People don't get murdered for getting hair transplants & people getting hair transplants aren't being targeted politically, so considering the scale of stigmas associated with gender affirming care, no, I don't think it does.
I think you've added context that I didn't write. I'm not saying it's as "unaccepted" in society as, say, HRT for transitioning. Just that it's not accepted and is still a point of derision.
I'd be willing to bet a substantial number of these men wouldn't take steroids if society/women didn't reward them for having a chiseled (and often times unnatural) aesthetic, so considering it gender affirming care is a stretch in the general sense.
Gender affirming care actually can include gender-affirming procedures for cisgender people such as reconstructive or cosmetic surgeries. Under that frame I don't see how "I need higher T to feel like a real man" is much different.
Only if you think that comparing a trans man who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man to a biological male who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man is silly or deceptive.
If a woman wants to take testosterone to deepen her voice and change her hair pattern, that's up to her, but she'll never be a man. Let's be realistic here.
They're really not different issues, though. Most men using TRT would cite, in some fashion, wanting to feel more manly. That is gender affirmation.
Testosterone is beneficial for everyone. If a man or woman wants to do TRT, it is not illegal to do so. But if they cite some kind of gender dysphoria, it is suddenly extremely taboo.
It's a bit humorous living in a society where roided out podcasters complain about people not accepting their natural identities or hormones
Isn't that the case with all gender-associated traits though? Women wouldn't dress the way they do if society in general didn't reward them for doing so.
Only tangential to the theme, but continuing your thought, in my experience the rewards for having a chiselled aesthetic comes more from men than women. It's a status marker amongst (some groups of) men. The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.
What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same.
A chiseled look not enough to land someone on its own, but it absolutely will get you a conversation from women who otherwise would not have even talked to you.
And it would get you not even passing glances from other women because they don't like that look.
> What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same.
There are different women with different preferences. This comment, on its face, doesn't sound like you're talking about a singular woman, but lamenting the fact that one woman is not upfront about the preferences of...another woman she's never met.
In my adult life, I've been both a beanpole and a fairly muscled dude(495 lbs squat, 275 bench, 600 DL)
I had women attracted to me both times, but the type of woman was very different. I also got groped and felt up far more and other far more overt displays of interest by women when muscled.
I agree that there are feedback loops. There are also things that women do which some speculate are motivated more by the feedback of other women than of men.
> The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.
Visit your local bookstore (if there still is one!) and tell me what the men on the covers of those romance novels look like.
Depends on the romance novels. Some women want Fabio, others want a sexy doctor or a vampire. Certainly lots of women do want hunky guys, but the gay community has had a whole taxonomy of sexy body types for decades through physique magazines and the like.
I'm not sure you can put this on women - since not only can men can be into men, but women can take steroids (and of course be into both men and women). Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner - while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else.
I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
Human behavior lies on a normal distribution, so the fact that some women take steroids doesn't detract from the motivations of the substantially larger portion of men who use them.
> Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner
The word "necessary" is one you uttered.
> while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else.
What relevance does that have? Roids are a different set of tradeoffs from that of working out and playing sports.
> I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
The backlash is not founded on the novelty of gender affirming care; it usually hinges on whether the form of gender affirming care that most people think of when they hear that term is medically sound in many cases and the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder. Some people are pushing back against the very concept of gender affirming care, yes, but the debate is way more complex than that.
> and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
Not everyone agrees that every form of "gender affirming care" is equivalent, or whether it needs to be overly intellectualized in such a manner. A modern westerner might be convinced that use of Rogaine should be classified as "gender affirming care" when, in reality, the proximal motivation for the vast majority of men using Rogaine is because they want to keep their hair.
I'll state it more clearly here because you seem resistant to really think about what I have said - there are men and women of all sexual orientations using steroids. Are you certain that a disproportionate number of straight men, out of the group of those who lift, are users of steroids? Or are you really just projecting your own feelings and insecurities onto a group of people you don't know, and asserting it as fact? Because it sounds like there's a touch of resentment towards women (implying they're really to blame for this) in your comment, and that's what I was primarily taking issue with.
> the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder
This is the kind of thing people said about being gay, bi or lesbian back in the day, and only the most hateful and bigoted say that now. In ten years time you'll either look back at comments like this and cringe with embarrassment, or you'll be one of those miserable, hate-filled bigots. I hope for your sake it's the former.
Taking exogenous steroids is usually contraindicated. Some people will take steroids for other reasons, but a key reason many people work out the gym is for the physique. Speaking as if nobody is going to the gym to look good to other people is a form of denial.
Gay/bi youth are estimated to abuse steroids about 5-6 times as much as exclusively heterosexual boys. I don't know what % of the fitness community are gay, but it's A Lot, more so in the bodybuilding/powerlifting demographic vs general athletics. Hypermasculinity and homo/bisexuality have been culturally intertwined for millennia, the Iliad is centered on just such a relationship.
