I think Hacker News should stand with reddit to go dark in support of SOPA. SOPA seems very important for the future of HN and startups associated with ycombinator.
I think Paul Graham and the Admins of Reddit should go around Silicon Valley and ask to be paid to take HN and Reddit down for the last three weeks of every quarter.
Absolutely yes. Sure, most Hacker News readers know about SOPA but how many of those have actively opposed that bill yet? Raising awareness can't be bad, especially as this probably is the last opportunity to effectively take a stand in this matter.
Everyone is going to say how this is preaching to the choir. But I think it's good if it goes black so the largest news media has even more of a story. It's one thing if just Reddit goes black, that will be a big news story. But it's another thing if many sites on the internet go black.
Come to think of it, I may do this with my website as well. It's no hacker news or Reddit, but it's a good day to do it.
According to that logic, it wouldn't matter either if Twitter, Google Apps, Blackberry Messenger, iCloud+Siri, and Dropbox were to shut down for the day...
Kind of a bad comparison - BBM messenger being down WAS a big news story, twitter & google apps aren't down all day multiple times a year and while I'm not sure about the reliability of siri or dropbox I'm pretty sure neither of them being offline would be a "huge news story", unless your idea of a huge news story is one that's covered by betabeat
1) The more sites decide to shut down on the 18th, the easier it becomes for major websites like Google, Twitter, and Facebook to join. It also increases the chances that this is going to be covered by the mainstream media.
2) Perhaps a blackout will give some HNers the final push (and time) to make some phone calls to their representatives.
3) It can serve as a demonstration of what the web will be like if SOPA kicks in. Many HNers think that SOPA is a bad idea, a blackout will make us feel it as well.
One of the proposals I saw was not a complete blackout but for a interstitial notice to be inserted for 30 seconds (that can't be cancelled). I prefer such a proposal because if you need to look up critical info, you still can.
see 1) of grand-parent. And remember there are creative ways to do a blackout. Darken the page, map or Google Doodle. Something to raise awareness, and increase coverage. No need to pull the DNS or serve a blank black page
I think they can and should, but I think the IPv6 Day comparison is a bad one. It was a pretty small portion of users with broken IPv6 configurations/networks who were expected to be significantly inconvenienced, not the entire userbase.
I think not allowing SOPA and PIPA to pass, by itself defines neutrality. They just want the Internet the remain like it's always been - unaffected by politics.
It's not even a case of politics for these companies. They need to avoid regulation to survive.
The most important asset these companies have are highly skilled and sought after researchers. How appealing will Google be to work for if the projects they work on are designed to:
* prevent access to information that researchers require for their studies
* stall or prevent innovation
* favour established and inflexible industries over startups
* increase the amount of bureaucracy everyone has to deal with
* force problems into hiding rather than providing real solutions
>> 2) Perhaps a blackout will give some HNers the final push (and time) to make some phone calls to their representatives.
I think far more effective than a complete blackout would be requiring HNers contact their representatives before they can access HN content. Not sure how best to implement, but a email form that grants a token upon completion should be feasible (you'd need to decide how to handle non-US based IPs).
I have my doubts regarding the effectiveness of form emails on congresspeople, but I imagine those HNers who were going to call or write a more personal letter still will, with the added benefit of massive form emails from those less motivated to do so otherwise.
Ironically, the reason this won't work is the same reason SOPA won't: proxies. HN is one of the largest gatherings of hackers anywhere; give us a break.
That's in addition to the fact that it's consensus that emails aren't worth a damn here.
And also the fact that it would take significant wasted effort to implement.
If PG did something like this, I'd lose all respect.
This is exactly what HN should not do. Making a statement by having the site down for a day is one thing (although I'm also opposed to that, and I voted no in the poll), but actively forcing your users to help some cause even though they may have completely different opinion is something else entirely. I, for one, wouldn't want to participate on such a website. HN should support free thinking, not suppress it. I, as well as probably 95% of people here, am against SOPA. But if, for some reason, some of the HN users are pro SOPA, we should respect the fact that they have a different opinion on the matter and not force them to accept our views, even if we strongly disagree with them.
If people want to write to their congressperson, they should do that of their own accord, not because they're being pushed into doing that to access HN content.
For most viewers, just showing a notice explaining SOPA will be too abstract. Shutting down your site or service, while putting up a notice, has a higher chance of bringing the point home.
