Ask HN: What can you do or learn to experience a better love life?
Is experiencing or having a better love life achievable through learning certain skill sets?
I am not asking about shrewd methods to lure someone into loving or wanting you. I am asking about lifelong habits that can make people fall in love with you that eventually remains stable and long lasting.
101 comments
[ 0.20 ms ] story [ 165 ms ] threadFollow https://understandingrelationships.com/life-coaching-service... - read free book 10-20 times :)
Read 'No more Mr. Nice Guy'.
Invest in relationship knowledge as much as you do in other topics of interest.
I don't know about this particular site, though.
Don’t know how much this plays into the long-term aspect, but I figure the easier it is for you to meet people, the easier it will be to meet someone who matches you.
Rule applies here, work on yourself so that you're a better person to be with in a relationship. Work on physical health, good diet, mental wellbeing, work through any past traumas or bad experiences (perhaps with a mental health professional) so you're not carring baggage to future relationships, work on impulse control, emotional control and pretty much the most important one above all others, communication skills.
These things basically apply to all relationships, romantic, professional, friendships, family, etc and are generally good things to work on for your own happiness and wellbeing too.
One thing I'd like to add: do not think your relationship to your loved one is god given, something they owe you or something that you can take for granted. It really helps to remind yourself to view a relationship as what it realistically is: two (or more) people deciding to spend part of their life together for mutual benefit and growth, be it material, emotional or anything else.
If you do not take your relationships for granted you have to ask yourself more if this is what you want and if this is what your loved one should have to love with. Just because they said ues to sharing life with you once, does not mean there is nothing to be done in the long run.
I’m hesitant to give relationship advice on the internet because every relationship is different but if I did “don’t love yourself by proxy” would seem pretty close to universal.
I am not talking about “don’t love yourself by proxy”.
I'm biased the other way, most relationships me and my wife see in our friends are closer to the model parent described, but I realize we actively seek out friends who seem to have more healthy relations than people who don't.
Of course 99% is not completely accurate but it's in the correct direction which is good enough for the statement.
I am observing the world at a whole. You're observing your immediate self-selected friendships and relationships.
Because you're saying most if not every relationship is like that. Obviously it's not.
> but it's in the correct direction
How can you possible know this? Unless I missed some reference to you actively doing research in the area, I'm not sure how you possibly can feel certain enough to even guess "it's in the correct direction".
I'm very confident saying most people can't divorce their spouse in a heartbeat no matter the reason, it is entirely detached from anything I've ever observed about relationships, marriages and divorces, over everyone I've ever known in my entire life.
Most people I know couldn't even be sure whether they'd be happier outside of marriage, many people I've known have stayed together even though they were both miserable, many people I know have had a divorce, when either or both wanted it and were miserable throughout the proceedings. That's not even going into breakups in non-married couples which follow different dynamics but aren't generally easy either.
FWIW, my spouse and I are similar to neom.
One trap that pushes people towards the young cousin end of the spectrum is getting caught up in loving the idea of the relationship more than actually loving the other person.
Anecdotally, long term relationships where one party improves significantly often do not last so it’s good advice to improve yourself before you find the right person.
[1] "That’s a pretty jaded response", "this a overtly negative view of life itself", "How many of these relationships are you personally involved in such that you'd know that?"
[2] "I told her, If my wife asked me for a divorce because our marriage was negatively impacting her life, of course I'd say no problem, if she was to be more happy and fulfilled in that reality, I'd do it in a heartbeat, I love her! It would hurt, and I would be hurt, but ultimately I'd be fine because I trust and love myself, and eventually, even more happy if it meant she was happy. I love her because of who she is, and she loves me because of who I am, we both love ourselves and share love together."
Source: https://memedocumentation.tumblr.com/post/167786791350
Being comfortable in your own skin makes you more confident, confidence is attractive. It will snowball from there.
Sometimes learning a skill can help to start yourself on a good path.
For me it was going through the training to get a pilots license. Holding the license in my hands made me proud of myself and it had a ripple effect that set me on a path of self improvement. Got married few weeks ago.
But the main component is to meet people. Even the most attractive person will stay single if they don't interact with others.
If you want shrewd methods, and hacks, it boils down to this too. Be interested, not interesting. Debate, but in a way that you want to know more and not to impress.
The next level is love. My favorite definition of love is unequivocal and unconditional commitment to the welfare of another. There's three difficult words there: unequivocal, unconditional, and commitment. Most people can't do that.