This is an interesting find and explains why “ravenstine” has sort of disappeared from this thread, having asserted that this use of steroids is simply down to men wanting to impress women (then doubling down in it, and sprinkling in some anti-trans stuff in to boot)
Seems to be nothing to do with Tavistock, and transmasc people are (perhaps surprisingly) never mentioned in the article. The OP was making the point that "making your body conform to your gender" is also something that cis people can and do do.
(By the time it was closed down the queues at the Tavistock were on the order of years, so lots of UK trans people have had to go private at some point)
Edit: we already asked you once to stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait, and your account has unfortunately continued to do this. We end up having to ban such accounts because this is not what this site is for and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them, we'd appreciate it.
It's not flamebait. This perspective is widespread and discussed with nuance in the fitness community, and also in the medical community, eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37285414/
It's in no way a controversial or baity observation.
Have you considered the possibility that many people posting in this thread are sufficiently interested in physical culture to already know about this point of view? Anyone who reads weightlifting forums where steroids are likely to be discussed already encounters this idea on a daily basis.
I get that it's a new concept for you, but your assumption was misplaced.
I didn't intend the comment to be taken that way. Also not sure what other comment I made that was considered flamebait. Maybe I missed that being called out or just forgot. Anyway, steroid use is gender affirming care. They're taken by men who perceive themselves as what society has generally considered a man and they want to emphasize those characteristics. I think it's interesting all the discussion lately of gender affirming care but barely see any discussion on cis/heterosexual people taking hormones and undergoing cosmetic procedures to emphasize those gendered physical characteristics.
I think there are 4 groups of people who take hormones.
1. Those who take them for competitive advantage in sports
2. Those who take them because a doctor has told them that their body is producing less than it should be
3. Those who take them because they want the physical attributes that goes along with it because of how they identify
If you had posted this above, it would of course have been fine. The trouble is that a one-line comment that simply names a divisive theme and contains no further information is liable to be misinterpreted.
Oh. Yeah. I'm on my phone and really dislike typing on touchscreens. I should say things of more substance or nothing at all. I have periodically taken ivermectin. My friend had bedbugs and I was worried that he brought them over to my place. I had read about how ivermectin will kill bedbugs. Also when my roommates dog had worms I took some just in case I got them somehow. It's a safe and useful drug, just not for covid.
TRT is now a fully embedded thing in the United States so this isn't totally surprising.
I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc in the box who manages to find "low T"
It's just so easy now. And if you need it, great. But for a lot of people it's just a way to boost T for athletic/aesthetic reasons without a ton of attention to the health side of it.
The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.
hah i was thinking about trt too when i saw this title. I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies.
> I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies.
From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude.
In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
> This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more
No one in a gym is made insecure by someone who is clinically obese, irrespective of how much they can lift. It's even more ridiculous when you realize how many of these people are obese, and on steroids.
Not all power lifters are clinically obese. You will quite often see a smaller scrawny powerlifter out lift a bodybuilder, purely because they’ve been following strength specific programs rather than focussing on hypertrophy.
In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part.
My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless.
I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male.
This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.
It would be interesting to understand why the body is lowering it, might also be the body adopting to certain conditions. Could be that artificially boosting it, goes against something the body is trying to regulate. Or it could just be a side-effect of body in decline.
When people's body stop producing testosterone on their own and they are forced to spend money on weekly injections for the rest of their life people will learn :) When you can't go anywhere or travel without your testosterone injections people will see how overkill it was to get on HRT. Hope these people are comfortable freezing their sperm. Now if you are over the age of 60-65 blast away
Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep.
I think you are the one confused. "HRT is for people with gender dysphoria". Nope. Its for all different types of people with all different types of conditions. Lacking testosterone being one of them. TRT is a form of HRT treatment. Im not sure why you stood to correct me and bring up gender dysphoria when it is not even the most common form of HRT.
"whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels". Not sure why you are so persistent on alluding to gender. These discussions have nothing to do with gender dsyphoria.
>The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors.
- the reference range has been adapted times and times again
- testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times
- for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy"
Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.
You are displaying exactly the problematic cherry picking that you are railing against, but from the other side.
Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations.
Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
>Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations.
in this case, reference ranges are adapted so people don't qualify for therapy. The side effects of the low levels don't change just because you change the reference range
>Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
My exhaustive reasearch has shown the opposite.
Interestinglingly, even older guys now have higher testosterone levels than younger guys. So you can even see it in the living specimen.
>Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
1. doctors say that, en masse.
2. There is some evidence that the lower testosterone levels are caused by injuries and dysfunctions. At least some studies point to that.
An analogy: Age doesn't cause bad teeth. Caries and injuries cause bad teeth. If these don't happen, teeth stay healthy. Saying it's normal that your teeth fall out is lazy.