In case it wasn't clear from my previous post: we're in agreement. Show, by taking content and services down. Tell, by putting up an explanation of SOPA and what folks can do to stop it.
Perhaps on that day, HN blacks out all normal content and instead just features a list of all the sites that have gone black in protest? Could let users submit URLs to be added to the list.
Agree with that. Besides featuring the list of sites gone black in protest, HN could also display pointers to effects of SOPA (for non-regular HN visitors), contact info for Congress representatives.
The only reason I would say "NO" is because I'll miss HN for the day. That being said, it's the right thing to do. There needs to be solidarity shown throughout all web companies. It's the only way to win.
Between the "preaching to the choir" and "solidarity" arguments, I basically come out even. But I think HN, being fairly low-profile to mainstreamers and very much full of our SOPA-fearing choir, could serve as the place that we can rely on to continue having an intelligent conversation w/r/t SOPA while everything else is blacked out.
I've seen a lot of people argue that sites like Hacker News shouldn't engage in a protest like this on the grounds that most of its audience probably already supports the protest's cause. I think this is a fundamentally flawed view about the nature of protesting.
It is without question that the most effective protests are those that have direct impacts on the opposition and its supporters, but protesting is bigger than that. It is about trying to be heard just as much as it is about being heard. It is about speaking your mind and standing behind things you believe in even when your protest may fall on deaf ears.
For that reason, the overwhelming amount of people within the Hacker News community that oppose SOPA is the perfect reason TO join in the protest.
I would miss Hacker News for the day, but I would take great pride in being a part of a community that stands up for what it believes in.
It's a symbolic gesture. I believe this leads to a fundamental question of whether it's essential to the kind of political movement we represent.
So for instance democrats depend on notion of symbolic representation to ground their concept of political representation. Without the former, the latter becomes vacuous.
"What kind of advantage does it give us?" seems to be the question. Perhaps it's a moral boost? In the political game, it technically says nothing. In perhaps our own schema of doing things, it technically says nothing. But the idea that people use these tools and can intentionally limit themselves (like with Freedom, the app that locks yr Internet connection) to represent freedom.
Something to consider - if HN doesn't go dark it may become a refugee camp for a good chunk of bored reddit users (c. 70m daily pageviews), which could lead to a radical change in HN's userbase.
My account is plenty old, and HN is most certainly seeing a lot more reddit-like posts. Honestly I think the downturn started about the time we lost the ability to see comment points in threads.
I think dropping the comment points was a reaction to the downturn.
On the other hand - publicity gained by going dark along with reddit would raise the amount of people who were aware of HN and could cause more people to come here.
Either way, I don't think it's that big of a concern.
I think the effect of people being aware of HN would be quite different from that of HN being available whilst reddit wasn't. Essentially HN is not as 'good' at doing what reddit does (because it's not meant to), so increased awareness isn't likely to shift people from reddit. Take away reddit and things change. It will be interesting to see the effect on the web without reddit for a day. With no serious Digg these days, HN would be high on the list of alternatives (even though it is not aimed as such), and there will no doubt be a lot of SOPA posting that day.
I love how there's an unwritten rule to never talk about HN on Reddit. I never even saw it mentioned, and myself try to avoid mentioning it while I see talks about Reddit and proof that a lot of HNers are former redditors almost daily on this site.
I like the solidarity angle. I think that it would be great if there was information about how HNers could use their voice to affect change. Similar to how americancensorship.org gives visitors instructions on how to do something about it.
No because anyone who already reads HN already knows SOPA. The only thing that will be effective is if sites that normal non-tech people visit go dark.
Agreed. I'm all for raising awareness, but many of the articles surfacing here over the past few weeks have been SOPA related and taking down the whole site to put up one message may actually reduce the amount of SOPA/PIPA-related information people are reading.
Not about the other anti-Internet attempts. I hope that the Internet Freedom message is displayed broadly alongside support for the SOPA protest movement.
Personally, I don't think the "eyes of history" will care much what whether or not HN went dark for the purpose of symbolic value. These statements of yours seem to apply better to group demonstrations of the more traditional variety.
I agree that HN we ought to be willing to go dark, (insofar as HN is a leader of anything) but still vote no on the grounds that it will be a meaningless gesture. Leaders should be willing to sacrifice as they ask from others, that doesn't mean it's helpful in every situation.
ps. I may be biased. I've never been very big on symbolic value.
HN is a group of people (before anything else). If you underestimate yourself or your people, then you are doing a favor to the establishment that wants you and your people to stay invisible.
