She was the youngest Microsoft Certified Professional in history at age 9. Her genius can be better appreciated in a geographical context. Pakistan has a non-existent culture of Start ups and original products. Thinking out of the box can sometimes even become a Taboo. The support system for doing a start up, building a product or even meaningful contribution to a real-world project , especially at her age simply does not exist. It's therefore not a wonder that she did not produce anything you can measure by your paradigm of a 'Programmer Prodigy'. Passing the MS Certification at her tender age was reflective of her genius. That she wasn't able to translate that into a contribution to a project that had demonstrable external value is irrelevant simply because the cultural and geographical limitations rendered her unable to do so.
Are you sure? I mean, yes, this goes for the become an mscp at 9 in Pakistan (which is harder than elsewhere), but she got such a large amount of media attention and I think her father is some kind of big shot in Pakistan as well. It sounds like she was able enough despite the limitations you mention, she just didn't do it?
Look, wealth of family is just one very minute side of it. To actually translate your programming skills into an actual product, or startup or contribute to a real-world project, you need a lot more than that. You need mentors, you need awareness, you need tangible inspirations around you, ones that you can learn from and follow, you need advice, you need peers that you can collaborate with. That her achievements remained limited to passing a certification at a young age was because she didn't have any opportunity, or i would even argue , even awareness to take it to the next level. This awareness and opportunity is a product of so many more factors that i have highlighted above, not just media attention and financial power of one's family.
Fair point, still, she seemed quite creative. But you are right; 'we' have a different point of view. At least that's what it seems like.
Edit: I have some reservations about saying that though; I work with Pakistani designers and programmers, normal people, mostly not even well educated (just a bit) with just enough money to have bought a computer and learn some stuff. And they made products, sites, money just out of nothing like we would do here. So in that regard I have come to know at least some Pakistani as people who, despite their culture, mentors (and general lack there of), peers (and lack there of) and without the press, certification, education and wealthy family who took more or less the same path as 'we' westerners would. There are exceptions to most rules and I would think she would be that.
Being a "genius" is not the same as a "programming prodigy". In order to be a "programming prodigy" you have to "program" something. The above comment was asking for evidence that this very smart girl "programmed" something. Neither claiming Pakistan is a poor programming environment nor that she is an MCP (very impressive BTW) constitutes such evidence.
>In order to be a "programming prodigy" you have to "program" something
Programming an actual product is but just ONE measure of someone's programming prowess. Standardized tests is another one, and one that is quite Valid. In fact, it's the one used by almost every Technology Company out there to gauge programming skill and aptitude. Passing of MS Certification , at her age, in my book atleast is valid evidence.
I think what is remarkable is not her accomplishments (i mean she is only 16), but her mindset. There are very few 10 year olds that have the mindset to create something and have any sort of introspection on life. Most are preoccupied with friends, playing, and having a good time. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does set her apart from her peer-group; despite the fact that she may have come from a well todo family and is not succumbed to the limitations in Pakistan. I know many children who have a privileged childhoods (pretty much everyone in first world countries) who do not think the say she does.
I hate to write this, since the tragic happening but really, the hype is widely unjustified.
I started programming when I was 8, I know a lot of people that started meddling around with computer around the same age, and I was born a decade before her which, in computer years, is like a century. Everything programming related was a hundred times more difficult to accomplish than it is now - I wrote assembly on a C64, because that's all my poor family could afford, with nothing more than a printsheet of the opcodes. And no internet, keep that in mind. And I won't say I'm a prodigy because of that.
I am also an MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional) and I can tell you that the exam was nothing but difficult - basically, it had nothing to do with actual programming and more with knowing what checkbox to flag. I studied for it the evening before the test.
I've seen so many stories like this, most of them not as tragic and not as heartwarming. For example, a heir of a very wealth family that I know has been featured in at least 10 Italian newspapers as "the new Mark Zuckerberg" or "the 20 years-old startupper" or "the genius behind <his startup>", all because his family has deep ties with the editors.
That has taught me never to believe a thing of what I read on something even vaguely institutionalized.
Really? A young girl dies, hacker or not. A writer who was touched by her writes about it. And the only thing worth writing is that you beat her to programming by 2 years. Bravo!
Not that this applies to you, but at what age do people learn empathy and sensitivity?
No no no not at all - Sorry if it came out that way.
On a personal level, I am deeply sorry for her death. Given time, she might have become a great programmer.
On a more general level, when I see something like this on the news, I can't help but ask myself why exactly somebody has written an article about this particular person. In this case, it doesn't seem to me that she was the prodigy they're talking about. A smart kid with a will to improve herself? Certainly. But think about the context - she came from a very rich Pakistani family. What would you think, as a 16 year old boy from Pakistan, coming from a poor family and working your bones off to make a living, coding at night, of this story? Because, you know, it's very likely that there's somebody like the boy in question in Pakistan.
Scope mixing is the bane of modern communication. You can't use empathy as an excuse to talk about anything. This personal tragedy should have remained personal, not brought up on the news. Just my humble opinion.
My family is of Pakistani origin, and I have lived in Pakistan for several years. I think discounting her talent, simply because she's from a "very rich Pakistani family" is unfair.
Yes, elitist families have more opportunities than the rest, but counter-intuitively given the feudal elite culture of Pakistan, the rich are often devoid of ambition and simply join family businesses. Girls, especially, are raised with no other ambition than to get married.
I think for this girl to have such greater ambitions, despite the rampant chauvinistic expectations of her society, despite a country where everyone (including the rich) have 5-10 hrs of electricity/gas/water a day, despite living in a country in political upheaval, is pretty exemplary. And her talent, as such, is impressive in context.
I think andreadallera just wants an msnbc digital life writeup as well.
andreadallera, here's the author's email address todd@geekwire.com, enjoy petitioning him for your own digital ink noting and praising your deep feelings of self worth -- those being more important than the death of a child.
I believe I read "SAMS 24 Hours to HTML" at 8-9 years of age and produced my own "replica watches" website (because i figured they were profitable to sell, and I sure wanted one :P).
I remembered getting about 80 emails from potential customers, asking my parents for their credit cards/money in order to acquire some merchandise and a domain name, and them completely freaking out (because of all the "credit cards + internet = FRAUD!" adverts at the time).
So thankful the internet has progressed into what it is now.
Jesus, every damn time someone of note passes away we get a bunch of morons on here telling us how the accomplishments aren't as good as they seem. You people need to learn when to bite your tongues. I'm willing to bet if it were some VC going on and on about his/her life's works, the last thing you'd do is point out how unremarkable and unimpressive any of it is.
Let's see if a similar article is written up about your achievements when you pass away.
> we get a bunch of morons on here telling us how the accomplishments aren't as good as they seem.
Whoa, easy. I have expressed my opinion and I have backed it up well I think. No hate for the poor girl, that's just terrible that somebody 16 years old have to die, no matter his or her accomplishments.
On the other hand, what accomplishments are we talking about here? Seriously, I'm really sorry for the poor girl, I really am, but still I can't see the accomplishment she's made.
And, honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about what people will write about me when I'm dead.
I don't get this angry when commenting here but the disgusting lack of empathy continually expressed on HN really, really gets to me. If you truly felt sorry for the girl, for her family, considered her family's pride for what she accomplished not only for herself but possibly for other kids in Pakistan, then you wouldn't feel the need to point out any of what you've stated.
