“Also, I managed to peel off two parts of the undercar fiberboard aero shield. The first event happened when I hit 12” of water that I didn’t see in a flash flood at 40 mph. The second event happened when I drove my car out of the Brighton ski resort parking lot in 6” of packed snow.”
This is not maintenance, this is repairing damage.
Packed parking lot snow can be surprisingly unforgiving.
When I was a teenager I had a tiny Datsun 510. After a day of snowboarding I was making my way out of a ski resort parking lot and hit a small dip. The engine came down onto a tiny mountain of packed snow/ice and managed to crack both the radiator and the oil pan. That was an expensive day on the slopes.
Maybe a freak accident, but that car was very light and I was surprised at the damage as well. My cousin worked at the resort at the time and he said it would happen frequently.
"Packed" sounds like the key word here. Packed snow with tire ruts, which is common in the Brighton parking lot, can rip things off of many small/low cars quite easily.
I imagine this would be a problem uniquely experienced by super heavy cars with low ground clearance, (comparatively, of course), basically Teslas.
Normally, heavy I.C.E. vehicles would have greater ground clearance (like trucks/SUVs), or lower ground clearance I.C.E. vehicles would be lighter.
So if you were, for example, driving on compressed snow/ice and you had a low clearance, heavy vehicle (like a Tesla) you may sink deeper into the tire ruts subjecting everything between your left and right tires to an icy sledgehammer. (Or harmlessly high centering and being stuck)
Who would have thought that Tesla refusing to allow the use of aftermarket parts could have a negative impact on consumers. It’s almost like having a monopoly allows companies to misbehave and overcharge.
> An internal combustion engine (ICE) replacement cost is ~$7000. It is much more complex than an electric motor. In addition, ICE cars have very complex transmissions (replacement cost ~$5000). You also have exhaust and emission control systems, which EVs do not have, radiator/cooling systems, etc., etc., etc.
My last ICE car I bought new had a 10 year/100k mile powertrain and emissions warranty; I haven't had to replace the engine or transmission yet (which would be much more expensive than the article's quoted price). My recently purchased English-made "beater" SUV is 22 years old, and has 155k miles on it. I had to swap the radiator, drag link, and brake booster reservoir: my out of pocket was $1500. Obviously my points are anecdata, but leading with their examples feels like a massive EV cope. Outside of non-911 performance cars (I'm looking at you recent BMWs, Mercedes, Volvo cars and Porsche SUVs) ICEs have become insanely reliable: the engine isn't the weak link. Whether you're buying an ICE or EV, you still have to pay for: suspension, brakes, tires, windshield wipers, and "life support" parts.
EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better).
> EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better).
Tyre debris/pollution is starting to look like the next thing to be tackled[0], and EVs seem worse in that regard (heavier, and with wider tyres to cope with the extra torque).
Yah.. you compound this with English/German hybrid electrical system design from 20 years ago, and it rapidly becomes something too expensive to pay a mechanic to fix.
Cabin heater failure causes the entire drive system to fail. This is Christmas light string level engineering. You are double fucked if your heating fails in a blizzard.
I don’t know why people list transmission and engine full replacement costs as a maintenance cost of an ICE. The whole point of maintenance is that you don’t end up doing anything like that.
Is it possible to blow up a maintained engine? Of course, ask anyone who has owned a WRX :)
But if you are driving a normal (IE not “performance”) car and you aren’t just thrashing it, then I would expect multiple 100k out of an ICE.
That’s said: 5k in maintenance over 90k doesn’t seem insane, especially given the great deal they got on their emergency replacement tires :-O
It seems like a weird coping or logic mechanism? I don't get it. I'm not replacing the motor every 10k in my car. And the recent engine rebuild on my "race" car didn't even come near that cost using definitely more expensive aftermarket parts.
How else could they say that ICE maintenance is more expensive than BEV, if they won't start rambling about nonsensical replacements?
Like who really changes their transmission? You are changing clutch discs, if you don't know how to use clutch, but those does not cost XY thousand of dollars.