Think it from different points of view.
For example: if HN goes down, it could be a fact noticeable for a journalist's investigation. With luck, it could become a paragraph in a New York Times article about this subject.
We can't ask "normal non-tech people" sites to go dark if we're not willing to ourselves. Even if few HNers will learn anything new it still sets a good example.
Making a public stand isn't just about using shock-and-awe to create an educational moment. It's also about making headlines and showing solidarity.
Despite the fact that the majority of HN readers already know about SOPA, I think it's an excellent idea for these other reasons.
It might also be an opportunity to get some of us off our butts and use the time we spend reading HN each day to call our representatives in congress instead.
>Making a public stand isn't [...] [is] also about making headlines and showing solidarity.
So you think that HN being off for a few hours will make headlines in the worlds newspapers and on the main TV channels? Maybe as an "some tech websites were also offline [and nothing important was lost]" or maybe even (given the quality of some press) "other illegal hacking sites were down in protest against the bill".
I don't have a representative in congress but nonetheless expect congress is already pushing a similar law for my country.
I find the idea lacks any force as a demonstration.
No, I believe it will alter how the news media writes their story about the Reddit blackout. "Tech sites do blackout" vs "Wacky site shuts itself off for a day".
Agreed, shutting down a website that no one in congress reads, knows about, or would care about even if they knew seems pointless to me.
If you want to have real effect continue (or start) to write your congress-person, educate your friends, and pressure them into doing the same. Post on Facebook, twitter, etc.
Compared to these real actions, shutting down HN is useless pageantry.
I agree with you regarding the fact that no one in congress reads HN, however, I do believe that many people from very big companies (including Google, Facebook, Yahoo, etc) do spend time on HN.
Perhaps "going dark" can help encourage said companies to show support - in a similar way that the Reddit post has triggered this post.
And how better to convince Google, Facebook, twitter, etc. to join us on a blackout or at least a "blackout" than by _all_ of us being a part of it and spreading the word as best we can?
Is it just me or when I read "dark", my instinct is to think "down." More likely it will probably be replaced with something SOPA-related, may be even interactive? So net, we'll still probably be here, just as engaged, but focused on this one thing for a day. All of a sudden this doesn't sound too bad nor meaningless.
Why is shutting down considered a good method of protest. Why not just donate money to the political opponents of those who support SOPA? SOPA is about money, not about public opinion.
Because people vote for the politicians in power. If they want to get re-elected, they need to follow what their voters want. At least, that's the idea. Plus, it adds shame to the politician if he supports something that his constituents hate. For people filled with the pride of being a politician, some good old-fashioned shame could work wonders.
Politicians and large corporations spend money to shape public opinion. People, when united, can change public opinion without spending a dime. Politicians and large corporations are given power by the public.
Because the law-makers in the USA are really going to be concerned that a website they have never heard of, frequented by a community of people who probably don't donate too much into their campaign pockets, has gone 'off the air'...
Let's make the headlines read: "Hundreds of the largest web sites went black today in protest of SOPA" The more black sites, the more powerful the message. It really needs to be pervasive, and it can't be limited to just tech companies.
I'm all for solidarity, symbolism, awareness, etc. but even though you and I and everyone who has ever caused more than two requests from this server knows that "Hacker News" has nothing to do with illegitimate activities, I'm just scared that our technologically-challenged Congressional representatives will hear about us and get the vague idea that "hackers are blacking out the Internet cuz they don't like this anti-piracy bill".
293 comments
[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 229 ms ] threadAnyone who supports SOPA would be glad to see Hacker News down for a day.
What's the point of shutting down Hacker News again?
But this might be a good thing. We will have to struggle through a day's worth of a world without HN and be motivated to do something about it.
+1 for blackout for me.
Come to think of it, I may do this with my website as well. It's no hacker news or Reddit, but it's a good day to do it.
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78
2) Perhaps a blackout will give some HNers the final push (and time) to make some phone calls to their representatives.
3) It can serve as a demonstration of what the web will be like if SOPA kicks in. Many HNers think that SOPA is a bad idea, a blackout will make us feel it as well.
Besides, it'll give us something to do!
One one hand a 24-hour outage would result in loss of a couple of bucks, but on the other, they in fact participated in the IPv6 day, so I'm not sure.
The only way to get a bad law stopped is to destroy the people behind it.
Of course, the question is, how do they define their political neutrality after this?
