Show HN: I created a game to memorize the fretboard (fretboardfly.com)
“Uhh…Where’s the C# here?”
“Where’s the flat-3rd of this root on the 4th string?”
“Sure would be nice to know the closest min7 triad shape to play over here..”
I tried memorizing the fretboard the obvious way but it extreeemly boring for me. Being a developer, I decided to turn it into a game. I'd love for you guys to try it out and let me know what you think: It's at [www.fretboardfly.com](https://www.fretboardfly.com)
I've only built the first module right now which is for note memorization but there's been enough interest that I'm planning on building more modules. Please let me know if you like it, what you'd change about it and what other modules you'd like to see in future.
The stack is Vue 3/Nuxt 3/Firebase/Firestore/Tailwind deployed on Vercel. Happy to field questions on the tech side of things as well
142 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 208 ms ] threadI tried setting up the filter, Frets 0-3 and string 1/2/3, but either I am doing something wrong or it doesnt respect the filter, the next note would still go outside the filter range.
Have bookmarked it.
Musically speaking, I never really understood the point of knowing the notes on the fretboard. Scales, intervals and chords are waaaaay more useful to know. But I‘m self taught, so what do I know?
To me, it's easier to learn a song this way than by reading guitar tabs or notes.
I see fretboard orientation as relying on multiple techniques: 1. Notes 2. Intervals 3. Scale patterns
Notes are not the only way to orient but they're a start. I'm planning on adding more modules about intervals pretty soon
I think it is why so often I hear people play and the strings aren't even tuned. "Who cares, it is just numbers on a finger board game." mindset.
No one on any other instrument ever would say musically, who cares what the notes are.
I did something similar to the 'practice mode' some years ago, just for myself, did not publish it. I used the The Synthesis ToolKit (STK) C++ library for the guitar sounds.
In the end, I didn't use it all that much, but I still believe in the idea. Maybe it's just hard to find the best expression/execution.
One idea that comes to mind is to highlight or find the different voicings/aliases and octaves for a given note, since most notes on guitar have at least 3-4 or four equivalents.
Another idea would be to color code the notes on the fretboard. Again, it's been tried before, but maybe there's a reasonably good way to make it stick into visual memory.
I think you should publish it if you still have the code...make it open source on Github and see if other people are interested in taking the idea forward
like that game "Memory" or Simon says.
Also this is training you visually. wouldn't it be better to train you by feel?
The reason why I didnt make it is because I'm an intermediate player myself and I guess right now it resonates with intermediate players who mostly kindof know the notes but have a lot of blind spots. While the feature you requested is more targeted towards newer guitar players
Re: Visual vs feel, if by feel you mean sensory input like touch and how the guitar strings feel? yeah, I totally agree. Except I cant build software to replicate that so this is about as good as it gets . That said, I still find it very valuable for making visual connections for notes and intervals
https://awhitty.me/fretcards/
Thank you for appreciating the app, its sweeter coming from someone who's built something similar. Also, btw, dont forget to sign up for updates to stay up to date on when new modules are released. Cheers
The Tenuto app has some similar exercises (also available here: https://www.musictheory.net/exercises) you might take inspiration from, or others might find useful:
- fretboard interval identification. shows two dots on the fretboard, you are supposed to indicate the interval between them. this is useful for bridging the gap between audio interval recognition and actually playing by ear. since you already have the functionality for selecting notes - which the Tenuto app does not - a useful extension would be to have it where the app presents a note and an interval, and you select the note that is that interval distance from that note on the fretboard.
- fretboard chord indentification. shows multiple dots on the fretboard, you are supposed to indicate what chord it is. the tenuto app doesnt have the functionality for you to indicate what the inversion is. you could also do a similar extension where the fretboard has some notes selected and a chord display, and you select the rest of the notes needed to complete the chord.
Guitar fretboard is more complicated because there's no obvious repeating pattern if you're a beginner, a single note can be found at multiple locations, and a single location can represent multiple notes if you start to bend the string. Because of that, a guitar fretboard is much harder to learn than a keyboard, but it also makes transposition (changing the key of a tune from one note to another) much easier on a guitar than on a keyboard.
