height of 13".
Those brackets are different than what I would call standard shelving brackets[2], which should be mounted with the long side against the wall.
I've never seen a bracket meant to be intentionally mounted long-side-out, but I agree they seem to be advocating it there. You could do it if the loads were light, of course, but with a deep shelf and/or heavy loads it creates a lot of pull-out stress on the screws near the 90-degree bend.
Quick tip : After drilling a wall you can clean the dust with vacuum cleaner and fill the hole ( not fully ) with quick drying plaster/cement and stick wall plug[1] in it. With this way you can be able to mount your stuff on almost every wall and the mounting will be stronger. It is useful if you live in a old apartment ( like most of the appartments in Germany... )
Not for mounting a desk! For things like pictures where the stress is mostly shear (downward force), you can use something as simple as an angled nail and hang five or ten pounds of picture frame on it. Wall plugs, especially the ones that expand behind the wall, do provide better resistance to pulling force. But these desk brackets will have a LOT of pull applied to them because of the leverage of the desk surface.
Some plaster against the ribs of that plug are not enough; it will likely yank out of the wall and may take a chunk of wall with it. In older plaster-and-lath construction, you'll most likely crack/damage the plaster from the flexing caused by the plug pulling against the lath in the wall.
As the original article says, you'll want to hit a stud, and IMO even that (alone) is not enough for this kind of application.
If the old apartments in Germany are anything like those in Belgium, the inside walls are probably plastered brick (or worse - concrete). Wooden houses are a rarity here. Living in old buildings I've never encountered one of these walls built around a wooden frame.
In Norway and Sweden we also have mostly wooden houses. I would imagine it's the same in Finland as well. Probably because we have lots and lots of trees here, compared to continental Europe.
By the way : concrete isn't bad as you think. There are different type of concrete.But... While it's strong and resistant to fire, if you live in somewhere where the earth quakes are common, concrete is a bad choice. Also metal frames in the concrete is problematic, they have to be resistant to the water (galvanized etc.) or in time they will rust and tear apart the concrete.
An idea that just occurred to me while reading this is that shelving racking, such as you see in most shops, would be ideal for this situation. I have some shelves just behind my desk mounted on this type of racking which have steel bars about 3/8" wide and are about 6ft tall screwed into the wall every foot or so. I believe the length of these would counter quite a lot of the bending stress (although thats not really my field) and as a fringe benefit they have mountings which the shelves hook into every 1 1/2" or so, this could even allow the desk to be lowered to a normal seating position with a little work. Also, I think that any failure of this type of racking would be fairly gradual.
I've been using precisely that solution for several months. It's perfect, and I have absolutely no worries about weight, because there are several screws along the length of each bar. My laptop and monitor go on one rack, and my keyboard and mouse are on another, about a foot beneath the first.
At my height, bar tables are perfect standing desks, and bar stools are perfect if you want to sit down without having to think about changing desk height.
Wouldn't it be awkward over long hours though? Specifically wouldn't you want the keyboard near your waist and the monitor closer to your head, as opposed to bending to look at the screen; or having to raise your arms closer to your shoulders?
The keyboard is ~6 inches above my waistline, which feels perfect to me. The screens are the same distance from my head whether I'm standing or sitting.
I keep a barstool by the desk for any periods when I am tired, although interestingly enough, I find that I sit when I'm learning, and stand when I'm producing (I'm a web dev). So exhaustion isn't the primary dictator of whether I'm standing or sitting.
Interesting, thanks. Do you think one could use only one of the two narrow shelves and put a large screen on it? Can it support the weight? That way you could have keyboard and screen at different heights.
I wonder that as well. Product description mentions only table top, but the construction suggests that shelves also can be mounted at different heights.
I have been using this desk for the past year now and it is awesome.
What I dislike about the authors suggested setup is the fixed height. Often, the initial height that you set the desk to will become uncomfortable. As your body adjusts to using a standing desk, you will probably find that you would prefer something a few inches different from your initial setup. That would be a several hour project with something mount to the wall, but only takes about 15 minutes with these desks.
I've got an older (and larger) version of that desk and really like it. I've set it up in standing mode before, but didn't really stick with it.
It's worth checking Craigslist in your area too, there's usually people selling these desks pretty cheap. At least that's been my experience; got mine used for $70.
I went to Ikea and came home with the same desk for my home office.
While the assembled height can be changed, do be aware that the increments are relatively large, like maybe 3 inches. It worked out fine for me, but might not be very comfortable for someone slightly taller / shorter.
