I am not one for lots of government regulations, but I think that the company in question having some sort of contractual obligation to the person whose job offer they rescinded would be appropriate.
The idea that someone can quit their (probably high paying) job, maybe buy a home in a completely new area of the country for a job and then the company can just say, "Just Kidding" and have no financial responsibility (except bad vibes) seems inappropriate...
I hear what you're saying and don't rally disagree much. At the same time, why are people uprooting their lives before they have a signed employment contract?? That seems a bit crazy.
While I agree you should always have said signed contract there's usually only a technical difference as most job offers mention that you have a probationary period during which either side can get out at any given time without consequences.
What the job offer says doesn't matter. Once you have the offer, the negotiations begin. If you are incurring a large expense or risk to take the job, you should negotiate a clause in your contract that mitigates that risk. It's not a rare or unusual thing to do at all.
A reasonable employer will understand the need for this and accommodate it. If they cannot or will not accommodate it, then it's an offer you should pass on -- the risk is just too great.
At least for me, anyway. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. But if you don't do this, you are willingly accepting a huge level of risk. People willing to gamble like that have to be prepared to take losses.
I am guessing you don’t work in the US. Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US. Best you are going to get is a relocation bonus which won’t need to be paid back in this situation.
Given that such a contract is extremely unusual (except for executives), attempting to negotiate it would usually be a nonstarter. The big corporation will just move on as trying to get their legal and accounting bureaucracy to approve such a contract would be too difficult for the hiring manager/recruiter even if they really want the candidate.
Everyone keeps saying this and it's blowing my mind a little. I've only ever worked in the US -- but the only times I've worked (over a 4 decade career) without an employment contract was when I was working "unskilled" jobs: fast food, janitor, etc.
I don't think your parent was trying to say that contracts existing are unusual. Just that being able to negotiate a contract that has such provisions and contingencies as you said you'd want to negotiate for are extremely unusual outside of executive positions.
The truth probably lies somewhere in between but I do agree that it's not a common thing for your garden variety software developer to be able to negotiate such a thing with a corporation like Oracle. If you're the expert in relational algebra optimization, sure. If you're just another developer. Meh, I don't see it.
I do work in the US. The experience I've had over my entire career is radically different than yours, it seems.
> Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US.
True, if you just sign what you're given. Not true if you actually negotiate. I don't think I've ever signed an employment contract without having some changes made to it first.
I would agree with your assessment and I have passed on opportunities before that were not good enough to take the risk without having the contract changed.
However I have also made the experience that I'm not unique enough and the huge corporation not desperate enough to hire specifically me that they would engage their lawyers to change the contract. I've also had smaller employers absolutely change contract wording without so much as a question and we were all happy.
In this new world of electronic contract signing our hands are also a bit more tied. Instead of being able to just strike through parts of the contract and maybe pencil in something new and they maybe just say "fiiiine" and sign it too, it's now an upfront battle. One that in most garden variety software developer position "negotiations" the corporation has the upper hand in I would say.
What is an employment contract? Is that a British thing? I've never once had a contract for any of the companies I've ever worked for, in any industry, in any state in the USA. Maybe a letter of employment start or something, but contract? No way. They were always free to let me go whenever they wanted to (they never wanted to, thankfully).
Huh. Ok, so... what is it? Like a legally binding agreement your employers would typically give you?
I've never seen (or even heard) of such a thing. What's in it? Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work? If the renege on it, can you sue them...?
And if it's relevant... can I ask what field/vertical you work in?
> Like a legally binding agreement your employers would typically give you?
Yes. It's a contract specifying what both the employer and you are agreeing to.
> Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work?
It can, if that's what you and the employer agree should be in it. It's just a contract like any other. They usually include when your employment will start, what your compensation is, what your duties are, and so forth.
They often also contain noncompete/nondisclosure agreements, agreements on copyright assignments, what happens when your employment ends, and so forth. I'm guessing that most people here have signed them, but perhaps weren't aware that's what they were or that the terms can be negotiated.
Typically, my negotiations involve removing the noncompete. Also, the terms very often include wording to the effect that anything I create during the term of my employment belongs to the company regardless of whether or not company resources/knowledge were used. I always have that removed.
> If the renege on it, can you sue them...?
Sure, just like any other contract. Although most of the ones I've signed have contained arbitration clauses. I've never bothered to try to negotiate those out.
> can I ask what field/vertical you work in?
I'm just a regular software engineer. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies, small companies, startups, and things in between. I'm a generalist currently working on industrial control systems, but prior to that I was in data security. But I've worked in a variety of different sectors over the decades.
This is fascinating. Thanks for explaining! I've never seen one of these, but I believe you.
The contents are largely similar to the "offer of employment" letters I've often received, except as far as I can tell those aren't contracts in the legal sense -- there's no signature involved, it's just kinda a "FYI, here's what we discussed and agreed on". The last letter I got even explicitly says "Please understand this is not intended as a guarantee of employment for any specific period."
Having relocated for jobs, I can see how having it solidified in a contract (at least for a few months) would be beneficial for the employee so they don't change their offer right after I sign a lease. But if it's a contract... doesn't that imply there are also obligations from the employee's side? What if a month in, it turns out to be a horribly toxic workplace and I want to quit? Thankfully that has never actually happened to me, but if it did, would I be on the hook to pay the company back for unworked labor or some such...?
