There is a legend about the first Nizam of Hyderabad. Here is Narendra Luther's version:
"When the Nizam was returning to the Deccan, on one of his hunting expeditions, he lost his way. Thirsty and hungry, he approached a hermit for succour. All that the saint could offer him was dry, baked bread called kulcha, and plain water. The exhausted noble had his fill. The hermit counted the remaining loaves in his basket and said, My son, you have eaten seven loaves. Your family will rule for seven generations. God bless you."
The last actual ruling Nizam, Mir Osman Ali Khan, was parsimonious in his personal life and spent on public works instead. Sadly he could not quell the violent terrorist movement of the Razakars during the convulsions of Indian independence, and this led to both murders by the Razakars and a violent blowback from the Hindu majority, the government inquiries on the scale of the massacres are still classified to this day.
His grandson Mukarram Jah was the opposite and dilapidated his inheritance.
So I can only speak for Amritsari and Dogra/Kaladi Kulche but they are basically lighter than Naan and supposed to be more smokey (because they've been in the tandoor longer), and if it's a Kaladi Kulche, it's topped with Kaladi Paneer. Also, Kulche need to be pan fried.
The style of "Naan" I've eaten in the home country (which in hindsight may technically count as Shirmal) is much less smokey and harsh, and much heavier. The naan they serve in most Indian restaurants here in US/Canada is much lighter than home style naans and also not cooked as long in a tandoor - which is unsurprising because their profit margins are massive on Naan and Rice.
At least in Pahari regions, Kulche and Tandoori Roti tend to be the staple, not Naan.
Yea. I'm using the term loosely. Like the Naan which I'd have in my dad's village had egg, maida, dahi, and atta and would be put in a tandoor. I thought sheermal is the same except with Saffron and Sugar.
Thanks for taking the time to type that out! It's fascinating how many "bread type" things there are in the category, and how regionally specific details of each can be. I'll have to pay more attention and try options next time I'm out.
Intuitively, I think of "naan" as fluffier; with a more interesting shape (triangle, rather than the usual circle); and usually topped (if not stuffed) with some thoughtful sprinkling of garlic, herbs, etc.
In general, though, by the time you collect all the things that could be "kulcha" and all the things that could be "naan," you end up with a Venn diagram that has a pretty healthy overlap.
A lot depends on regional variations and individual chefs. In a restaurant situation in modern times, you'd generally expect "naan" to cover the usual breads that people want/expect, given the popularity of the word at this point, whereas "kulcha" is probably reserved for the chef's desire to do something a little more interesting (e.g., an elaborate stuffing) in bread that might also be cooked slightly differently. You can likely bank on the triangle/circle difference, but... you never know.
In the context of the myth, it likely underlines the simplicity and home-made nature of the bread, especially because of the note about the water. Kulcha can be made with fewer ingredients, if you imagine the simplest possible "kulcha" compared to the simplest possible "naan." So the vibe I got from the story is, "This saint lives such a simple and enlightened life that he doesn't even bother with the fancy fluffy restaurant breads; a simple home-made kulcha will do just fine."
TL;DR: It's complicated, and it's still tough these days to find a half-decent paratha.
The question seems partly "What is the difference in recipes?" and partly "How are these words currently used?"
In the American eastern seaboard, the closest we probably have is the continuum of cornbreads, where the same word can be drastically different from place to place.
But I guess that's to be expected for a dish that started with Native Americans, filtered through English, Irish, Scottish, and African cultures, and then met a wave of more modern ingredients.
The core need remains the same, but tastes and ways to get there vary!
> The question seems partly "What is the difference in recipes?" and partly "How are these words currently used?"
Good insight. Yeah, there are two different dimensions here.
> In the American eastern seaboard, the closest we probably have is the continuum of cornbreads, where the same word can be drastically different from place to place.