Who replaces their engine after XY miles? If there is a problem with an engine, then you will fix the problem, i.e. replace filters or injectors. Replacement happens only if it has a catastrophic failure, like block split in half or a piston telling your bonnet "hello".
Hondas from the mid 90s to mid 2000s had bad automatic transmissions. It was more of a bad supplier than Honda, but Honda issued a voluntary recall letter to owners
subtracting the stuff that would be common for ICE cars (tires, alignment, damage repair) the ~$2000 left over is substantially less than one would expect maintaining an ICE car for 90,000 miles to cost, even if nothing went wrong.
Where? At 50k miles our last car had less than $2k in maintenance done and still was covered under warranty. We replaced one set of tires in that cost as well. I would say had we kept it to 90k miles we would still be less than or at 2k total.
For the brakes to seize from rust you'd really need to have not used them for quite a while.
I have a Model 3 and a Subaru STI (disc brakes on all four wheels). I usually use regen in the Model 3, but not as much in the winter (it's disabled below certain temps). The brakes work fine even after exclusive regen use for months.
The STI rarely gets driven. It'll go 3-4 months of not going anywhere and frequently gets a layer of surface rust on the discs as a result. 10 minutes of driving and the rust is gone. This is a track car as well, and before it's driven it gets a safety inspection as required by the track owners. It's never failed because of surface rust on the discs.
For disc brakes to rust to the point of failure would require some serious neglect in addition to harsh conditions. At that point, rusted discs are probably the least of your concerns, as the rest of the car is likely a pile of red dust.
> For disc brakes to rust to the point of failure would require some serious neglect in addition to harsh conditions. At that point, rusted discs are probably the least of your concerns, as the rest of the car is likely a pile of red dust.
Actually it was kind of normal for Toyota Prius to have seized brakes because they weren't used thanks to regen.
Regen doesn't completely turn off your traditional braking system in a Prius.
My wife has driven the same Prius for the past 12 years and if that model of car was prone to having its most important safety system seize up, there'd have been a massive recall for that specific issue. I've replaced the brake pads twice myself in those 12 years, and have had a mechanic do it once. The wear and tear have looked like any other old brake pad I've replaced in other cars. The discs have never looked worn beyond what's normal for a 12 year old car.
Looking through my records turned up a single brake related recall specific to our model year, except it was for the parking brake. The issue they were fixing could occur if: "the driver exits the vehicle with the transmission in a gear other than ‘Park’ while the ignition is on," and required having a tiny clip installed.
There was another brake related recall that was more severe, but didn't impact our model year. It did however apply to other model year Prius', and several other Toyota/Lexus models, most of which are traditional ICE vehicles without regenerative braking.
Nothing to do with brakes seizing.
Also, rusty rotors wouldn't cause brake calipers to seize. That'd be an issue with the calipers themselves. I'll concede that having brake pads degrade or fail could contribute to calipers seizing, and that a severely rusted disc could contribute to pad failure, but that's still a long shot. Again, the disc would have to be so severely rusted that it'd damage the pads.
You'd be more at risk of pad damage from road grit than you would from the typical surface rust one gets from not using the vehicle at all.
Wrong on two counts. The minor one: a VW ID.3 also has disc brakes.
The major reason you're wrong is that the very manufacturer of the braking system, ZF Friedrichshafen AG, has described exactly why they decided to design and develop an entirely new type of drum brake system instead of using proven technology like disc brakes.
Here's what Manfred Meyer, Senior VP of ZF's Safety division said about them:
> The braking system for a battery-electric vehicle utilizes intelligent integration in a number of ways. For example, we can eliminate the need for a mechanical locking mechanism in the drivetrain and keep the vehicle in park mode through software that controls this function within the ESC and redundantly in the Electronic Brake Booster unit. The brake system itself helps ensure that the car cannot move – this saves cost and results in less weight. This system also allows for automatic stability control and advanced driver assist features that require automatic emergency braking.