I read the article and found it quite inspirational that a girl her age had so much motivation. Most kids at the age of 9 are playing their Wii's and watching early-morning reruns of Power Rangers. Her achievements go beyond technical certification.
But it's alright. Let's be champions of truth and justice at the sacrifice of appreciation and empathy. It'd be the hacker thing to do, anyway. It's happened with Dropbox, AirBnB, Steve Jobs, etc, already; so one more added to the list is a drop in the bucket.
Empathy should have nothing to do with your ability to evaluate facts. Empathy has an evil cousin, politically correctness. When politically correctness comes into play, you lose the game. You can't talk about anything with a straight perspective because, you know, somebody might get offended.
A 16 years old kid has died. That is a sad fact by itself. If she was the dumbest kid in Pakistan that wouldn't have made the fact less sad - only, you wouldn't have known it. If she was the poorest kid in Pakistan, same thing. Now, you know that a lot of 16 years old kids die in Pakistan? Most of them with family situations much worse than the one she was in? Do you feel empathy for them? I bet so. That's a good thing, a human thing to feel.
Now, as a thought experiment, let's say she wasn't a Pakistani little girl. Let's say she was a 16 years old boy coming from a rich US family. Even fat and greasy, to add to the image. Let's also add that this one didn't die - he's well off in his NY mansion eating Snickers all day. What would you have thought of the article? "16 years old kid from NY loves messing around with .NET". Wouldn't you have said: who cares? And rightly so?
Empathy drains perspective. Feeling empathy is the noblest thing in the world. At the same time, it doesn't mean that it should suspend your ability to evaluate situations. A big problem with our society and our communication channels is that they routinely employ this effect to steer public opinion where they want it to be. Don't be a sucker - be human, but use your brain.
> Empathy should have nothing to do with your ability to evaluate facts.
Frankly, your original post was extremely light on facts. The only relevant fact that you presented is that you think the MCP exam is easy. You wrote:
> the hype is widely unjustified
You really don't have enough information. You're looking at a single fact without context, and saying that it's nothing special. For some context, check out khalidmbajwa's comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3467046
You could have at least stated that you felt sorry for the girl's death in your first post. Instead, it sounded more like you were focused on discrediting her skills without heed to the sensitivity of her passing. She might not've been a true prodigy, and you may be fed up with articles like this, but please show some dignity.
The reason why it's remarkable (and I use the word literally) is because 16-year-old girls from Pakistan do not start with the same advantages as 16-year-old boys in the US. It's not surprising, given that, if one outcome is ignored and the other is celebrated.
Again, perspective. On average, that's certainly true. In this specific instance, not so. Take a 16 year old boy from the ghetto in the US and compare it to a rich upper caste Pakistani girl. Who has the most advantages?
I think, in changing your thought experiment, you're making my point for me.
If a 16-year-old boy from the ghetto in the US became the world's youngest MCP at the age of 9, I would absolutely expect that to be news.
I would also think it was particularly unworldly to comment on the reporting of his untimely death, "well, I, as a white man with excellent access to education, got an MCP at the age of 20, and it wasn't all that hard".
The challenges that Arfa, or your hypothetical ghetto programmer, faced, were entirely different, and quite probably greater to the ones you faced, and they achieved a specific milestone a long time before you did. I genuinely can't imagine the mindset that attempts to minimize rather than celebrating their achievements.
I know I'm beating a dead horse but I'll try anyway.
> If a 16-year-old boy from the ghetto in the US became the world's youngest MCP at the age of 9, I would absolutely expect that to be news.
It's very, very likely that some 9 years old kid in the ghetto has produced something much more noteworthy than becoming an MCP. You would expect that to be in the news, but it isn't there.
> well, I, as a white man with excellent access to education, got an MCP at the age of 20, and it wasn't all that hard
What I was trying to say is: think that you are a poor Pakistani little kid, working your ass off between work/school hours on your lame old computer. What would you think of the celebrations here? Again, that Pakistani little kid most likely exists. Most likely, there's hundreds of them. You don't hear of them in the news.
You are a true engineer right to the end. Sticking your foot in your mouth and then continually trying to use logic to climb out of the hole you dug for yourself. The next time someone of note passes away, resist the urge to take them down a notch and just keep your mouth shut.
And you're a true manager right to the end, my friend. Making decision with your heart alone and refusing to see logic and data when they're in front of you.
There's nothing logical about your post, because a logical post wouldn't ignore that she was a 9 year old girl from Pakistan when she became a MCP and you weren't a 9 year old girl from Pakistan when you became a MCP. You refuse to see the vast amount of differences between you and her and then continue to make a comparison as though it has any meaning.
If you read my comments, you'll see that I wasn't making a comparison between me and her. I was making a comparison between her and somebody who's accomplished what she did and much more without being born in a rich family, and is striving to get something to eat at the end of the day. There's plenty of them, why aren't they on the news?
I strongly disagree with you but was planning on staying out of this conversation. But now I feel compelled to interject.
Your example fails in supporting your point. Your example person could not be more different from Arfa.
Your character: Fat Boy who enjoys messing with .NET is alive and enjoying his snickers bar.
Arfa: Young Intelligent, Motivated Girl Concretely acting in fulfilling her goals and bettering her environment dies at 16.
It does not matter her gender, age or privilege. Her outlook, her willingness to act in perusing her goals and enrichment - in spite of her "silver spoon" - puts her ahead of a lot of people. Do not underestimate the power of taking things for granted.
We agree that her early death is tragic. But is it fair that so many other people also die and no one notices? No it is not fair. I agree. But the reality of the matter is that attention is a scarce resource and will always be. Now, If I had somehow heard about the death of your rich fat kid from NYC then I would certainly feel empathy for the parents and the early loss. But the reality is, a random person hearing of that event is not a likely scenario. Most news outlets would not be interested.
Many people, some more technically accomplished than Arfa will not get similar coverage. But technical accomplishment is not the sole determinant of value as a person or worth in attention units. If you look at how we price people's worth in attention you will notice that it is only loosely correlated with the value of the labor they put into improving themselves and more correlated with how much demand for their attention they can create.
As for Arfa's case she actually does stands up to scrutiny of the worth of her accomplishments. The real loss is not her current skill but the time derivative of it, the rate of increase, her potential. The fact that she had already made news, met Bill Gates, lack of greed, willingness to give back and the inspirational aspect of it all. Those add to make hers a very uncommon situation and hence worth covering by the media.
Her dying is a very sad event as is the case for nearly all deaths. But make no mistake, this coverage is not due to the empathy of the news outlets but a calculated cost value decision. Fair or not that is the reality of it and there is no gain in focusing on how many others are not covered instead giving more weight to the tragic fact of her loss. She has gotten to your ellipsoid of attention. That alone justifies the attention she is receiving, not an accounting of how easy it is to replicate her accomplishments. Such a stance is not much difference from holding a belief that I could make stackoverflow in a week.
Finally I completely disagree that empathy drains perspective. Empathy gives perspective. You underestimate the value of social and emotional intelligence, which are vital in getting people to work together and overcome difficulties. Empathy is exactly trying to get someone's perspective and then using that to your mutual advantages (or manipulate to get ahead). Intelligence in species is correlated with complexity of social groups. Some argue Neanderthals were more IQ intelligent than us - closer to our savants but we overcame them by being more able to work together and having a superior Collective Intelligence.