A lot of it is about yourself too. Handle your traumas. Unconditional commitment is the most abused thing in the world. But until you can get there, you can't really love. That's why many keep pets, because pets can't exploit that love.
Almost no one can do that, or should do that. Your mother loves you, sometimes your father. If you are a good parent your kids will love you. But don't be silly, your romantic partner rarely loves you the same way. If you are a constant burden to your romantic partner, they should move on. They will move on. And so should you if you find yourself in the same position.
Advice for OP. Don't demand that people fall in love with you. And by the definitions of the post above me, be careful to falling in love. You don't want to live for someone else, live for yourself. Don't demand others to live for you. Make yourself happy and make others happy.
However, love is willing the good of the other as other and doing something to effect that. That's why traditional wedding vows aren't about "I will always feel this way about you" and instead "regardless of what life throws at us or my feelings, I will commit everything to this relationship". And it's done in front of something greater than either of you (e.g. God) and in front of your community.
When both parties do this, you end with a very healthy base for a marriage. If the base for your marriage is commitment to positive feelings, then it will fall apart.
[seriously, think of it like hardcore bug fixing so you can have production stability, performance tweaks and less maintenance burden]
People like being around happy people. Be a person that other people want to be around.
Be a happy person. Doesn't matter how much you listen, or communicate, or commit, feel ... the other party isn't going to stick around long if you are unhappy.
Be happy.
No! It cannot be that simple! Yeah, but if you ask people in there 50s and older that is the common core answer to that question.
Either learn form your elders or do not...my bias is that I am of later half of the boomer generation.
Communication isn’t about eloquence it’s about conveying what each person thinks, wants, hopes etc which involves both verbal and non verbal responses. Not bringing something up is failing to communicate as is hiding what you want or talking over them etc. That very much applies in and out of bead.
Finances make and break long term relationships, it’s the most common thing for couples to argue about and can quickly poison relationships. Impulse control is a big part of this, as is communicating expectations etc. There isn’t a universal correct answer but they are many pitfalls.
Health is a skill just as much as it’s a time and money sink. Leaning to deal with stress and unhealthy habits are a prerequisite for a healthy relationship. This goes both ways, physical and mental attractiveness is dependent on both mental and physical heath.
Time management it’s more about priorities than scheduling. Relationships take time as do kids, work, hobbies, etc.
Happiness is a skill and habit. If things aren’t going well you need to figure a way to improve them not just push through. Planning and following through long term is important not just fantasizing about things getting better.
Chores are as much habits as anything else, you can change your habits if you make real effort.
Also there is a saying which goes in the direction: to love, to hate, or not to care. It's great to love, sometimes there can be hate/anger/disagreement, but you know the relationship needs work if you stop caring about each other in certain situations. So whenever one falls into 3, it's time to think, talk and do something. It's not always critical, but it shows an absence of attention for each other.
And my grandmother used to say, sometimes you can be very angry at each other, it's important to discuss it thoroughly, maybe even loud, and then leave it there and go on.
Every day we have a chat like two friends. Changes from day to day, humorous or serious, world events or household events or gossip.
I wasn't super aware that not all couples do this, but as others around us have had problems and split/divorced they've opened up and said they've never really talked much, or they used to but haven't for some time.
It makes sense to me. Little problems turn into big ones because you never talked about them, your partner didn't know how you felt, and it escalates into unhappiness. Or (and I'm surprised by this, but it's been a theme in recent divorces) you never actually talked much with your partner and didn't know that they were a complete twat.
“Say what you mean” by Oren Jay Sofer changed my life. Learning to actually, well, say what I was trying to say, to be facetious.
It was mind blowing to realise I was actually sending out completely contradictory messages.
NVC by Marshall Rosenberg is also good, but Sofer covers it.
I had, along with most I would say, unconsciously learnt a kind of domination language from the world around me growing up. Always trying to be right, using the aesthetic of logic and creating sides.
Learning to lead with curiosity, to actually listen to the other person was saying and think about it before responding to what they were saying instead of the concurrent Monolog of what I though they were saying was wiiiiiild.
I gained close friends in a way I always craved, I grew and and still growing closer to my partner. I calmed down a LOT, arguing less after realising I neither needed to win nor disagree.
I’m a fanboy, it’s life changing stuff.