One important similarity all around: I'm usually up for just about any cornbread, naan, or kulcha. ;)
I researched this recently for a dinner party. Naan is usually whole wheat and leavened with yogurt or yeast. Kulcha is made with refined white flour and if leavened, usually with sodium bicarbonate. However, you can find plenty of recipes that break these categories.
It seems like the ultimate decision is whether someone eats it and says "That isn't (naan|kulcha|other)." Which probably depends on how their family made it, as much as any recipe.
> His father sued him for a greater share of the family wealth. His aunt sued him. Eventually the ranks of litigants would swell to several thousand descendants of the seven previous nizams. Then, in 1971, the Indian government cut off the nizam’s allowance and abolished the royal court’s titles.
That combination of events would be tough to get through! Family legal squabbles are rough, emotionally and financially.
A gradual weaning or reform of government funding would have probably been successful in the long run.
It's fascinating when people with historical fortunes, titles, and rigid social expectations of them suddenly have the latter two disappear. Usually followed by the former. Most of my enjoyment of Downton Abbey was of the unraveling and restitching of the social contact.
Warm ending to this story that he had the humility to ask his ex-wife (Princess Esra) to attempt to preserve and share the hereditary legacy. And that she apparently did an extremely capable job. Kudos!
Preserving and presenting history, good, bad, or ugly, is important.
Recording history is still worth the effort. It would be great if everybody could be easily remebered. With modern social media this may be closer to reality.
It’s always weird to me that we’re living in the only time in thousands of years where we don’t have royalty in most societies. You could have been born in any place in any time since human civilization started and you would likely have some form of nobility ruling over you.
Oh, we do have royalty these days too. But think something on the lines of Serene Doges and Italian Signorias of the Renaissance era. Private citizens amassing enough wealth and power to control governments not only during their lifetimes, but the lifetimes of their children as well, not unlike Sforza in Milan or the Medicis.
We still have a relatively small elite ruling over us, we just don't actually know who they are anymore. Whether or not that's progress is a matter of opinion I suppose.
FWIW, I first learned about radio and electronics from an ex-royal! When in the fourth grade I started taking apart radios and breaking them, my father took me, along with the broken radio, to the local radio repair place (that may have been the only one at the time in Ahmedabad, India). The owner was an old man of 70 or so. He taught me the very basic stuff and helped me build a crystal radio and soon I graduated to building fancier stuff! Everyone called him Bapu (father). Later on I learned he was a prince from a small princely state in the Western Gujarat. India forcibly merged all 500+ such principalities in the Union once it became independent. These princes had a "princely purse", a govt allowance, to maintain their status for a while but that ended in 1956. Bapu had a degree in radio and electronics from UK so he set up the repair shop which happened to be within the walking distance from my home. When I met him he had no royal airs; he was more like a kindly grandfather who had infinite patience for a skinny undisciplined but inquisitive kid!
Could someone help me see the ties to hacker/dev/startup culture here?
While I agree that this is news and it's a fascinating story, it feels like something more for Reddit than for HN. But that's probably my naïveté or dad-of-an-infant sleep deprivation.
Interesting story just doesn't seem like HN material. But please correct me if I'm wrong or help me see the connection
I like how every time this is brought up, Reddit is used as an example. But Reddit has far, far more interesting and nuanced discussions that includes many people at the top of their respective fields. Nobody noteworthy would do an AMA on HN, but they all do it on Reddit. A comment here or there doesn’t really move the needle on the over all trajectory.
HN is more of a midwit sort of place, where you don’t get the shitposters or the exceedingly brilliant because the band is so narrow and conformist that nobody wants to deal with being downvoted/removed over the most trivial things. And then when people find out just how wrong the audience here can be, as attested by actual professionals usually taking the top comment to correct the majority of, then you really just might as well not bother with HN at all and stick with Reddit for breadth and depth.
So yes, Reddit is probably the better place for this article, along with just about every other article posted here.
