Ask HN: Has anyone switched from a professional job to a more manual one?
I'm considering a big career change. Early 30s, male, Physics degree and I have a good job in sales in finance in the UK. Earn 100k GBP in a good year and I had a startup before were a more a good cash lump sum.
I think like many people I find more work uninspiring, pointless and eroding. However, it's well paid, high status and hard to break into.
I have an interview next week for a coffee engineer role which pays around a third of what I currently earn and would involve being on the road four out of five days.
Has anyone else made a change like this? How did you find it? Did you miss the money and status?
I know that office work is desirable for a reason (people like to sit down!!) but I think there might be something inspiring and rewarding about working with me hands. Am I being naïve because I've never really had to work with my hand?
Thanks for your help and honest feedback.
W
314 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 189 ms ] threadI have massive respect for the trades people, waitstaff etc, they do much if not all of the actual work on this planet if you discount automation and DIY. A lot of my time has been spent on getting proficient at DIY and every time I look at the end result I know for a fact that even a junior schooled in the art would have done a better job than I did. It still gives me satisfaction, but it also shows me that there is no such thing as a job that isn't worth doing and doing well.
I'm not sure what a 'coffee engineer' is though.
I don't really understand your question. In the UK there are professions and none of them (apart from maybe Surgeon) are manual.
You can split hairs about terminology and how it's 'telling' - but it's just words.
Despite being very sporty, I'm now finding in my mid 40s that I'm hitting various physical issues. Nothing serious, but would prevent me from doing hard manual work every day. As it is I haven't lost a days work due to pandemic, or illness for years now as the work I do is so low impact and from home. I imagine this would be much more challenging into 50s and 60s whereas in tech you can work almost indefinitely (I have a friend about 75 who is working).
You also need to consider the training and certification time that might be required. Also being out on the road wouldn't work for me, I'm used to being close to home now.
You work for a roaster to start with and I have some background with repair coffee machines as a hobby. Once you're good at what you do, people tend to become independent but my goal would be to open a shop where we repair and sell machines.
You're right that from any reasonable standpoint I'm absolutely living the dream. I'm debt free, have a good income in a country where incomes are a bit fucker and I do a pretty cushy work from home job. But, I hate it 90% of the time.
There's been a lot of good advice here but the overwhelming thing all day at work is just how excited I am at the idea of not having to do this bs anymore.
I like being on the road - it's a bit like going on an adventure.
But yes, your future job could give you a more happy life balance. Or it could be worse. Or the same.
I love Office Space to death, but that ending paints a very rosy picture. How Peter might feel about his choice two years down the line is a different story.
He was forced to switch to another profession which had to be outdoor based to avoid artificial light and doesn't use any screens.
He decided to train dogs. Initially it was a bit rough (working long hours a day Monday to Saturday) but fast forward 2 years later he is now considered to be one of the best dog trainers in his area. This allowed him to triple his prices and reduce his working hours. He now earns more than he did in his finance job working shorter hours.
If you find your niche and become an expert in that area, I think you can earn a good living no matter what that niche is. But some niches make it easier than others as the base earnings are higher.
I have no personal experience or affiliation with that company, but I read about them the other day and it seems like a cool concept that could help a lot of people that have issues with normal LCD screens.
That sounds scary! What exactly was the issue?
I feel like this must have a huge luck component, he must have just gotten in with one person in this community and then met clients by referral until he took over that area.
I'm skeptical.
Can you expand? Was it finance or "finance"? Was it a low-end finance position? Did he already have prior experience training dogs? Something's fishy here.
Bad permanent salaries push people to contracts/consulting. That just doesn't go many places.
My version of "manual labour" is thinking about going back into the industry with a more output/reward-driven role. IT roles feel kinda dead end.
Worst case, I'll just schlep it as an electrician or some kind of consultant.
$200k jobs seem hopelessly out of reach and I have no real idea how to rectify what is seemingly wrong with my track record.
It's rewarding, been to beautiful places, met whole other (blue collar) subcultures. But it's really hard to know if it's life positive. It's certainly not for life, screw that. Manual work keeps you fit but it breaks the body more. It's also dangerous which is an ok price to pay for experiences but not for living life.
Volunteering in IT in a developing country (1 year turned to 2.5 years) unconditionally positive, travel, different people, different challenges, different parts of the brain used.
> Did you miss the money and status?
Money yes, but if I got my tickets I could be on similar to before. Status, that's a UK thing. I literally lol on the idea people in IT have status.