Another parallel track was learning to be a more interesting person. I had sort of relaxed into dyadic life, looking to my partner for entertainment, sort of blaming them when I was unhappy or bored. Finding stuff to do on my own helped majorly. Hobbies and clubs, finding things I enjoyed others respected outside of work. Building light installations for music festivals in my case.
I'm still learning to volunteer more, without them having to prompt me for it.
Yes some things are hard to hear from your partner. Be accepting, and expect the same from them.
Instead,
1. Be the best, and authentic person you can be. Authenticity is not found by looking outside, but rather, connecting deeper within your consciousness. Various forms of meditation allows one to explore this space. This means working through layers of conditioning, expectations, and hangups related to this: beliefs and attitudes about love, beliefs and attitudes about success, what you truly value (rather than what you are conditioned to value), hangups around seeking approval, intimacy, etc. Therapy can be a good way to get help exploring this if you don’t know anyone you can connect with for wisdom.
2. Care for and contribute towards something greater than you. This connects what you discover about yourself in (1) to the world outside of you. When this clicks, it gives a sense of purpose to your life.
3. Give others a chance to know who you are, from (1). This is a relaxing on the psychological armoring surrounding (1). Approach dating as such, as a way two people are discovering each other, rather than aiming for a particular outcome or meeting certain metrics.
Falling in love can be a profound experience. However, I can tell you that being in relation, and relationships involves a lot more than falling in love. Any long-term relationship and life partnership is far more difficult than dating, and the expectations people create around notions of “falling in love” puts unreasonable demands on each other.
The advice I hear from couples who have been married for decades, particularly those from traditional Indian marriages (which are arranged by the parents), is “tolerance”. And it’s going to the little, stupid stuff you tolerate. Sense of humor helps a lot here.
Hold on. This can be terrible advice. Suppose the "authentic" you is an asshole, or suppose the "authentic" you refuses to do "standard dating maneuvers" like flirting, that are part of the common language that society expects you to participate in to even get a chance. Then you should abandon authenticity and change those things about yourself, you should put some effort into learning about what is "generally expected".
Example, younger me would go on dates, and try to be the person the other person wanted (without realizing this until later in life).
This kind of inauthentic actions is ultimately untruthful and will cause more problems down the line.
What I meant by authenticity goes more than that. It’s gaining an intuitive knowing of who you really are, past the layers of beliefs and conditionings. It’s more that just who you think the person you are dating expects. It is also your parent’s expectations, or even your religious and cultural expectations. It goes past even what you _think_ you should be.
That’s why I said, meditation helps with this process, and so does therapy.
So more than actions, it is also beliefs, values, and attitudes.
The flip side is you don't accept the guidelines that society suggests and you spend your days lonely (waiting for the chance encounter with the person who somehow isn't wired to social expectations) when you could have been working on those muscles, most of which if practiced through your relationship will likely make your relationship better off.
What you shouldn't do is compromise your integrity. Like doing shitty things just because other people say you should.
But there is a distinction between integrity and authenticity that is important. The former is critical, the latter is something that is generally overrated.
> Example, younger me would go on dates, and try to be the person the other person wanted (without realizing this until later in life)... This kind of inauthentic actions
But that's the thing. Being a "people pleaser" was the authentic younger you. Possibly coming out of a place of desperation. Thank goodness you figured your shit out and changed your personality to something that was inauthentic, at least in the beginning
However, that kind of attitude and frame will not work well for a healthy relationship. People’s feelings are not outcomes you can manage your way towards.
You are, of course, free to do as you like. I’m just sharing some hard-earned experience.
"staying authentic" a priori prevents you from learning healthy relationship dynamics. You will never get there in the first place.
1) Be the best person you can be (and seek to find for yourself what that means, by noticing the people you admire in your life who you judge to be good people)
2) Don't pretend to be something you are not just to find a relationship or impress someone. If you followed 1), then you will be both attractive and acting in a way you feel good about, instead of being an asshole.
This generally agrees with your comment, while adding a bit with point 2) about how authenticity can be defined as "don't be something you are not, unless you genuinely want to change for yourself and yourself only."
Or rather, if you are going to use a role model, there is a particular confusion I advise watching out for. Your own admiration reflects your deep sense of qualities important to you, not necessarily something inherent in the person behind the role model. The role model’s role is not to model behaviors and actions, but to reflect what is already within you.
Once you recognize this feeling of admiration, I advise tracing, with your own awareness and mind, where it is coming from within. That involves meditation, and maybe therapy.
