Ask HN: Airbnb requires my credit-card transaction history?

68 points by zug_zug ↗ HN
https://twitter.com/planmoretrips/status/1603738966271860736

I ran into this myself (literally could not check out with my credit card without agreeing to those terms) and opted to paypal instead. Anybody at airbnb/plaid know if this is any less awful than it seems?

87 comments

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airbnb seems to find new ways to burn any goodwill they had.

I've heard about more friends getting scammed and having their reviews deleted, and dragged out refunds if they happen at all.

Almost all of them ended up with chargebacks on their credit card, and then airbnb bans them.

I wonder if they're looking for a history of that, and just hoping people don't care about what info they're giving away.

My mum, as a long time host, has a similar experience with scumbag guests occasionally. So, I guess Airbnb is doing this to protect both hosts and guests
Cynical me thinks Airbnb is doing this to protect Airbnb.
In all fairness, your probably right. It's likely they're doing this to cut down on support demands regarding complaints. There's probably going to be a downsizing of their support teams soon.
I booked a place and it turned out to be unlivable due to noise, I left the next morning, requested refund for remaining week+, raised a ticket, spent time on the phone eventually Airbnb refunded their fees but maybe because I booked it in advance somehow it was up to the guy to refund and he declined. At a few hundred USD it was the most expensive night in my life (I can't splurge). Never saw the guy in person either, of course.

If you have a cute listing description in a major city and a couple of friends who wrote you positive reviews you can get a steady airbnb income mostly without people properly staying in your place with tricks like this

(In this case some reviews specifically claimed superb soundproofing but it turned out to be an apartment subdivided into rooms with cardboard-like walls)

I stopped using Airbnb after a couple of such incidents. I actually don't miss it at all so far. It's mostly been a source of bad travel experience, and 99% of places that are good also publish listings elsewhere

I've had similar experiences with AirBnb. I booked a place in a building that is residential on one side, commercial on the other. The place, as it turns out, was on the commercial side in a room attached to a travel agency. With a sex shop right outside the door.

When I got to the place - with my daughter - we passed a man defecating on the sidewalk outside the building. And inside the building, right next to the entrance of our "travel agency room" was a prostitute in an indiscreet position with a client. And I'm with my 15 year old daughter.

We left and got a nicer place. Airbnb refused the refund. And they haven't had my business since.

I feel like they have internal guidelines on what is a refundable complain, and unless it is proved with a photo of the interior that shows something broken or not per description then it's fair game to unscrupulous host.

(If you don't wish to engage and negotiate with the host, document everything and spend time with support, the host gets to pocket the money. If the host ensured the place visually matches the photos even if it's awful in some way, smell, noise, etc., the host gets to pocket the money. And so on)

Airbnb does this because fraudsters use it to cash out large amounts of money from stolen credit cards, they’re a lucrative target.
You open a fake listing and then rent it out with fake CC ? Wouldn't this be handled on the payout/property owner side ?

Sounds more like wanting to seeing if people do chargebacks ?

You open an expensive listing and book it yourself to "wash" the money.
That doesn't seem like Airbnb's problem though. I wouldn't think that's the only reason unless the government is making them do it. That's entirely possible, but at the same time, the information they're asking for is a gold mine for marketers.
Money laundering laws make it Airbnb’s problem though.
More importantly, Airbnb loses a shitload of money here.
I'm not convinced that money laundering laws mean someone with a legitimate business has to do intrusive data collection to police their customers. If they marketed Airbnb as a money laundering solution, that'd be different.

I did say it's possible the government is pressuring them do it, but that's something I suspect Airbnb could fight if they were motivated to do so.

(Chargebacks do make it their problem though, so my premise was false anyway.)

> I'm not convinced that money laundering laws mean someone with a legitimate business has to do intrusive data collection to police their customers. If they marketed Airbnb as a money laundering solution, that'd be different.

Know Your Customer laws are the reason given by AirBnB themselves: https://www.airbnb.ie/help/article/3004

That refers to simple KYC "such as your legal name, date of birth, or government ID."

OP complained about "your bank account numbers, entire transaction history, financial data, and contact info." Normal KYC does not include all this.

