The article says: "Shouldn’t we all be paid proportionally to the value we produce and our time."
If your work is directly contributing to that value, then sure. But in the example given (a machine that prints $100 vs $1 bills), the work is exactly the same. If you expect to be paid more to work on the more expensive machine, another worker would surely undercut you.
I don't think it is "bogus" to be paid for work and not take a share of the profits. I have specifically requested this arrangement at various startups, even when offered stock. If you want to be compensated with some sort of stock or royalties, you are making a bet on the future success of the business.
Apple has become one of the most successful companies ever, while building quality products. Their products are thoughtfully designed by obsessive designers and engineers, the best of the best. Apple products would make a great "USA souvenir" if not for the fact that they are already available worldwide.
> Apple has become one of the most successful companies ever, while building quality products. Their products are thoughtfully designed by obsessive designers and engineers, the best of the best.
Sure Apple's may look like "quality products" if you compare them to current products offered by competitors. But the article goes beyond that scope.
We are evolving into a a consumerist society where we don't expect our products to last more than a couple of years. Take the Apple TV for instance. As soon as you buy it, its value decreases and never gains value back. There is very little chance that its value ever goes back up (except maybe if some hobbyists in 2075 will be interested in collecting them). Compare that to the Fender guitar or the Schwinn bycicle mentionned in the article.
I agree with the author that we should demand higher quality from our products and not go for the shiny thing at a (barely) affordabel price all the time.
In the case of technological products, make no mistake: the consumer does not want products to last 10 years.
You can surely run a 10 year old computer, but what are you going to do with it? Does anyone want a 5 year old cell phone?
So long as we continue to make advancements at the pace we're moving, there is no demand for consumer electronics that last that long. So long as each generation gets cheaper or better (which for the most part is true) and we figure out a decent recycling process (and I think we have) let's just keep moving.
I think it's a very fair point in other, slower-innovating industries.
Yes, you are right that Apple delivers world class products. But I think the souvenir/uniqueness test is still important. Because when you look at an American like company Apple, a lot of the mp3 player concept was invented in South Korea. Their post-1997 product design was launched by Sir Jonathan Ive, a Brit.
By having a product unique to ones culture it tends to speak about the domestic production and development of the item.
I agree with you that proportional payment might not be the best. I agree some compensation for the value produced, as you said, seems more just.
This article is a little ridiculous. It assumes that marketing/sales generates no value, that engineering/making things is the sole value creator.
Anyone who's ever tried selling something knows that building something is not even half the battle. Putting engineering on a pedestal above all others serves no useful purpose (I say that as an engineer myself).
I stated in my "Sources of the Economy" that marketing is essential to the economy. I partially agree, marketing can generate wealth indirectly by creating demand, but marketing only creates wealth when the end product is used for something functional.
If I market a music band, I create no wealth, I facilitate the exchange of wealth. I am not saying that this is bad, but I am saying that the creator is the basis on which everyone else operates.
I agree value can technically be created at the base level by controlling production of crops and things. You are right, but still this is dependent on the producer.
@bwarp you are right, engineers usually have clients and contracts for which they build.
I've actually got a blog post in the works about this whole idea of value, and who "creates" value as opposed to "facilitating the exchange of value" (that's often regarded as inferior, but I would suggest that it's not). The line between the two is harder to draw than you'd think, anyway. Is art really creating value, or is it just facilitating things? Is building a physical product really creating value? From an environmental point of view, every physical product creating is destroying value, or at best turning one type of value into another. Is writing software creating value?
When you really dig into it, this idea of "creating value" is pretty damn complicated...
Send me the blog post when you get around to it. I considered writing software the same as creating a machine. It allows us to access/construct the things we need.
Value is all about perception. Something valuable to one man might be junk to another. Being a good engineer is about creating things that your target market will value.
The author seemed to like one off artistic creations over mass produced goods. if it wasn't for mass production, there is no way we will have the quality of life we have today.
ricksta, I couldn't fit the definition of value into my post but I mention it in my previous post.
Mass production is something I didn't clearly define. You are right. The point I made was that increasing the "quality" in quality of life has meant a decrease in value to the consumer with increasing profits for the heads of companies who convince consumers they are saving money by buying poor-quality.
I answer this by my question "If you believe you have a high quality of life, how many things around you will be worth something in 30 years?" If nothing, it is an illusion.
I value quality, quality defined as something that will remain functional. If we no longer have to design for longevity and function engineering will wither, because consumers won't be willing to pay for the value engineers invest in making things beautiful (long-lasting).
Suppose I am an oil engineer, and I develop some highly technical breakthrough in oil extraction. Is this good, because I am an artisan, and am deeply invested in a very challenging problem? Or is it bad because this invention essentially earns me an infinitesimal fraction on each gallon of gas sold, e.g. "siphoning a little amount of money from a lot of people"?
I am not really sure I understand the distinction that the author is trying to draw.
Siphoning is to extract something with out giving back. An ideal economy is exchanging wealth for wealth. Selling oil/gas to someone is not siphoning, because they receive value (the ability to transport themselves, make goods) in exchange for their money. My earlier post explains some of these concepts
> I admit there is no product from the US that is worth much and is unique
A few things wrong with this statement:
1) The US is large. New York City and San Francisco have very different cultural identities. They also span a distance roughly 1000 miles longer than London to Moscow. What is something that is worth much and uniquely European?