I just built some boxes out of plywood and put my existing desk on them. It was still a bit too low (my back was hurting) so I added a 2x4 on each side between the box and the desk leg until my back stopped hurting. Works great and very inexpensive!
For those who still sit 8+ hours a day: Work on the boss or setup a budget for an adjustable stand up desk. Having a fixed height requires that you adjust if you want to add a floor mat, wear different shoes, or want to throw a treadmill down. And sometimes, after standing for hours, you just want to sit down. Spending $800 dollars is justified for anything that is used 8 hours a day.
Seems a good number people like the idea of a motorised adjustable desk, but the price is a deterrent.
I have a GeekDesk, or what near-as-dammit is one, via a UK importer who gets them from Europe and, personally, it's been the best £400-500 [edit: $600-800 USD, give or take] I've spent on hardware, ever, given that I spent most of my waking hours sat/standing/leaning at it. But I appreciate that it's not an easy price point for everyone.
So, question, with a view to a market opportunity for someone: how much would you be willing to pay for a strong, motorised, adjustable-height desk? Reply with a dollar figure, and if someone's already replied with a similar sum, upvote that instead. (Starting a whole poll seems OTT)
The major issue for me is that the GeekDesk succeeds ONLY in the adjustable requirement. I want to be able to have my monitor and keyboards at different heights, and a secondary shelf was important (though not strictly necessary). When I consider paying nearly $1000 USD for a starter kit (GeekDesk large frame), then spec'ing out nearly $400 USD for additional monitor stands and a keyboard tray, it hardly seems worth it.
I agree that it's a market where a motivated individual should be able to make a killing with a well-thought-out kickstarter proj.
A motorized desk is a ridiculous waste of money. Get a draughtsman's chair; architectural offices hace always had standup desks so people can draw and build models.
It has a manual hand crank, so it's a little cheaper, I get a little exercise cranking it up and down (though not much; it's surprisingly easy to do), and I get to feel that I'm not polluting the world with more electronics (I know, ridiculous we you consider what's actually sitting on it...).
It is still pretty expensive, but it's really well (and precisely) made, so I can see that it could be expensive to produce.
I built my own 3-tiered, sit-down or stand-up desk, link to pic below.
Seated, the monitor is the right height for me, so as to keep my head up and neck straight. When I want to switch to standing, I just move the keyboard to the top level. I make the switch once or twice per day. And I can sit cross legged on the lowest platform (I dont like bucket/office chairs).
That was v0.1 of the desk, constructed in a few hours. the As you can see it is not production ready :p
Cool idea. I've done the standup desk thing before at work with a tall chair as a sitting option. I actually ended up using the chair most of the time so I switched back to avoid constantly vaulting up and down, but it was an interesting experiment for about 2 years.
One concern I would have about this particular configuration is the lack of a keyboard tray. Ergonomically, you would want your eyes about level with the top of the monitor or maybe a few inches below the top. At the same time, you want your keyboard to comfortably sit below so that you can keep your elbows at about 105 degrees or so. With the addition of a keyboard tray, and possibly a monitor stand, this can be a really nice long term ergonomic setup.
Found some tips on ergonomics at the link below, and these are inline (no pun intended) with what I have heard from the mandatory ergonomics training at my employer.
I got this from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QA0EHI/ - goes from too-low-to-sit to too-high-for-work (I'm 6' tall), is sturdy enough for a laptop, and has lockable wheels. Best $50 I've spent.
Might not be able to carry your 26" screen if it is too heavy, but it's a damn good way to see how well you fair with an adjustable standing desk. And it also doubles as an over-the-bed desk ...
Helpful suggestions: Attach a long-cord power strip to your mobile table, so that only one power goes out, and that it doesn't kill your non-magsafe-connector when someone kicks the power cable.
Also, use a large binder clip to attach mouse/keyboard/monitor/network cables to the table if you use a laptop and take it with you often.
107 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 185 ms ] threadI think this person has found a heck of an in-between position. It's not $40, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper than a geekdesk. http://blog.melchua.com/2011/07/09/fitting-yourself-a-sit-to...
A top-of-the-line aeron is about $700; the stool version is about $1200.
Do you need an ergonomic chair?
In my experience ergonomic means with a too much bended back shape that will DISTORT(!) your natural spine shape. Unfortunately they use statistic to decide what is the ergonomic "best" shape, the problem is that people backs in the west have gotten less and less straight the same way they are getting more and more overweight.
Instead of buying an expensive chair, in my opinion it is a best investment to buy a good book or take some good posture lessons that teach you how to sit, stand or sleep properly.
