I know of no significant scientific evidence showing that waiting for transition in adulthood in a supportive household causes any harm.
Transitioning at 18 or 21 should be ok afaik. If your child identifies so strongly with the idea of transitioning, they could at least do 2/3 years of dressing up as the other gender, changing their pronouns and name and see how they feel.
I’ve been trans identifying a lot of my life but decided in my adult life to move onto life as a drag performer and non binary.
Im not sure what would’ve happened to me had to gotten the hormones but I’m happy it wasn’t an option.
You can easily make problems in your life be problems of “oh well those would be solved if I was a woman”. They wouldn’t. The issues I had came from issues I had with myself and they healed over time with therapy. I got support from therapists alongside with the advice of “wait and see how you feel”. Turns out they mostly realised that I was placing problems into me being a man that were problems that I had in my own psyche. That was my conclusion.
What you feel as a kid / teenager shouldn’t really be taken as gospel IMO. A lot of life changes ahead of you.
As a trans woman I can tell you that waiting until post adolescence caused MAJOR harm - my body will never recover from the changes I got as a result.
You need to stop thinking you’re situation is the same as everyone.
I’m happy you didn’t feel the need to transition. You’re therefore not transgender therefore you do not have the right to speak for those of us that are.
>I’m happy you didn’t feel the need to transition. You’re therefore not transgender therefore you do not have the right to speak for those of us that are.
I think it's pretty clear from their post They're speaking from the perspective of a formerly trans person
> I know of no significant scientific evidence showing that waiting for transition in adulthood in a supportive household causes any harm.
There is one obvious harm: puberty.
If your kid is transitioning male-to-female, then if she doesn't get treatment, she will grow facial and body hair and have her voice deepen. If they are female-to-male, they will grow breasts. (This is not an exhaustive list.) Some trans people are fine with being obviously non-gender-conforming, but a lot of them aren't. I don't have a price chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that electrolysis and breast reductions are more expensive than a few years of hormones, and while voice training can help with their voice, there's only so much it can do.
This is true and I don’t have the answers. I think everyone should do their own journey. I wonder if there is evidence one way or another but I haven’t seen it.
The problem with this advice is it's tantamount to having a potion that kills some people and only gives others a bad tummy ache. You say, "Drink it and find out," and qualifying it with, "it's not so bad if you have family and friends to support you while your tummy aches."
There's not much evidence for anything about trans people since it's a very new phenomenon in the social consciousness, but you can be ruining someone's life by appealing to that scientific ignorance + your anecdata mixed in.
Just trust the latest collective consensus of psychologists and doctors, and encourage others to do the same. They're paid to know about this stuff and to onboard the enormous risk you are with your prescriptions in this thread.
>Just trust the latest collective consensus of psychologists and doctors, and encourage others to do the same. They're paid to know about this stuff and to onboard the enormous risk you are with your prescriptions in this thread.
That's interesting, I have the complete opposite position. Doctors and psychologists can give a informed guess at best. What you hear will vary wildly by the person you select.
I don't think it is practical to put the risk or responsibility on them. Ultimately it comes down to the patients and their parents who have to decide what they think is right and live with the consequences, good or bad.
Trans people or something similar is not a “new thing”. As a queer person and having read the history: every society seems to have had some form of trans population. Look into two spirits people.
Trans people have always existed. The way they are accepted or not accepted into societies fluctuates.
“Left untreated, gender dysphoria has any number of consequences, from self-harm to suicide.” ... There are no reliable studies showing this.
Yes, there are. It's clear that gender dysphoria kills kids every single year. It's like asking for peer-reviewed studies of parachutes.
It's Bari Weiss's rag. She makes a living provoking liberals.
I assume that the author is sincere, though that's more benefit of the doubt than I really ought to grant for a known liar and provocateur as Weiss. Still, granting it, I'm willing to believe that treating gender dysphoria is hard. I don't doubt that some people fail in their treatment, no matter what route they take.
I am not myself, and I know a great many people who are much happier after transitioning. I know of none who were harmed by it. That's anecdotal, but suffices for me to know that it's not an industry whose whistle needs blowing.
What's needed is continued work to understand what's going on with gender, and the best way to help people who believe gender identification is the source of their unhappiness. It won't be helped by provocateurs who have decided that everything I do is a bad thing and will use any deception, cherry-picking, or outright falsehood to prove it.
Supportive households are great and all, but none of that means anything when you’re in “the real world” where people just love to attack and bully you for being trans.
You’re going to be bullied for being trans everywhere anyway. That’s my kind of experience. If the meds can make that go away by transitioning early, yeah maybe.
Can kids make that decision ? I’m not sure.
