This is a red herring in my eyes. I really can't see what everybody else think they are seeing, a crow having fun sliding down the slopes on his newly invented snowboard. I see a crow trying to open the great-smelling lid of a jar to get to the food "inside", having chosen a really lousy location for this activity. The crow is stupid for trying to open an object that is not a container, and stupid for choosing the ridge of a roof to do this. And above all, it is visibly frustrated with the results of it's own stupidity. It's not having fun, it's hungry as hell and can't get to the food it thinks is inside the lid.
UPDATE just to clarify what I'm saying: I'm not questioning the intelligence of crows, I'm questioning the interpretation of this video. There could be crows playing chess and appearing on radio talk shows and I would still argue that this bird is just trying to find food and being stupid in it's choices doing so.
He's mostly standing on the lid picking at it, which is exactly how crows eat. Why on earth would you pick at your snowboard if you were busy having fun in the slopes?
I've seen crows heaving fun earlier. In the mountains I saw two crows hovering on the strong air current (without flapping their wings) just half a meter above the sloped ground cawing loudly. All this for significant period of time for no apparent reason other than just to enjoy themselves.
This one also looks like he's having fun. I don't understand why using lid as a sled is so unbelievable. Some dogs use skateboards to have fun.
It's not unbelievable at all. I think animals can have loads of fun and crows are awesome. But in this video I see a hungry poor bird, desperate to find some food. It has nothing to do with if crows are intelligent or can have fun, I'm talking about the video.
The play of corvids (crows, magpies, ravens, etc.) is pretty well documented. They seem to like sliding or rolling down snowy slopes. It could be some way of bathing themselves but surely just plunging into snow would be more effective. It's also common to see them using twigs as tools. Put it all together and it seems plausible to me that one of them could have learned to snowboard.
I agree it's important to remember that the bird has a mind separated from ours by millions of years. But, at times like this, I like to recall this story about Chinese philosopher Chuang Tzu.
1. The crow stands on the lid as soon as it puts it down
2. Sometimes the crow waits on the lid
3. The crow slides down with the lid instead of flying off of it
4. The crow flies back to the same spot
5. We already know that crows are rather intelligent
All five points would also be true in the case he's trying to find food and being frustrated with not getting any. And missing in your list is "6. The crow is spending most of it's energy picking at the lid." which is not explained by the theory that it is just spending a day in the slopes.
Nah, don't you think crows know a little better than to expect food to come out of a flat lid (with no container)? If you saw a monkey doing the same, would you think it was looking for food? Why get on the lid and wait, if you're looking for food? Why fly back to the top, if you're looking for food? Why slide down with the lid? etc. I would expect the crow to take other actions, if it were frustrated & looking for food.
The crow picks at the lid, possibly to cause a stir to slide further down, but I don't presume that far. There are many reasons for picking at things, if you're a crow.
Also when lid got stuck in the snow (at the end of the second good slide) crow could peck it for as long as he liked. If he wanted to get something out of the lid he would continue to do it not fly again to the top.
I think the pecking only purpose is to make the lid slide down. Apart from that pecking is the same for him as the touch is for us. We tend to move our hands and fingers a lot to improve our sense of touch when we operate an object.
He flies to the top because he needs something hard under the lid, not the soft snow.
After two thirds of the video the crow figures out that by having one leg on the "ground" the jar won't slide down when he picks and pulls at it, then spending the last third of the video in this position.
"Why on earth would you pick at your snowboard if you were busy having fun in the slopes?"
Well, I could say that's because it wants the snowboard to keep sliding, although he doesn't understand why it has stopped on _white terrain_ (it shold slide you know?). So he goes back to where it knows it can slide down again.
I think it's the same when it went from one roof side back to the other.
I'm always startled when I see speculation or surprise that animals exhibit "human" behavior as though they're not just animated vegetables; for fuck sake, yes, they're sentient beings and experience all the same things we do(!). They're just pretty stupid. ;-)
I believe animals can "experience being killed" and justify my eating of them mostly by the fact that eating them increases my productivity which helps me work more optimally towards reducing the suffering of other sentient beings. Also, I am somewhat selfish.
Animals can not only experience being killed, there are documented cases where intelligent animals like orcas and dolphins have made and carried out a decision to commit suicide.
Humans in general even justify the killing of humans in special situations, who obviously are capable of experiencing being killed. It's eating the remains that's repulsive in the case of more intelligent species like humans, dolphins or dogs, isn't it?
I'm ok with killing humans as part of a justified war, but I wouldn't be ok with death camps (or slaughter houses) for humans who had done nothing wrong, regardless of whether they were being eaten.