Your back could support itself without effort if it is straight.
That said, I agree with you that an ergonomic chair would make little sense for a standing desk, as one will obviously sit less (only when too tired to stand).
[0] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm (2006)
To put it another way: every person may have a different use pattern when given the option of equal comfort at seated and standing heights.
Even without that, a detached footrest would still be rather easy to find.
Most stools let you adjust the height without problems, so you could put your feet on the floor. Some of them you could even attach to the floor, so you could use it as a support.
You don't need to. You could buy a stool and sit down when you need it or want to.
For me, it took 3 months to get the muscles necessary for standing up developed, and 6 to learn a correct posture good for my joints.
Today I use a wall as support for my back while standing while I use the computer attached to another wall with a mechanic arm(vesa tv mount with an imac adapter).
This is by far the best idea I could have, it feels totally different to work standing up.
I came to the same conclusion after switching to a standing desk for a few months.
Now I'm using a yoga ball and it's amazing. It's immediately intuitive: just sit on it and shift to another comfortable position if you've been in one place too long. My core is even getting stronger from balancing (although it doesn't feel like a workout). I have a 65cm one for desk-height and a 75cm one for counter-height. I highly recommend it.
I find a stool not really a valuable fatigue reducer compared to a real chair. I couldn't handle standing all day, and the stool was better, but not great. I finally bit the bullet and went fully adjustable with a real chair, and it's so worth it.
I think I must have been sick the week they taught that. I still have great difficulty doing it (or building anything, working "with my hands").
Co-worker who had a stand-up desk frequently migrated to his in-office couch by afternoon.
Also, my feet were in some serious pain for the first few days, even with a thick floor mat, and continued to lightly ache afterwards.
Anyone thinking about doing something similar may want to read this brief article about some of the potential risks in standing up all the time: http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/13/the-dangers-of-sitting...
It's not quickly adjustable, but with the removal and replacement of some bolts, you can adjust the main desk area from 30" height all the way up to 52". Built into the cost are four additional shelves of various sizes.
My idea was that if I was going to spend close to $200 on it, I wasn't terribly considered about quick adjustments (and I agree with nick_urban that a high stool/chair is perfect if necessary). However, I wanted to be sure that if I needed a non-standing desk in the future, this could be easily altered. I could also easily adjust it to accommodate visiting/alternative users - which is harder with many of the wall-mounted stand-up desks that are out there.
I'll have to draw out the plans like you did before I go touting the benefits of it, but I had quite a fun time designing and building it, as it seems you did.
The basic idea of mine:
The difference between a comfortable standing-desk height and sitting-desk height for me was 15 inches, so the desk surface is 15 inches deep, and can either fold up-and-out to be "Stand-up mode" or down-and-out to be "sit-down mode".
I'm excited to see some more about your build, hope you can post details soon.
It works much better to have the keyboard at a good keyboard height, and monitors at a good monitor height. I've built a couple variations over time, see my 2010 version partway down this page:
http://kylecordes.com/2010/standing-desk
The brackets there are mounted backwards; the long end should go against the wall. When they rate the brackets to hold 1000 pounds, it's based on a load at the center of the short side. But really the risk comes from the mounting. If you mount a 30-inch-deep hunk of desk on it there is a much higher stress on the mounting points since the long desk acts as a very effective lever. If you lean against the edge of the desk it may well pull the bracket out of the wall--especially if you use typical screws rather than lag bolts to mount it to the wall.
If you are mounting something like this in a corner, as being done here, the whole setup could be strengthened by mounting a ledger board against the right-hand wall to support the entire depth of the desk. Really you should have a support on the front-left corner as well, which can be done either with a dowel or furniture leg (you can get either at a hardware store).
Those brackets are different than what I would call standard shelving brackets[2], which should be mounted with the long side against the wall.
[1]:http://www.amazon.com/Black-Steel-Shelf-Bracket-19-1/dp/B001...
[2]:http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/BATTALION-Utility-Shelf-Bra...
[1] : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plug
Some plaster against the ribs of that plug are not enough; it will likely yank out of the wall and may take a chunk of wall with it. In older plaster-and-lath construction, you'll most likely crack/damage the plaster from the flexing caused by the plug pulling against the lath in the wall.
As the original article says, you'll want to hit a stud, and IMO even that (alone) is not enough for this kind of application.
In America most houses are wood, and I don't mean log houses.
And there is no way wall plugs would work in that kind of American wall.