I don’t want to invalidate anyone’s perspective or experience. I’m just not sure.
but wait in your parachute analogy a big % of parachutes would have to open and like cut the wearer or hurt them somehow. Deploy a parachute if you are falling from 30,000 feet and your other option is to SPLAT on the ground, sure. But how many kids are deploying a parachute but their problem has nothing to do with height free-falling and the ground about to splat them.
The situation is more like: you've heard anecdotes about people getting strangled by parachute cords or using parachutes when they're not falling from a plane and hurting themselves, so you're not sure if you should pull the parachute cord. Plus, you're only 99% sure you're falling from a plane; maybe this is a hallucination, or a movie. So maybe you should wait 'til you're at 3,000 feet to make sure you're really falling. Or maybe 500 feet, can't be too careful.
Meanwhile, based on the anecdotes mentioned previously, multiple states have proposed or passed bills banning all parachutes.
Whilst it’s all but a guarantee that there are some kids who are being over treated, the general premise about needing to treat kids at a young age is spot on.
I wasn’t even much past 3 years old before I knew “something” was wrong. Growing up in the early 1970’s though made any chance of knowing what it was damn near impossible.
It’s very true that for transgender people - especially male to females, preventing adolescence can be a lifesaver as they go down their journey. Transitioning once that’s kicked in and done its work makes life very very much harder for the individual.
My concern has been the race to the bottom here though - I’ve been very concerned with this desire to accept “self diagnosis” as everything. Even in my 20’s I still wasn’t sure if I was trans, or a cross-dresser. Turns out it was the former, but it took 2 years of intensive therapy to nail it down.
So yeah, we stand a chance to misdiagnose, but that’s not a reason to throw everything out either.
I know of some trans centers that are far less slack and take the process very seriously - however in life there are sadly people whose agenda means more than the patient - and yes there’s a risk of misdiagnosis as a result.
I don’t have an answer - but I do know we can’t NOT treat kids who may be trans. Part of the issue is also societal: even today there’s a major stigma around being trans - brought on mainly by the religious right, or the terfs.
I’ve been fully transitioned (inc. surgery) for well over 10 years now and I know I’m more relaxed and happy - but yes, there’s still the odd time where someone ‘reads’ me and attacks me as a result. That’s a fear I will always have to live with - that pathetic small minded people feel they have the moral right to make transgender people “less than”.
A child given the correct treatment is less likely to suffer this as an adult.
A child misdiagnosed is also going to have problems - true.
Yeah, I think part of the problem is that people put too much weight on diagnosis itself. It's not like a blood test that is definitive. Any diagnosis will always be speculative.
My thoughts on the matter came to a head after reading this article a couple days ago and my current thinking is that we're putting too much responsibility on the medical profession and policy.
At the end of the day, it should be the decision of the patients and parents. It is their responsibility to weigh the information available and make their best decision. It is also their responsibility to live with the consequences of their choices.
Very good question. Either she (born male now wants to be called she) is about to turn 13 and wants to avoid her body turning more male. OR, she was just convinced this is right for her and will regret this decision later. I feel it's like getting a tattoo and they make you wait until 18 for that!
You need to find out what (s)he is thinking AND how she got there (who has she been talking to)! You may need to ask her to talk to someone else trustworthy. I'd suggest an older male therapist. Meanwhile you need to probe friends & family to find out what they've been telling her as well. What is the origin story for this wish to be a girl?
While it's good to be skeptical, please note that this account is similar in nature to the whistleblowers in the Tavistock gender clinic in the UK. I think this should lend some additional credence to what is being reported, that so many professionals in different institutions are making the same specific criticisms regarding the quality of care provided to these children.
If your kid is "too young" to know they're Trans, they're too young to know they're cis too. Blockers are safe, and forcing a trans kid through puberty they don't want will cost a lot in therapy and surgery down the line.
32 comments
[ 9.4 ms ] story [ 1183 ms ] threadTransitioning at 18 or 21 should be ok afaik. If your child identifies so strongly with the idea of transitioning, they could at least do 2/3 years of dressing up as the other gender, changing their pronouns and name and see how they feel.
I’ve been trans identifying a lot of my life but decided in my adult life to move onto life as a drag performer and non binary.
Im not sure what would’ve happened to me had to gotten the hormones but I’m happy it wasn’t an option.
You can easily make problems in your life be problems of “oh well those would be solved if I was a woman”. They wouldn’t. The issues I had came from issues I had with myself and they healed over time with therapy. I got support from therapists alongside with the advice of “wait and see how you feel”. Turns out they mostly realised that I was placing problems into me being a man that were problems that I had in my own psyche. That was my conclusion.
What you feel as a kid / teenager shouldn’t really be taken as gospel IMO. A lot of life changes ahead of you.
As a trans woman I can tell you that waiting until post adolescence caused MAJOR harm - my body will never recover from the changes I got as a result.
You need to stop thinking you’re situation is the same as everyone.