I don't think status or class has been much of an issue, but I haven't really needed nepotism, I've tried to live off my own skills and achievements and just be nice to people around me.
Medium and long term, you would likely go self employed and then the roasters contract work out to you.
Really - figure out a rough sketch of what your PLAN is for the future.... not 1 year, not 5 but 10 and see how whatever your next step is fits into that to complement it. Ideally, take some trusted mates and run it by them too for a reality check.
How the fuck can you reasonably plan for that. Even my short term plans were obliterated by shit like Covid and it’s aftermath.
Plannning is essential.
* Be careful to not fall into a local maximum. As years progress in a long plan you might find better opportunities by adapting. Think of the opportunity cost of sticking to your plan
* As you execute the plan, you'll gain more knowledge and experience. This very frequently includes information that would have been useful in forming the plan. Try to anticipate what will give you this information and gain it as early in the plan as possible.
* Change happens. You change. The world changes. Reevaluate your plans frequently.
* Be careful of sunk cost fallacies. Even if you worked really hard to progress, sometimes the best corse of action is to walk away.
I was a software engineer for close to 6 years, and now I'm a barista (read more here: https://thoughtfulcoffeenyc.substack.com/p/roast-24-the-bari... ). The change in role isn't permanent, as I intend to go back to tech to save money and then leave it to try and open a cafe in a few years.
But my thoughts on your questions:
> How did you find it (assuming the job)?
At the moment, I enjoy it! I do think... I'd likely get bored after a year or two since there really isn't a lot of variety to the barista job. I'm able to practice and develop my social skills which wasn't something I was able to do as an engineer, and it's kinda exciting waking up knowing you'll get to interact with new people. In tech, it was just the same people over and over again -- which isn't bad, but I remember always wishing that I could interact with more/new people.
> Did you miss the money and status?
Yes. Lol. Also a reason why I intend to return to tech... I can't really live my current lifestyle off a barista salary. I don't care much for the status, but I do miss the freedom that money brings. I also miss the flexibility that tech has.
Anyways, hopefully my answers were helpful to you!
Read: terrible, mostly just labor-intensive real estate plays.
It's human nature. We're not content, which is probably a really great evolutionary driver, but not really a great driver for things like stability. And it's not all material. Even something like e.g. stoicism is largely a dream. It's a never-ending battle which you'll never win, but the point isn't about winning it, but about finding fulfillment in the journey along the way.
While true, I find this ironic since this constant drive for new things is a huge source of dissatisfaction, unhappiness, and general lack of desire to procreate.
You can tell me all day to find fulfillment in the journey, but life isn't setup that way. Most often the highest paying work is devoid of novelty and is mostly an exercise in focus and repetition.
We spend our most healthy and youthful years, sitting a chair staring at a monitor for the majority of our days and the worst part is we're payed so incredibly well that you'd be a fool to do anything else.
"Enjoy the journey" I hear everyone say. What journey?
I agree the economics are important, and I definitely intend to learn them. I just also want to know how to barista and be able to operate the cafe!
I enjoy serving coffee, and I want to be interacting with my customers/staff/etc. :)
I'm friendly with a few local small cafes (one shop only), and the owners all involved with service.
The short of it is that food business is different and extremely difficult in that, aside from the razor-thin margins, culture and relationships are absolutely critical, moreso than in any other industry. In other words, you won't get far treating your employees and vendors (and by extension, your customers) like fungible APIs, because word that you're kind of a jerk will spread quickly, and they'll all end up killing you.
Anyway, all that said, the parent has the right intuition about this. Work on the ground floor, because doing that will give you much better intuitions and insights about the economics and cadence of the business and you'll probably end up interacting with employees, vendors, and customers. Then learn the economics more formally. Ideally find a mentor in the industry, and remember to humanize everyone at every step, no matter who they are.
An affiliated note to junior engineers out there reading this. The more senior your role in software development organizations, the more you rely upon your social skills to demonstrate value. OP's six years would only have exposed them to the very beginnings of that effect that are often subtle at that stage.
Also, if you go into any client-facing software role like sales engineering, your value is tied directly into your social skill development from Day 0.
Dale Carnegie's classic How to Win Friends and Influence People is a decent place to start if you are interested but don't have a network or a mentor to lean upon (classic chicken and egg problem for introverts who want to learn to "pass" as extroverts or even become extroverts).
I go to the gym every day and take it very seriously, but it’s a different thing. Just like doing sudoku can’t take the place of an intellectually stimulating job.