2) The US is an amalgam of many other cultures. There are very few things that are both culturally unique to America and tangible. Here is a man who makes hand-made custom knives [1] in Brooklyn. What about knives are uniquely American? What tangible products are uniquely American? The only thing I can really think of are Winchester rifles.
3) And for that matter, what is uniquely German about artisan bread? What is uniquely Iranian about baklava?
Not to make a joke, but after asking me for a souvenir idea my roommate's German boyfriend said "...a gun?"
1)Germany is large too with different dialects. The point was that the US once produced these things (guitars, bicycles, etc) now we don't. And the younger people who can produce them are wising up and taking jobs in finance. The BBC made a documentary about this just this year.
Fender Guitars was sold to CBS Corporation and quickly mass produced with cheaper woods.
European: Tag-Heuer, Zeno Basel Watches, smaller watch makers, furniture, there are still towns with thriving silverware companies in Southwest Germany
2)Every country is an amalgam of cultures, Yes Winchester rifles of Jonathan Browning are definitely American
3)They use different, more expensive grains (rye, whole wheat) and sourdoughs which do exist in the US but only in a few locations. Baklava is hard to find outside college towns and metro areas in the US, this makes it unique
No European country is even remotely close to the US in terms of diversity. The US is a nation of immigrants. There is no American 'people' in the same way there is a German people. America is not a nation-state. Germany has many different areas with different dialects but these are indigenous to Germany.
> the point was that the US once produced these things (guitars, bicycles, etc) now we don't.
Ctrl + f 'USA', many are defunct yes, but many are not. You are factually incorrect.
> They use different, more expensive grains (rye, whole wheat) and sourdoughs which do exist in the US but only in a few locations.
Not only do bakeries exist in the US that use locally grown whole wheat and rye, bakeries also have the option of importing these ingredients from areas that do have whole wheat and rye. Have you never had a New York sourdough bagel?
> Baklava is hard to find outside college towns and metro areas in the US, this makes it unique
Baklava is hardly unique to Iran unless you expressly call it 'Iranian baklava'. And if you do that, why not call American-made baklava, 'American baklava'?
1,2) Your point was "large" in terms of distinct regions, I think implying that the US has a harder time to have our products accepted as opposed to a more homogeneous society. I think diversity and culture is a separate issue.
I dont have experience marketing products in Germany, but like I said almost every country has unique
3) The bicycle companies you listed, most USA brands have shipped production overseas do to labor prices. Off the top of my head, I can think of Trek and Cannondale as the only true mass produced bicycle manufacturers left in the United States. I am not saying there is something not good about the US. I am saying that the lack in quality demanded has left us wish cheaper products that can't demand the prices that will employ engineers. In turn, young engineers are leaving to the finance sector. Here's an excerpt from the BBC documentary.
4. "Bakery" in the US means cakes, brownies, and cookies not artisan breads which requires fairly skilled workers to make. Only in Connecticut, Western Massachusetts, San Fran, Boston, St. Louis, and New York can you really find artisan bakeries in the US.
5) You are right baklava is not unique to Iran, but the Iranian spices used were unique to this Baklava. The point is that the consumer demanded/expected a level of quality which is unique to their culture.
> I am saying that the lack in quality demanded has left us wish cheaper products that can't demand the prices that will employ engineers.
If you actually click through those links on the page, you'll find that many are local hand-made bicycle manufacturers. I don't see how mass production is related to 'quality demand' or why out sourced products are necessarily inferior in quality. Certainly Apple products are not inferior in quality. In fact the argument you are making about out sourcing is a completely different argument.
> Only in Connecticut, Western Massachusetts, San Fran, Boston, St. Louis, and New York can you really find artisan bakeries in the US.
In my small rural county of Gloucestershire there are over 60 languages spoken. (This is a county with a population of about 800,000 people; spread out over a large rural geographic area).
Here's a short list of languages spoken by school children.
Yes, yes you still do. Iron horse, Kona, Fuji, Cannondale.... Mesa, Fryette, DrZ, Carr, divided by 13, 65amp, 2Rock, Fuchs, Lovepedal, Catalinbread, Earthquaker Dev, Devi Ever, Death by Audio, CMATMODS, Dwarfcraft... Lollar, Lindy Fralin... etc etc etc
Need I go on?
> Germany is large too with different dialects
Sorry to burst your romantic bubble but... more or less slightly different dialects yes, but still it is one culture. Austria is even smaller and we have a TON of dialects and even parts with different languages. And Germany is actually pretty small, most towns are nowhere as huge as your megacities and people here live close together, I wish I had as much space as you guys do.
I rescind my statement about there being no product from the US that has value and is unique, which would in turn spawn the need for non-software engineers. Peavey Amps is such a product. I don't accept the "we are too large excuse"...China is large and has unique products, but like I said the US does have unique products. I could have used better examples...
But just to answer some side notes that were mentioned:
First I am not talking about small two or three men teams of engineers, my post referred to engineering companies who can support a workforce as a result of consumer demand.
>Yes, yes you still do
Damn you MTBers :) This makes sense, we invented mountain biking so yes.
