Well, that’s one way for a BDFL to instantly kill a language’s chances of widespread industrial adoption.
FWIW, the reasons for a foundation have absolutely nothing to do with what the main development branch is called… they have everything to do with what happens when your BFDL hits himself with a bus.
I've been really interested in Nim. Not doing anything serious with it yet but I've been following the project and reading about it and looking for a way to somehow use it in my personal or professional work.
This response from Andreas Rumpf, the designer and BDFL, instantly killed my interest. I cannot unsee and ignore what I just read. (https://imgur.com/a/aGLOkfl)
However technically interesting/beautiful this language looks, I do not wish to associate myself with a project who's BDFL's world view contradicts mine so much.
His response instantly set a toxic tone for himself and the work he represents.
It is very unfortunate but ultimately we're all humans and just as it is fine for Andreas to set the tone and govern his project the way he wants, it is fine for me to be picky about my friends and relationships and projects I like to associate myself with.
In this case, it is easy to follow my moral compass.
That does not follow. Languages as large and successful as Python and as small and up-and-coming as Zig have had foundations for years, despite both having a primary lead developer and tastemaker.
This rant really does come off as an embittered “I refuse to leave my project for future generations because I hate them.”
Again you're making this up. That's not what the message reads. It literally says the future of Nim is assured because there is both funding and people working on it. He says he doesn't want to partake in community building because ...stuff happened with the diversity mob. It turns out that they've been preaching acceptance while harassing people with different upbringing online.
I think you're giving him far too much credit. His rant was an irrelevant screed about racism and sexism with alt-right dogwhistles like "clownworld", not anything about foundation mismanagement, which is what is happening to Rust.
That response almost comes off as a non-sequitor, and the only somewhat reasonable interpretation I can parse out of it is that he purposefully has no succession plan as a middle-finger to anybody who might want to use Nim after he's gone, because apparently they're all products of a clownworld he wants no part of.
That's a really bad reading, but it's the only one that makes any sort of sense.
How about this (which is just my guess): he has a great distaste for the politics he perceives and fears would be part and parcel of setting up a foundation at the present time, and perhaps worries the same would be a major distraction from his and other contributors' focus on improving the Nim language and its compiler; therefore he's punting hard on the question.
I agree his answer comes off as a non-sequitor, at least on first read. I also think he expressed himself poorly. Finally, I am not commenting on the substance of what he expressed (that humanity has become a "clownworld", etc.)
I can tolerate different viewpoints on branch names and codes of conduct, but this is just an unhinged way to respond. I feel bad for everyone who has contributed to Nim and now has to live with this stain on their project
As a contributor thanks for your worry but next time keep your virtue to yourself. I read his response multiple times and don't find anything wrong with it. Just an opinion. Worths as much as mine or yours.
Sorry I missed this! Fourth of July weekend. This is the last thing I'll say on this topic, but I don't take direction from others on when to share my views in a public forum. Thank you. My opinion stands.
nim with a bureaucracy would quickly turn into rust, so corporate heads can just adopt rust and let the world of niche opinionated tools be themselves.
and this is a project lead whose company has chosen to trust nim and written an ethereum client in it. Nothing is unopionated in this world, everyone makes their choices. And Status.im choices seem to have worked out.
Big trap of internet posting: your worst day's post can become a defining statement. Clearly on the day Andreas posted this, he wasn't at his kindest. Nim's great and readable, the code will survive many such days I think.
I'm 40, and I think the push for it was pretty silly.
Unlike Andreas, I just don't care about it enough to get upset, though. I'm perfectly happy with something seeming silly to me and just moving on with my life.
I suspect that Andreas has legitimate concerns about a foundation limiting his ability to set the technical and community direction. Unfortunately, he just didn't communicate that very well in this case.
It's not easy to sincerely empathize with the problems of other people, especially when you think these problems are very distant to your day to day life.
In the current world, permeated by negative information, it is often hard to feel emotionally connected to everything that's happening. This situation becomes particularly problematic for highly focused, technically-inclined individuals who are engulfed by their work, mostly devoid (even if it's just their perception) of social component. To them, the amount of general attention paid to some specific societal issues might seem insincere. Unfortunately, they can often also find the supportive evidence for their point of view, as there are enough people whose public persona is obviously crafted with a focus on virtue signaling. Moreover, this often gets exacerbated further if one highly values critical thinking, as maintaining a balance between being critical of the status quo and simply being contrarian or edgy requires a great deal of wisdom.
