I knew a wood worker in Floria who made great stuff but his Etsy was a total flop. He moved and changed address on site to North Carolina. He can’t keep up with orders now. No other changes. Same products, no advertising.
> David Mullet, a member of the Old Order Amish Church and the owner of E-bikes of Holmes County, a popular bicycle shop in a heavily Amish-populated area of Ohio, explained that e-bikes are simply faster and easier than horses.
Well, certainly, but so are other vehicles you shun. I don’t get it, but I don’t really need to, either.
There is an awful lot of debates as to the downsides of technology -- you're on HN, killer, it's what we do all day.
The Chinese government restricted video games; the US gov may punt on TikTok. It comes up a lot, it's just that Capitalism is trying pretty damn hard to shove this tech down your throat. By comparison, the Amish are pretty much disconnected from the modern capitalist world, except when they have to be.
When you can't get gas for your car, it's a large, heavy, utterly useless pile of metal.
When you can't get electricity for your e-bike, it's a large, heavy, but still functional bicycle.
If you build your society around automobiles as a form of transportation, you become critically dependent on enormous supply chains beyond your control. Collapse those supply chains, and modern America would be uninhabitable without the automobile.
If you build your society around e-bikes as a form of transportation, you'll be... Mildly inconvenienced if those supply chains break down.
One of the factors that many Amish groups use when deciding to adopt novel technology is determining how reliant that would make them on the outside world. Automobiles generally have a very hard time passing this test. Bicycles, and electric bicycles have a much easier time.
I've also never heard of having no choice but buying into a predatory 20% APR loan to buy a bicycle.
No man, or village is an island. That doesn't mean that you should blindly enslave yourself to reliance on things beyond your control, when you can help it.
You tell me, how well has, say, reliance on foreign fossil fuels worked out for Germany last year? What if the winter were a few degrees colder? Or in the US, during the oil shocks? How well is Russia's reliance on trade with the rest of the world, and the decline of its industrial base working out for it?
Is there a community free from someone’s claim of contradiction and inconsistency? Is there a point to this kind of snark?
If you have concerns about the Amish community, tradition, or lifestyle, I’m sure they’re more interesting than the philosophical gotcha games that one could target at anyone.
I am not trying to be snarky or play gotcha games. I am pointing out that the Amish lifestyle is an artifact of American society and would not be possible in many other parts of the world. They are playing life in such an easy mode that they decided to have self-imposed restrictions. The electric grid is one of humanities greatest achievement, one that many places unfortunately still can not afford to build.
And more generally I am criticizing the fetishization of self-reliance in its many forms (preppers, bunker builders, gun ownership, etc.) that is so popular with some people. It is a fundamentally nearsighted privilege by selectively ignoring other forms of reliance. Self reliance is not an attitude of resilience, it is one of isolation, selfishness and ruthless competition.
It is precisely the goals for which people came together in cooperation that are humanities greatest achievements. Cooperation and interdependence are higher moral virtues.
> When you can't get electricity for your e-bike, it's a large, heavy, but still functional bicycle.
For some definition of functional.
I really do not enjoy using my electric bicycle without electric assistance. Something about the electric engine makes it really heavy to use without that assistance.
I’d much rather have a bike that didn’t use electricity in the first place.
Hmm for some reason I always thought it was a shortening of "motorised pedestrian" haha.
On the other hand, I have seen models with holes next to the transmission that can accept a pair of removable pedals stowed under the seat. Completely worthless for locomotion, but sufficient to be classified as a bicycle for legal reasons.
I am finding the number of people definitively defining terms with exceptionally high regional variance on this thread to be a little disturbing. Bike, scooter, e-scooter, moped, e-bike all mean different things in different contexts, different places, and different regions.
In the US, at least, there are generally 3 classes of ebikes, and they definitionally have pedals. Some (class 2/3) bikes might also have throttles.
Globally, ebikes are generally broken into two classifications based on whether they are pedal assisted or throttled, with some additional classifications for high speed throttled ebikes.
There do exist low power, throttle only ebikes but they are comparatively rare, and typically classified as a electric motorbike or electric motorcycles depending on jurisdiction. Ontario, for instance, classifies these as "Nopeds". (haha).
In general, broadly, an ebike has pedals and either pedal assistance or a throttle (or both) and can be ridden without the motor. Regional language of course exists, much like how parts of the US call all soda "coke", even sodas like Mountain Dew. They aren't wrong, per se, because regionally they are understood, but they are hardly standard.