Of course it's Airbnb's problem. They pay the fraudsters host account via bank transfer and then get a credit card chargeback, losing whatever money they paid the host.
Ah, right, sorry. I was thinking about money laundering in general, but chargebacks would definitely be a problem.
> Wouldn't this be handled on the payout/property owner side ?

Property owners get paid with bank transfers, so clawing back the money from fraudsters is essentially impossible.

Couldn't they set up short duration escrow accounts of sorts, until everything's in the clear?
Chargeback periods can be super long, they'd have to keep the money in escrow for months. It's not impossible, but would severely discourage new hosts from signing up to the service.
As a customer, that's not my problem.
Sure is, fraud forces merchants to add these extra hoops for you to jump through in order for them to remain profitable.

If AirBnB didn't do this, they would simply cease to exist at some point.

Evety other merchant manages to deal with this without this level of invasiveness though.
Such as what other merchant? You're probably thinking of businesses which are not really comparable.
Hotels don't request this
Hotels don't have to because there's no route to pay with a stolen credit card and then get that money into an account you use.

I could set up a fake AirBnB, steal credit cards, book my own fake AirBnB, and then run off with the cash. There's no equivalent workflow for hotels.

It's mostly a problem for "platform" style apps that have both ways to send money and ways to withdraw money. Turo and Ebay are probably better comparisons here, and may have similar issues.

Ebay has it easier because they can treat their sellers way worse than Airbnb can treat their hosts.

Paypal is kind of universally reviled over their security measures.

Literally no other merchant does this. That includes VRBO which is pretty directly comparable.
VRBO isn't directly comparable because it doesn't compete with AirBnB for hosts. Nobody lists only on VRBO, unless they've been banned from AirBnB.

VRBO doesn't do this, and has way harsher payout policies for new hosts than AirBnB. VRBO can do this because VRBO is not trying to attract new hosts (new to hosting, not new to VRBO) in the first place.

AirBnB can't do the VRBO thing and escrow payments to new hosts for 30 days, that would be super discouraging for newcomers trying to list their flat for the first time.

I don't think you understand what the word "comparable" means.
This is the same credit card I've been using on their site for several years. This is no excuse.

Unless you have proof they aren't selling that data, I'd assume (based on my experience at a major location-sharing company and a major credit-reports website) that they are absolutely selling that data.

Use hotels. Airbnb has been comparable to hotels in the area, without extra services, no loyalty points, no daily cleaning (in many cases) and no added value at all.

At least before you'd pay significantly less than an hotel. Now hotels are more convenient especially if you're member and you get it with a discount

Hilton triple charged me. Months later I’m still fighting it
I had exactly zero problems with hotels and a number of problems with private hosts. Now I don't even consider the latter. When I'm on a trip, whether it's a business one or with my family, I want consistent service and predictability. Maybe I'm just to old to deal with that crap.
> Maybe I'm just to old to deal with that crap.

Same I don't want to think if my flight delays for a few hours whether the host can give me the key, where we should meet etc. I just want to get in the room as soon as possible knowing that if I'm in a new place I can always count on the hotel staff for any help.

Definitely hotels win on many levels compared to private hosts

Maybe it's me getting old, but most of the hotels I've been to, slightly higher end ones, had really weird bathrooms. From no doors, to imperfectly closing doors on purpose ( think rough barn door ) , to saloon doors (???). Who designs these and where are they going with it ? Can't one enjoy some privacy in the bathroom anymore ?
Then you haven't been in the most fancy hotels where the feature is having glass bathroom with a view from the bedroom bed. Seriously.
My only conclusion that wealthy Europeans enjoy watching their intimate friends and family eliminate personal waste. I have never encountered these odd bathrooms in North America or in less expensive accommodation anywhere.
It should be basically a human right to have a nice, well sealing, lockable door for a bathroom and a good fan and/or window.
None of the hotels I went to ever charged me more than once.

I've been in many both for work and for pleasure in 4 continents

If you made one honest effort to resolve it with them, do a chargeback on your card. I’ve had two hotels do this (over many decades) and my bank was very quick to approve my chargeback.
If they're anything like airlines, you'll never be able to stay at any of their 6,000+ hotels after making a chargeback. That may or may not be an issue for the OP (although maybe not as the company has already overcharged them).
Would you want to stay there again if they triple charge you and do not want to fix it? That's called theft. Would you want to work with a business that is nonchalant about stealing from you? I bet the hotel would not be so nonchalant about you stealing 2x of the cost of the hotel room from them.