The internet certainly creates an illusion of a global culture, which is only partially true. There's still a lot of cultural rifts between different people that can only be overcome through tolerance, openness and the willingness to take an extra step in connecting with each other.
Don't rush to label people as toxic unless they are obviously being dicks to others. Some are naturally grumpy or may simply be having a bad day (or a couple of years).
> Don't rush to label people as toxic unless they are obviously being dicks to others.
He used a question about project governance to rant about the "clownworld" we all supposedly inhabit - as well as labeling entire groups of people racist and sexist - apropos of absolutely nothing.
Sorry, but I think people are well within their right to be put off of the project because of that kind of attitude.
What was the group of people he offended? I still don't know, but you seem to have figured it out. Likewise I have every right to be put off by the messages we hear from the US for the past month.
tldr: Nim's creator doesn't want to get involved in building a community. Araq is based af. This is known since a while. Despite the fact, a community has been created with all kinds of people participating. A rule we have is their opinion worths as much as ours. Sometimes we have political debades in #offtopic but generally everyone is civil and channels are moderated by a whole team of eager mods. Toxic commenters here try to frame it as the end of it all. Nim's future is not uncertain. Tomorrow is another day.
I guess the point is that Nim's creator brought up seemingly unrelated, pointless rants on political matters against a genuinely organizational question? This is not exactly a civil discourse in any definitions, especially considering the context that Araq is supposed to be the most representative figure of the community.
Charitably reading his comment, I think he sees questions about a "foundation", "organization", etc as the thin edge of a wedge for people with political agendas.
As a response to "Is there a Nim foundation?" it can be interpreted as "No, and there won't be, and this is why..."
Having said that, I like Nim, but have advised against using it in important projects for exactly this issue: it has bus factor 1 (ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor ).
No it's not a bus factor of 1. Why would you think that? If you don't know why would you talk? There is at least another full time compiler dev. And a stream of contributors.
I believe it, but I'd be happy to be wrong. Here is my reasoning:
My concern is leadership, not technical ability per se. There are a number of people capable of maintaining Nim or advancing it (off the top of my head I can think of 6). The important question is, _will they?_ Has anyone involved made commitments about what they'd do? Has any such commitment been accepted by the rest of the community? Maybe I've missed such statements, but Araq's comment makes me think there just aren't any such plans.
If Araq is hit by a bus, what _will_ happen? I could think of a number of scenarios that seem _possible_ to me, some good, some bad, the problem is that I don't know which if any it would be. For example, maybe diverse contributors organize and take over the project, maybe just contributors from status take over, maybe it's forked repeatedly and the community fragments, maybe it putters along with just bug fixes, maybe it never sees another release, maybe Araq has it in his will that no one can ever use Nim again, etc.
Is there anyone we _know_ would take over for Araq? Do we have a a "Vicearaq"? If not, then I believe a bus factor of 1 is justified.
To be clear, I like Nim a lot and I introduce it to other devs given half a chance, but I don't feel comfortable betting other people's jobs on it at this time. Maybe it's just that Elm has made me wary of BDFLs and I should be less paranoid.
Typing that out is making me re-evaluate my position.
I made my judgement a few years ago, when the technical bus factor might have legitimately been 1, but there are a lot more people involved now, and some of them may have sufficient motivation to maintain Nim themselves rather than just move off of it ASAP. I'm still not sure exactly how it would shake out, but I think Nim would survive the absence of Araq, at least for a time.
Sorry for my earlier comment. I can't edit it anymore, but I will not make it again.
What's wrong with the name nimrod? The name is biblical but not overtly religious in this context, and the bugs bunny association (of a hunter who is a fool) doesn't seem like it should really offend anyone.
Like if he wanted to name the language "fool", how would it be a problem?
I was under the impression that using "nimrod" as an insult was an American thing (reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#Idiom ). The creator of Nim is European.
43 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 101 ms ] threadLots of people are very reluctant to invest time, money and effort in anything with an unplanned, unsettled or uncertain future --- and rightfully so.
Stuff happens --- sometimes quite unexpectedly. One thing is for sure --- if you don't plan for the future you will be caught off guard at some point.
On the other hand, if no one in a position of authority really cares about this sort of thing, that is useful information too.
FWIW, the reasons for a foundation have absolutely nothing to do with what the main development branch is called… they have everything to do with what happens when your BFDL hits himself with a bus.
This response from Andreas Rumpf, the designer and BDFL, instantly killed my interest. I cannot unsee and ignore what I just read. (https://imgur.com/a/aGLOkfl)
However technically interesting/beautiful this language looks, I do not wish to associate myself with a project who's BDFL's world view contradicts mine so much.
