Every time this comes up I feel like the root cause is being ignored: delivery apps are driving the majority of unsafe e-bike sales in NYC at least
Delivery drivers have bikes that meet a few key needs:
1. Must be cheap since the apps barely pay enough to make the job worth its while
2. Must be fast, since they're incentivized on multiple levels to make deliveries as fast as humanly possible
3. Must have maximum possible uptime, see 2.
That results in literal boatloads of imported bikes with insanely large batteries at the cheapest possible price point. They charge at the very limits that the batteries will support, they're barely QC'd, and the end result is a ticking time bomb.
It's a hairy situation because these people are just trying to make a living, but are forced to do so with extremely unsafe bikes. In my eyes it needs to be a two pronged attack: The government can't just try and only clamp down on the bike sales, people will find a way when their living depends on it.
They also need to work with these apps to remove the incentive and/or provide an alternative. Even if it means having to subsidize bikes for delivery riders I can't imagine the cost and tragedy of repeated fires won't quickly overcome what it'd cost to help them afford safer bikes.
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Also something I'm shocked hasn't happened yet is regulation on providing safe charging areas in new construction. It's not a solution for existing building because good luck getting half of these buildings to do that when working fire doors isn't a given... but the city is going in on biking, and e-bikes are a natural part of that.
Such a waste that we’re failing on standardization here so miserably. I should be able to use the same battery for an e-bike, a lawnmower, a power tool, as a backup battery or in a car for an extra mile or two.
Maybe need different sizes for different durations of use, but that’s about it.
This "problem" is basically "poor people don't buy nice enough stuff to satisfy upper middle class standards of safety and reliability" is 95% solved by charging the battery in a $5 metal trashcan or something else like that.
Maybe the condescending angst would be appropriate if I hadn't stated:
> It's a hairy situation because these people are just trying to make a living, but are forced to do so with extremely unsafe bikes.
And then suggested that the conditions these riders are in be improved, rather than just trying to take away the thing they rely on to put food on their tables as the current plan is.
There's something very HN about trying to reduce such a massively complex issue to "jUsT giVe thEm tRaShCanS" though
I'm the condescending one and yet you quote yourself talking down to these people as if they aren't choosing them because they're better than all the other options all things considered? Come on. Have some self awareness.
Not only that but between traffic, slip and fall hazards, crime and everything else charging the battery is probably the least dangerous part of the job.
>There's something very HN about trying to reduce such a massively complex issue to "jUsT giVe thEm tRaShCanS" though
And "clearly these people are misinformed of the long tail risks, let's solve that by subsidizing nicer stuff that has a different risk profile" isn't?
This isn't a massively complex issue. People use the product and they like the product. It's their life. Butt out.
>if they aren't choosing them because they're better than all the other options all things considered?
So you don't know what it means when someone has to do something to put food on their table as I stated multiple times.
> clearly these people are misinformed of the long tail risks
If you still haven't understood that these people are well aware of the risks and don't have a choice, I don't know what to say.
> This isn't a massively complex issue. People use the product and they like the product. It's their life. Butt out.
People are dying. And it's not rich people in high rises with the state of the art in fire prevention, it's working class people in old buildings known for horrific deadly outcomes from fires that wouldn't even have made the apartment bulletin board in new construction.
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Yeah... so the forced virtue signaling outrage angle isn't working out this time, maybe just drop it.
Maybe you should have saved it from someone not from the 3rd world, who can see faux concern from 100 miles away.
I’ve always thought a great weapon for the opening days of WWIII would be firmware updates that blow the battery packs up. There are probably billions of Chinese made devices plugged in across the US, in homes and offices, and the flip of a switch could easily trigger a fire. Now that China has entered the fray and is providing lethal aid to Russia, I suspect such a development isn’t just something in the kooky conspiracy theory realm, but that it’s a realistic possibility. Just imagine the damage to the US and other NATO allied infrastructure if, suddenly, every home and office building “burned down.” And there is no way to prevent this possibility or mitigate it.
Can you provide a source for this? Everything I have read suggests they have "considered" or "are considering" or "could consider" and nothing suggests any aid has occurred.
Your comment made me miss old good HN. While other members do better job in requiring you to provide proof of ridiculous claims you have made, I will just focus on technical details - may I know how would you suggest firmware to "blow the battery up"?
How do you suppose a lithium battery’s charging is managed? What controls it, sets safe limits? Is this hardware able to be accessed from the device in any way? Your phone is a bomb as long as you just adjust your attitude and think a little deeper.
I've worked with batteries, and firmware, and the person you're responding to is correct. The firmware on a battery controls things like charging limits (and more!). If the firmware is written poorly it leads to battery fires.
> firmware on a battery controls things like charging limits (and more
Was I opposing this?