> If you build your society around automobiles as a form of transportation, you become critically dependent on enormous supply chains beyond your control.
Sufficient but not necessary. You can build enormous supply chains on ships and trains just fine
> It is common for Amish areas to avoid dependence on the outside world, and thus the communities that do use electricity will often rely heavily on solar panels and other local forms of electricity generation.
> That aligns well with electric bicycles, which have small batteries that are easily charged by equally small solar panels.
> Mullet’s bike shop is entirely off-grid, with two dozen solar panels on the roof to power the store’s electricity. Public e-bike charging stations are also becoming more popular in Amish country, which are simple to create with a series of outdoor weather-protected 120VAC outlets.
It's really cool that what Amish actually care about is avoiding over-dependence. To me it kind of feels like all the people here who self-host their emails etc. — it's not because they shun the technology itself, they just want to be in control of their entire stack.
In some ways, doesn't this put the Amish squarely in the "hacker" demographic?
The Mennonites that have done work for me can use a battery powered tool, an air powered tool attached to a compressor on a generator, an air powered tool on my compressor (but not theirs) plugged into my house (but not by them), a wired tool plugged into a generator, but not a wired tool plugged into my house.
I think that's stretching the term. Self reliance is part of a lot of ways of living but central to 'hacking' is transgression of boundaries and repurposing of tools in unorthodox ways and that's very far from the Amish spirit. Hacking inherently has a tolerance for risk and experiment that conservative adoption of tech tries to avoid.
I think it's true that the Amish deserve respect as craftspeople, but it's still important to maintain some critical distance. They are still deeply religious folks, with orthodox views who cede a lot of control to their local pastor. I would not know much about it other than that they are very heterogeneous, but it appears that there is a steady stream of folks who want out, and those who exit get shunned by their previous communities.
> I mean, if Amish people want to have a society where (in most Amish subcultures), women are essentially uneducated broodmares that aren't encouraged to do anything that conflicts with popping out babies... Is that really that much worse than how our broader culture needs to import truckloads of immigrants to maintain healthy population levels?
..huh? It’s not like the US is importing Amish from other countries, we’re allowing people who want to immigrate to work here (albeit too slowly). I don’t get this argument.
> Amish Elder to assign you a nice Amish woman
This is so far from my own beliefs in individual liberty I’m not sure how to engage frankly
This is an offensive comment. Those ‘truckloads of immigrants’ are people seeking a better life for themselves in a new country. Nearly all of us Americans are immigrants. Amish woman are more than ‘essentially uneducated broodmares as well.
That's a separate question. Accuracy is good but it's not sufficient for a good HN comment.
(Actually, if you think about it, it isn't a necessary condition for a good HN comment either, since people need to be free to make mistakes. But I digress.)
I thought when the amish reached adolescence they were given the ability to leave the community and investigate the world on their own before deciding if they wanted to join the church:
Sadly, depending on the pastor, not everyone can go, especially introverts who do not have much friends or relations within the community.
But some communities are very welcoming and open minded, and everyone can leave or join (temporarily at first). It really depends, I only know one community, influenced by the 70s pacifists movements, i really like them, but I know they aren't the majority.
What I've heard is that the decision to leave is, however, final. Your friends and even family will shun you for even small deviation from the norm. There are no backsies.
Some of his content is benign, but he also discusses the epidemic of child abuse (including sexual), rampant female illiteracy, and the general cruelty of Amish culture.
And Pitcairn island. This is one reason why I'm sceptical to Mars colonies. Far away from regular society, and it's reasonable to expect that people who are seeking out such remote living maybe doesn't function perfectly in all social situations. I think it has the capacity to end poorly, not just for technical reasons but for human reasons as well.
Adults who choose this absolutely deserve respect, but religion and tradition should never be an excuse to limit your childrens' opportunities. Everything we do, from home to central government should be to enable not curtail.
Rumspringa (where applicable) does some of this, but we all know what Rumspringa is actually for. It's a hormone-fuelled binge on life, not a focus on how the rest of the world works, day to day.
There is a Mitch Hedberg joke about escalators that applies here.
Almost all e-bikes can, at the very least, be used without battery power. Some can even be essentially "de-electrified" if need be. The fail state for an e-bike is "slightly less convenient."
Generally the mid-motor models have some fairly serious friction when unpowered. Hub motors usually have way less friction, sometimes to the point of basically being a regular bicycle if you don't put the battery in.
As far as I can tell, the difference is in consumption/durability. They don't buy cars because they'd be hooked on the gas supply chain. But if you buy a solar panel, it's yours.