His response instantly set a toxic tone for himself and the work he represents.
It is very unfortunate but ultimately we're all humans and just as it is fine for Andreas to set the tone and govern his project the way he wants, it is fine for me to be picky about my friends and relationships and projects I like to associate myself with.
In this case, it is easy to follow my moral compass.
Buh.
It literally makes no sense unless he has mental health issues.
This rant really does come off as an embittered “I refuse to leave my project for future generations because I hate them.”
That's a really bad reading, but it's the only one that makes any sort of sense.
How about this (which is just my guess): he has a great distaste for the politics he perceives and fears would be part and parcel of setting up a foundation at the present time, and perhaps worries the same would be a major distraction from his and other contributors' focus on improving the Nim language and its compiler; therefore he's punting hard on the question.
I agree his answer comes off as a non-sequitor, at least on first read. I also think he expressed himself poorly. Finally, I am not commenting on the substance of what he expressed (that humanity has become a "clownworld", etc.)
and this is a project lead whose company has chosen to trust nim and written an ethereum client in it. Nothing is unopionated in this world, everyone makes their choices. And Status.im choices seem to have worked out.
Unlike Andreas, I just don't care about it enough to get upset, though. I'm perfectly happy with something seeming silly to me and just moving on with my life.
I suspect that Andreas has legitimate concerns about a foundation limiting his ability to set the technical and community direction. Unfortunately, he just didn't communicate that very well in this case.
https://forum.dlang.org/post/wzoecavcswedkiebcjft@forum.dlan...
https://forum.dlang.org/post/lhhxvlxfddxnreyfhbct@forum.dlan...
In the current world, permeated by negative information, it is often hard to feel emotionally connected to everything that's happening. This situation becomes particularly problematic for highly focused, technically-inclined individuals who are engulfed by their work, mostly devoid (even if it's just their perception) of social component. To them, the amount of general attention paid to some specific societal issues might seem insincere. Unfortunately, they can often also find the supportive evidence for their point of view, as there are enough people whose public persona is obviously crafted with a focus on virtue signaling. Moreover, this often gets exacerbated further if one highly values critical thinking, as maintaining a balance between being critical of the status quo and simply being contrarian or edgy requires a great deal of wisdom.
The internet certainly creates an illusion of a global culture, which is only partially true. There's still a lot of cultural rifts between different people that can only be overcome through tolerance, openness and the willingness to take an extra step in connecting with each other.
Don't rush to label people as toxic unless they are obviously being dicks to others. Some are naturally grumpy or may simply be having a bad day (or a couple of years).
He used a question about project governance to rant about the "clownworld" we all supposedly inhabit - as well as labeling entire groups of people racist and sexist - apropos of absolutely nothing.
Sorry, but I think people are well within their right to be put off of the project because of that kind of attitude.
As a response to "Is there a Nim foundation?" it can be interpreted as "No, and there won't be, and this is why..."
Having said that, I like Nim, but have advised against using it in important projects for exactly this issue: it has bus factor 1 (ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor ).
My concern is leadership, not technical ability per se. There are a number of people capable of maintaining Nim or advancing it (off the top of my head I can think of 6). The important question is, _will they?_ Has anyone involved made commitments about what they'd do? Has any such commitment been accepted by the rest of the community? Maybe I've missed such statements, but Araq's comment makes me think there just aren't any such plans.
If Araq is hit by a bus, what _will_ happen? I could think of a number of scenarios that seem _possible_ to me, some good, some bad, the problem is that I don't know which if any it would be. For example, maybe diverse contributors organize and take over the project, maybe just contributors from status take over, maybe it's forked repeatedly and the community fragments, maybe it putters along with just bug fixes, maybe it never sees another release, maybe Araq has it in his will that no one can ever use Nim again, etc.
Is there anyone we _know_ would take over for Araq? Do we have a a "Vicearaq"? If not, then I believe a bus factor of 1 is justified.
To be clear, I like Nim a lot and I introduce it to other devs given half a chance, but I don't feel comfortable betting other people's jobs on it at this time. Maybe it's just that Elm has made me wary of BDFLs and I should be less paranoid.
I made my judgement a few years ago, when the technical bus factor might have legitimately been 1, but there are a lot more people involved now, and some of them may have sufficient motivation to maintain Nim themselves rather than just move off of it ASAP. I'm still not sure exactly how it would shake out, but I think Nim would survive the absence of Araq, at least for a time.
Sorry for my earlier comment. I can't edit it anymore, but I will not make it again.
Like if he wanted to name the language "fool", how would it be a problem?