I was focused more on companies who design, produce and research bikes here in the USA because this produces jobs.
When I mentioned Schwinn, remember Schwinn employed 1000-2000 people. I consider Trek and Cannondale to be in the same level as Schwinn. Trek actually recruits mechanical engineers. Peavy Amps at one time recruited engineers, but the main question is "Does Catalinbread recruit engineers, et. al?"
A lot of those companies are small offices with production coming from Taiwan or China so the impact on Engineers here in the US is minimal.
> Germany is large too with different dialects
Slightly different? Do you consider a Bavarian accent similar to a Schwebish accent? Let's not get lost...
Anyway, does this smallness account for the fact that Germany has unique cultural products like certain varieties of rye bread, cheese, balsamic vinegar, or watches.
I have to say, I agree with your general resentment but I had to set those examples straight because they actually do not support your point.
Most of those small, boutique shops probably don't recruit a lot of people, I am sure of that. But in turn they source material or services from other small/middle-sized companies, usually in the USA. But I guess most of that designing, producing and researching is going on in the software and electronics sector though examples like Apple show just how much they outsourced to China. Also, I am not sure how much R&D you have in the automotive industry or plant construction or petrochemistry or other more "classical" industries in the USA? There are definitely a lot of strong players in those fields over here, middle to large sized. Maybe those industries would make better examples for your article?
> Anyway, does this smallness account for the fact that Germany has unique cultural products like certain varieties of rye bread, cheese, balsamic vinegar, or watches.
Austria is even smaller, we still have at least as much variety of rye bread, beer, cheese, meat products, balsamic and other foods. Hobbits would probably go to Austria for all the food, beer and wine and our Gemütlichkeit! :) You will not find a country with that many different kinds of wine and there is a HUGE market for organic food, people there care about that much more than they do here in Germany. In Austria you will also find steel and saw mills, plant construction and automation, a TON of automotive engineering and manufacturing, also weapons manufacturing and the list could go on.... I think what accounts for it is rather the history and the fact that central Europe has always been one big melting pot for different cultures and people.
But the USA, you are pretty damn heavy in the whole entertainment industry and all things IT, PC and software... and you still have Boeing, too. And the whole arms or arms-related industry!
Disclaimer: I'm an Austrian working in Germany for a couple of years now... :)
Understood, my roommate vented every time someone misrepresented Germany or god forbid said "European". I do agree, I could have had a better transition with better examples and explanations why I used the examples.
It's not large on US scale. And, compared to the US, it's a monoculture.
Seriously - there's more diversity in a San Jose strip mall than in a major German city. (Dialects? I've got several restaurants where the vast majority of the patrons speak different languages within 1 mile of my house.)
> What is something that is worth much and uniquely European?
Champagne; whiskey; other (often regionally protected) foods.
Sabatier knives (when made of the right steel in Thiers); Sheffield Steel knives
British small garage sports cars (Ariel Atom; Bristol; etc etc)
I don't know how to say this in the style of HackerNews, but I feel the need to anyway: Your ignorance of other nations is weakening any point you have.
> What tangible products are uniquely American?
There are plenty of examples. Certain other cars; some guitars; bourbon; shaker style furniture. That's a list off-the-cuff; with a bit of research I'd be able to find a few more.
There are these types of small sports car makers across europe: Gillet; Spyker; comarth; sergio bartola; etc. Move up to bigger brands and you have ferrari, lamborghini, Koenigsegg etc.
This wide range of car makers, from all across Europe, produce cars of a similar style distinct from Asian or US makers.
> Making quality products for consumers [..] is dying.
This is a tired old line. The art and craft movement rose a century ago on the same ideas.
But the examples he gives are bizarre - Fender?? Fender is a text-book example of the strength of engineering things to be mass-produced.
Fender guitars were conceived to be mass-produced. Where Gibson makes a big deal about the supposed tone benefit of a guitar with a continuous neck to the base of the noise-box, the Stratocaster has always had a bolt-on-neck. The paint is Dupont car paint. Yet Clapton prefers it to the hand-built stuff. Better yet, if you break one you can just go and buy another off-the-shelf that matches it.
Some people pay a lot of money for old fenders, but people make strange purchase decisions when it comes to music and art.
I think people want to believe that hand-made things are better (particularly when they are committed to hobbies to build things that have no market), but I rarely see an example of it.
I think people want to believe that hand-made things are better (particularly when they are committed to hobbies to build things that have no market), but I rarely see an example of it.
Food, clothes and jewels are the first things that come to my mind.
While the author's examples are horrible (German bread? Iranian baklava?), he has an important point.
When you have an expanding economy, such as the US has had for the last 60 years, marketing trumps manufacturing. People don't want any shoe, they want a Nike. But we've changed to a contracting economy now, where manufacturing trumps marketing. People care less about the label and more about having a decent shoe. (Note, I'm not talking year-by-year ups and downs, but 'bigger picture' movement.)
During the expanding economy, America outsourced manufacturing to focus on marketing, since it was what was important. And now that things have reversed, it's in a bad spot.
What's wrong with cheap things? Is there really something so terribly wrong with the ability of everyone to acquire basic, somewhat decent functional furniture, clothing, entertainment electronics, household appliances, and automobiles cheaply? Would it be better if only more expensive, long-lasting, luxury goods that most people couldn't afford existed?