If instead, you chase after that other person, you awareness goes after them. Maybe you luck out, and the person behind the role model will keep reflecting it back to you. Chances are, that is not what will happen.
Assholes are those who do not have the well-being of others at heart. They are generally wrapped up un psychological armoring, wanting to make an impact while also don’t want to be touched. As such, they have terrible problems with intimacy.
Note that my other two advice addresses those. Being able to care for and contribute to something greater than yourself can’t really be done while being an asshole. Although I wrote a couple sentences about this, this is actually a deep topic to explore.
As far as changing yourself, you’d make effort at changing that because you deeply want that change, not because society expects you to. If someone tried to fake it, it will come up during moments of intimacy, or when the relationship is stressed. It takes tremendous courage to experience the vulnerability that is revealed with intimacy; and social expectation as a motivation by itself is not a deep enough well.
As far as things like flirting goes because it is socially expected … if someone does it like that, at best, it is awkward —- because your actions are not connected to how you really feel —-, often with the other person being put off by it. (Unless they really like you, and they find your awkwardness cute or endearing). Or, it is shallow (social expectation is not a sufficiently deep well to draw from), or manipulative (focusing too much on the outcome, at which point, the other person is not a potential partner or lover, but a piece of meat which should do things if you followed socially expected behavior).
The short answer: you’d end up self-sabotaging, even if you get lucky and get some short term results.
1) Learn emotional vulnerability. This makes love and emotional depth in a relationship possible. It also shows confidence and strength as it can be scary. Models by Mark Manson is a great book on this.
2) Learn social skills to manage conflicts and set boundaries, e.g. assertive communication.
3) Deal with your emotional issues, e.g. with therapy.
4) Be attractive and take care of your body. Regular weight training, a healthy diet, dressing well, and grooming well can really transform your physical attractiveness. Spend time really learning these things, and consider hiring experts to teach you, e.g. a fitness coach. None of the emotional or social things above will help if your partner isn’t physically attracted to you.
5) Get good at sex. This depends a lot on what you want, and what the person you are dating wants… and can be taboo to talk about. But in my experience most (but not all) straight women want a partner to be surprisingly dominant and aggressive.
Ultimately all of these just amount to being emotionally and physically healthy.
I had a lot of anxiety about my attractiveness going back on the dating market after ending a 20 year relationship, but I had been working hard on the above things for years. I was surprised to find that, as a middle aged man, I really stood out as a desirable partner, and dating was a really enjoyable experience.
4) regular exercise and improving yourself also gives you a sense of achievement and something to be proud of if you set and achieve your goals. In addition to the physical changes, these will make you more attractive.
5) You can learn about sex (what you enjoy, what your preferred partners might enjoy) on your own. The better you know yourself and the better informed you are, the easier it is to communicate and find common ground with partners as well. I've been reading Dan Savage since my twenties, and recently listening to him in a podcast made me realize how much of a positive effect his approach to sex and relationships has had on me.
This book helped me tremendously, miles ahead of any mental health professionals that I met. You can read the first two chapters for free[2]. It's also available as an audiobook on Audible[3], and it's read by the authors of the book.
Outline:
– First part: practical ways to build a better relationship with yourself.
– Second part: a better relationships with yourself empowers you to build healthy relationships with others and set realistic boundaries. The book then gives you practical & actionable tips to help you handle the interpersonal aspects of relationships.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Soulmate-Experience-Practical-Extraor...
[2] http://www.maliandjoe.com/freechapters
[3] https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Soulmate-Experience-Audiobook...
You as an HN reader I assume are intellectually-minded and tend to pursue subjects more deeply than most. If that’s the case, and if that’s an approach you’d likely take in learning about and experiencing a better ‘love life’, then you may be best off seeing that as a quest or artistic endeavour rather than a pursuit for existing answers.
Based on your question, and specifically the wording of your question, you’ll need to form a personal ‘framework’ for yourself. I think the formula is thus: Read widely and off the beaten path. Evaluate your inclinations and behaviour in relation to others in a wide variety of intimate situations and in relation to what you want. Engage in sexual situations with others who seem to navigate sexuality well for themselves; ask questions and observe.
Love is about commitment.
The quality and intimacy of my relationships (both romantic and interpersonal) before and after I stopped consuming pornography is night-and-day.
This is something that you can do which will remain stable and long lasting for the rest of your life, and it has amplified my ability to love and to receive love immeasurably.