You'd think if rusty rotors and seizing calipers were what motivated them to use technology that's almost universally seen as inferior, people like Manfred would be quick to defend their choice by pointing out the obvious flaw with disc brakes and regen, as you've been so enthusiastically doing.
Not sure it matters much to you though. If I were Manfred Meyer himself and I explained in great detail why you're wrong, you'd probably still insist on maintaining your ignorance so you could win some sort of HN contest.
To save us both some time: you win. You're right. The VW ID.3 has drum brakes in the rear, and disc brakes in the front, because "regen seizes brakes," and we have you to thank for setting the record straight.
In most ICE cars you would also be doing an automatic transmission fluid flush, brake line flush (potentially twice) and one or two replacement batteries. In an AWD car you would also need a transfer case flush. Tesla recommends brake fluid flush only if you tow, presumably because regenerative braking reduces the load on the braking system. As well as coolant, which you mention, I looked it up and Tesla used to recommend a coolant flush at 50k miles but now says it is not required (I have had mine done at 45k miles on my current ICE car).
Welcome to the party folks. When people are complaining about maintaining an ice car, they are not replacing the crankshaft or transmission on an annual basis.
Every single unscheduled maintenance that I have done for my 2 ice cars in the past 10 years, would also be needed if they were electric. Wire looms, position sensors for accelerator, airbag sensors, ball bearings, suspension, windshield, ac compressor etc
Maybe I could had avoided some brake rotor changes with an electric car.
But It was really infuriating when people would casually claim that electric cars don’t need maintenance.
I own a Model3 LR and an ICE. The Tesla is significantly more costly with insurance & tyres. It has also had a bunch of teething problems like broken camera, charging micro (stopping all charging). Fixed under warranty. 20,000km in 2 years.
My ICE has basically had no issues in 7 years (77,000 km) except the cost of oil change once a year. But recently it developed a rattle, which I had investigated, resulting in a $2,000 invoice just to investigate (at one point it wouldn't start at the garage, and they just kept throwing parts at it to get it working again). Now it's got a rattle and won't sell. It will cost more than it's worth to pull the engine apart to find the problem (probably timing chain).
Both are going to have issues. Overall though, for me, I'm more sensitive to time. So I'm scrapping the ICE for a ModelY.
You should be doing oil changes every 5k (Some say 3k) miles/6 months. Once a year is not enough with the distance you are putting on it. You should have had about 10-16 oil changes. That would explain premature wear on your timing chain (More likely you have broken guides).
That may have been the case sometime between the World Wars, but the only reason you'd do that these days is if you particularly enjoy visiting the shop.
Modern oils can easily last 20000 km (if you'd want, you could only change the oil every other time you change the filter) barring particularly harsh conditions or poor and obsolete engine design. Also, lots of driving (as in typically longer trips) means the oil lasts better.
Oil changes are a common nuisance only if you make them one.
Just like sealed lifetime oil transmissions, its all car manufacturers ploy to artificially lower maintenance costs to appease leasing/rental clients. They dont care about car wear as long as it survives lease term.
The costs seem reasonable to me. I think the issue is with the expectations. Cars need maintenance because they’re >1 ton hunks of metal moving through a semi-consistent subset of the outdoor environment at dozens of meters per second, regardless of whether they’re “thousands of tiny explosions every second”-type or “big spinny magnet”-type.
It also shows the difference between a car designed by a company with many years of knowledge on how to make everything durable and cost-effective to own and repair (say, Honda or Toyota), versus a car designed by a startup.
> An internal combustion engine (ICE) replacement cost is ~$7000. It is much more complex than an electric motor. In addition, ICE cars have very complex transmissions (replacement cost ~$5000).
is he talking about the cost of swapping brand new Ford performance crate engine? Book time on engine swap is 10 hours x $100-150, transmission half that. Good second hand engine usually ~$1000, transmissions $500 used up to ~$2K brand new from manufacturer. But nobody sane replaces engine/transmission every time something breaks.