We've lived in that world before, it wasn't a better world for anyone. Since the same people who could have afforded expensive, high quality goods back then can today (a tiny subset of the population).
I may not like the style of most of the furniture at IKEA, but I am glad that it exists so that people of modest means can outfit their homes and spend the rest of their money on items that have a greater impact on their quality of life.
I would address the other points in the piece, but I thought this point was worth making on its own.
InclindedPlane, When I thought about this a few years back I bought a Zeno-Basel watch from Switzerland, Late last year I saw the price of my watch shoot up 50% in month due to the Swiss Franc/US Dollar exchange rate.
I don't want to tell anyone what to do, but it is important to say that quality products have a history holding their value.
The statement about the same rich people can purchase the high quality items. This is wrong. People today have more purchasing power and buy more cheaply made expensive things things. People have more money today in the US, but we also spend more with 4 cars, running shoes, $3000 TVs
Will the things you buy have any value in years to come? Does this entire situation of demanding cheaper products decrease the value of an engineer.
There is nothing wrong with the consumer demanding sustaining value. And price is not necessarily a cost, it can be an investment.
>And price is not necessarily a cost, it can be an investment
not in consumer electronics its not. Quality products continue to exist, but availability of cheaper, but functional lower quality goods has its place too. Just an example: I'm a graduate student, so I greatly benefit from this, since I can buy a cheap product, use it for a few years and then throw it away without feeling too bad when I move out of the University town.
I don't think this is unique to the US, and not unique to the last 10 years either.
Consider this: Of all the products made a 100 years ago, only 1% was made to last for a long time. Right now the other 99% is broken and thrown away and the 1% is still being used.
We only SEE old products which are well built. That doesn't mean all old products are that way.
There are still products being build which we can use for a long time, but they don't stand out and will only be noticed after a tens of years.
"The old days of having artisans build guitars for Fender or build bicycles for Schwinn was the old model; i.e. giving a niche market high quality products. These quality products have usually gained value (a Fender Stratocaster in 1964 sold for $289, today it sells for +$23000; a Schwinn Paramount in 1966 sold for $245, today sells for $2500). Inflation from 1963 to 2011 is about 600%. Money spent on products was money invested."
Having ridden Schwinn bikes as a kid, I must say they were a good example of mid-century American engineering. They were simple, strong, and hard to break. On the flat ground of northern Ohio, I didn't miss gears. But would you want to pedal a heavy, one-speed bike up the hills of Washington, San Francisco, or Seattle? And to the best of my knowledge, they were produced by men who would not have described themselves as artisans.
Consider an automotive equivalent, say a 1966 Ford Falcon. It got decent gas mileage for its day, and it was apt to last and last. It was handsome, and it had a distinctive look, something missing in lots of more recent cars. But who but a hobbyist would want to drive on now? In every way a 2012 car is better, whether made in Stuttgart or Detroit--the engines and transmissions are incomparably better. The safety systems are incomparably better.
That is also an odd notion of investment. Putting $200 into GE shares in 1966 is one thing--presumably the investment goes toward paying for new factories, new equipment, etc. to build products and make money. Putting the same money into a Schwinn bike invests in private transportation. That the bike gains in value results not from all the potential passenger miles one can rack up, but from the disappearance of all the thousands of identical bikes over the years.
> What souvenirs can I bring back from the United States to Germany, I had nothing to say.
The joke is on him: pretty much ALL typical American exports and products are extremely common parts of daily life over here in Euroland... we have your music, movies, tv shows, video games, fast food restaurants, soda pop, clothes, cigarettes, etc. So, yes, considering this it might really be hard finding something to bring home he really cannot buy here anyway.
> The old days of having artisans build guitars for Fender or build bicycles for Schwinn was the old model; i.e. giving a niche market high quality products. These quality products have usually gained value
This is an extremely bad example and a wrong conclusion.
First, there still are a TON of very high quality "artisans" building guitars, guitar amps and effects for the "boutique" niche market and most of them come from the USA and they pride themselves on their products, the quality and that it is done by hand, in the USA. I am sure you will find the same is true for other industries and markets. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they aren't there.
Second, the craze over Fender and Gibson vintage guitars has MUCH less to do with real, actual quality and I say this as a guitarist. Be realistic. This is a vintage collectors craze over very iconic products which have become extremely rare because before the vintage craze, they were a dime a dozen - see Clapton's legendary "Blackie" was bolted together from parts of 3 guitars he paid a 100 bucks for, total. Most people didn't store them or consider them valuable at all, they just played them and modded them and when they broke they were thrown away, nothing special about them. They were mass products, FAR from what those USA boutique luthiers do today. But it is EXTREMELY rare to find a mint condition guitar from that era. Actual production quality, quality assurance and longevity of guitars made by USA Fender today are arguably WAY better with WAY less variance but everybody wants a 60's Strat... for a fraction of the cost of a vintage one, I can get one of those boutique luthiers to build me a more reliable, more durable and better made perfect replica. Sentimental values aside, there is a thorough understanding what made a 50s or 60s Strat and you can get virtually in-distinguishably close, including a used look as if it was 50 years old. So, this is just like saying a mint-condition vintage Mustang was a WAY better car than the ones they build nowadays.