"Buy my eBook"
- Tim Ferris
Status wise, I'm not sure there's much difference, being a software engineer is not something I'm proud of. When you talk to people, they can immediately tell if you're intellectual anyway.
If a highly educated person works with something manual, I think most people will assume that they do that because they like it, and not look down on them. But then I do live in Scandinavia where people are far less obsessed with financial status. I think most people here are more impressed if someone is a struggling actor or professional juggler, than if they're a management consultant making 10 times more.
OP is from the UK where status is...complicated. Having a physics PhD from Harvard is potentially lower status than having gone to the right British high school and then done PPE at Oxford...
As opposed to the US where status is simpler IMO and more strongly correlated with money.
Not sure what coffee engineer is exactly but the same basic idea applies. If you're doing manual labor make sure it's something you can do into your sixties. If not, look for some specialization or related field you can move into--be sure you see older people actually working those jobs to know it's realistic or even apprentice with them.
I picked up a job doing construction, specifically windows and doors. I've always been pretty handy and know my way around the tools, but had never worked this kind of job.
Its satisfying work no doubt. I lost a ton of weight and was in the best shape i had been in years with no effort outside of work. I learned a bunch of new skills and my confidence to complete most home repairs has increased exponentially.
Downsides are the wear and tear it puts on your body. After 12 months i had more small scars than i could count, i broke my foot on my last day there. You come home filthy everyday.
For the first few weeks i was wrecked after everyday, got home and basically passed out on the lounge.
My biggest pet peeve was probably a factor of the specific company i worked at, but i found the lack of basic organization and communication infuriating. Suggestions to implement simple procedures that would reduce the number of misquotes, scheduling and general chaos are ignored because it would require change.
I'd do it again, but for a more organized and professional company.
More seriously, though, I have had similar feelings many times. However, I spent a decade from high school through post-college working manual and food service jobs, so I have no illusions that they provide some kind of fulfillment not found in computer jobs.
My solution was to spend as much non-work time as possible doing outdoors/manual things. And if there’s something related to your job which can be done while riding a bike, or walking, or repairing a motorcycle, or whatever your preferred physical activity, rather than sitting at a desk, then do it that way. Listen to an audio version of a report instead of reading it, do meetings while walking, etc.
Finally I’d also recommend a book related to this topic: Shop Class as Soulcraft, which is about a philosopher that became a motorcycle mechanic, and I believe later became a philosopher again.
And still doing it :-)
The mix of (sometimes hard) physical and brain work is optimal for body & brain.
It's far better to be bored and rich than engaged and poor. Especially in a field which has rapid pay increase potential like finance.
Stay in your job, save a few million pounds, then play barista
Obv doing that would be a mistake for a lot of people for money reasons, but still.
It's possible that the grass just looks greener, or that the OP is just burnt out. But it's also true that it can sometimes be a good move to change what you're doing, even if your current job pays a ton of money. Of course, it'd definitely be beneficial to explore which one is the case before committing to the change.
That being said, I also know people that have had tremendous success by making a business out of their hobby. Whether it be photography, bike repair, mechanic. It's cliche to say but the advice I'd give is stick to what you like, or what you're good at, or ideally both - and then pursue your hobbies part-time. If your full-time workload doesn't allow you to pick something up part-time. Find a slower paced environment that'll let you keep a salary you're used too, and afford you more time to play around with some part-time jobs and see if any of them could become a full-time gig for you.
Don't want to be a selfish bastard but equally don't want to be a sad bastard.
Most jobs (manual or office work) are not rewarding and don't provide meaning.
But I can tell you have never done a manual job because you would understand the sense of satisfaction at the end of the day when you gaze upon the fruits of your labors.
Everyday I drive past houses I built and people now live in. Very rewarding.
I am currently building out my farm.
I am also a general contractor.
And the end of the day you feel a profound sense of accomplishment when you gaze upon your the fruits of your labors. Everyday I drive past houses and businesses that I framed and now people live and work in them.
Pretty soon I will be petting my cows and swimming in my pond. Also there is nothing like a spring morning outside, sun on your face, birds chirping. Good for mental health.
Additionally, you may find the new rules and regs of your position to be grating. Since you’re in sales, you can set your own schedule to some degree. That flips to needing to get permission to leave work for the slightest reason. This extends to relationships between you and your bosses as well. At my software job I tend to collaborate with management, in EMS I take orders.