Empathy is not an enemy of rationality. See Higher order intentionality. I have a pet theory that the empathetic mind is a simulation based intelligence, dual to the calculation based intelligence commonly linked to I.Q. You can run simulations, or run outright calculations to get at the same answer. Some things are easier to calculate others easier to simulate. Both add perspective and neither has ordinality.
Spot-on. This entire thread is a good example of people stopping thinking rationally and trying to censor people who disagree with them just because once they got into irrational empathic state they think they have higher moral ground.
Feeling empathy and being sad for whatever reason is ok, but trying to project to other and decline them the right to ask the question or to make a statement in a respectful manner is not.
The nice thing about textual discussion is that you can have multiple opinions being analyzed at once. Just because not every single person is mourning in every message they write, doesn't mean nobody cares about the obvious tragedy. But there's no fun in analyzing the obvious. This girl is an absolute inspriation, and andreadallera helped remind me that it's not too late to hope for similar status for myself one day.
>Bullshit. Utter bullshit.
I don't get this angry when commenting here but the disgusting lack of empathy continually expressed on HN really, really gets to me.
What is more disgusting is the millions of people who make massive contributions, but aren't mentioned.
> You people need to learn when to bite your tongues.
While I appreciate your proselytizing suggestion that we change our entire moral and ethical framework based on what some random person on the internet wrote in anger and eschew logic and reason, I will bite my tongue whenever I please, thank you very much.
Reason is right. Andreadallera are you telling us that a parent is not supposed to lobby for his/her own child? Which father wouldn't use his connections to showcase their children's talent? You certainly managed to slip in your own prodigious talents in your comment. Do you know what youve done? You've used somebody's tragedy to feel good about yourself.
What is wrong with you? What does her death have to do with you? That was one of the most disgusting, least human, comments I've ever seen written on HN.
What does her death has to do with you? What does her death has to do with all of us?
What disgusts me is the lack of tact and consideration of editors and maybe her parents - the first are ready to exploit the death of a 16 years old girl to make some uniques, the seconds (I really hope that's not the case) are ready to put their child on the cover for some advertising.
Have you considered that their motive may have been to inspire? Life is very frail, and this young girl's accomplishments in life may have a profound positive impact on other children for generations to come. How can you not honor that?
It's supposed to be a positive inspirational story and it is supposed to attract readers. Perhaps there is some liberty being taken with the adjectives but as you are aware, there are many things to consider when it comes to putting a piece of news together. The hype is not necessarily created for the benefit of the subject.
Like you, I don't wish to disparage what she actually <I>did</I> but calling her a "prodigy" is a bit of a stretch. I see it more of an insult to her memory to over hype her accomplishment than anything else. She came from a very rich family and she passed a test. Yay for her but what about the real poor people in Pakistan that will never have the opportunities she had no matter how talented they are. The emotional outbursts on HN of all places in her defence are, um, disappointing to say the least.
I'm sorry that she had to die (really, I was shocked when I read she had died), but dying at a young age does not make one prodigy. She was (I'm certain of that) an extremely bright and self-confident kid. But better leave it at that. Saying that she was the greatest programmer of all time or the greatest person that had ever walked this earth is just insulting her memory, and belittles her achievements (which is much greater than mine's when I was her age).
I surveyed the comment thread; there are some people being pedantic, and some who are annoyed at various things, but I haven't seen a whole lot of hate.
I don't know quite what Pakistan's cultural norms are, but I suspect that being female, the "youngest MCP" thing may have been even that much more remarkable.
Don't forget that that same prime minister was brutally assassinated when she tried to return to her country. And she was kicked out forcibly, had to live in exile for many years. A remarkable woman. The movie "Bhutto" about her life is well worth seeing.
Sure being an "MCP" in the HN circle is absolutely meaningless and doesn't warrant the title "programming prodigy", but that's not the point of this article. The point is that this was a girl who came from a third world country where women are not treated as well as men are in the West, and made it to the Redmond campus based on her own ambition and drive to do something for herself.
> and made it to the Redmond campus based on her own ambition and drive to do something for herself.
Sorry but no. Again, I don't want to belittle her accomplishments - it's certainly a feat for any girl or boy her age to be even able to put a very simple application together, but she came from a very wealthy Pakistani family. Saying that she made it to Redmond out of her own ambition and drive is spitting in the face of all her not so privileged compatriots who are struggling to do the same.
Probably because he/she recognizes that any such discussion will not lead to any possibly productive output and instead be a pointless match of tilting at windmills.
For what it's worth, I'm getting the same vibe from you. Your first contribution to this thread was basically taking a big steaming dump over this young lady's accomplishments. Why would you do that? It didn't add anything to the discussion, and instead makes you look like a colossal jerk. If this were not HN, I'd think you were just plain trolling.
__Probably because he/she recognizes that any such discussion will not lead to any possibly productive output and instead be a pointless match of tilting at windmills.__
Yet he/she takes the effort to right that down? I love it when people take part in a discussion, then, when a reply is on it's way they say "let's not discuss this more". If it's not worth discussing why bother dropping such useless statements? Ever considering not enter the discussion in the first place? It's not rocket science.
__For what it's worth, I'm getting the same vibe from you. Your first contribution to this thread was basically taking a big steaming dump over this young lady's accomplishments. Why would you do that? It didn't add anything to the discussion, and instead makes you look like a colossal jerk. If this were not HN, I'd think you were just plain trolling.__
I strongly disagree. andreadallera didn't took 'a big steaming dump' over this young lady's achievements. He/she simply question them. I have no idea if this young lady accomplished much or not, but how is questioning the same as denying?
>Yet he/she takes the effort to right that down? I love it when people take part in a discussion, then, when a reply is on it's way they say "let's not discuss this more". If it's not worth discussing why bother dropping such useless statements? Ever considering not enter the discussion in the first place? It's not rocket science.
Because you realized you made a mistake by entering the discussion in the first place. It's like trying to argue evolution with a creationist who you don't know is a creationist when you start talking. You find out, and then you go "Oh man, this is gonna go nowhere fast. I'm off."
>He/she simply question them.
Common fucking decency would imply that a thread discussing the death of someone is not the proper place to question their accomplishments in life.
An MCP at 9 years old is a big deal. I know it might have been easy for some of you geniuses in here, but this girl was 9.
I believe he's pointing out, accurately, that wealthy families in Pakistan can be just as privileged as middle-class Americans. He's saying it's unfair to use this girl as an example of those actually living in under-privileged poverty conditions in Pakistan.
It's a fair objection, though rather emotionally contentious given the context.
Pakistani women are still not as privileged as men. Even if you were to compare a wealthy Pakistani family to some sort of American class (which would be very hard, since you would be ignoring both cultures), she would still be notable for being a 9 year old girl who became a MCP.
I think the point that it's more about the notions of the wealthy family than of the girl. Wealth allows families to transcend or disregard social norms. In this case it is clear that her family chose to raise her a particular way, and give her particular opportunities that, as you point out, would not be available to most Pakistani women.
This is precisely the point raised above, that this story is primarily about the opportunity provided by the family. But you are right, it's important to note that her family was evidently both wealthy and progressive.
I know privileged and smart 30 year olds for whom getting a real job or moving out of the house would be a major major accomplishment. This girl was 10.
Writing off her accomplishments due to privilege is unfair.
Agreed. Even here in the good old Bay Area there are quite a few trust fund kids with zero work ethic, little motivation and no desire to ever work because their parents will let them ride the money indefinitely. Very sad.
The conclusion I take from all the downvotes to this user's comments is that the HN croud has the emotional stability of a soap opera character.