And the ship has sailed on lithium batteries -- cell phones are permitted in limited contexts.
>
In some ways, doesn't this put the Amish squarely in the "hacker" demographic?
I would say: "No."
Hacking is about making objects (very often computers in a general sense, but hacking is not restricted to it) do things that the creator did not intend them to do, and is often against the intention of the creator of the object.
In this sense, a central component of what makes hacking what it is, is subverting things.
Amish culture is, on the other hand, about obeying the rules of their culture. So, what the Amish do is self-sufficiency, but at most very rarely hacking.
I bet in many cases those e-bikes are a more efficient means of transportation. Bikes can transport more people per unit area than cars. They also have lower pollution levels too, even in comparison to cars who produce significant particulate matter due to the tires.
It’s a bit of irony that Amish communities are using a technologically superior means of urban transit than the average American suburb.
> Some people are commuting eight to ten miles, some only one or two miles, but they jump on their bike and go. With a traditional bike, that would never have been considered.
Why not? I used to commute 13 km (almost exactly 8 miles) each way on a traditional bike. When the weather was nice, I often took one of the more scenic and much longer routes back home.
8 to 10 miles on a traditional bike is just enough work and time to make it impractical for a lot of people, where an e-bike reduces both margins just enough.
Amish areas rearly dependent to the outside world, and thus the communities that do use electricity will often rely heavily on solar panels and other local forms of electricity generation.
> Many Amish are permitted to ride in cars that they don’t own or operate themselves, which means it can be common to hire a driver for specific trips.
I grew up in Knox County, Ohio, just next to Holmes County. I heard of many Amish families owning a van, but not driving it themselves, usually opting for an "englishman"[0] neighbor to drive them into town or wherever.
I grew up in an area with quite a few Amish, and it is interesting how tech from the past 10 years has affected that community.
Like the article says, not all Amish follow the same rules, nor do they abstain entirely from electricity (only some do). For example, it’s very popular for some Amish to have phones and do business with locals via FaceBook.
Would be wild to see one of my old neighbors now, cruising down a dirt road on an electric bike, holding onto his straw hat.
> It’s a common misconception that Amish communities entirely shun electricity and technology.
I have no direct evidence, but I've watched & read things explaining this in a way that makes much more sense, including this use of ebikes.
The Amish shun things that break their ideal society. They choose to have a single phone in a public place to encourage familial and closely knit interactions only. They avoid cars because cars encourage long distance interactions over local ones. They choose to have a computer for running their business that is not used for entertainment, to encourage closely knit interactions. They choose to not have a fridge so the family gathers for meals at specific times, and you can't just raid the fridge on your own.
The technological restrictions are means to an end, not the end goal.
I had the opportunity to spend a week in an Amish Bed & Breakfast last year, in an Amish community. It was a fascinating experience, and I learned a lot about the Amish. I'm no expert, but because I doubt we'll have actual Amish posting about themselves here, I'll do my best to share my understanding respectfully.
There are multiple "orders" of Amish: The Swartzentruber, Beachy, New Order, and others. There are also Mennonites (with their own variety of orders) which are closely related to the Amish. Different orders have different views towards technology. Most of the individuals we were around rode e-bikes and all carried cell phones (flip, not smart). We were told to feel free to take as many photos as we wanted, but please not of people (outside of my party). Several had electricity in their barns, but not their homes. One family had electricity in the home, but had special permission from the church on account of medical needs. It was all very fascinating.
The Amish shun technology for 2 main reasons. (1) Like you said, things that break their ideal society. They want to encourage the family, community, etc.. But also (2) Things that risk their societal independence. #2 was a surprise to me, and I think it's a lesser-known aspect, but makes sense. Their persecution in the late 1600s & early 1700s in Europe is core to their cultural identity. Shunning modern ways is a way to buffer themselves against a recurrence and ensure long-term safety. They can be and are very open to adopting modern ways, but they need time (often decades or more) to assess and allow modern ways to be proven. In that sense, they're not shunning technology so much as they are sticking with what's been proven to work -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it! The horse and buggy has been proven as a viable long-term solution, so why switch? Adopting modern vehicles puts them at risk, because they then become dependent on global supply chains, which are not proven to be long-term reliable.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 161 ms ] threadPimp my buggy (led lights): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ3Z_0aKWyY
Etsy swag: https://www.etsy.com/market/amish_made
I am positively uproarious, Hochstetler!