I made the mistake of not using a credit card to pay for an airline ticket. They canceled my flight at the last moment with no reason given, did not want to provide alternative transportation, and only offered to refund 80 euros of "credits" tied to that airline (far less than what I paid for the flight!). I never want to use that airline again, and would happily chargeback.

I would definitely try to avoid using a hotel chain that overcharged me, but the unfortunately reality is that the chains (like airlines) are so big that you do meaningfully reduce your options in the future.
> I never want to use that airline again, and would happily chargeback.

The problem with that idea is that sometimes Airline X is the only game in town for certain destinations. I have an Airline X that screwed my then girlfriend now fiancee and I over rather badly last year, forcing us to fly a day later than planned, with knock on impacts on our plans/schedule.

Airline X are a bunch of unregenerate, dishonest scoundrels who I'd cheerfully feed into a running woodchipper but the strongest position I can realistically take is that, where a viable alternative to Airline X is available, even if it's a bit more inconvenient or expensive, I'll use that alternative.

However, sometimes a combination of scheduling, availability, outbound airport, destination, and other constraints make it either literally impossible or practically impossible to avoid using Airline X.

So a few months after the unpleasant occurrence last year I had to use them once again for a one way flight because they were the only viable option. It pained me to hand over the money, and it pained me even more to watch them single out somebody in the queue for reasons that are obscure to me and make their life extremely unpleasant even though, apparently, they'd paid for the bag they were trying to bring aboard.

Scumbags. But I still needed to get home. So I can't afford to get barred by them.

I also had a air line charge my bank multiple times at ticket counter. Lady was having trouble with something and just kept charging them canceling. Many many times.

Showed up in foreign country with negative balance before I realized their was a problem.

Airline said charges would fall in a week or so. Which was true. Spent hours on phone with airline. They did not care at all. But I was stuck with wife and a new baby and no funds for a week.

I now have multi bank accounts credit cards and cash for traveling.

We all have anecdotes :-)
How?

Did you book through multiple methods and fail to cancel one?

Did they run three charges each matching the printed invoice?

It's unusual to come up with scenarios that would require much "fighting" to resolve.

The only overcharges I've ever incurred across thousands of hotel nights were my own fault for excessive cleverness*, and easily sorted.

* For example, playing off Hotwire's blind pricing with after hours front desk pricing.

This is only true if you're traveling solo or with one other person to city centers. Airbnb is far superior for:

* Traveling with young children * Traveling to visit family in rural areas * Traveling for pleasure in rural areas

For example, I can get a house on Airbnb near my extended family in a rural area that has 2-3 bedrooms for a similar price as the 2 rooms that would be required when traveling with my immediate family.

Cross-shopping hotels is useful in some situations, but don't pretend Airbnb has no advantages.

How can you compare two things when one of them is not available?

It's implied that both Airbnb and hotel must be available to make a comparison. When that's the case most of the time hotels are better.

That being said, if there are no hotels available of course any other alternative would be better.

If you've a large family with multiple children yes, Airbnb may be better

> How can you compare two things when one of them is not available?

The example I gave is explicitly where they are both available. A hotel near my extended family, or a detached house from Airbnb that has bedrooms for my kids and a full kitchen for a similar price as two rooms in that hotel.

> most of the time hotels are better

That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

> a large family with multiple children

I'd posit it's better with any amount of children, especially if they're under, say, 5 years old.

My experience travelling with kids heavily favours hotels, TBH. Especially brands hotels. They're generally:

  - secure,
  - clean,
  - *fire-safe*,
  - always have my rooms ready,
  - have working WiFi,
  - don't have things like unsecured bottles of bleach in bathrooms,
  - don't have stray dogs hanging around,
  - don't have inappropriate art, books, TV-stations, etc.
Admittedly I'm less price-sensitive than some, but I also don't find hotels massively more expensive.
I mean, even if cheaper you will always be giving away certain securities and perks that you have in a hotel.

Not even considering the amount of horror stories I usually hear about related to Airbnbs.

Don't forget about long term stays
> * Traveling with young children

You have never gotten screwed by a host.