What's with everybody being so sentimental? The little girls passed away, it's a sad outcome for this young person and her family. But why does any attempt to question her 'prodigy' title gets so aggressive downvoting?
May I suggest, that if you disagree, reply with your rational opinion rather than playing the feelings/respect-the-death card along with your downvoting?
One day you will come back to the comments you made here and find yourself embarrassed for sounding like such a little person. I hope you're better than this and we are just misunderstanding you.
I remember when the stories about Afra getting certified came out years ago. Regardless of some comments on HN about her accomplishments being over-hyped, I think we can all agree that she had a bright future and her death is tragic.
I remember reading about this girl years ago. Like some of the other commenters I wasn't that surprised about her MSFT certification. I mean even a 10-year old can geek out on that kind of stuff, it wasn't that notable.
However I just noticed this quote from her, which is so much more remarkable for a 10-year old:
"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."
To me that's the amazing part of her story, and something she can teach others about forever.
When I was young (8-9 years old) everyone - peers, teachers, and parents - told me to stop being so outspoken. "Think before you speak" was drilled into me for years, continuously. It was probably the worst advice I have ever received.
"Think before you speak" is always good advice. The "confidence of the mind" referred above does not mean that you should shit out everything that pops in your head.
Ah, but the question is, are you saying something stupid, or something actually quite intelligent that other people just don't want to hear? The latter tends to attract even more hostility than the former.
And neither have anything to do with shyness. "Think before you speak" is still very important advice, and then if you prefer to not raise hostility, do it because you chose so not because of shyness.
"Think before you speak" makes it very difficult to hold a normal conversation. Of course I'm not anti-thinking but it's very difficult to express yourself (in most media, but especially talking) if you hesitate constantly.
If you're having trouble speaking well, the solution probably isn't to speak slower, but to learn over time how to speak better at-speed.
> "Of course I'm not anti-thinking but it's very difficult to express yourself (in most media, but especially talking) if you hesitate constantly."
I vehemently disagree - some of my most respected people in life pause frequently while speaking, and will directly ask for a moment when questioned about something, to collect their thoughts. I give these people's words incredible weight in my life not just because I respect them as people, but knowing that what they're telling me is well considered instead of knee-jerk.
I think the social expectation of having an answer at the drop of a hat on anything is pretty unfortunate, and makes us all a little bit dumber.
I completely agree. I was told the same and was seen as mature by elders for being pensive and quiet. It's difficult to reverse it to favor our true nature, which is what we excel at.
The biggest tribute you can make to someone's life, like hers, is to take a moment to reflect, heed their advice, and incorporate it into your own. That's the stuff they would most like to see.
I'm going to refrain from commenting on her abilities. One problem I have with "X accomplished person passed away" on the internet is that a free-for-all seems to start, wherein everyone feels qualified to judge that person's accomplishments from behind a monitor. Steve Jobs, whoever, it might seem unfair that just because someone died that the "unworthy" things they did get celebrated. I disagree.
What did strike me as particularly relevant for HN and the drive to succeed was the following quotation from an earlier article on her life, where the author so kindly informed her that she was no longer the "youngest MCP in the world":
“This is the first time I’ve seen this story. But I must say that I’m really happy to have read it. This is exactly what I had been wishing for ever since I got to bring laurels for my country. I am very glad to see that people are following what I did and have succeeded in beating me. I don’t know whether you’ve heard or not but a boy, named Bilal, from Gujranwala in Pakistan also became a Microsoft Certified Professional at the age of nine. I would say that the other youngsters should follow suit, thereby convincing the people to take us kids seriously. Our generation is very talented and so should be promoted.”[1]
A lot of people are brought here by the will to do Something Great, so much so that we get caught up in whether or not credit is given rightly, whether we'll get it, whether the whole world of doing Great Things is fair (it's not). It was this perspective of humility in the face of eventually being passed up, which is so rare in externally validated precocious children, that I found inspiring.
Thank you for this. We are celebrating the life / lamenting the death of the person to happened to accomplish something notable, not the point-accomplishment itself (which will be duplicated/eclipsed).
She had class and a sense of perspective well beyond her years, and which many people fail to achieve over much longer lives.
What's most important about her was not her professional certification. When others younger than her got certified, instead of seeing competition, she saw company. Of the grants she received, she donated a computer lab to a girls school. She was very mature and articulate. I may disagree with her tastes in programming languages and operating systems, but I can recognize a great person when I see one.
"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."
Meditating on shyness as a kind of fear
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
They are naming their IT Parks after her. That is absurd and completely illogical.
I guess Pakistani will soon include her doings and sayings in their Computer Science courses.
Did you ever heard about what they did with Abdus Salam?
and motivating your kids to do MCP is nonsense? yea she was great but still i think she dont worth to have things named after her. It would be better if they promote real giants (Alan Turing, Dennis Ritchie etc), most of Pakistanis are unaware of them. They think computer science is just Microsoft and Bill gates.
I'm from India. Abdus Salam was MY hero while growing up in the 80s. I kind of understand the weird religio-politics in Pakistan, which seems to have led to Dr.Salam being marginalized.
I'm starting to see where you are coming from, but I really think its OK to celebrate this girl's success and recognition.
Considering the amount of bashing going on in this thread, I must suppose everyone saying it is no big deal has done at least the same - ie Microsoft certification at that age [or younger], meeting up with Bill Gates, and sharing her mature outlook on life.
I mean, it the least we can expect from a hacker. Really, it must not be a big deal because it is so common.
Oh, wait, I think it's not :-) And the bashers just think they could have done the same at her age, in a similar situation. But she did, while they think they could have done it.
Ideas are cheap, implementation matter -and she did it. Saying that she has not yet created some major piece of software is acceptable - the article may not have gotten the perfect title. But considering the age at which she died, odds are she would have followed her promising way and done something really good.
But wait- she already managed to have a computer lab set up in her village. Something everyone here must also have done at her age.
Nothing to see - just spoiled brats expressing jealousy.
Firstly,I think the real reason why the girl became a media celebrity was not her Microsoft exam credentials or programming ability. It was that she came out as a really smart, intelligent,sweet, eloquent and mature person in every interview she gave after hitting the headlines for being invited by Bill Gates. I wish some of these interviews had subtitles so you could have a better understanding of what I mean. For example when asked(at the age of nine years)what her really outstanding achievement was, she replied that it was her ability to gift a computer lab to a girls school of her native village(after winning awards and grants etc). When asked what she wanted to do next, she said she would like to start "digicon" valley in Pakistan like silicon valley in US. And may more like that.
Secondly, she didn't belong to elite class at all. Her father is a retired Army officer, which means essentially middle class. She was transferred to a better/elite School only after becoming a celebrity.
"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."
Pretty close to my motto: "What Would You Do If You Were Not Afraid?".
Taken from "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Dr. Spencer Johnsson.
I'm a long-time HN member and I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Probably she wasn't a prodigy, also probably she wasn't a genius. Though she had every possibly trait that must have made her a genius later in her life.
Still, she was very intelligent, very sweet and a very caring kid. I met her and also her dad around 2005.
Also, she came from a very humble background and when I met her, her father was travelling with her using public transport (I know this because I did drop her and her father few times).
That having been said, given where she came from, she did few things in her 16 years of life that I know may people cannot. RIP.
The thread because this is one of the most hateful and ugly threads I've ever seen on HN. A thread like this would be literally unthinkable a year or more ago, and now I'm not even surprised it is here.