The value those items have NOW does not come from superior engineering or production. They have sentimental and iconic value and they are rare.
While we are at it: where did the internet and PCs come from? What about 90% of all programming languages and operating systems used nowadays? Who brought us our beloved iPods, iPhones, iPads and apps?
Okay, you have a very good point about the guitars and the inflated values. a $32000 guitar must play itself. This is something I call "apparent value"
>While we are at it: where did the internet and PCs come from? What about 90% of all programming languages and operating systems used nowadays?
Good question. They came from people at Microsoft, Mathematica, Xerox (former MIT researchers), Bell Labs, and ITT. You are right. But in the article I wrote specifically that software engineers have kept their ranks and continue to prosper.
After making reference to artisan bread from Germany and baklava from Iran, the author asks, "How many items in our homes today will gain value over the next 30 years?"
I don't want to know what that bread or baklava is going to look like in 30 years.
I think you're just not looking hard enough to find the quality you're looking for. While there are certainly mass produced bicycles, guitar amps, motorcycles and other things that cater to the need of the masses, there are also craftsman made examples of all of those. Any decent sized city is likely to have a bicycle shop that custom makes frames to order. They're much more expensive, but I imagine they provide plenty of value to the customer who orders it.
In respect to the idea that there are no uniquely American souvenirs I also think you're being a little too quick to jump to judgement. Along with cowboy boots, as was mentioned, a possibility is a hat, or a big metal belt buckle like cowboys like to wear. An American football jersy, perhaps. Military surplus items, especially if branded with a 'US Army' or similar could work for some people's tastes. If the friend a skateboarder or snowboarder there are plenty of companies that have locally well known surf and skate shops with branded shirts (think RonJon) or skate decks.
Five minutes and google with give you more independent US guitar and amplifier manufacturers than you would know what to do with. I can't imagine that the same can't be said for bicycles.
Of course, few among us are going to be able to throw down $5-6k for a souvenir - either now or back when the equivalent of todays's $5-6k was a hundred odd dollars.
49 comments
[ 0.20 ms ] story [ 114 ms ] threadIf your work is directly contributing to that value, then sure. But in the example given (a machine that prints $100 vs $1 bills), the work is exactly the same. If you expect to be paid more to work on the more expensive machine, another worker would surely undercut you.
I don't think it is "bogus" to be paid for work and not take a share of the profits. I have specifically requested this arrangement at various startups, even when offered stock. If you want to be compensated with some sort of stock or royalties, you are making a bet on the future success of the business.
Apple has become one of the most successful companies ever, while building quality products. Their products are thoughtfully designed by obsessive designers and engineers, the best of the best. Apple products would make a great "USA souvenir" if not for the fact that they are already available worldwide.
Sure Apple's may look like "quality products" if you compare them to current products offered by competitors. But the article goes beyond that scope.
We are evolving into a a consumerist society where we don't expect our products to last more than a couple of years. Take the Apple TV for instance. As soon as you buy it, its value decreases and never gains value back. There is very little chance that its value ever goes back up (except maybe if some hobbyists in 2075 will be interested in collecting them). Compare that to the Fender guitar or the Schwinn bycicle mentionned in the article.
I agree with the author that we should demand higher quality from our products and not go for the shiny thing at a (barely) affordabel price all the time.
You can surely run a 10 year old computer, but what are you going to do with it? Does anyone want a 5 year old cell phone?
So long as we continue to make advancements at the pace we're moving, there is no demand for consumer electronics that last that long. So long as each generation gets cheaper or better (which for the most part is true) and we figure out a decent recycling process (and I think we have) let's just keep moving.
I think it's a very fair point in other, slower-innovating industries.
By having a product unique to ones culture it tends to speak about the domestic production and development of the item.
I agree with you that proportional payment might not be the best. I agree some compensation for the value produced, as you said, seems more just.
Anyone who's ever tried selling something knows that building something is not even half the battle. Putting engineering on a pedestal above all others serves no useful purpose (I say that as an engineer myself).
Engineering is solving a problem or need.
Product creation is trying to artificially create a need.
Marketing and sales get involved in the latter. Engineering is a byproduct of need and requires no marketing.
If I market a music band, I create no wealth, I facilitate the exchange of wealth. I am not saying that this is bad, but I am saying that the creator is the basis on which everyone else operates.
I agree value can technically be created at the base level by controlling production of crops and things. You are right, but still this is dependent on the producer.
@bwarp you are right, engineers usually have clients and contracts for which they build.
When you really dig into it, this idea of "creating value" is pretty damn complicated...
The author seemed to like one off artistic creations over mass produced goods. if it wasn't for mass production, there is no way we will have the quality of life we have today.
Mass production is something I didn't clearly define. You are right. The point I made was that increasing the "quality" in quality of life has meant a decrease in value to the consumer with increasing profits for the heads of companies who convince consumers they are saving money by buying poor-quality.
I answer this by my question "If you believe you have a high quality of life, how many things around you will be worth something in 30 years?" If nothing, it is an illusion.
I value quality, quality defined as something that will remain functional. If we no longer have to design for longevity and function engineering will wither, because consumers won't be willing to pay for the value engineers invest in making things beautiful (long-lasting).