I meant to say that it’s common, and very amusing, to see top comments on HN coming in with, to paraphrase, “I work on the thing you’re all commenting on, and you’re very wrong.” I say amusing but it’s fairly fucking sad to see how often that happens. I work in tech hands-on across many domains and the shit that people spew here with apparently credible tones behind the words is worse than any mistake ChatGPT has made so far. If I can’t trust this place with tech, what the hell can I trust it with? Nothing personnel dang you can’t really control the misinformation at this scale.
As for what subreddits are worthwhile - I don’t follow any of them religiously, usually the good stuff is cross posted and even HN has its fair share of good Reddit links much to their chagrin lol. You can often start at the top of the list of popular subreddits as the good stuff is also often cross posted with attribution to the original subreddit. So pick what you’re into and go down the rabbit hole.
Comments written for optimizing votes from the consensus filter are boring, the top comments on reddit are almost always bland jokes or someone quoting the democratic party position on something totally uncritically. I can get all that from mainstream media but with better production values.
"I have the correct opinion™, please validate me with upvotes", "Can you believe that some people have the wrong opinion™ They are dumb!" over and over again gets old fast.
HN is like this, complete with people drumming it up by starting the comment off with “Look, folks” and then saying something completely fucking milquetoast about the subject matter.
Go to a post, nearly all the responses are deleted, hundreds of them, inbetween the deleted comments you find enthusiastic support for the current thing.
"I had to lock this post yall, too many people being crazy"
>But Reddit has far, far more interesting and nuanced discussions that includes many people at the top of their respective fields
Look, I don't even disagree with your overall comment on HN, but this is a complete joke. I can't tell if you are actually serious. Go to the front page of reddit now and point me to that nuanced discussion. Even AMAs are now outrage bait, with all the top comments/ questions being snarky stabs at the AMA guest.
Your comment is either only valid for very small subs, or you're a time traveler from 8 years ago.
(I've seen far more "celebrities" or experts pop on comment sections about themselves or their expertise here than on reddit. FWIW.
Not a traveler, but I have been on HN for almost 15 years now, so I’ve seen this play out far too often to ignore it. This shit can only fool the people who think they’ve discovered gold and are too committed to call it what it is: lipstick on a pig.
Whether or not the commenters on Reddit tend to shitpost AMAs doesn’t speak to the fact that AMAs occur there, and the people give long winded answers to questions and talk at length about things. Literally there are people there whose answers to each question is a blog post entry on HN.
Usually the reason why celebrities/experts pop on comment sections here is to correct others. Which again, is just sad that the community here is naive with misinformation and cargo culling.
HN has surprise AMAs instead of scheduled ones. A post will be talking about something and someone will start discussing it and then you realize you’re reading one of the original coders.
For a handful of programming discussions on HN that is true, but whenever HN starts touching categories which I have academic or professional experience - such as social sciences, business, devops, or cybersecurity - they become dumpster fire (AND I DARE YOU TELL ME DUNNING-KRUGER. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU).
I've also found certain subreddits now provide better value to discussions than HN at this point.
My front page of reddit is different from yours. If you only join garbage subs, of course you're going to see garbage threads on your home page. The question is, why do you do that to yourself?
Likewise, some threads on this site are garbage, too. It's easy enough to hide them and move on, though.
Scroll all the way down and click on Guidelines[0].
The first paragraph states:
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Periodically someone comes up with this kind of comment. If it's on the front page, it's because the community finds it interesting. And these kind of unusual but stimulating posts really are what makes HN interesting. I wouldn't read it if it were all about the latest Julia release and the latest startup.
It's really simple. HN is a place where like-minded people share things of interest. When people like a link, they upvote it. If they don't, they don't.
"HN material" is material HN members find interesting, not things you may or may not think are related to "startup culture" (if there's even such a thing).
I don't generally agree, but when I hear about the lives of members of Japan's royal family it does appear that you have something of a point. They are basically prisoners in a very gilded cage.