The most important asset these companies have are highly skilled and sought after researchers. How appealing will Google be to work for if the projects they work on are designed to:
* prevent access to information that researchers require for their studies
* stall or prevent innovation
* favour established and inflexible industries over startups
* increase the amount of bureaucracy everyone has to deal with
* force problems into hiding rather than providing real solutions
I think far more effective than a complete blackout would be requiring HNers contact their representatives before they can access HN content. Not sure how best to implement, but a email form that grants a token upon completion should be feasible (you'd need to decide how to handle non-US based IPs).
I have my doubts regarding the effectiveness of form emails on congresspeople, but I imagine those HNers who were going to call or write a more personal letter still will, with the added benefit of massive form emails from those less motivated to do so otherwise.
edit: grammar
That's in addition to the fact that it's consensus that emails aren't worth a damn here.
And also the fact that it would take significant wasted effort to implement.
If PG did something like this, I'd lose all respect.
If people want to write to their congressperson, they should do that of their own accord, not because they're being pushed into doing that to access HN content.
All the startups/sites that everyone on here runs? Absolutely
You don't even have to go 100% dark, you can just have a splash telling your users about SOPA. You need to realize
For most viewers, just showing a notice explaining SOPA will be too abstract. Shutting down your site or service, while putting up a notice, has a higher chance of bringing the point home.
It is without question that the most effective protests are those that have direct impacts on the opposition and its supporters, but protesting is bigger than that. It is about trying to be heard just as much as it is about being heard. It is about speaking your mind and standing behind things you believe in even when your protest may fall on deaf ears.
For that reason, the overwhelming amount of people within the Hacker News community that oppose SOPA is the perfect reason TO join in the protest.
I would miss Hacker News for the day, but I would take great pride in being a part of a community that stands up for what it believes in.
So for instance democrats depend on notion of symbolic representation to ground their concept of political representation. Without the former, the latter becomes vacuous.
"What kind of advantage does it give us?" seems to be the question. Perhaps it's a moral boost? In the political game, it technically says nothing. In perhaps our own schema of doing things, it technically says nothing. But the idea that people use these tools and can intentionally limit themselves (like with Freedom, the app that locks yr Internet connection) to represent freedom.
Good to support, too.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
http://jacquesmattheij.com/The+Unofficial+HN+FAQ#shark
My account is plenty old, and HN is most certainly seeing a lot more reddit-like posts. Honestly I think the downturn started about the time we lost the ability to see comment points in threads.
I think dropping the comment points was a reaction to the downturn.
Either way, I don't think it's that big of a concern.
I know it's elitist, but I have no wish for this community to get exponentially larger.
For reference, all SOPA related articles on HN: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=SOPA
Is more valuable than that.
To the eyes of history, you have symbolic value in participating of a protest.
People will talk about what you did or did not in historically important (game changer) times.
So is all about how do you want them to talk about you in relation to this?
I agree that HN we ought to be willing to go dark, (insofar as HN is a leader of anything) but still vote no on the grounds that it will be a meaningless gesture. Leaders should be willing to sacrifice as they ask from others, that doesn't mean it's helpful in every situation.
ps. I may be biased. I've never been very big on symbolic value.
Think it from different points of view.
For example: if HN goes down, it could be a fact noticeable for a journalist's investigation. With luck, it could become a paragraph in a New York Times article about this subject.
You can more influential than you are thinking.
Despite the fact that the majority of HN readers already know about SOPA, I think it's an excellent idea for these other reasons.
It might also be an opportunity to get some of us off our butts and use the time we spend reading HN each day to call our representatives in congress instead.
So you think that HN being off for a few hours will make headlines in the worlds newspapers and on the main TV channels? Maybe as an "some tech websites were also offline [and nothing important was lost]" or maybe even (given the quality of some press) "other illegal hacking sites were down in protest against the bill".
I don't have a representative in congress but nonetheless expect congress is already pushing a similar law for my country.
I find the idea lacks any force as a demonstration.
Reddit, HackerNews & SlashDot down = Tech sites blackout
Reddit down = Remember that website that we reported was full of pedophiles last month? ...
If you want to have real effect continue (or start) to write your congress-person, educate your friends, and pressure them into doing the same. Post on Facebook, twitter, etc.
Compared to these real actions, shutting down HN is useless pageantry.
Perhaps "going dark" can help encourage said companies to show support - in a similar way that the Reddit post has triggered this post.
Right... go for it...