I am not really sure I understand the distinction that the author is trying to draw.
A few things wrong with this statement:
1) The US is large. New York City and San Francisco have very different cultural identities. They also span a distance roughly 1000 miles longer than London to Moscow. What is something that is worth much and uniquely European?
2) The US is an amalgam of many other cultures. There are very few things that are both culturally unique to America and tangible. Here is a man who makes hand-made custom knives [1] in Brooklyn. What about knives are uniquely American? What tangible products are uniquely American? The only thing I can really think of are Winchester rifles.
3) And for that matter, what is uniquely German about artisan bread? What is uniquely Iranian about baklava?
[1] http://thisismadebyhand.com/film/the_knife_maker
Fender Guitars was sold to CBS Corporation and quickly mass produced with cheaper woods.
European: Tag-Heuer, Zeno Basel Watches, smaller watch makers, furniture, there are still towns with thriving silverware companies in Southwest Germany 2)Every country is an amalgam of cultures, Yes Winchester rifles of Jonathan Browning are definitely American
3)They use different, more expensive grains (rye, whole wheat) and sourdoughs which do exist in the US but only in a few locations. Baklava is hard to find outside college towns and metro areas in the US, this makes it unique
The US is 27 times the size of Germany.
> Every country is an amalgam of cultures,
No European country is even remotely close to the US in terms of diversity. The US is a nation of immigrants. There is no American 'people' in the same way there is a German people. America is not a nation-state. Germany has many different areas with different dialects but these are indigenous to Germany.
> the point was that the US once produced these things (guitars, bicycles, etc) now we don't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bicycle_brands_and_manu...
Ctrl + f 'USA', many are defunct yes, but many are not. You are factually incorrect.
> They use different, more expensive grains (rye, whole wheat) and sourdoughs which do exist in the US but only in a few locations.
Not only do bakeries exist in the US that use locally grown whole wheat and rye, bakeries also have the option of importing these ingredients from areas that do have whole wheat and rye. Have you never had a New York sourdough bagel?
> Baklava is hard to find outside college towns and metro areas in the US, this makes it unique
Baklava is hardly unique to Iran unless you expressly call it 'Iranian baklava'. And if you do that, why not call American-made baklava, 'American baklava'?
England surpasses it.
I dont have experience marketing products in Germany, but like I said almost every country has unique
3) The bicycle companies you listed, most USA brands have shipped production overseas do to labor prices. Off the top of my head, I can think of Trek and Cannondale as the only true mass produced bicycle manufacturers left in the United States. I am not saying there is something not good about the US. I am saying that the lack in quality demanded has left us wish cheaper products that can't demand the prices that will employ engineers. In turn, young engineers are leaving to the finance sector. Here's an excerpt from the BBC documentary.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4081937.stm
4. "Bakery" in the US means cakes, brownies, and cookies not artisan breads which requires fairly skilled workers to make. Only in Connecticut, Western Massachusetts, San Fran, Boston, St. Louis, and New York can you really find artisan bakeries in the US.
But this point was made to establish the uniqueness and quality demanded by the consumer. German Bread as Cultural Heritage: http://www.goethe.de/ges/mol/typ/en8187653.htm
5) You are right baklava is not unique to Iran, but the Iranian spices used were unique to this Baklava. The point is that the consumer demanded/expected a level of quality which is unique to their culture.
If you actually click through those links on the page, you'll find that many are local hand-made bicycle manufacturers. I don't see how mass production is related to 'quality demand' or why out sourced products are necessarily inferior in quality. Certainly Apple products are not inferior in quality. In fact the argument you are making about out sourcing is a completely different argument.
> Only in Connecticut, Western Massachusetts, San Fran, Boston, St. Louis, and New York can you really find artisan bakeries in the US.
Incorrect. http://www.bbga.org/find_members
> The point is that the consumer demanded/expected a level of quality which is unique to their culture.
You were able to glean this insight into Iranian culture because your friend brought you back baklava hand-made with indigenous spices.
In 2009 there were reports Cannondale is going to move production to Asia (http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cannondale-closing-us-...). Did they decide against it? Wikipedia says the production sites are in Vietnam and Taiwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannondale_Bicycle_Corporation#... - second paragraph)
Here's a short list of languages spoken by school children.
(http://www.irespect.net/CIRCLE/EMAS/Languages2001.htm)
Cities such as Bristol or London would be considerably more diverse.
And these people are, mostly, integrated into local communities rather than separated into various ghettos.
Yes, yes you still do. Iron horse, Kona, Fuji, Cannondale.... Mesa, Fryette, DrZ, Carr, divided by 13, 65amp, 2Rock, Fuchs, Lovepedal, Catalinbread, Earthquaker Dev, Devi Ever, Death by Audio, CMATMODS, Dwarfcraft... Lollar, Lindy Fralin... etc etc etc
Need I go on?
> Germany is large too with different dialects
Sorry to burst your romantic bubble but... more or less slightly different dialects yes, but still it is one culture. Austria is even smaller and we have a TON of dialects and even parts with different languages. And Germany is actually pretty small, most towns are nowhere as huge as your megacities and people here live close together, I wish I had as much space as you guys do.