Well, certainly, but so are other vehicles you shun. I don’t get it, but I don’t really need to, either.
They don't consider just the benefit but the downside.
The Chinese government restricted video games; the US gov may punt on TikTok. It comes up a lot, it's just that Capitalism is trying pretty damn hard to shove this tech down your throat. By comparison, the Amish are pretty much disconnected from the modern capitalist world, except when they have to be.
Like kicking your ball out of a buried lie in a sand trap when you’re a 32-handicap.
When you can't get electricity for your e-bike, it's a large, heavy, but still functional bicycle.
If you build your society around automobiles as a form of transportation, you become critically dependent on enormous supply chains beyond your control. Collapse those supply chains, and modern America would be uninhabitable without the automobile.
If you build your society around e-bikes as a form of transportation, you'll be... Mildly inconvenienced if those supply chains break down.
One of the factors that many Amish groups use when deciding to adopt novel technology is determining how reliant that would make them on the outside world. Automobiles generally have a very hard time passing this test. Bicycles, and electric bicycles have a much easier time.
I've also never heard of having no choice but buying into a predatory 20% APR loan to buy a bicycle.
You tell me, how well has, say, reliance on foreign fossil fuels worked out for Germany last year? What if the winter were a few degrees colder? Or in the US, during the oil shocks? How well is Russia's reliance on trade with the rest of the world, and the decline of its industrial base working out for it?
If you have concerns about the Amish community, tradition, or lifestyle, I’m sure they’re more interesting than the philosophical gotcha games that one could target at anyone.
And more generally I am criticizing the fetishization of self-reliance in its many forms (preppers, bunker builders, gun ownership, etc.) that is so popular with some people. It is a fundamentally nearsighted privilege by selectively ignoring other forms of reliance. Self reliance is not an attitude of resilience, it is one of isolation, selfishness and ruthless competition.
It is precisely the goals for which people came together in cooperation that are humanities greatest achievements. Cooperation and interdependence are higher moral virtues.
For some definition of functional.
I really do not enjoy using my electric bicycle without electric assistance. Something about the electric engine makes it really heavy to use without that assistance.
I’d much rather have a bike that didn’t use electricity in the first place.
Given that ebikes are more efficient than bikes, and bikes are more efficient than walking/cars/trains, the ebike seems like a fantastic piece of kit.
(Plus, the added benefits of cardiovascular exercise, which it has been shown is still present in ebikes.)
Not mine. It has pedals but they are not enough to actually make it move, except downhill. It has a fixed gear ratio.
And there are plenty of e-bikes with no pedals at all.
> I've also never heard of having no choice but buying into a predatory 20% APR loan to buy a bicycle.
You are not required to do that with a car either.
> Collapse those supply chains, and modern America would be uninhabitable without the automobile.
The automobile is the least of your issue. There would be no food or water either.
That's a moped, not an ebike.
I agree with your points about car loans and supply chains, though.
This source is from the UK but applies similarly
https://www.thebikeinsurer.co.uk/learner-guides/scooter-vs-m...
On the other hand, I have seen models with holes next to the transmission that can accept a pair of removable pedals stowed under the seat. Completely worthless for locomotion, but sufficient to be classified as a bicycle for legal reasons.
It doesn't sound like you have an e-bike, and an e-bike definitionally then has pedals
Globally, ebikes are generally broken into two classifications based on whether they are pedal assisted or throttled, with some additional classifications for high speed throttled ebikes.
There do exist low power, throttle only ebikes but they are comparatively rare, and typically classified as a electric motorbike or electric motorcycles depending on jurisdiction. Ontario, for instance, classifies these as "Nopeds". (haha).
In general, broadly, an ebike has pedals and either pedal assistance or a throttle (or both) and can be ridden without the motor. Regional language of course exists, much like how parts of the US call all soda "coke", even sodas like Mountain Dew. They aren't wrong, per se, because regionally they are understood, but they are hardly standard.
Sufficient but not necessary. You can build enormous supply chains on ships and trains just fine
> That aligns well with electric bicycles, which have small batteries that are easily charged by equally small solar panels.
> Mullet’s bike shop is entirely off-grid, with two dozen solar panels on the roof to power the store’s electricity. Public e-bike charging stations are also becoming more popular in Amish country, which are simple to create with a series of outdoor weather-protected 120VAC outlets.
It's really cool that what Amish actually care about is avoiding over-dependence. To me it kind of feels like all the people here who self-host their emails etc. — it's not because they shun the technology itself, they just want to be in control of their entire stack.