The story because it is about the death of a person that could easily be a role model for a large number of young children, but females especially in third world - and other - countries.
Those writing from their comfy first world lives that feel the need to point out how 'privileged' this girl was and belittle her achievements have to stop and think - excellent advice from elsewhere in this thread - before they continue to write.
The internet has a long memory. Being insensitive to the death of any child makes you look ugly, stupid and negative in ways that I find hard to describe.
Whatever your motivation, jealousy, a general misunderstanding of the station of women in many third world countries or any other thing that might have prompted you to write what you wrote here: Let me tell you straight from the heart that I think this girl was everything you in particular should aspire to be.
Smart, articulate, compassionate and gifted. The fact that she may or may not have been a member of a family of some standing in Pakistan does not diminish her achievements.
More often than not those that are born into positions of wealth or with other so called advantages squander their fortunes and end up with less than their parents left them with. That's an all too common story.
This girl took what little life she had and grasped it with both hands, then made the best of it. I hope that when my time comes I'll be able to say I did the same.
Pretty much did the same thing myself (stopped feeling good about commenting on anything). Her drive and humble demeanor were evident from the interviews she gave. Her death is a loss.
Death in general is a loss. I know that this view is a bit simple-minded, but I believe that everyone has a part to play in the world and it is unfortunate that her part stops here. On the positive side, I hope that her life inspired others so that she may live on in them.
> The thread because this is one of the most hateful and ugly threads I've ever seen on HN. A thread like this would be literally unthinkable a year or more ago, and now I'm not even surprised it is here.
I agree with you on this point a thousand times. What is going on with this community? In general I like HN, but there's a real trend brewing when it comes to gender-related articles. And it's not pretty.
HN regularly churns out some of the most biased, vitriolic and short-sighted commentary when it comes to women that I've ever seen in any online community.
Question is, what can we do to counteract it?
[EDIT: as expected, I'm being downvoted. Good riddance, HN.]
>HN regularly churns out some of the most biased, vitriolic and short-sighted commentary when it comes to women that I've ever seen in any online community.
I really don't see that at all. There might be some implied sexism, and perhaps occasionally overt sexism, but it's nothing like what you see on other parts of the Internet. I've seldom read a top-rated comment on HN and thought, "wow, that's really sexist." Sure, they exist at the bottom of the page, but there isn't much we can do about that.
Do you have a discussion in mind that makes you feel that way? I'd like to see an example of what you consider "biased, vitriolic, and short-sighted commentary when it comes to women."
In general I like HN, but there's a real trend brewing when it comes to gender-related articles. And it's not pretty.
I didn't notice any gender-related comments on this article (I'm late to the party, so maybe I missed some that were higher up earlier), but HN does tend to be a place where people tend to post statements of disagreement far more often than they agree with whatever is posted. I'm certainly guilty of this myself on many (most?) occasions.
To some extent this is good and fosters a spirit of healthy debate, but in this case, it's out of place. This is an extremely sad event, and we don't need to be picking apart this girl's achievements while we should be mourning her passing, whatever her gender may be. Whether or not a Microsoft certification is a fantastic achievement at whatever age, this girl represents all the qualities that we should be encouraging in young people everywhere, and it's horrifying to see people try to diminish that.
It's always a tragedy when a 16 year old dies; it's even more upsetting when they were on such a promising trajectory. We should be sad about this without reservation, not questioning whether her path was provably remarkable enough to be worth talking about.
I feel really sorry for her parents. However your sympathy stems from ignorance of the Indian sub-continent. Middle class kids in India, and I assume Pakistan have the opposite problem of what you say. They are pressured into achieving academic success come what may. The Indian IITs select .5% of the applicants. Delhi university sometimes rejects applicants getting 98% in school because there are many who get even more. Many of them go through multiple "coaching/tuition" classes in addition to going to school. Celebrating someone for obtaining an MCP certificate in addition to grueling coursework actually has a negative effect on already over-burdened kids.
I always get yelled at by my parents because I do a lot of computer programming instead of studying.
There's minimal encouragement in this society and I've seen parents pushing kids to get into CS because it pays. Environment has lot to do in making a "genius". And maybe that's why we have crappy programmers here, in India, and the deviants are pulled into the stereotype.
Assuming Pakistan is similar to India, this girl programming at such a young age is definitely a great deal. I don't think people in the first world nations understand this.
HN is a community, so this site is mostly about communication between humans, and empathy is an important part of that. People telling that it is not a big deal, and that the story is hyped, are I think jealous of not having been featured in the same way. It's the media, so things usually get a bit distorted. But then we have stories about panda bears dying that make headlines as well.
Even if you were a nine year old girl in Pakistan having written something that people here would recognize as valuable, something like writing a url parsing module in node.js, would you post a comment questioning her achievements? Think back when you were nine, wouldn't you have loved to hear about her? I remember that when I was nine and starting programming, I had heard a terrible hard time grasping simple BASIC programs. I went on to become a fairly capable developer, and event got my share of overblown headlines at 16. Nothing bugs me about a girl getting the same, and being so incredibly much wiser and inspirational than I was. Writing a calculator in C# at 9, studying for an exam that adults take, and then being incredibly intelligent and sensible about it is a big achievement.
There are all these threads about CS education, codeacademy, etc... on here. Well that is what they are all about.
What bothers me even more is people going all free speech when someone is questioning their post. Seriously? In their place, I would start questioning what compelled me to write such a post, and why this story caught my interest so much as to write a comment saying that earning an MCP is not worth mentioning.
"Whatever your motivation, jealousy, a general misunderstanding of the
station of women in many third world countries or any other thing that
might have prompted you to write what you wrote here: Let me tell you
straight from the heart that I think this girl was everything you in
particular should aspire to be."
HN is going to be the typical IT community: big egos fighting against
each other to show off their smartness.
If now a young girl is called a genius, then they can't resist to nitpick,
because they feel overlooked in their megalomania, they should deserve
this title.
Geeks, and I am guilty of that myself, often miss the greater point and discuss endlessly increasingly narrow aspects of much larger issues. It's within our nature to do it.
But that doesn't mean we can't understand this drive to discuss the details, fight our little demons, and raise our heads to look at the forest instead of the trees.
This girl, in her short life, accomplished more than many of us ever will. Her loss at this age is tragic, but even more tragic is the loss of what she would have become. We need more people like her.
Totally shocked that a community full of Aspies is having a hard time mustering sympathy for this girl and instead have to pedantically inform the Internet that that's not really programming and what's the big deal anyway I did this when I was 12 in between stimming sessions and telling my parents every species of dinosaur.
I have heard a few interviews of her when she was 11. In her native language URDU. AND I must tell you that she is the most Wisest girl of her age that I have ever known. She is wiser than most 25 year olds. And her personality was truely fun and energizing.
130 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 210 ms ] threadIt could be the same things many of us did when we were kids. But you should listen to it; I can't find the right words to tell you how I felt.
A child who can teach us, if we are willing to listen.
Edit: I have some reservations about saying that though; I work with Pakistani designers and programmers, normal people, mostly not even well educated (just a bit) with just enough money to have bought a computer and learn some stuff. And they made products, sites, money just out of nothing like we would do here. So in that regard I have come to know at least some Pakistani as people who, despite their culture, mentors (and general lack there of), peers (and lack there of) and without the press, certification, education and wealthy family who took more or less the same path as 'we' westerners would. There are exceptions to most rules and I would think she would be that.