By the way : concrete isn't bad as you think. There are different type of concrete.But... While it's strong and resistant to fire, if you live in somewhere where the earth quakes are common, concrete is a bad choice. Also metal frames in the concrete is problematic, they have to be resistant to the water (galvanized etc.) or in time they will rust and tear apart the concrete.
Similar to what is shown here http://www.richardsonsuk.co.uk/product.aspx?p=46 (no affiliation, just the first similar looking thing I came across on google).
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00115992/
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/60111123/
It's easy to build. It's sturdy, and it looks good.
They consider it a bar table, but it works perfectly as a standing desk.
I keep a barstool by the desk for any periods when I am tired, although interestingly enough, I find that I sit when I'm learning, and stand when I'm producing (I'm a web dev). So exhaustion isn't the primary dictator of whether I'm standing or sitting.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40111124/
If not, I'm sure you can hack it to enable it to do so.
For myself I have a larger discontinued model called the Jerker. It supports large things just fine.
What I dislike about the authors suggested setup is the fixed height. Often, the initial height that you set the desk to will become uncomfortable. As your body adjusts to using a standing desk, you will probably find that you would prefer something a few inches different from your initial setup. That would be a several hour project with something mount to the wall, but only takes about 15 minutes with these desks.
It's worth checking Craigslist in your area too, there's usually people selling these desks pretty cheap. At least that's been my experience; got mine used for $70.
EDIT: The Jerker (http://i.imgur.com/TyieC.jpg) is what I actually have (thanks chaostheory).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/symmetricalism/5488994391/
they really are great desks and are very configurable.
While the assembled height can be changed, do be aware that the increments are relatively large, like maybe 3 inches. It worked out fine for me, but might not be very comfortable for someone slightly taller / shorter.
I have a GeekDesk, or what near-as-dammit is one, via a UK importer who gets them from Europe and, personally, it's been the best £400-500 [edit: $600-800 USD, give or take] I've spent on hardware, ever, given that I spent most of my waking hours sat/standing/leaning at it. But I appreciate that it's not an easy price point for everyone.
So, question, with a view to a market opportunity for someone: how much would you be willing to pay for a strong, motorised, adjustable-height desk? Reply with a dollar figure, and if someone's already replied with a similar sum, upvote that instead. (Starting a whole poll seems OTT)
The major issue for me is that the GeekDesk succeeds ONLY in the adjustable requirement. I want to be able to have my monitor and keyboards at different heights, and a secondary shelf was important (though not strictly necessary). When I consider paying nearly $1000 USD for a starter kit (GeekDesk large frame), then spec'ing out nearly $400 USD for additional monitor stands and a keyboard tray, it hardly seems worth it.
I agree that it's a market where a motivated individual should be able to make a killing with a well-thought-out kickstarter proj.
http://www.ergo2work.co.uk/product/en/ergodesk-basic-manual-...
It has a manual hand crank, so it's a little cheaper, I get a little exercise cranking it up and down (though not much; it's surprisingly easy to do), and I get to feel that I'm not polluting the world with more electronics (I know, ridiculous we you consider what's actually sitting on it...).
It is still pretty expensive, but it's really well (and precisely) made, so I can see that it could be expensive to produce.
Would you just search Craigslist for the old man? Sounds tricky.
Seated, the monitor is the right height for me, so as to keep my head up and neck straight. When I want to switch to standing, I just move the keyboard to the top level. I make the switch once or twice per day. And I can sit cross legged on the lowest platform (I dont like bucket/office chairs).
That was v0.1 of the desk, constructed in a few hours. the As you can see it is not production ready :p
http://blog.angelinegragasin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/...
One concern I would have about this particular configuration is the lack of a keyboard tray. Ergonomically, you would want your eyes about level with the top of the monitor or maybe a few inches below the top. At the same time, you want your keyboard to comfortably sit below so that you can keep your elbows at about 105 degrees or so. With the addition of a keyboard tray, and possibly a monitor stand, this can be a really nice long term ergonomic setup.
Found some tips on ergonomics at the link below, and these are inline (no pun intended) with what I have heard from the mandatory ergonomics training at my employer.
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art21940.asp
Might not be able to carry your 26" screen if it is too heavy, but it's a damn good way to see how well you fair with an adjustable standing desk. And it also doubles as an over-the-bed desk ...
Helpful suggestions: Attach a long-cord power strip to your mobile table, so that only one power goes out, and that it doesn't kill your non-magsafe-connector when someone kicks the power cable.
Also, use a large binder clip to attach mouse/keyboard/monitor/network cables to the table if you use a laptop and take it with you often.
https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/treadmill-desk-part-6-...