It's also interesting that as another "just software dev", I've never heard of one of these, or known anyone who's even discussed them. I wonder if I've been missing out this whole time -- HR's all like, "Haha, that fool doesn't even know about contracts! Great, don't let him know" -- or maybe the jobs I've held just weren't important enough for companies to have bothered with them? Shrug.
> What is an employment contract? Is that a British thing? I've never once had a contract for any of the companies I've ever worked for, in any industry, in any state in the USA.
You almost certainly have in every employer-employee relationship. It may not have been in a single integrated writing, or even mainly written at all, but when you agree to work for someone in exchange for wages, that's a contract. Often, things like written workplace policies are held to be incorporated as part of the employment contract, depending on form and context, etc.
> They were always free to let me go whenever they wanted to
The fact that an employment contract does not change the default at-will terms does not make it not-a-contract.
22 comments
[ 7.2 ms ] story [ 56.2 ms ] threadThe idea that someone can quit their (probably high paying) job, maybe buy a home in a completely new area of the country for a job and then the company can just say, "Just Kidding" and have no financial responsibility (except bad vibes) seems inappropriate...
A reasonable employer will understand the need for this and accommodate it. If they cannot or will not accommodate it, then it's an offer you should pass on -- the risk is just too great.
At least for me, anyway. Everyone's risk tolerance is different. But if you don't do this, you are willingly accepting a huge level of risk. People willing to gamble like that have to be prepared to take losses.
Everyone keeps saying this and it's blowing my mind a little. I've only ever worked in the US -- but the only times I've worked (over a 4 decade career) without an employment contract was when I was working "unskilled" jobs: fast food, janitor, etc.
The truth probably lies somewhere in between but I do agree that it's not a common thing for your garden variety software developer to be able to negotiate such a thing with a corporation like Oracle. If you're the expert in relational algebra optimization, sure. If you're just another developer. Meh, I don't see it.
> Formal work contracts that provide any real protections to the employee are essentially non-existent in the US.
True, if you just sign what you're given. Not true if you actually negotiate. I don't think I've ever signed an employment contract without having some changes made to it first.
However I have also made the experience that I'm not unique enough and the huge corporation not desperate enough to hire specifically me that they would engage their lawyers to change the contract. I've also had smaller employers absolutely change contract wording without so much as a question and we were all happy.
In this new world of electronic contract signing our hands are also a bit more tied. Instead of being able to just strike through parts of the contract and maybe pencil in something new and they maybe just say "fiiiine" and sign it too, it's now an upfront battle. One that in most garden variety software developer position "negotiations" the corporation has the upper hand in I would say.
I have no idea. I've only ever worked in the US.
I've never seen (or even heard) of such a thing. What's in it? Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work? If the renege on it, can you sue them...?
And if it's relevant... can I ask what field/vertical you work in?
Yes. It's a contract specifying what both the employer and you are agreeing to.
> Like does it guarantee you a job for a certain amount of time, or how does it work?
It can, if that's what you and the employer agree should be in it. It's just a contract like any other. They usually include when your employment will start, what your compensation is, what your duties are, and so forth.
They often also contain noncompete/nondisclosure agreements, agreements on copyright assignments, what happens when your employment ends, and so forth. I'm guessing that most people here have signed them, but perhaps weren't aware that's what they were or that the terms can be negotiated.
Typically, my negotiations involve removing the noncompete. Also, the terms very often include wording to the effect that anything I create during the term of my employment belongs to the company regardless of whether or not company resources/knowledge were used. I always have that removed.
> If the renege on it, can you sue them...?
Sure, just like any other contract. Although most of the ones I've signed have contained arbitration clauses. I've never bothered to try to negotiate those out.
> can I ask what field/vertical you work in?
I'm just a regular software engineer. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies, small companies, startups, and things in between. I'm a generalist currently working on industrial control systems, but prior to that I was in data security. But I've worked in a variety of different sectors over the decades.
The contents are largely similar to the "offer of employment" letters I've often received, except as far as I can tell those aren't contracts in the legal sense -- there's no signature involved, it's just kinda a "FYI, here's what we discussed and agreed on". The last letter I got even explicitly says "Please understand this is not intended as a guarantee of employment for any specific period."
Having relocated for jobs, I can see how having it solidified in a contract (at least for a few months) would be beneficial for the employee so they don't change their offer right after I sign a lease. But if it's a contract... doesn't that imply there are also obligations from the employee's side? What if a month in, it turns out to be a horribly toxic workplace and I want to quit? Thankfully that has never actually happened to me, but if it did, would I be on the hook to pay the company back for unworked labor or some such...?
It's also interesting that as another "just software dev", I've never heard of one of these, or known anyone who's even discussed them. I wonder if I've been missing out this whole time -- HR's all like, "Haha, that fool doesn't even know about contracts! Great, don't let him know" -- or maybe the jobs I've held just weren't important enough for companies to have bothered with them? Shrug.
You almost certainly have in every employer-employee relationship. It may not have been in a single integrated writing, or even mainly written at all, but when you agree to work for someone in exchange for wages, that's a contract. Often, things like written workplace policies are held to be incorporated as part of the employment contract, depending on form and context, etc.
> They were always free to let me go whenever they wanted to
The fact that an employment contract does not change the default at-will terms does not make it not-a-contract.
Scorpion and the frog. Pretty hard to have sympathy