But just to answer some side notes that were mentioned: First I am not talking about small two or three men teams of engineers, my post referred to engineering companies who can support a workforce as a result of consumer demand.
>Yes, yes you still do Damn you MTBers :) This makes sense, we invented mountain biking so yes.
I was focused more on companies who design, produce and research bikes here in the USA because this produces jobs. When I mentioned Schwinn, remember Schwinn employed 1000-2000 people. I consider Trek and Cannondale to be in the same level as Schwinn. Trek actually recruits mechanical engineers. Peavy Amps at one time recruited engineers, but the main question is "Does Catalinbread recruit engineers, et. al?"
A lot of those companies are small offices with production coming from Taiwan or China so the impact on Engineers here in the US is minimal.
> Germany is large too with different dialects Slightly different? Do you consider a Bavarian accent similar to a Schwebish accent? Let's not get lost... Anyway, does this smallness account for the fact that Germany has unique cultural products like certain varieties of rye bread, cheese, balsamic vinegar, or watches.
Most of those small, boutique shops probably don't recruit a lot of people, I am sure of that. But in turn they source material or services from other small/middle-sized companies, usually in the USA. But I guess most of that designing, producing and researching is going on in the software and electronics sector though examples like Apple show just how much they outsourced to China. Also, I am not sure how much R&D you have in the automotive industry or plant construction or petrochemistry or other more "classical" industries in the USA? There are definitely a lot of strong players in those fields over here, middle to large sized. Maybe those industries would make better examples for your article?
> Anyway, does this smallness account for the fact that Germany has unique cultural products like certain varieties of rye bread, cheese, balsamic vinegar, or watches.
Austria is even smaller, we still have at least as much variety of rye bread, beer, cheese, meat products, balsamic and other foods. Hobbits would probably go to Austria for all the food, beer and wine and our Gemütlichkeit! :) You will not find a country with that many different kinds of wine and there is a HUGE market for organic food, people there care about that much more than they do here in Germany. In Austria you will also find steel and saw mills, plant construction and automation, a TON of automotive engineering and manufacturing, also weapons manufacturing and the list could go on.... I think what accounts for it is rather the history and the fact that central Europe has always been one big melting pot for different cultures and people.
But the USA, you are pretty damn heavy in the whole entertainment industry and all things IT, PC and software... and you still have Boeing, too. And the whole arms or arms-related industry!
Disclaimer: I'm an Austrian working in Germany for a couple of years now... :)
It's not large on US scale. And, compared to the US, it's a monoculture.
Seriously - there's more diversity in a San Jose strip mall than in a major German city. (Dialects? I've got several restaurants where the vast majority of the patrons speak different languages within 1 mile of my house.)
Champagne; whiskey; other (often regionally protected) foods.
Sabatier knives (when made of the right steel in Thiers); Sheffield Steel knives
British small garage sports cars (Ariel Atom; Bristol; etc etc)
I don't know how to say this in the style of HackerNews, but I feel the need to anyway: Your ignorance of other nations is weakening any point you have.
> What tangible products are uniquely American?
There are plenty of examples. Certain other cars; some guitars; bourbon; shaker style furniture. That's a list off-the-cuff; with a bit of research I'd be able to find a few more.
British small garage sports cars are uniquely European? You've completely misunderstood my point.
There are these types of small sports car makers across europe: Gillet; Spyker; comarth; sergio bartola; etc. Move up to bigger brands and you have ferrari, lamborghini, Koenigsegg etc.
This wide range of car makers, from all across Europe, produce cars of a similar style distinct from Asian or US makers.
But the examples he gives are bizarre - Fender?? Fender is a text-book example of the strength of engineering things to be mass-produced.
Fender guitars were conceived to be mass-produced. Where Gibson makes a big deal about the supposed tone benefit of a guitar with a continuous neck to the base of the noise-box, the Stratocaster has always had a bolt-on-neck. The paint is Dupont car paint. Yet Clapton prefers it to the hand-built stuff. Better yet, if you break one you can just go and buy another off-the-shelf that matches it.
Some people pay a lot of money for old fenders, but people make strange purchase decisions when it comes to music and art.
I think people want to believe that hand-made things are better (particularly when they are committed to hobbies to build things that have no market), but I rarely see an example of it.
Food, clothes and jewels are the first things that come to my mind.
When you have an expanding economy, such as the US has had for the last 60 years, marketing trumps manufacturing. People don't want any shoe, they want a Nike. But we've changed to a contracting economy now, where manufacturing trumps marketing. People care less about the label and more about having a decent shoe. (Note, I'm not talking year-by-year ups and downs, but 'bigger picture' movement.)
During the expanding economy, America outsourced manufacturing to focus on marketing, since it was what was important. And now that things have reversed, it's in a bad spot.
We've lived in that world before, it wasn't a better world for anyone. Since the same people who could have afforded expensive, high quality goods back then can today (a tiny subset of the population).
I may not like the style of most of the furniture at IKEA, but I am glad that it exists so that people of modest means can outfit their homes and spend the rest of their money on items that have a greater impact on their quality of life.
I would address the other points in the piece, but I thought this point was worth making on its own.
I don't want to tell anyone what to do, but it is important to say that quality products have a history holding their value.