> "I love this place: miles and miles of open country and not a bloody Indian in sight," Mr. Jah said, as Mr. Hobday recalled to Mr. Zubrzycki.
I only know of these old nizams and rulers from portrayals as incompetent narcissistic despots in Indian popular literature and television shows. The reality it seems is not far from it.
54 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 110 ms ] thread"When the Nizam was returning to the Deccan, on one of his hunting expeditions, he lost his way. Thirsty and hungry, he approached a hermit for succour. All that the saint could offer him was dry, baked bread called kulcha, and plain water. The exhausted noble had his fill. The hermit counted the remaining loaves in his basket and said, My son, you have eaten seven loaves. Your family will rule for seven generations. God bless you."
The last actual ruling Nizam, Mir Osman Ali Khan, was parsimonious in his personal life and spent on public works instead. Sadly he could not quell the violent terrorist movement of the Razakars during the convulsions of Indian independence, and this led to both murders by the Razakars and a violent blowback from the Hindu majority, the government inquiries on the scale of the massacres are still classified to this day.
His grandson Mukarram Jah was the opposite and dilapidated his inheritance.
Although if I had to eat plain naan without any other side dishes…I might eat 7 too.
The style of "Naan" I've eaten in the home country (which in hindsight may technically count as Shirmal) is much less smokey and harsh, and much heavier. The naan they serve in most Indian restaurants here in US/Canada is much lighter than home style naans and also not cooked as long in a tandoor - which is unsurprising because their profit margins are massive on Naan and Rice.
At least in Pahari regions, Kulche and Tandoori Roti tend to be the staple, not Naan.
In general, though, by the time you collect all the things that could be "kulcha" and all the things that could be "naan," you end up with a Venn diagram that has a pretty healthy overlap.
A lot depends on regional variations and individual chefs. In a restaurant situation in modern times, you'd generally expect "naan" to cover the usual breads that people want/expect, given the popularity of the word at this point, whereas "kulcha" is probably reserved for the chef's desire to do something a little more interesting (e.g., an elaborate stuffing) in bread that might also be cooked slightly differently. You can likely bank on the triangle/circle difference, but... you never know.
In the context of the myth, it likely underlines the simplicity and home-made nature of the bread, especially because of the note about the water. Kulcha can be made with fewer ingredients, if you imagine the simplest possible "kulcha" compared to the simplest possible "naan." So the vibe I got from the story is, "This saint lives such a simple and enlightened life that he doesn't even bother with the fancy fluffy restaurant breads; a simple home-made kulcha will do just fine."
TL;DR: It's complicated, and it's still tough these days to find a half-decent paratha.
In the American eastern seaboard, the closest we probably have is the continuum of cornbreads, where the same word can be drastically different from place to place.
But I guess that's to be expected for a dish that started with Native Americans, filtered through English, Irish, Scottish, and African cultures, and then met a wave of more modern ingredients.
The core need remains the same, but tastes and ways to get there vary!
Good insight. Yeah, there are two different dimensions here.
> In the American eastern seaboard, the closest we probably have is the continuum of cornbreads, where the same word can be drastically different from place to place.
One important similarity all around: I'm usually up for just about any cornbread, naan, or kulcha. ;)
> His father sued him for a greater share of the family wealth. His aunt sued him. Eventually the ranks of litigants would swell to several thousand descendants of the seven previous nizams. Then, in 1971, the Indian government cut off the nizam’s allowance and abolished the royal court’s titles.
That combination of events would be tough to get through! Family legal squabbles are rough, emotionally and financially.
A gradual weaning or reform of government funding would have probably been successful in the long run.
It's fascinating when people with historical fortunes, titles, and rigid social expectations of them suddenly have the latter two disappear. Usually followed by the former. Most of my enjoyment of Downton Abbey was of the unraveling and restitching of the social contact.