> The third set was purchased at a Les Schwab tire store in Orem, Utah, where I arrived with a totally flat right rear tire. I had no opportunity to shop for tires and didn’t realize how much more I had paid
aka got scammed
>I don’t have the exact date and mileage because this is one of the older repairs which are no longer given under service history in the Tesla app on my cell phone
wtf, you cant even see full service history of your car?
> February 2, 2023/88,705 miles: Remove and replace front aero shield (under car fiber apron) = $427.13.
Third party is still a thing for cars thanks to Magnuson Moss. Stainless Steel front/back replacement set $280, Alu set $380.
>I had two expensive repairs for items which were “not part of the drive system.” However, they caused the drive system to fail. It seems to me that Tesla should have fixed for free the two items that caused my drive system to fail since the drive system was still under warranty
If you believe that argue with Tesla, get them into small claims etc.
ICE engines/transmissions are cheap and nearly bulletproof. It costs around $0.02/mile to fully replace them both with sub-100k used replacements every time they hit 250k miles, and the deal is a bit better than it seems because any decent mechanic will toss in a brand new timing belt and water pump while it's all exposed.
Even if you paid the post's exorbitant rates by putting new engines and transmissions in ancient cars and doing so at 200k miles instead of waiting till they actually failed, you'd only be in for $0.06/mile -- less than insurance or gas individually in most situations.
Fine article otherwise, and kudos for keeping track of the detailed costs. The framing against ICE engines is odd though, especially when not highlighting the things that actually make them more expensive to operate.
Disregarding the environmental aspect, it is insane how reliable ICE cars are nowadays. If you follow the maintenance schedule prescribed by the manufacturer, and barring any accidents, your car will rarely develop any problems at all. Even for 15-20 years. They just keep going.
Yeah stuff like speakers and some electronics might give problems, but the core mechanicals will keep chugging longer than you would expect.
52 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 115 ms ] threadThis is not maintenance, this is repairing damage.
Hitting that at any speed is unlikely to make for a fun day.
When I was a teenager I had a tiny Datsun 510. After a day of snowboarding I was making my way out of a ski resort parking lot and hit a small dip. The engine came down onto a tiny mountain of packed snow/ice and managed to crack both the radiator and the oil pan. That was an expensive day on the slopes.
Maybe a freak accident, but that car was very light and I was surprised at the damage as well. My cousin worked at the resort at the time and he said it would happen frequently.
Normally, heavy I.C.E. vehicles would have greater ground clearance (like trucks/SUVs), or lower ground clearance I.C.E. vehicles would be lighter.
So if you were, for example, driving on compressed snow/ice and you had a low clearance, heavy vehicle (like a Tesla) you may sink deeper into the tire ruts subjecting everything between your left and right tires to an icy sledgehammer. (Or harmlessly high centering and being stuck)
They cant and they dont.
My last ICE car I bought new had a 10 year/100k mile powertrain and emissions warranty; I haven't had to replace the engine or transmission yet (which would be much more expensive than the article's quoted price). My recently purchased English-made "beater" SUV is 22 years old, and has 155k miles on it. I had to swap the radiator, drag link, and brake booster reservoir: my out of pocket was $1500. Obviously my points are anecdata, but leading with their examples feels like a massive EV cope. Outside of non-911 performance cars (I'm looking at you recent BMWs, Mercedes, Volvo cars and Porsche SUVs) ICEs have become insanely reliable: the engine isn't the weak link. Whether you're buying an ICE or EV, you still have to pay for: suspension, brakes, tires, windshield wipers, and "life support" parts.
EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better).
Tyre debris/pollution is starting to look like the next thing to be tackled[0], and EVs seem worse in that regard (heavier, and with wider tyres to cope with the extra torque).
[0] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/drivers-could...
This is why he references a complete engine replacement.
But you're right - it's terrible engineering to have the entire car shut down just because the in car heat fails.
This kind of kludgey, fiddly, brittle, and complex engineering is quite common in German, Italian, French, and British cars.
