Tell HN: Makers beware, Etsy will ruin your small business
A friend of mine asked me to create a rather niche 3D printed part for him. That worked very well for him, so I thought about providing this part to others, too.
As I'm good with technical things, but not so good with marketing, I turned to Etsy to sell these parts. They handle SEO, payments etc. pp. for you, so you can focus on creating.
Now, for everyone who doesn't know it, Etsy is also FULL of people who just print articulated dragons and other "entertainment stuff", where copyright/proper CC-licensing is, I would say, seems to be handled rather lax.
Anyway, I created all my models myself, so I'm safe on that.
I set my store up, put up my parts and waited. Etsys SEO magic (and paid advertisements) did its work and after about two weeks, orders started coming in.
And it was just not a single order, but one every two days or so, with a basket value of about 25 Euro (after Etsy commissions). Of course, that's not "big money", but it's nice money nevertheless for something that runs basically overnight.
I also did everything "very nice" to try to be a good seller. Took care of proper packaging, clean labels, got some white shipment packages from Amazon to leave an overall good and professional impression.
After the first six or seven orders, bank confirmation was still standing out on Etsys side, they just froze my account and all the funds within.
No warning, nothing at all. No reason given, too.
Just an ominous mail that I would have broken the TOS or rules of the house or whatnot. As with any service, these rules are so broad that they cover anything from praising satan to selling body parts.
As I did nothing like that, I filed an appeal to this decision through their Zendesk.
After _exactly_ 10 minutes I received an automated mail that my case was dismissed but I could reply to have it reviewed again.
I obviously did that and I also added that I did the bank authorization, because I thought that would most likely be the reason for the account lock.
Two weeks have passed now, no reply from Etsy at all but the ticket was closed yesterday, probably by another automated process.
My 150 Euro revenue, which has some real value in printed parts and shipping costs etc. against it, has of course not been paid to me.
Etsy has probably also not refunded the buyers, so they have kept the money of both parties, which looks like a good deal to me, at least from their perspective.
Anybody out here with some connections who can help? Anybody out here who has made the same experiences and can advise on what to do next?
Thanks!
edit: What I wanted to say when making that comment about the dragons: I'm baffled that downloading a file from Thingiverse and printing and selling that hundred times is no problem at all, but creative and new designs get the ban hammer. If you want to sell articulated dragons, you're probably fine, but beware of anything else.
edit2: The part in question is a little addition to the normal window locks. You can slide the part over the window lock handle and it will anchor itself between handle and window frame due to its geometry. My friend asked for this, so his children would not be able to open the windows and fall out.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 146 ms ] threadHaving said all that, I notice you don't mention what this part that you're printing is? It would give your story more cred if you mentioned that. Unless, you know, if it's something that would give your story a whole lot less cred.
This is assuming you'd prefer to make them pay as long as it's net-positive for you and not excessively much effort.
I was very careful not to advertise the part as "the one solution" for any security problem.
That was mostly out of fear of liability, but I also wanted to make people think about whether the part would really help them with a specific problem or if it was just a gimmick.
It doesn't matter if it's YouTube, Paypal, Amazon, or esty. Going alone is harder and more expensive.
The other options is to change regulations and that's something can't merely be done by a person.
Board Games has PAX. Anime conventions (ie: Cosplay accessories) have Anime Expo, Otakon, etc. etc. There's more conventions than I can keep up with these days. Almost every single one has an "Artist Ally" or other small shop where you can hawk unique goods to people.
It really depends on your niche. Maybe a state fair (farmers?) is where you set up shop. Etc. etc. I'd honestly try to setup at those places first these days to test out a product idea.
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I don't know anything about vanlife. But I dunno, Burning Man maybe? Where do vanlife people meet up?
Quartzite Arizona, every January
Other than that, I do keep noticing a strong downward spiral of all customer support services. Everything is becoming generic, automated and useless. There are multiple hoops you constantly have to jump through to get in touch with a real person and even then you might still get generic answers.
Well, then they should tell me and we can figure that out. Or come to the conclusion that this part should not be sold on Etsy. That would be fine for me, too.
But this generic "we won't tell you, but we'll keep your money, now fuck off" attitude really sucks.
It's an accessory for the caravaning/vanlife scene. Nothing obscene, nothing legally critical.
Aside from what your parent said (which is 100% accurate), we can't give you any suggestions on what might've flagged the algorithm if we don't know the contents of your listings.
My spouse uses Etsy as the primary way to sell goods. It's a crappy company with crappy policies for sellers, so I'm with you on that, but all you've done here is take much of the initial interest in your story and immediately route it to a dead end.
Whether that's the case here is irrelevant, it's important for people coming on HN with complaints like this to be specific, and it's worth calling it out early when they're not.
Posters do need to be specific but we also don't need to Boogeyman our own community. Nowhere in that post did OP ask for HN to be their personal army. They asked for advice at the end.
Give me back the account, I will come up with something else to design and sell, that's okay.
But nuking the whole account and keeping the money while warning/prohibiting me to create another account is just shitty.
I wasn't trying to turn anyone into a boogeyman, but I have watched more than enough outrage parades on HN that turned out to be in support of a scoundrel. If we can establish the expectation that you're fully upfront about the details, then we as a community can avoid repeats of those events while still helping people like OP who are genuinely confused.
More than enough or "most"?
The latter doesn't seem true from the threads I've followed and would qualify as "boogeymanning" to me. The former seems reasonable and a sensible request for more information. The difference is that the latter automatically lumps OPs request in with "most" supposedly fraudulent requests for help/words of warning.