I started programming when I was 8, I know a lot of people that started meddling around with computer around the same age, and I was born a decade before her which, in computer years, is like a century. Everything programming related was a hundred times more difficult to accomplish than it is now - I wrote assembly on a C64, because that's all my poor family could afford, with nothing more than a printsheet of the opcodes. And no internet, keep that in mind. And I won't say I'm a prodigy because of that.
I am also an MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional) and I can tell you that the exam was nothing but difficult - basically, it had nothing to do with actual programming and more with knowing what checkbox to flag. I studied for it the evening before the test.
I've seen so many stories like this, most of them not as tragic and not as heartwarming. For example, a heir of a very wealth family that I know has been featured in at least 10 Italian newspapers as "the new Mark Zuckerberg" or "the 20 years-old startupper" or "the genius behind <his startup>", all because his family has deep ties with the editors.
That has taught me never to believe a thing of what I read on something even vaguely institutionalized.
Not that this applies to you, but at what age do people learn empathy and sensitivity?
On a personal level, I am deeply sorry for her death. Given time, she might have become a great programmer.
On a more general level, when I see something like this on the news, I can't help but ask myself why exactly somebody has written an article about this particular person. In this case, it doesn't seem to me that she was the prodigy they're talking about. A smart kid with a will to improve herself? Certainly. But think about the context - she came from a very rich Pakistani family. What would you think, as a 16 year old boy from Pakistan, coming from a poor family and working your bones off to make a living, coding at night, of this story? Because, you know, it's very likely that there's somebody like the boy in question in Pakistan.
Scope mixing is the bane of modern communication. You can't use empathy as an excuse to talk about anything. This personal tragedy should have remained personal, not brought up on the news. Just my humble opinion.
Yes, elitist families have more opportunities than the rest, but counter-intuitively given the feudal elite culture of Pakistan, the rich are often devoid of ambition and simply join family businesses. Girls, especially, are raised with no other ambition than to get married.
I think for this girl to have such greater ambitions, despite the rampant chauvinistic expectations of her society, despite a country where everyone (including the rich) have 5-10 hrs of electricity/gas/water a day, despite living in a country in political upheaval, is pretty exemplary. And her talent, as such, is impressive in context.
andreadallera, here's the author's email address todd@geekwire.com, enjoy petitioning him for your own digital ink noting and praising your deep feelings of self worth -- those being more important than the death of a child.
I remembered getting about 80 emails from potential customers, asking my parents for their credit cards/money in order to acquire some merchandise and a domain name, and them completely freaking out (because of all the "credit cards + internet = FRAUD!" adverts at the time).
So thankful the internet has progressed into what it is now.
Let's see if a similar article is written up about your achievements when you pass away.
Thanks for the insight, though!
Whoa, easy. I have expressed my opinion and I have backed it up well I think. No hate for the poor girl, that's just terrible that somebody 16 years old have to die, no matter his or her accomplishments.
On the other hand, what accomplishments are we talking about here? Seriously, I'm really sorry for the poor girl, I really am, but still I can't see the accomplishment she's made.
And, honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about what people will write about me when I'm dead.
I don't get this angry when commenting here but the disgusting lack of empathy continually expressed on HN really, really gets to me. If you truly felt sorry for the girl, for her family, considered her family's pride for what she accomplished not only for herself but possibly for other kids in Pakistan, then you wouldn't feel the need to point out any of what you've stated.
I read the article and found it quite inspirational that a girl her age had so much motivation. Most kids at the age of 9 are playing their Wii's and watching early-morning reruns of Power Rangers. Her achievements go beyond technical certification.
But it's alright. Let's be champions of truth and justice at the sacrifice of appreciation and empathy. It'd be the hacker thing to do, anyway. It's happened with Dropbox, AirBnB, Steve Jobs, etc, already; so one more added to the list is a drop in the bucket.
Empathy should have nothing to do with your ability to evaluate facts. Empathy has an evil cousin, politically correctness. When politically correctness comes into play, you lose the game. You can't talk about anything with a straight perspective because, you know, somebody might get offended.
A 16 years old kid has died. That is a sad fact by itself. If she was the dumbest kid in Pakistan that wouldn't have made the fact less sad - only, you wouldn't have known it. If she was the poorest kid in Pakistan, same thing. Now, you know that a lot of 16 years old kids die in Pakistan? Most of them with family situations much worse than the one she was in? Do you feel empathy for them? I bet so. That's a good thing, a human thing to feel.
Now, as a thought experiment, let's say she wasn't a Pakistani little girl. Let's say she was a 16 years old boy coming from a rich US family. Even fat and greasy, to add to the image. Let's also add that this one didn't die - he's well off in his NY mansion eating Snickers all day. What would you have thought of the article? "16 years old kid from NY loves messing around with .NET". Wouldn't you have said: who cares? And rightly so?
Empathy drains perspective. Feeling empathy is the noblest thing in the world. At the same time, it doesn't mean that it should suspend your ability to evaluate situations. A big problem with our society and our communication channels is that they routinely employ this effect to steer public opinion where they want it to be. Don't be a sucker - be human, but use your brain.
Frankly, your original post was extremely light on facts. The only relevant fact that you presented is that you think the MCP exam is easy. You wrote:
> the hype is widely unjustified
You really don't have enough information. You're looking at a single fact without context, and saying that it's nothing special. For some context, check out khalidmbajwa's comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3467046
If a 16-year-old boy from the ghetto in the US became the world's youngest MCP at the age of 9, I would absolutely expect that to be news.
I would also think it was particularly unworldly to comment on the reporting of his untimely death, "well, I, as a white man with excellent access to education, got an MCP at the age of 20, and it wasn't all that hard".
The challenges that Arfa, or your hypothetical ghetto programmer, faced, were entirely different, and quite probably greater to the ones you faced, and they achieved a specific milestone a long time before you did. I genuinely can't imagine the mindset that attempts to minimize rather than celebrating their achievements.
> If a 16-year-old boy from the ghetto in the US became the world's youngest MCP at the age of 9, I would absolutely expect that to be news.
It's very, very likely that some 9 years old kid in the ghetto has produced something much more noteworthy than becoming an MCP. You would expect that to be in the news, but it isn't there.
> well, I, as a white man with excellent access to education, got an MCP at the age of 20, and it wasn't all that hard
What I was trying to say is: think that you are a poor Pakistani little kid, working your ass off between work/school hours on your lame old computer. What would you think of the celebrations here? Again, that Pakistani little kid most likely exists. Most likely, there's hundreds of them. You don't hear of them in the news.
May our paths never cross in real life.
That's not logic. That's jealousy.
If you read my comments, you'll see that I wasn't making a comparison between me and her. I was making a comparison between her and somebody who's accomplished what she did and much more without being born in a rich family, and is striving to get something to eat at the end of the day. There's plenty of them, why aren't they on the news?
How delightfully patronizing.
Your example fails in supporting your point. Your example person could not be more different from Arfa.
Your character: Fat Boy who enjoys messing with .NET is alive and enjoying his snickers bar.
Arfa: Young Intelligent, Motivated Girl Concretely acting in fulfilling her goals and bettering her environment dies at 16.
It does not matter her gender, age or privilege. Her outlook, her willingness to act in perusing her goals and enrichment - in spite of her "silver spoon" - puts her ahead of a lot of people. Do not underestimate the power of taking things for granted.