If you are, going with young kids sucks beyond imagination.

Hotels are a lot more reliable in my experience. Or, in Europe at least, Booking.com.

Don't use booking.com they use the same predatory tactics and fuck over both guests and hotels wherever they get a foothold.
I know, but I've compared them with Airbnb and in my experience (tens of stays across the world), Booking.com is better.

As long as you're careful about the reviews and double check all charges to not get overcharged, they're actually good at protecting you as a guest against the property afterwards.

Yes, in an ideal world you'd get accommodation directly from the provider but that is a TON of work and it adds extra risks.

> As long as you're careful about the reviews and double check all charges to not get overcharged, they're actually good at protecting you as a guest against the property afterwards.

This is how it always starts.

Booking.com was founded in 1996.
> no daily cleaning

I personally prefer it if nobody enters my room during my stay, even if it means no clean towels etc.

put "no disturb" in your hotel room and confirm it to the reception. They'd not enter
I prefer if I don't have to tell the reception to not enter my room. In my opinion, this should be opt-in, rather than opt-out.
I also prefer to have people reading my mind but communication helps. Plus most of the time switching a button to "no disturb" would do, I don't know what are you ranting about.

So what if the Airbnb does daily cleaning? You don't talk to the host to ask to remove the service?

> In my opinion, this should be opt-in, rather than opt-out.

I'm pretty sure most people prefer to come back with a room cleaned up, if you really don't like it just communicate it, write in the form when you book or whatever is not that hard.

It seems you are having trouble putting yourself in my shoes.

I don't want to communicate to the reception to "not enter my room" because it feels rather awkward to say. The whole thing is just bad UX in my view. Of course your view may be different (or even most people's views), but that was not the point of my comment, of course.

You don’t… have you stayed at a hotel before? You just put the do not disturb sign up that hangs off your door handle on the outside of your door…
Default humans consider a tidied fresh room part of the package.

You not wanting it makes you weird. So it's on you to move the little "Do Not Disturb" thing from inside door knob to outside.

Telling reception won't work. Reception can't be bothered to communicate to house keeping who can't be bothered to figure out which house keeper will hit up your room and give them special instructions to not do their training.

> So it's on you to move the little "Do Not Disturb" thing from inside door knob to outside.

What if I wanted to leave my room and still leave my stuff in there without being moved/touched by hotel personel? A sign that says "do not disturb" makes no sense in that case.

It literally makes perfect sense. Do not disturb (me, my room, my stuff).
Only if "do not disturb" meant "do not enter", which is what I want the sign to mean.
If you're really this anal about the verbiage, Amazon will sell you a solution:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09GDBLYHM/

For most normal people, "Do not disturb" and "Do not enter" on a door sign mean the same thing.

You ever been to an hotel before?
Yes, many times and I generally hate the experience, even in the more expensive ones.
(comment deleted)
What? It makes perfect sense.

  - Do not disturb : me the person in the room.
  - Do not disturb : the room and things within it.
I've travelled -extensively- for my job. Usually 6 days at a time. I dislike daily housekeeping, so I just put the little DND sign on the door and from countless hotels have never had room service enter when they shouldn't have.
Most hotels don't have a kitchen tho. Killer difference if you like making your own food.
There are hotels that do have it. They're called residence
Or aparthotels, at least in Europe.
Also, to the points you've been making, chambre d'hotes on Booking compare favorably to AirBnB, often being standalone, studios or small dwellings, with kitchenettes.

https://ilovewalkinginfrance.com/what-is-a-chambre-dhote/

Also, a third option, options on VRBO compare favorably to AirBnB in price for quality and courtesy. I suspect VRBO is less appealing to the short term rental slumlords for some reason (less scalable? less volume of travelers?), but I haven't looked into it.

I would never use an airbnb for e.g. a city trip, but booking whole cottages in the country through airbnb has always been great for me. Prices are usually totally reasonable as well.
I got a bodily lichen from an airbnb. Stayed in hotels great and small and never had that.
Maybe they are trying to combat money laundering, if they are it's a very severe case of "You are doing it wrong!" syndrome
Can you explain how my cc transactions history can help them to combat money laundering?
Maybe you wouldn’t have access to the history of a stolen credit card or something?
It can't, in such case it's all security theatre