Especially modern German cars. Brilliant to drive, laughable to maintain
Is it possible to blow up a maintained engine? Of course, ask anyone who has owned a WRX :)
But if you are driving a normal (IE not “performance”) car and you aren’t just thrashing it, then I would expect multiple 100k out of an ICE.
That’s said: 5k in maintenance over 90k doesn’t seem insane, especially given the great deal they got on their emergency replacement tires :-O
Like who really changes their transmission? You are changing clutch discs, if you don't know how to use clutch, but those does not cost XY thousand of dollars.
Who replaces their engine after XY miles? If there is a problem with an engine, then you will fix the problem, i.e. replace filters or injectors. Replacement happens only if it has a catastrophic failure, like block split in half or a piston telling your bonnet "hello".
Hondas from the mid 90s to mid 2000s had bad automatic transmissions. It was more of a bad supplier than Honda, but Honda issued a voluntary recall letter to owners
- 9x oil/filter change
- 2x air filter change
- 1x fuel filter change
- 2x spark plug change
Other things like brakes, tyres, coolant I presume are the same as an EV so not worth including.
In the UK you'd be paying about £1200/$1450 for that in a normal car (e.g. VW, not Porsche).
Coolant is different because it's a closed loop system that doesn't run at pressure near boiling at all times. 205f is ice coolant temperature.
Yeah this works until you really need to break. Then they will seize because they got rusted by not being used.
I have a Model 3 and a Subaru STI (disc brakes on all four wheels). I usually use regen in the Model 3, but not as much in the winter (it's disabled below certain temps). The brakes work fine even after exclusive regen use for months.
The STI rarely gets driven. It'll go 3-4 months of not going anywhere and frequently gets a layer of surface rust on the discs as a result. 10 minutes of driving and the rust is gone. This is a track car as well, and before it's driven it gets a safety inspection as required by the track owners. It's never failed because of surface rust on the discs.
For disc brakes to rust to the point of failure would require some serious neglect in addition to harsh conditions. At that point, rusted discs are probably the least of your concerns, as the rest of the car is likely a pile of red dust.
Actually it was kind of normal for Toyota Prius to have seized brakes because they weren't used thanks to regen.
Regen doesn't completely turn off your traditional braking system in a Prius.
My wife has driven the same Prius for the past 12 years and if that model of car was prone to having its most important safety system seize up, there'd have been a massive recall for that specific issue. I've replaced the brake pads twice myself in those 12 years, and have had a mechanic do it once. The wear and tear have looked like any other old brake pad I've replaced in other cars. The discs have never looked worn beyond what's normal for a 12 year old car.
Looking through my records turned up a single brake related recall specific to our model year, except it was for the parking brake. The issue they were fixing could occur if: "the driver exits the vehicle with the transmission in a gear other than ‘Park’ while the ignition is on," and required having a tiny clip installed.
There was another brake related recall that was more severe, but didn't impact our model year. It did however apply to other model year Prius', and several other Toyota/Lexus models, most of which are traditional ICE vehicles without regenerative braking.
Nothing to do with brakes seizing.
Also, rusty rotors wouldn't cause brake calipers to seize. That'd be an issue with the calipers themselves. I'll concede that having brake pads degrade or fail could contribute to calipers seizing, and that a severely rusted disc could contribute to pad failure, but that's still a long shot. Again, the disc would have to be so severely rusted that it'd damage the pads.
You'd be more at risk of pad damage from road grit than you would from the typical surface rust one gets from not using the vehicle at all.
The major reason you're wrong is that the very manufacturer of the braking system, ZF Friedrichshafen AG, has described exactly why they decided to design and develop an entirely new type of drum brake system instead of using proven technology like disc brakes.