We agree that her early death is tragic. But is it fair that so many other people also die and no one notices? No it is not fair. I agree. But the reality of the matter is that attention is a scarce resource and will always be. Now, If I had somehow heard about the death of your rich fat kid from NYC then I would certainly feel empathy for the parents and the early loss. But the reality is, a random person hearing of that event is not a likely scenario. Most news outlets would not be interested.
Many people, some more technically accomplished than Arfa will not get similar coverage. But technical accomplishment is not the sole determinant of value as a person or worth in attention units. If you look at how we price people's worth in attention you will notice that it is only loosely correlated with the value of the labor they put into improving themselves and more correlated with how much demand for their attention they can create.
As for Arfa's case she actually does stands up to scrutiny of the worth of her accomplishments. The real loss is not her current skill but the time derivative of it, the rate of increase, her potential. The fact that she had already made news, met Bill Gates, lack of greed, willingness to give back and the inspirational aspect of it all. Those add to make hers a very uncommon situation and hence worth covering by the media.
Her dying is a very sad event as is the case for nearly all deaths. But make no mistake, this coverage is not due to the empathy of the news outlets but a calculated cost value decision. Fair or not that is the reality of it and there is no gain in focusing on how many others are not covered instead giving more weight to the tragic fact of her loss. She has gotten to your ellipsoid of attention. That alone justifies the attention she is receiving, not an accounting of how easy it is to replicate her accomplishments. Such a stance is not much difference from holding a belief that I could make stackoverflow in a week.
Finally I completely disagree that empathy drains perspective. Empathy gives perspective. You underestimate the value of social and emotional intelligence, which are vital in getting people to work together and overcome difficulties. Empathy is exactly trying to get someone's perspective and then using that to your mutual advantages (or manipulate to get ahead). Intelligence in species is correlated with complexity of social groups. Some argue Neanderthals were more IQ intelligent than us - closer to our savants but we overcame them by being more able to work together and having a superior Collective Intelligence.
Empathy is not an enemy of rationality. See Higher order intentionality. I have a pet theory that the empathetic mind is a simulation based intelligence, dual to the calculation based intelligence commonly linked to I.Q. You can run simulations, or run outright calculations to get at the same answer. Some things are easier to calculate others easier to simulate. Both add perspective and neither has ordinality.
Feeling empathy and being sad for whatever reason is ok, but trying to project to other and decline them the right to ask the question or to make a statement in a respectful manner is not.
What is more disgusting is the millions of people who make massive contributions, but aren't mentioned.
While I appreciate your proselytizing suggestion that we change our entire moral and ethical framework based on what some random person on the internet wrote in anger and eschew logic and reason, I will bite my tongue whenever I please, thank you very much.
What disgusts me is the lack of tact and consideration of editors and maybe her parents - the first are ready to exploit the death of a 16 years old girl to make some uniques, the seconds (I really hope that's not the case) are ready to put their child on the cover for some advertising.
I have no clue why this is even on hacker news, let alone top story.
(This comment would be categorized as pedantic.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
Sorry but no. Again, I don't want to belittle her accomplishments - it's certainly a feat for any girl or boy her age to be even able to put a very simple application together, but she came from a very wealthy Pakistani family. Saying that she made it to Redmond out of her own ambition and drive is spitting in the face of all her not so privileged compatriots who are struggling to do the same.
EDIT: Actually never mind. This is only going to end up bad. You have your opinion and I have mine.
So let's not try to have a discussion about it? I've never understood that frame of mind.
For what it's worth, I'm getting the same vibe from you. Your first contribution to this thread was basically taking a big steaming dump over this young lady's accomplishments. Why would you do that? It didn't add anything to the discussion, and instead makes you look like a colossal jerk. If this were not HN, I'd think you were just plain trolling.
Yet he/she takes the effort to right that down? I love it when people take part in a discussion, then, when a reply is on it's way they say "let's not discuss this more". If it's not worth discussing why bother dropping such useless statements? Ever considering not enter the discussion in the first place? It's not rocket science.
__For what it's worth, I'm getting the same vibe from you. Your first contribution to this thread was basically taking a big steaming dump over this young lady's accomplishments. Why would you do that? It didn't add anything to the discussion, and instead makes you look like a colossal jerk. If this were not HN, I'd think you were just plain trolling.__ I strongly disagree. andreadallera didn't took 'a big steaming dump' over this young lady's achievements. He/she simply question them. I have no idea if this young lady accomplished much or not, but how is questioning the same as denying?
Because you realized you made a mistake by entering the discussion in the first place. It's like trying to argue evolution with a creationist who you don't know is a creationist when you start talking. You find out, and then you go "Oh man, this is gonna go nowhere fast. I'm off."
>He/she simply question them.
Common fucking decency would imply that a thread discussing the death of someone is not the proper place to question their accomplishments in life.
An MCP at 9 years old is a big deal. I know it might have been easy for some of you geniuses in here, but this girl was 9.
It's a fair objection, though rather emotionally contentious given the context.
This is precisely the point raised above, that this story is primarily about the opportunity provided by the family. But you are right, it's important to note that her family was evidently both wealthy and progressive.
Writing off her accomplishments due to privilege is unfair.
May I suggest, that if you disagree, reply with your rational opinion rather than playing the feelings/respect-the-death card along with your downvoting?
However I just noticed this quote from her, which is so much more remarkable for a 10-year old:
"If you want to do something big in your life, you must remember that shyness is only the mind," she said. "If you think shy, you act shy. If you think confident you act confident. Therefore never let shyness conquer your mind."
To me that's the amazing part of her story, and something she can teach others about forever.
If you're having trouble speaking well, the solution probably isn't to speak slower, but to learn over time how to speak better at-speed.
I vehemently disagree - some of my most respected people in life pause frequently while speaking, and will directly ask for a moment when questioned about something, to collect their thoughts. I give these people's words incredible weight in my life not just because I respect them as people, but knowing that what they're telling me is well considered instead of knee-jerk.
I think the social expectation of having an answer at the drop of a hat on anything is pretty unfortunate, and makes us all a little bit dumber.
I don't mean in a debate, or even being asked a question. I just mean having a conversation, small talk etc.
It certainly depends on the age and the personality of the receiver.
It's a terrible advice to give to a kid or a teenager, or to someone who is trying to overcome their lack of confidence.
"Think before you give an answer" is a much more sensitive and universal advice.
The biggest tribute you can make to someone's life, like hers, is to take a moment to reflect, heed their advice, and incorporate it into your own. That's the stuff they would most like to see.
It seems clear that she had emotional intelligence above and beyond analytical. That should be enough.
I feel terrible for her parents. Burying a child has to be the hardest thing in the world.
What did strike me as particularly relevant for HN and the drive to succeed was the following quotation from an earlier article on her life, where the author so kindly informed her that she was no longer the "youngest MCP in the world":
“This is the first time I’ve seen this story. But I must say that I’m really happy to have read it. This is exactly what I had been wishing for ever since I got to bring laurels for my country. I am very glad to see that people are following what I did and have succeeded in beating me. I don’t know whether you’ve heard or not but a boy, named Bilal, from Gujranwala in Pakistan also became a Microsoft Certified Professional at the age of nine. I would say that the other youngsters should follow suit, thereby convincing the people to take us kids seriously. Our generation is very talented and so should be promoted.”[1]
A lot of people are brought here by the will to do Something Great, so much so that we get caught up in whether or not credit is given rightly, whether we'll get it, whether the whole world of doing Great Things is fair (it's not). It was this perspective of humility in the face of eventually being passed up, which is so rare in externally validated precocious children, that I found inspiring.
