> Efforts to pass another version of the plan are creating a fissure between Arizona’s business community and these Republicans, and have prompted some pro-business conservatives to join with Democrats and lobbyists for corporations to push for the tax’s renewal.
Seems like dogmatic opposition to taxes is ruining everything.
No, I'm a mega billion dollar corporation that wants to use taxpayer dollars, in fact I demand taxpayer dollars to expand my footprint and profits. Yes, yes, let's blame taxes and not greed.
Corporations aren't charities, and that isn't a problem.
This is corporations exploiting a broken political system, where some politician is always willing to sell out future generations to stay in power for another day.
We would be much better off focusing on that problem than trying to hope people and corporations go against human nature and stop being greedy. Hope is never a good strategy. And leopards don't often change their spots...
Part of, sure, but you have to be very careful using this as a foundation of some kind of larger edifice of reasoning, because some behaviors pretty contrary to greed are also human nature.
"TSMC’s decision to come to Phoenix was made with the impression there would be additional transportation infrastructure built around its site, including lane expansion and a new highway interchange, to help with employee and production transportation, according to people familiar with the company’s thinking. The company is lobbying individual lawmakers and telling them improvements are necessary to operate and grow."
It’s not like they had any other choice. They came to Phoenix because the only other cutting edge fab in the world is in Phoenix. Since their people will be on the other side of the planet, TSMC will need that Phoenix talent pool to have any hope of spinning up their American fab.
TSMC screwed up if that was their plan. All the other Fabs in the valley are about 1.5hr away during rush hour traffic from the new TSMC site. Anyone who wants to move to TSMC has to sell their house and relocate to a much less desirable part of town.
Yeah, I'd be willing to wager Houston would be happy to snap up manufacturing and has plenty of skill in the talent pool. And proximity to Monterrey for cheap labor.
This is the same thing the politicians fight about every time out here. Scottsdale doesn’t want light rail because it will help the “wrong people” get deeper into Scottsdale. Glendale doesn’t want light rail because apparently they just wanted to pay for the stadiums but not actually support any kind of development to take advantage of those stadiums.
Everyone else complains that the light rail is useless and doesn’t go anywhere so why should we pay to expand it.
This opposition is solely focused on opposing more funding to the light rail system and somehow being reframed about TSMC.
This is a two way street, err track. A good chunk of those "wrong people" don't want the rich neighborhoods well connected to them either because then their cost of living goes up and they are forced out and very rarely does that story end with "and my new apartment/commute/job was better". The property owners are the ones who really want the government money spent developing their area.
The really stupid thing about the light rail system, at least in the east valley, is that they could have run a line right up the middle of the 101 from South Chandler to North Scottsdale. Add a bus-fed stop every couple of miles, and that train would likely be packed every day with commuters. Instead, we added a carpool lane that does basically nothing for traffic, and the light rail continues to be basically useless for most people.
Can someone tell me if there's actually any geographical sense in putting a fab in Arizona? I admit it seems like the height of madness to put a fab somewhere with so little water.
Apparently not if they need to build the rail and highway interchanges.
I think what happened is the politicians promised these things to chip manufacturers because they thought the buildout would be a formality. But political reality is taking those promises off the table.
Sounds to me like the great lakes region would make more sense then. Same reason it was industrialized 100 years ago in the first place. Excellent shipping routes, access to copious fresh water. And, yeah, geologically stable.
They should build a fab in Michigan or Ontario. Labour is cheaper up in Canada, too.
If they discharge it through a cooling tower, that counts as not returning it to water basin (note that nuclear plants on the lakes don't have cooling towers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Beach_Nuclear_Plant - which has other problems, but water diversions aren't one of them).
Water supposedly isn't much of an issue after initial setup due to a high recycle rate. Trucking a shitload of water out initially should be a drop in the bucket as far as costs go.
Funny enough, they don't need to truck anything in, since they are right next to a canal, but also have significant water infrastructure that was built to support the site.
Also, its in a water district, where we have really done a great job at managing our resources.
Check out some of the well data [1], [2], [3] since it is really eye opening what you can do with proper resource management.
Absolutely. where the TSMC plant is going there are several things that make it perfect for a fab (I'm a little biased, since I drive by it quite frequently):
- Phoenix is in located inside a water district, meaning there are many restrictions on water usage and an extremely conservative approach to resource management. Fun fact, many of the wells in our area show increases in water [1] to the aquifer from the lows of the 70's/80's (meaning we are putting more water into the aquifer than we are taking out). Additionally, there is a large artificial lake reservoir and the central arizona project canal runs right by the site. Like others have mentioned, the vast majority of the water gets recycled.
- There is an existing high-tech manufacturing base (lots of aerospace, defense and semiconductor infrastructure).
- There is great transportation. There is a suitable airport (KDVT) ~5 miles from the new TSMC plant, which can accommodate jets capable of international flights (for example to taiwan) if they need to fly wafers to offsite packaging. Additionally, I10, I17 and I40 are all readily accessible.
- There is plenty of space for expansion. The site that TSMC located in has a massive amount of space for expansion, its essentially 5 minutes from town, but has miles of open area that can be utilized for future needs.
Low risk of natural disasters, cheap land, proximity to Taiwan, and existing semiconductor suppliers and workforce. Water is religiously recycled so once the plant is 'full' it doesn't use much ongoing.
But this isn't exactly "global corporations" asking taxpayers to foot the bill for plant equipment or whatever, it's them asking the taxpayers to fund public works projects, which seems to be firmly the responsibility of the government to provide.