The statement about the same rich people can purchase the high quality items. This is wrong. People today have more purchasing power and buy more cheaply made expensive things things. People have more money today in the US, but we also spend more with 4 cars, running shoes, $3000 TVs
Will the things you buy have any value in years to come? Does this entire situation of demanding cheaper products decrease the value of an engineer.
There is nothing wrong with the consumer demanding sustaining value. And price is not necessarily a cost, it can be an investment.
not in consumer electronics its not. Quality products continue to exist, but availability of cheaper, but functional lower quality goods has its place too. Just an example: I'm a graduate student, so I greatly benefit from this, since I can buy a cheap product, use it for a few years and then throw it away without feeling too bad when I move out of the University town.
Consider this: Of all the products made a 100 years ago, only 1% was made to last for a long time. Right now the other 99% is broken and thrown away and the 1% is still being used.
We only SEE old products which are well built. That doesn't mean all old products are that way.
There are still products being build which we can use for a long time, but they don't stand out and will only be noticed after a tens of years.
Having ridden Schwinn bikes as a kid, I must say they were a good example of mid-century American engineering. They were simple, strong, and hard to break. On the flat ground of northern Ohio, I didn't miss gears. But would you want to pedal a heavy, one-speed bike up the hills of Washington, San Francisco, or Seattle? And to the best of my knowledge, they were produced by men who would not have described themselves as artisans.
Consider an automotive equivalent, say a 1966 Ford Falcon. It got decent gas mileage for its day, and it was apt to last and last. It was handsome, and it had a distinctive look, something missing in lots of more recent cars. But who but a hobbyist would want to drive on now? In every way a 2012 car is better, whether made in Stuttgart or Detroit--the engines and transmissions are incomparably better. The safety systems are incomparably better.
That is also an odd notion of investment. Putting $200 into GE shares in 1966 is one thing--presumably the investment goes toward paying for new factories, new equipment, etc. to build products and make money. Putting the same money into a Schwinn bike invests in private transportation. That the bike gains in value results not from all the potential passenger miles one can rack up, but from the disappearance of all the thousands of identical bikes over the years.
The joke is on him: pretty much ALL typical American exports and products are extremely common parts of daily life over here in Euroland... we have your music, movies, tv shows, video games, fast food restaurants, soda pop, clothes, cigarettes, etc. So, yes, considering this it might really be hard finding something to bring home he really cannot buy here anyway.
> The old days of having artisans build guitars for Fender or build bicycles for Schwinn was the old model; i.e. giving a niche market high quality products. These quality products have usually gained value
This is an extremely bad example and a wrong conclusion.
First, there still are a TON of very high quality "artisans" building guitars, guitar amps and effects for the "boutique" niche market and most of them come from the USA and they pride themselves on their products, the quality and that it is done by hand, in the USA. I am sure you will find the same is true for other industries and markets. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they aren't there.
Second, the craze over Fender and Gibson vintage guitars has MUCH less to do with real, actual quality and I say this as a guitarist. Be realistic. This is a vintage collectors craze over very iconic products which have become extremely rare because before the vintage craze, they were a dime a dozen - see Clapton's legendary "Blackie" was bolted together from parts of 3 guitars he paid a 100 bucks for, total. Most people didn't store them or consider them valuable at all, they just played them and modded them and when they broke they were thrown away, nothing special about them. They were mass products, FAR from what those USA boutique luthiers do today. But it is EXTREMELY rare to find a mint condition guitar from that era. Actual production quality, quality assurance and longevity of guitars made by USA Fender today are arguably WAY better with WAY less variance but everybody wants a 60's Strat... for a fraction of the cost of a vintage one, I can get one of those boutique luthiers to build me a more reliable, more durable and better made perfect replica. Sentimental values aside, there is a thorough understanding what made a 50s or 60s Strat and you can get virtually in-distinguishably close, including a used look as if it was 50 years old. So, this is just like saying a mint-condition vintage Mustang was a WAY better car than the ones they build nowadays.
The value those items have NOW does not come from superior engineering or production. They have sentimental and iconic value and they are rare.
While we are at it: where did the internet and PCs come from? What about 90% of all programming languages and operating systems used nowadays? Who brought us our beloved iPods, iPhones, iPads and apps?
>While we are at it: where did the internet and PCs come from? What about 90% of all programming languages and operating systems used nowadays?
Good question. They came from people at Microsoft, Mathematica, Xerox (former MIT researchers), Bell Labs, and ITT. You are right. But in the article I wrote specifically that software engineers have kept their ranks and continue to prosper.
I don't want to know what that bread or baklava is going to look like in 30 years.
In respect to the idea that there are no uniquely American souvenirs I also think you're being a little too quick to jump to judgement. Along with cowboy boots, as was mentioned, a possibility is a hat, or a big metal belt buckle like cowboys like to wear. An American football jersy, perhaps. Military surplus items, especially if branded with a 'US Army' or similar could work for some people's tastes. If the friend a skateboarder or snowboarder there are plenty of companies that have locally well known surf and skate shops with branded shirts (think RonJon) or skate decks.
Of course, few among us are going to be able to throw down $5-6k for a souvenir - either now or back when the equivalent of todays's $5-6k was a hundred odd dollars.