Warm ending to this story that he had the humility to ask his ex-wife (Princess Esra) to attempt to preserve and share the hereditary legacy. And that she apparently did an extremely capable job. Kudos!
Preserving and presenting history, good, bad, or ugly, is important.
They didn’t own anything. It’s basically stolen off the backs of people. I have no love lost there or any grief at them being cut off.
While I agree that this is news and it's a fascinating story, it feels like something more for Reddit than for HN. But that's probably my naïveté or dad-of-an-infant sleep deprivation.
Interesting story just doesn't seem like HN material. But please correct me if I'm wrong or help me see the connection
There are many people here who are related to the culture and care.
I like how every time this is brought up, Reddit is used as an example. But Reddit has far, far more interesting and nuanced discussions that includes many people at the top of their respective fields. Nobody noteworthy would do an AMA on HN, but they all do it on Reddit. A comment here or there doesn’t really move the needle on the over all trajectory.
HN is more of a midwit sort of place, where you don’t get the shitposters or the exceedingly brilliant because the band is so narrow and conformist that nobody wants to deal with being downvoted/removed over the most trivial things. And then when people find out just how wrong the audience here can be, as attested by actual professionals usually taking the top comment to correct the majority of, then you really just might as well not bother with HN at all and stick with Reddit for breadth and depth.
So yes, Reddit is probably the better place for this article, along with just about every other article posted here.
Got a bit confused here, what is this sentence?
I agree that the band on HN is somewhat narrow, though I feel it is a distinctly different band from most other places which makes it worth visiting.
Any subreddits in particular you recommend for high quality discourse?
As for what subreddits are worthwhile - I don’t follow any of them religiously, usually the good stuff is cross posted and even HN has its fair share of good Reddit links much to their chagrin lol. You can often start at the top of the list of popular subreddits as the good stuff is also often cross posted with attribution to the original subreddit. So pick what you’re into and go down the rabbit hole.
"I have the correct opinion™, please validate me with upvotes", "Can you believe that some people have the wrong opinion™ They are dumb!" over and over again gets old fast.
Go to a post, nearly all the responses are deleted, hundreds of them, inbetween the deleted comments you find enthusiastic support for the current thing.
"I had to lock this post yall, too many people being crazy"
Look, I don't even disagree with your overall comment on HN, but this is a complete joke. I can't tell if you are actually serious. Go to the front page of reddit now and point me to that nuanced discussion. Even AMAs are now outrage bait, with all the top comments/ questions being snarky stabs at the AMA guest.
Your comment is either only valid for very small subs, or you're a time traveler from 8 years ago.
(I've seen far more "celebrities" or experts pop on comment sections about themselves or their expertise here than on reddit. FWIW.
Whether or not the commenters on Reddit tend to shitpost AMAs doesn’t speak to the fact that AMAs occur there, and the people give long winded answers to questions and talk at length about things. Literally there are people there whose answers to each question is a blog post entry on HN.
Usually the reason why celebrities/experts pop on comment sections here is to correct others. Which again, is just sad that the community here is naive with misinformation and cargo culling.
I've also found certain subreddits now provide better value to discussions than HN at this point.
- /r/AskHistorians
- ...
Ehm well I can't think of any more x)
Likewise, some threads on this site are garbage, too. It's easy enough to hide them and move on, though.
Well there's a sentence I didn't expect to read today.
This the first sentence of the HN rules. If you only want “hacking-related news” you’re going to have to tolerate some other bits on HN.
The first paragraph states:
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Note: emphasis added for dramatic effect.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
It's really simple. HN is a place where like-minded people share things of interest. When people like a link, they upvote it. If they don't, they don't.
"HN material" is material HN members find interesting, not things you may or may not think are related to "startup culture" (if there's even such a thing).
I only know of these old nizams and rulers from portrayals as incompetent narcissistic despots in Indian popular literature and television shows. The reality it seems is not far from it.
Good riddance.