Here's what Manfred Meyer, Senior VP of ZF's Safety division said about them:
> The braking system for a battery-electric vehicle utilizes intelligent integration in a number of ways. For example, we can eliminate the need for a mechanical locking mechanism in the drivetrain and keep the vehicle in park mode through software that controls this function within the ESC and redundantly in the Electronic Brake Booster unit. The brake system itself helps ensure that the car cannot move – this saves cost and results in less weight. This system also allows for automatic stability control and advanced driver assist features that require automatic emergency braking.
You'd think if rusty rotors and seizing calipers were what motivated them to use technology that's almost universally seen as inferior, people like Manfred would be quick to defend their choice by pointing out the obvious flaw with disc brakes and regen, as you've been so enthusiastically doing.
Not sure it matters much to you though. If I were Manfred Meyer himself and I explained in great detail why you're wrong, you'd probably still insist on maintaining your ignorance so you could win some sort of HN contest.
To save us both some time: you win. You're right. The VW ID.3 has drum brakes in the rear, and disc brakes in the front, because "regen seizes brakes," and we have you to thank for setting the record straight.
EVs still have 12v batteries that need replacing, I thought.
The 12v battery in Tesla’s is now lithium, good for the life of the vehicle.
Granted my mom bought Toyotas, but we never did any clutch changes, and drove them to 150k at least.
Every single unscheduled maintenance that I have done for my 2 ice cars in the past 10 years, would also be needed if they were electric. Wire looms, position sensors for accelerator, airbag sensors, ball bearings, suspension, windshield, ac compressor etc
Maybe I could had avoided some brake rotor changes with an electric car.
But It was really infuriating when people would casually claim that electric cars don’t need maintenance.
My ICE has basically had no issues in 7 years (77,000 km) except the cost of oil change once a year. But recently it developed a rattle, which I had investigated, resulting in a $2,000 invoice just to investigate (at one point it wouldn't start at the garage, and they just kept throwing parts at it to get it working again). Now it's got a rattle and won't sell. It will cost more than it's worth to pull the engine apart to find the problem (probably timing chain).
Both are going to have issues. Overall though, for me, I'm more sensitive to time. So I'm scrapping the ICE for a ModelY.
Modern oils can easily last 20000 km (if you'd want, you could only change the oil every other time you change the filter) barring particularly harsh conditions or poor and obsolete engine design. Also, lots of driving (as in typically longer trips) means the oil lasts better.
Oil changes are a common nuisance only if you make them one.
is he talking about the cost of swapping brand new Ford performance crate engine? Book time on engine swap is 10 hours x $100-150, transmission half that. Good second hand engine usually ~$1000, transmissions $500 used up to ~$2K brand new from manufacturer. But nobody sane replaces engine/transmission every time something breaks.
> The third set was purchased at a Les Schwab tire store in Orem, Utah, where I arrived with a totally flat right rear tire. I had no opportunity to shop for tires and didn’t realize how much more I had paid
aka got scammed
>I don’t have the exact date and mileage because this is one of the older repairs which are no longer given under service history in the Tesla app on my cell phone
wtf, you cant even see full service history of your car?
>October 2021/~53,000 miles: remove and replace rear aero shield = ~$427.13
> February 2, 2023/88,705 miles: Remove and replace front aero shield (under car fiber apron) = $427.13.
Third party is still a thing for cars thanks to Magnuson Moss. Stainless Steel front/back replacement set $280, Alu set $380.
>I had two expensive repairs for items which were “not part of the drive system.” However, they caused the drive system to fail. It seems to me that Tesla should have fixed for free the two items that caused my drive system to fail since the drive system was still under warranty
If you believe that argue with Tesla, get them into small claims etc.
Even if you paid the post's exorbitant rates by putting new engines and transmissions in ancient cars and doing so at 200k miles instead of waiting till they actually failed, you'd only be in for $0.06/mile -- less than insurance or gas individually in most situations.
Fine article otherwise, and kudos for keeping track of the detailed costs. The framing against ICE engines is odd though, especially when not highlighting the things that actually make them more expensive to operate.
Yeah stuff like speakers and some electronics might give problems, but the core mechanicals will keep chugging longer than you would expect.