I know I'm asking for a lot but I'd really appreciate it Thank you
But I will let you know. Good job btw!
Honestly, on first thought I'll keep this one on the backburner until more people ask for it
I had trouble mapping from your visual to my actual guitar. (I’m an intermediate player as well)
I got that request a few times as well...and I honestly tried but I cannot make it work. I might seek out pro frontend help to help me out here.
If I misunderstood your request, could you explain a bit further? When you say low on top...is this what you mean? https://imgur.com/a/ctgMAuy
I can totally add it if thats what you guys want
(FWIW I had the same reaction with building the left-handed fretboard )
https://imgur.com/a/yIY13pe
Right?
And on the other end, doing it vertical from the ground up would be a ton of work from scratch because of the way it's written
(and before I give my feedback, I should say, I spent a year or two working on a solo indie Zelda/Diablo mishmash focused on teaching guitar fretboards and music theory back in 2006-2009. A video of that incomplete game is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6O32PFGZCE . It relied on players playing intervals and chords to cast spells, for both fighting and puzzle solving, in an ARPG real-time context. I had to pause development due to life, but I'm desperately hoping to find a way to finish and ship it.)
Anyway, I think that your game is... well, really, really hard. More specifically, it feels like it gives a lot of negative feedback right from the get go.
If it were me, I would probably add substantially more scaffolding early on - pull from a smaller section of the fretboard at first for the player to master and get more positive feedback, then expand from there in much more incremental steps. I also feel like the timer feels pretty harsh and negative at the beginning. I've played guitar for many years but have, myself, not really memorized all the higher notes on all the higher strings, so I'm actually receptive for what this tool is doing. But running out of time and then losing a life while I'm trying to count off notes feels frustrating, like it's actively interrupting me doing the learning activity I'm there to do.
Hope that helps! As I say, I like the general idea and would love to see a more fleshed out version.
Regarding your feedback...yeah, I've gotten that feedback a lot. Thats part of the reason why I built the practice mode. Did you get a chance to try it? It doesnt have the timer and you can take your time counting notes to get better. And my favorite part: You can pick and choose what frets and strings you want to focus on.
But your point still stands: There is a need for a gentler introduction and I do have that in mind: A Duolingo style Spaced repetition approach that starts off with 5-7 notes a day and builds up from there. Once you're done with the course, you can play the game to reinforce and test the concepts. What do you think?
I actually had added a comment that I ended up deleting about Duolingo (and Dragonbox, another educational game that I think structures learning pretty nicely). I was going to add the reference specifically because of their spaced repetition and incremental addition of skills, but then I deleted the comment because, well, those games are pretty elaborate, too, and I was mindful of the scope you looked like you were aiming for.
I really wish they would come out with an updated version for the PS5.
But the idea looks great!
But yeah, as I mentioned in a couple other comments here, I plan to build a gradual learning module using spaced repetition that starts with a few notes at a time. Does that sound better?
EDIT: it's only after you choose a level - you can 'start' or 'practice'. gotcha.
EDIT2: alternate tunings seems to be a logical step. is that on your roadmap?
To anyone else reading this, if alternate tunings are your thing, please leave a +1 to the parent comment or write to me on Twitter/reddit/discord, that ways I can gauge interest more accurately
If I might make a suggestion related to the gaps that you mentioned that motivated the tool...
It's hard to communicate the real importance of learning scales and chords at the same time. Specifically, learning all of the important scales and then building chords from those and finding more fingerable/playable voicings for them. Even going as far as removing strings and still trying to complete the scales/chords and then alternate tunings, etc. It's really a slow grind that there's no shortcut for.
Most players skip a lot of this important early practice because it's about the furthest thing from playing songs on the guitar like they want to.
Doing something like classical guitar lessons might be extremely helpful/humbling. Variety also helps -- I got a lot better once I started playing in multiple tunings and different kinds of guitars (#strings, baritone, etc) -- heck I'm learning the Stick right now.