[1] http://www.geekwire.com/2011/arfa
She had class and a sense of perspective well beyond her years, and which many people fail to achieve over much longer lives.
What a great quote, too. She seemed to have a great outlook. Rest in Peace.
What's most important about her was not her professional certification. When others younger than her got certified, instead of seeing competition, she saw company. Of the grants she received, she donated a computer lab to a girls school. She was very mature and articulate. I may disagree with her tastes in programming languages and operating systems, but I can recognize a great person when I see one.
http://www.doitmotherfucker.com/
Meditating on shyness as a kind of fear
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
[1]http://digg.com/newsbar/Technology/lahore_i_t_park_now_named...
[2]http://tribune.com.pk/story/321964/k/
If other Pakistani kids are motivated and inspired by her life I think its worth the renaming, adulation etc.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/21/salaam-abdus-salam.html
I'm starting to see where you are coming from, but I really think its OK to celebrate this girl's success and recognition.
Someone explain the bile and hatred in this thread to me. I don't get it.
For a 9 year old female in Pakistan? More so.
For a 9 year old female in Pakistan with an outlook on life that is more mature than some 20 year olds?
I'm having trouble coming up with reasons that this wasn't a very big deal.
Frankly speaking i have more respect for that Boy http://launchpad.net/~bilalakhtar than her.At least he can program.
I mean, it the least we can expect from a hacker. Really, it must not be a big deal because it is so common.
Oh, wait, I think it's not :-) And the bashers just think they could have done the same at her age, in a similar situation. But she did, while they think they could have done it.
Ideas are cheap, implementation matter -and she did it. Saying that she has not yet created some major piece of software is acceptable - the article may not have gotten the perfect title. But considering the age at which she died, odds are she would have followed her promising way and done something really good.
But wait- she already managed to have a computer lab set up in her village. Something everyone here must also have done at her age.
Nothing to see - just spoiled brats expressing jealousy.
Secondly, she didn't belong to elite class at all. Her father is a retired Army officer, which means essentially middle class. She was transferred to a better/elite School only after becoming a celebrity.
Here is one interview which is entirely in English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCUbRsab6iQ&feature=relat...
Pretty close to my motto: "What Would You Do If You Were Not Afraid?".
Taken from "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Dr. Spencer Johnsson.
Still, she was very intelligent, very sweet and a very caring kid. I met her and also her dad around 2005.
Also, she came from a very humble background and when I met her, her father was travelling with her using public transport (I know this because I did drop her and her father few times).
That having been said, given where she came from, she did few things in her 16 years of life that I know may people cannot. RIP.
The thread because this is one of the most hateful and ugly threads I've ever seen on HN. A thread like this would be literally unthinkable a year or more ago, and now I'm not even surprised it is here.
The story because it is about the death of a person that could easily be a role model for a large number of young children, but females especially in third world - and other - countries.
Those writing from their comfy first world lives that feel the need to point out how 'privileged' this girl was and belittle her achievements have to stop and think - excellent advice from elsewhere in this thread - before they continue to write.
The internet has a long memory. Being insensitive to the death of any child makes you look ugly, stupid and negative in ways that I find hard to describe.
Whatever your motivation, jealousy, a general misunderstanding of the station of women in many third world countries or any other thing that might have prompted you to write what you wrote here: Let me tell you straight from the heart that I think this girl was everything you in particular should aspire to be.
Smart, articulate, compassionate and gifted. The fact that she may or may not have been a member of a family of some standing in Pakistan does not diminish her achievements.
More often than not those that are born into positions of wealth or with other so called advantages squander their fortunes and end up with less than their parents left them with. That's an all too common story.
This girl took what little life she had and grasped it with both hands, then made the best of it. I hope that when my time comes I'll be able to say I did the same.
Any child driven enough to do all this at a young age would have accomplished much more down the road.
This is one of those negative sum situations where we all loose.
I agree with you on this point a thousand times. What is going on with this community? In general I like HN, but there's a real trend brewing when it comes to gender-related articles. And it's not pretty.
HN regularly churns out some of the most biased, vitriolic and short-sighted commentary when it comes to women that I've ever seen in any online community.
Question is, what can we do to counteract it?
[EDIT: as expected, I'm being downvoted. Good riddance, HN.]
I really don't see that at all. There might be some implied sexism, and perhaps occasionally overt sexism, but it's nothing like what you see on other parts of the Internet. I've seldom read a top-rated comment on HN and thought, "wow, that's really sexist." Sure, they exist at the bottom of the page, but there isn't much we can do about that.
Do you have a discussion in mind that makes you feel that way? I'd like to see an example of what you consider "biased, vitriolic, and short-sighted commentary when it comes to women."
I didn't notice any gender-related comments on this article (I'm late to the party, so maybe I missed some that were higher up earlier), but HN does tend to be a place where people tend to post statements of disagreement far more often than they agree with whatever is posted. I'm certainly guilty of this myself on many (most?) occasions.
To some extent this is good and fosters a spirit of healthy debate, but in this case, it's out of place. This is an extremely sad event, and we don't need to be picking apart this girl's achievements while we should be mourning her passing, whatever her gender may be. Whether or not a Microsoft certification is a fantastic achievement at whatever age, this girl represents all the qualities that we should be encouraging in young people everywhere, and it's horrifying to see people try to diminish that.
It's always a tragedy when a 16 year old dies; it's even more upsetting when they were on such a promising trajectory. We should be sad about this without reservation, not questioning whether her path was provably remarkable enough to be worth talking about.
I always get yelled at by my parents because I do a lot of computer programming instead of studying.
There's minimal encouragement in this society and I've seen parents pushing kids to get into CS because it pays. Environment has lot to do in making a "genius". And maybe that's why we have crappy programmers here, in India, and the deviants are pulled into the stereotype.
Assuming Pakistan is similar to India, this girl programming at such a young age is definitely a great deal. I don't think people in the first world nations understand this.
Even if you were a nine year old girl in Pakistan having written something that people here would recognize as valuable, something like writing a url parsing module in node.js, would you post a comment questioning her achievements? Think back when you were nine, wouldn't you have loved to hear about her? I remember that when I was nine and starting programming, I had heard a terrible hard time grasping simple BASIC programs. I went on to become a fairly capable developer, and event got my share of overblown headlines at 16. Nothing bugs me about a girl getting the same, and being so incredibly much wiser and inspirational than I was. Writing a calculator in C# at 9, studying for an exam that adults take, and then being incredibly intelligent and sensible about it is a big achievement.
There are all these threads about CS education, codeacademy, etc... on here. Well that is what they are all about.
What bothers me even more is people going all free speech when someone is questioning their post. Seriously? In their place, I would start questioning what compelled me to write such a post, and why this story caught my interest so much as to write a comment saying that earning an MCP is not worth mentioning.
HN is going to be the typical IT community: big egos fighting against each other to show off their smartness.
If now a young girl is called a genius, then they can't resist to nitpick, because they feel overlooked in their megalomania, they should deserve this title.
But that doesn't mean we can't understand this drive to discuss the details, fight our little demons, and raise our heads to look at the forest instead of the trees.
This girl, in her short life, accomplished more than many of us ever will. Her loss at this age is tragic, but even more tragic is the loss of what she would have become. We need more people like her.