In some ways, doesn't this put the Amish squarely in the "hacker" demographic?
Yes. You might enjoy this article [1].
[1] https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
I just smile and nod.
..huh? It’s not like the US is importing Amish from other countries, we’re allowing people who want to immigrate to work here (albeit too slowly). I don’t get this argument.
> Amish Elder to assign you a nice Amish woman
This is so far from my own beliefs in individual liberty I’m not sure how to engage frankly
> I mean really, so much anxiety over the Amish, who have they ever harmed?
By the looks of it, women
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(Actually, if you think about it, it isn't a necessary condition for a good HN comment either, since people need to be free to make mistakes. But I digress.)
Edit: People sometimes make the argument that because they're "pointing out facts", whatever else they say or do is ok. This is not the case. Past explanations at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
But some communities are very welcoming and open minded, and everyone can leave or join (temporarily at first). It really depends, I only know one community, influenced by the 70s pacifists movements, i really like them, but I know they aren't the majority.
Some of his content is benign, but he also discusses the epidemic of child abuse (including sexual), rampant female illiteracy, and the general cruelty of Amish culture.
Rumspringa (where applicable) does some of this, but we all know what Rumspringa is actually for. It's a hormone-fuelled binge on life, not a focus on how the rest of the world works, day to day.
Probably not…
Almost all e-bikes can, at the very least, be used without battery power. Some can even be essentially "de-electrified" if need be. The fail state for an e-bike is "slightly less convenient."
And the ship has sailed on lithium batteries -- cell phones are permitted in limited contexts.
I would say: "No."
Hacking is about making objects (very often computers in a general sense, but hacking is not restricted to it) do things that the creator did not intend them to do, and is often against the intention of the creator of the object.
In this sense, a central component of what makes hacking what it is, is subverting things.
Amish culture is, on the other hand, about obeying the rules of their culture. So, what the Amish do is self-sufficiency, but at most very rarely hacking.
It’s a bit of irony that Amish communities are using a technologically superior means of urban transit than the average American suburb.
Why not? I used to commute 13 km (almost exactly 8 miles) each way on a traditional bike. When the weather was nice, I often took one of the more scenic and much longer routes back home.
I grew up in Knox County, Ohio, just next to Holmes County. I heard of many Amish families owning a van, but not driving it themselves, usually opting for an "englishman"[0] neighbor to drive them into town or wherever.
[0] The Amish term for non-Amish people.
Like the article says, not all Amish follow the same rules, nor do they abstain entirely from electricity (only some do). For example, it’s very popular for some Amish to have phones and do business with locals via FaceBook.
Would be wild to see one of my old neighbors now, cruising down a dirt road on an electric bike, holding onto his straw hat.
I have no direct evidence, but I've watched & read things explaining this in a way that makes much more sense, including this use of ebikes.
The Amish shun things that break their ideal society. They choose to have a single phone in a public place to encourage familial and closely knit interactions only. They avoid cars because cars encourage long distance interactions over local ones. They choose to have a computer for running their business that is not used for entertainment, to encourage closely knit interactions. They choose to not have a fridge so the family gathers for meals at specific times, and you can't just raid the fridge on your own.
The technological restrictions are means to an end, not the end goal.
There are multiple "orders" of Amish: The Swartzentruber, Beachy, New Order, and others. There are also Mennonites (with their own variety of orders) which are closely related to the Amish. Different orders have different views towards technology. Most of the individuals we were around rode e-bikes and all carried cell phones (flip, not smart). We were told to feel free to take as many photos as we wanted, but please not of people (outside of my party). Several had electricity in their barns, but not their homes. One family had electricity in the home, but had special permission from the church on account of medical needs. It was all very fascinating.
The Amish shun technology for 2 main reasons. (1) Like you said, things that break their ideal society. They want to encourage the family, community, etc.. But also (2) Things that risk their societal independence. #2 was a surprise to me, and I think it's a lesser-known aspect, but makes sense. Their persecution in the late 1600s & early 1700s in Europe is core to their cultural identity. Shunning modern ways is a way to buffer themselves against a recurrence and ensure long-term safety. They can be and are very open to adopting modern ways, but they need time (often decades or more) to assess and allow modern ways to be proven. In that sense, they're not shunning technology so much as they are sticking with what's been proven to work -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it! The horse and buggy has been proven as a viable long-term solution, so why switch? Adopting modern vehicles puts them at risk, because they then become dependent on global supply chains, which are not proven to be long-term reliable.