> firmware is written poorly it leads to battery fires
Do you have any supporting to the claim?
While there may be some correlation between battery firmware and fires, I doubt fire can be caused by firmware routine, even if it is calling short-circuiting the battery.
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly, and we've already asked you to stop. We ban accounts that keep doing this. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
Direct experience. You're going to have a hard time finding public documentation about a battery maker owning up to firmware causing a fire. Usually the product the battery winds up in takes public responsibility for the issues and they'll list the problem as quality control. In the case I'm describing, we had to get the firmware code from the battery manufacturer and rewrite the firmware while we shopped for an alternative battery with better quality control.
To cause a fire, you'd remove the limits on overcharging.
22 comments
[ 0.28 ms ] story [ 59.1 ms ] threadDelivery drivers have bikes that meet a few key needs:
1. Must be cheap since the apps barely pay enough to make the job worth its while
2. Must be fast, since they're incentivized on multiple levels to make deliveries as fast as humanly possible
3. Must have maximum possible uptime, see 2.
That results in literal boatloads of imported bikes with insanely large batteries at the cheapest possible price point. They charge at the very limits that the batteries will support, they're barely QC'd, and the end result is a ticking time bomb.
It's a hairy situation because these people are just trying to make a living, but are forced to do so with extremely unsafe bikes. In my eyes it needs to be a two pronged attack: The government can't just try and only clamp down on the bike sales, people will find a way when their living depends on it.
They also need to work with these apps to remove the incentive and/or provide an alternative. Even if it means having to subsidize bikes for delivery riders I can't imagine the cost and tragedy of repeated fires won't quickly overcome what it'd cost to help them afford safer bikes.
-
Also something I'm shocked hasn't happened yet is regulation on providing safe charging areas in new construction. It's not a solution for existing building because good luck getting half of these buildings to do that when working fire doors isn't a given... but the city is going in on biking, and e-bikes are a natural part of that.
Taiwan has a system of battery exchanges for one of their scooter networks: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGwmPcClWrE
Such a waste that we’re failing on standardization here so miserably. I should be able to use the same battery for an e-bike, a lawnmower, a power tool, as a backup battery or in a car for an extra mile or two.
Maybe need different sizes for different durations of use, but that’s about it.
> It's a hairy situation because these people are just trying to make a living, but are forced to do so with extremely unsafe bikes.
And then suggested that the conditions these riders are in be improved, rather than just trying to take away the thing they rely on to put food on their tables as the current plan is.
There's something very HN about trying to reduce such a massively complex issue to "jUsT giVe thEm tRaShCanS" though
Not only that but between traffic, slip and fall hazards, crime and everything else charging the battery is probably the least dangerous part of the job.
>There's something very HN about trying to reduce such a massively complex issue to "jUsT giVe thEm tRaShCanS" though
And "clearly these people are misinformed of the long tail risks, let's solve that by subsidizing nicer stuff that has a different risk profile" isn't?
This isn't a massively complex issue. People use the product and they like the product. It's their life. Butt out.
So you don't know what it means when someone has to do something to put food on their table as I stated multiple times.
> clearly these people are misinformed of the long tail risks
If you still haven't understood that these people are well aware of the risks and don't have a choice, I don't know what to say.
> This isn't a massively complex issue. People use the product and they like the product. It's their life. Butt out.
People are dying. And it's not rich people in high rises with the state of the art in fire prevention, it's working class people in old buildings known for horrific deadly outcomes from fires that wouldn't even have made the apartment bulletin board in new construction.
-
Yeah... so the forced virtue signaling outrage angle isn't working out this time, maybe just drop it.
Maybe you should have saved it from someone not from the 3rd world, who can see faux concern from 100 miles away.
Can you provide a source for this? Everything I have read suggests they have "considered" or "are considering" or "could consider" and nothing suggests any aid has occurred.
Was I opposing this?
> firmware is written poorly it leads to battery fires
Do you have any supporting to the claim?
While there may be some correlation between battery firmware and fires, I doubt fire can be caused by firmware routine, even if it is calling short-circuiting the battery.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Direct experience. You're going to have a hard time finding public documentation about a battery maker owning up to firmware causing a fire. Usually the product the battery winds up in takes public responsibility for the issues and they'll list the problem as quality control. In the case I'm describing, we had to get the firmware code from the battery manufacturer and rewrite the firmware while we shopped for an alternative battery with better quality control.
To cause a fire, you'd remove the limits on overcharging.
I thought most ebike batteries were LFP which are a lot more fire resistant than NMC chems.
I mean, bad electric power supplies are bad electric power supplies, but still....
Ok. so 200 "battery blazes". Does that include... smartphones?
"FIRE CITY" is the graph title. For 200 fires in a city of 10 million+
Ok boomer.