I’m happy you didn’t feel the need to transition. You’re therefore not transgender therefore you do not have the right to speak for those of us that are.
I think it's pretty clear from their post They're speaking from the perspective of a formerly trans person
Did your family support you in your journey?
Genuinely curious as I feel like that makes a big difference.
There is one obvious harm: puberty.
If your kid is transitioning male-to-female, then if she doesn't get treatment, she will grow facial and body hair and have her voice deepen. If they are female-to-male, they will grow breasts. (This is not an exhaustive list.) Some trans people are fine with being obviously non-gender-conforming, but a lot of them aren't. I don't have a price chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that electrolysis and breast reductions are more expensive than a few years of hormones, and while voice training can help with their voice, there's only so much it can do.
There's not much evidence for anything about trans people since it's a very new phenomenon in the social consciousness, but you can be ruining someone's life by appealing to that scientific ignorance + your anecdata mixed in.
Just trust the latest collective consensus of psychologists and doctors, and encourage others to do the same. They're paid to know about this stuff and to onboard the enormous risk you are with your prescriptions in this thread.
That's interesting, I have the complete opposite position. Doctors and psychologists can give a informed guess at best. What you hear will vary wildly by the person you select.
I don't think it is practical to put the risk or responsibility on them. Ultimately it comes down to the patients and their parents who have to decide what they think is right and live with the consequences, good or bad.
Trans people have always existed. The way they are accepted or not accepted into societies fluctuates.
“Left untreated, gender dysphoria has any number of consequences, from self-harm to suicide.” ... There are no reliable studies showing this.
Yes, there are. It's clear that gender dysphoria kills kids every single year. It's like asking for peer-reviewed studies of parachutes.
It's Bari Weiss's rag. She makes a living provoking liberals.
I assume that the author is sincere, though that's more benefit of the doubt than I really ought to grant for a known liar and provocateur as Weiss. Still, granting it, I'm willing to believe that treating gender dysphoria is hard. I don't doubt that some people fail in their treatment, no matter what route they take.
I am not myself, and I know a great many people who are much happier after transitioning. I know of none who were harmed by it. That's anecdotal, but suffices for me to know that it's not an industry whose whistle needs blowing.
What's needed is continued work to understand what's going on with gender, and the best way to help people who believe gender identification is the source of their unhappiness. It won't be helped by provocateurs who have decided that everything I do is a bad thing and will use any deception, cherry-picking, or outright falsehood to prove it.
I know that kids in non-supportive households suffer. What about in those that support them in their journey?
Can kids make that decision ? I’m not sure.
I don’t want to invalidate anyone’s perspective or experience. I’m just not sure.
Meanwhile, based on the anecdotes mentioned previously, multiple states have proposed or passed bills banning all parachutes.
The data we lack is randomized controlled trials showing that hormonal intervention helps reduce rates for people with gender dysporia.
This isn't an argument for prohibition, just a statement on the current data.
Whilst it’s all but a guarantee that there are some kids who are being over treated, the general premise about needing to treat kids at a young age is spot on.
I wasn’t even much past 3 years old before I knew “something” was wrong. Growing up in the early 1970’s though made any chance of knowing what it was damn near impossible.
It’s very true that for transgender people - especially male to females, preventing adolescence can be a lifesaver as they go down their journey. Transitioning once that’s kicked in and done its work makes life very very much harder for the individual.
My concern has been the race to the bottom here though - I’ve been very concerned with this desire to accept “self diagnosis” as everything. Even in my 20’s I still wasn’t sure if I was trans, or a cross-dresser. Turns out it was the former, but it took 2 years of intensive therapy to nail it down.
So yeah, we stand a chance to misdiagnose, but that’s not a reason to throw everything out either.
I know of some trans centers that are far less slack and take the process very seriously - however in life there are sadly people whose agenda means more than the patient - and yes there’s a risk of misdiagnosis as a result.
I don’t have an answer - but I do know we can’t NOT treat kids who may be trans. Part of the issue is also societal: even today there’s a major stigma around being trans - brought on mainly by the religious right, or the terfs.
I’ve been fully transitioned (inc. surgery) for well over 10 years now and I know I’m more relaxed and happy - but yes, there’s still the odd time where someone ‘reads’ me and attacks me as a result. That’s a fear I will always have to live with - that pathetic small minded people feel they have the moral right to make transgender people “less than”.
A child given the correct treatment is less likely to suffer this as an adult.
A child misdiagnosed is also going to have problems - true.
This isn’t an easy one.
My thoughts on the matter came to a head after reading this article a couple days ago and my current thinking is that we're putting too much responsibility on the medical profession and policy.
At the end of the day, it should be the decision of the patients and parents. It is their responsibility to weigh the information available and make their best decision. It is also their responsibility to live with the consequences of their choices.
I'm absolutely with you about waiting.