>It's hard to communicate the real importance of learning scales and chords at the same time. Specifically, learning all of the important scales and then building chords from those and finding more fingerable/playable voicings for them. Even going as far as removing strings and still trying to complete the scales/chords and then alternate tunings, etc. It's really a slow grind that there's no shortcut for.
YESSSS! 1000% Thats my precise motivation with this app. What I've released is just the first step. I want to do all the intervals, the triads, the chords, the scales...you get the idea.
That slow grind you're describing is very very true. I couldnt cut it. This app is my attempt to basically get where you're at. Its not a shortcut but lets just say its the fun way to learn where you're less likely to give up.
Not sure if you signed up for the updates but I might hit you up when I build more modules because I'd love to hear from people who're further along in the journey
My one suggestion there, then, is to perhaps make the guitar/bass toggle more prominent to grab the attention of four-string aficionados.
The PS3/X360 instrument training game "Bandfuse" (which had the misfortune of coming out around the same time as RockSmith and went bankrupt within like a year of release) had a really great circle-of-fifths training mode...but only for guitar. :(
An option to disable the display of the name of the key would make it a nice game for ear training.
Having said that, I've spent the last few years reading up on memory retention, SRS and using Anki a lot for languages and what I've found is that Recall is extremely important for increasing the strength of the memory. With stickers and ribbons, the notes are right there for you. Like training wheels. Never challenging you to recall. Keeping you coming back for more of that ribbon help. ..you get the idea.
If you put stickers everywhere I’d agree that’s a crutch. But maybe one instrument is not so bad.
I think what other people are saying about graded difficulty is also true. I have a degree in classical guitar performance. So I did fine. But I've had the fret board memorized for years. Unless there were settings I missed that could restrict the play area, I don't think most would be able to use this very effectively as a learning tool.
There is in fact a restricted play area: Go to "Practice" and click the filter icon on the top right...you can choose frets and strings to focus on
I'd recommend adding a step to the practice mode where whatever highlighted region of the fretboard you're practicing has all of the notes visible, and then over time the notes are taken away as you build up your memorization.
I put together an observablehq notebook with a Stick fretboard (https://observablehq.com/@cscheid/hanon-01-diagrams-for-chap...) for me to work on some fingering patterns, but something like fretboardfly would be so awesome (even if it were just one side at a time). A configuration file like "string tunings + fretboard markers" would totally do it.
After reading your comment I dug around to see how many Chapman Stick players there were (What's the TAM for anything targeted at Stick players..if you pardon my startup-speak). The stick subreddit seems exceptionally small: 596 members. I'm guessing there are non-reddit niche community forums with much bigger numbers to boast of.
P.S. Mr. Hanon gets around (Started Piano lessons a few weeks ago and Hanon #1 was a part of my first lesson)
So, each Stick has a unique serial number. I got mine in 2021 and it's 6596. So that gives you an idea. I totally understand if the market isn't there.
"There's dozens of us!"
One question: Would a dropdown of tuning options(Standard/DADGAD,Drop D) be enough or is there a strong case to be made for user customized tunings per string?
As a practical question for how you learn guitar, it might also be a good idea to show notation instead of the name of the note (or both, or a choice). The number of times you need to find a note by name in guitar playing is... rare.
Audio without permission...yeah I can see that being inconvenient even though its not like autoplaying a youtube video (It's just 1 note)
Notation doesnt seem as popular these days as tabs are, so it was an intentional decision
I personally find notes on the fretboard all the time but I guess there are as many ways of playing the guitar as there are opinions.
If I may gently poke some fun at this comment, this is the most Hacker News comment I've gotten in this thread so far :). I hope you know what I mean
Also, the unnatural trapezoid shape of the board throws me off a bit too.
BTW, I don't believe the reversed vertical orientation makes it any better for me. Looks like I just use my spatial orientation and tactile facilities, not visual.
This fret fly app would be super helpful to a beginning cellist. This goes for those other, lesser stringed instruments as well btw.