Why? The taxpayers don't need a fab there, and they won't have to build a highway if they don't build the fab. If I was an average person in Phoenix, I wouldn't want to pay increased taxes so a foreign corporation and wealthy Americans can get paid.
The highway is already built. The voters of Phoenix voted decades ago to pay the sales tax to build it. Right now, it's mostly a road to nowhere which is why TSMC needs a new interchange.
This isn't even a new tax. It's a tax that has been in place for 40 years and has paid for pretty much every freeway mile and light rail track in the area. The tax expires in 2025 and this is a debate over renewing it. If it fails, Phoenix will be Los Angeles with "rush hour" lasting all day in another 10 years.
Ah, ok. I misunderstood because I can’t read the entire article. Sounds like transit funding is at risk, which will also impact the fab, but isn't actually directly related.
The plant construction is well under way and the freeway nearby has already had a lot of recent work on it. I haven't read the article yet, but I've been in that area several times per year for the last 3.5 years.
This is a 40 year old tax, in what way is this an increase? Also this is earmarked specifically for transportation so it has to be spent on things like roads, highways, and mass transit.
If you think sales tax is too high lower the “slush fund” taxes that get tossed around for political favors and empire building.
>send everything overseas in the 90s due to "cost savings", eliminating tens of thousands of jobs post dotcom
>cry that analog cannot compete with taiwan foundries
>now wants these same citizens to fund their return to the states
If electronics are this important to the country and the military to be subsidized by taxpayers, maybe it should be nationalized with open source and open hardware. No patents, no offshoring, no importing, and no exporting allowed. Let the people become producers and create their own mini-semi conductor products with open standards.
50 comments
[ 8.1 ms ] story [ 193 ms ] thread> Efforts to pass another version of the plan are creating a fissure between Arizona’s business community and these Republicans, and have prompted some pro-business conservatives to join with Democrats and lobbyists for corporations to push for the tax’s renewal.
Seems like dogmatic opposition to taxes is ruining everything.
Anything else would be just selfishness. Forcing others to pick up their tab.
Corporations aren't charities, and that isn't a problem.
This is corporations exploiting a broken political system, where some politician is always willing to sell out future generations to stay in power for another day.
We would be much better off focusing on that problem than trying to hope people and corporations go against human nature and stop being greedy. Hope is never a good strategy. And leopards don't often change their spots...
Part of, sure, but you have to be very careful using this as a foundation of some kind of larger edifice of reasoning, because some behaviors pretty contrary to greed are also human nature.
McCain-Feingold.
The courts striped it of all power.
Someone let me know when the state coffers will help fund my serial rape and murder campaign.
If your strategy to stop corporate greed is to say companies are bad and hope they get better - that's a bad strategy.
You need to do something about it beside complain companies are greedy and hope they stop being greedy. That's never going to happen.
Everyone else complains that the light rail is useless and doesn’t go anywhere so why should we pay to expand it.
This opposition is solely focused on opposing more funding to the light rail system and somehow being reframed about TSMC.
Geologically stable and proximate to rail and truck junctures.
Apparently not if they need to build the rail and highway interchanges.
I think what happened is the politicians promised these things to chip manufacturers because they thought the buildout would be a formality. But political reality is taking those promises off the table.
They should build a fab in Michigan or Ontario. Labour is cheaper up in Canada, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Besse_Nuclear_Po...
A new diversion of that nature wouldn't be allowed.
Also, its in a water district, where we have really done a great job at managing our resources.
Check out some of the well data [1], [2], [3] since it is really eye opening what you can do with proper resource management.
1 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33424411...
2 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33384411...
3 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33375611...
- Phoenix is in located inside a water district, meaning there are many restrictions on water usage and an extremely conservative approach to resource management. Fun fact, many of the wells in our area show increases in water [1] to the aquifer from the lows of the 70's/80's (meaning we are putting more water into the aquifer than we are taking out). Additionally, there is a large artificial lake reservoir and the central arizona project canal runs right by the site. Like others have mentioned, the vast majority of the water gets recycled.
- There is an existing high-tech manufacturing base (lots of aerospace, defense and semiconductor infrastructure).
- There is great transportation. There is a suitable airport (KDVT) ~5 miles from the new TSMC plant, which can accommodate jets capable of international flights (for example to taiwan) if they need to fly wafers to offsite packaging. Additionally, I10, I17 and I40 are all readily accessible.
- There is plenty of space for expansion. The site that TSMC located in has a massive amount of space for expansion, its essentially 5 minutes from town, but has miles of open area that can be utilized for future needs.
[1] - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33384411...
This isn't even a new tax. It's a tax that has been in place for 40 years and has paid for pretty much every freeway mile and light rail track in the area. The tax expires in 2025 and this is a debate over renewing it. If it fails, Phoenix will be Los Angeles with "rush hour" lasting all day in another 10 years.
In general, if you just wait a bit somebody will post an archive link.
Thanks for the assist.
If you think sales tax is too high lower the “slush fund” taxes that get tossed around for political favors and empire building.
>send everything overseas in the 90s due to "cost savings", eliminating tens of thousands of jobs post dotcom
>cry that analog cannot compete with taiwan foundries
>now wants these same citizens to fund their return to the states
If electronics are this important to the country and the military to be subsidized by taxpayers, maybe it should be nationalized with open source and open hardware. No patents, no offshoring, no importing, and no exporting allowed. Let the people become producers and create their own mini-semi conductor products with open standards.