Is that even disputed, that animals can "experience being killed"? I don't doubt there are sentient animals, other than humans. For example dogs, crows, dolphins, elephants, probably tons of other. Once animal can predict future and react to it, he can't help but be sentient - otherwise how could he know what part of the future he can change, and what part is the einvironment.
Killing them to eat is IMHO justified by the same reason tiger has the right to kill his prey. We're predators (ok, omnivores, but still - we eat meat).
"Human beings have a strong, strong, strong tendency that if we see an animal do something that's analogous to what we do, like use a tool or answer an arithmetic question, we assume that the animal is doing it and understands the situation in the same way we do," he said. "And sometimes that's true but more often it's false."
Those words do nothing but justify one's "animals are non-sentient" hat. I can say the same towards the actions of other individuals. "I have a strong tendency that if I see another human sledding, I assume that the human understands the situation in the same why I do." Why should I assume that another person understands a situation in the same way that I do, whereas a crow cannot? Because the person is of the same species as me? "Species" is just an artificial term that describes the ability to interbreed.
> Beause the person is of the same species as me? That's just an artificial term that describes the ability to interbreed.
The term also describes the biological similarity between the organisms, in this case, similar neural cortices that are vastly different from other animals.
A crow might be sentient, but you will never find it commenting on hacker news.
Biological similarity does not imply similarity of understanding. My understanding is also shaped by environment and knowledge as much as my genes.
You and I are similar genetically, but I cannot make any statement about your understanding of any activity (like sledding) as compared to mine, because we (or at least I) do not know how to compare "understanding" between two beings.
The crow's neural circuitry is different from yours or mine, but the "same" software can run in many different architectures.
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[ 6.7 ms ] story [ 112 ms ] threadUPDATE just to clarify what I'm saying: I'm not questioning the intelligence of crows, I'm questioning the interpretation of this video. There could be crows playing chess and appearing on radio talk shows and I would still argue that this bird is just trying to find food and being stupid in it's choices doing so.
He's mostly standing on the lid picking at it, which is exactly how crows eat. Why on earth would you pick at your snowboard if you were busy having fun in the slopes?
This one also looks like he's having fun. I don't understand why using lid as a sled is so unbelievable. Some dogs use skateboards to have fun.
[1] http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0808_020808_... (Crows use and figure out how to create tools.) [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html (Crows recognize human faces and communicate about it.)
I agree it's important to remember that the bird has a mind separated from ours by millions of years. But, at times like this, I like to recall this story about Chinese philosopher Chuang Tzu.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bchaney/ty/joy-of-fishes.htm
The crow picks at the lid, possibly to cause a stir to slide further down, but I don't presume that far. There are many reasons for picking at things, if you're a crow.
I think the pecking only purpose is to make the lid slide down. Apart from that pecking is the same for him as the touch is for us. We tend to move our hands and fingers a lot to improve our sense of touch when we operate an object.
After two thirds of the video the crow figures out that by having one leg on the "ground" the jar won't slide down when he picks and pulls at it, then spending the last third of the video in this position.
Well, I could say that's because it wants the snowboard to keep sliding, although he doesn't understand why it has stopped on _white terrain_ (it shold slide you know?). So he goes back to where it knows it can slide down again.
I think it's the same when it went from one roof side back to the other.
Humans in general even justify the killing of humans in special situations, who obviously are capable of experiencing being killed. It's eating the remains that's repulsive in the case of more intelligent species like humans, dolphins or dogs, isn't it?
or pigs
Killing them to eat is IMHO justified by the same reason tiger has the right to kill his prey. We're predators (ok, omnivores, but still - we eat meat).
Besides - healthy diet including meat is easy and delicious. Healthy diet without meat is not trivial, and not so delicious (at least for me).
Those words do nothing but justify one's "animals are non-sentient" hat. I can say the same towards the actions of other individuals. "I have a strong tendency that if I see another human sledding, I assume that the human understands the situation in the same why I do." Why should I assume that another person understands a situation in the same way that I do, whereas a crow cannot? Because the person is of the same species as me? "Species" is just an artificial term that describes the ability to interbreed.
The term also describes the biological similarity between the organisms, in this case, similar neural cortices that are vastly different from other animals.
A crow might be sentient, but you will never find it commenting on hacker news.
You and I are similar genetically, but I cannot make any statement about your understanding of any activity (like sledding) as compared to mine, because we (or at least I) do not know how to compare "understanding" between two beings.
The crow's neural circuitry is different from yours or mine, but the "same" software can run in many different architectures.
Never say never :)
Crows are very intelligent, do not make them angry, seriously, they will remember you.