The thread has evolved since then to seem less sketchy, and I believe that is largely because my parent comment was resurrected and spent a while at the top. It's easy to judge my methods when you're looking at a completely different thread than the one I came to.
could be in the DnD space. could be some kind of hentai thing which kinda runs in that kinda direction but also way more likely to run afoul of the tos.
could be a brigade of bot accounts that reported their account as a competitor. could be all sorts of things... automated scam heuristics. tough to say.
Anyway, that's not the space I want to work/compete in, those people shall print and sell articulated dragons all day if they want.
> The part in question is a little addition to the normal window locks. You can slide the part over the window lock handle and it will anchor itself between handle and window frame due to its geometry. My friend asked for this, so his children would not be able to open the windows and fall out.
The wife of my friend thought Etsy would be a great place, because lots of people put caravaning accesoires up there for sale. There are also various hooks, cup holders and whatnot coming from 3D printers.
> Everything listed as handmade must be made and/or designed by you, the seller. ... Regardless, makers must be creating their items with their own hands (or tools).
My best guess is either their bots suspect that OP is outsourcing the work and didn't properly disclose it OR there's some unwritten policy that a 3D printed part that requires no additional assembly doesn't count as handmade.
I can definitely sympathize with them wanting Etsy to at least spell out what policy they supposedly violated.
https://www.etsy.com/legal/sellers/?ref=list#selling
https://www.etsy.com/legal/handmade
https://www.etsy.com/legal/prohibited
Well, I could send them a photo of the 3D printer right behind me and me waving hands and displaying the OpenSCAD model code in the background... ;-)
> 3. Being Transparent About Your Business
> At Etsy, we value transparency. Transparency means that you honestly and accurately represent yourself, your items, and your business. As a handmade seller, you agree to:
> Disclose in your About section the names and roles of people who help make your items or run your business; > Use your own words and photographs (not stock photos) to describe your items; and > Respond to any inquiries from us in a timely manner. We may ask you how your items are made, what workspace, tools, and equipment you use; and how you communicate and collaborate with the people who help you run your shop.
> Remember: Our marketplace is built on trust. Providing false, inaccurate, or misleading information is prohibited by our Terms of Use. If we find that you’re not being open and honest with us, we may suspend or terminate your account.
> Tell HN: Makers beware
Contents:
> Anybody out here with some connections who can help?
That's an Ask HN
In case I can't get my account activated again, others might save the time with setting up on Etsy and just do something else right from the start.
In this letter, you politely but directly lay out the facts, indicate that you are not in violation of their terms of service or any other legal document, and tell them that you would like the money you are owed, as well as to have your account reinstated. Inform them (again, politely but clearly) that if you they do not at a minimum send you the money you are owed, that you will pursue appropriate legal action. You don't need to specify what legal action - just appropriate legal action.
Since it's 150 Euros, unless you've really done something wrong that would lead them to get in trouble if they pay it out, they'll almost certainly just pay it out.
There have been a few examples of this on HN (none of which I can currently find, unfortunately) - person sends appropriately written letter to legal, legal understands that this is not worth the time and the best resolution for the company is to comply, company complies.
Good luck!
This is a fairly good post on that; the topic is a bit different, but the advice is the same (from "Presenting like a professional" header on): https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
On the flip side, if it wasn't that way we'd be bombarded with knockoff stuff all over Amazon and others.
- Amazon
- Ebay
- Shopify
- Stripe
- PayPal
...
At scale there's a relentless torrent of fraud, scammers, and automated processes trying to steal anything not locked down. Platforms under invest in customer support, rely heavily on heuristics (machine learning and ... AI!) based automation to stop the bleeding, and there's always a story like this since these systems are very imperfect. I don't know what the solution is, but I do remember Etsy being a darling (supports small businesses! Down with Amazon!) only to see it now full of cheap Chinese knockoffs (not at Amazon levels, but getting there) masquerading as bespoke items from small shops in Italy.
The solution is kind of obvious: keep it small scale, know your sellers instead of a free-for-all, stuff like that. But Etsy is a publicly traded company netting $2.6 billion/year (and somehow still making a $659 million/year loss in profit, wut?) so that's obviously not going to happen.
How would you pull that off without keeping out a large number of small, legitimate sellers?
You can surely figure out the business model working here.
You have to pretend it is for pet monkeys only.
You’re assuming malice when almost certainly it’s a mistake + shitty customer service. Have you tried avenues outside of the ticketing system like calling customer service, emails, etc?
Were children mentioned in the product description? Etsy prohibits some large classes of children's items. It doesn't sound like your product falls into any of those classes, but maybe someone there thought it did.
https://ftt.roto-frank.com/int-en/company/press/press-releas...
https://www.en-standard.eu/din-en-13126-5-building-hardware-...
In your edit: "My friend asked for this, so his children would not be able to open the windows and fall out."
I guess it's "not in the slightest" because it restricts the handle and not the window. But the handle restricts the window??? Or can I assume the standard only covers something like what is pictured in the first link?
Edit: plus my raising of this issue is redundant, I read the comment at the top of this thread but not this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36132457
I appealed, and a week later the very same user dismissed the appeal and perma-banned me without recourse, blah, blah. I think I found another complaint email addr, and eventually got re-instated with an apology. But honestly, the experience put me off completely - if I'd been relying on it for my livelihood I'd have been screwed.
I simply replied to the permaban (user 'Naz' banned me, and then rejected the appeal) with 'Seriously, no explanation at all, etc, etc ... Bye and Good Riddance!', and then user 'Marlene' responded a week later and unbanned me with an apology.
So I guess try that.