>The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
You are partially right. Testosterone is regulated through estrogene. Having high estrogene limits your testosterone production. Obesity and less sport is sufficient.
But a lot of non-obese and healthy people who work out also have low testosterone levels
This is of interest to me as I saw an Endocrinologist last Monday as I had a blood test a few weeks ago and my testosterone level was "quite low" at 257 (bottom of the range being 249).
Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go.
I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test.
At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route.
For what it's worth I am in France not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.
Do your own research on that. Even endocrinologists oversee obvious reasons for low testosterone.
Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor).
Yes the recent blood work has all the diabetes, cortisol, thyroid and some other stuff being tested. Plus a brain/pituitary gland MRI in a few days.
Thankfully here I get all my results directly in accessible formats (so like a normal video for my MRI results) so I can easily research myself or go for a second opinion without the hassle of having to get my results like back in the UK.
Having said that the Endocrinologist I saw was highly recommended by a close Doctor friend so I have confidence in them.
I am in nearly the same boat as you. I'm 38, and 1 year ago, I had my testosterone levels checked. The results came back at 273ng/dL, which is considered deficient. When I asked about TRT, My doctor refused to prescribe it, but, couldn't provide any valid reasons or research to backup his one justification that "it makes your blood thicker, and increases the risk of heart attack" (see below).
After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>').
Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0]
The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that.
I started TRT back in July of 2022.
After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect).
Thanks for sharing your experience. I have heard very similar stories from many people and it is certainly a pretty good sell for trying TRT.
Your initial experience is weirdly similar to mine. My doctor has given me a few different antidepressants over the past 2 and a bit years (Escitalopram, Amitriptyline, Sertraline to name three) but they just made me worse in that I put on weight (which now will not fucking leave!), awful sleep, my penis became useless, and I was just angry 95% of the time. I was a truly awful person to be around and I felt so sorry for my wife and son having to put up with me. So I told him they're not working and we need to look at other ways of treating this depression and anxiety.
He sent me for a testosterone check I think as a bit of a way to just shut me up as I kept asking him what else can we do. He was surprised when it came back at 257ng/dL but as it was above the 249 bottom end he was like "it's a bit low but in the normal range". Thankfully I have a friend that is a doctor and they put me in touch with an Endocrinologist who agreed under 300 at least deserves some further blood work and check I don't have a pituitary gland issue which can cause a lot of my symptoms.
My symptoms are:
* extreme fatigue (to the point of falling asleep in my office chair)
* easily exhausted when exercising
* much longer recovery times from exercising, when I used to have maybe a day or two of muscle aches from pushing myself a bit more to build muscle it would now take me 3 to 4 weeks to recover.
* My concentration is garbage
* Cannot lose the weight around my abdomen. I managed to lose around 13KG back in 2020 yet put it back on thanks to the SSRIs mentioned above and doing the same things I did the first time just does not shift the weight
* Depression but it feels different to my previous experiences with depression not to mention it seems treatment resistant this time whereas before I found Sertraline was at least somewhat effective.
* Heart palpitations that are extremely uncomfortable
* Terrible sleep. It often takes me 2 hours to finally get to sleep and my sleep quality as measured by my FitBit is awful compared to a few years ago (first time the sleep tracking came in helpful)
* Very irritable and easily frustrated
I don't know how that compares to your list of symptoms but they have absolutely wrecked me the past few years. I am just hoping to god there is something of value found in my blood results so I can start working on improving things.
As I said I don't know if I will jump on TRT as it does worry me a little bit. There is no such thing as side effect free HRT after all but my wife has said I should keep an open mind and listen to my Endocrinologist who has said she would recommend it if my blood work comes back with levels in line with ~250ng/dL. I will see what the results are though, if I'm under 250 I think I will have to seriously considering just trying it for a few months. If I am around 300 I think I would rather try some natural ways and retest in 2-3 months and see if it has helped at all. If not then I will give TRT a try.
> I don't know if I will jump on TRT as it does worry me a little bit. There is no such thing as side effect free HRT after all...
Brother, it sounds like your life is made of horrendous side effects. I am just a random internet commenter, not a doctor, but I am a fellow man. And if there were ever a time to ignore your fear and roll the dice, it's now.
You're not wrong and my wife certainly shares your opinion too!
I am naturally a bit of a worrier about "big" medication regimes like TRT and I over research and over think everything which is obviously not a great thing when it comes to medicine as everything has side effects.
I am slowly starting to adjust my mindset with regards to trying TRT but I need to see what my results are to help me make a decision.
It is a decision, but, I wouldn't say it's a "big" one. It is possible to come off TRT, though it's a long ramp-down period. The TRT itself isn't really a hassle, I just poke myself in the butt twice a week. I've worked it into my morning routine: shave, shower, teeth, poke.
I was like you before I started TRT, super hesitant, and worried I would just be poisoning myself. A good friend of mine kept pushing me to try, and I can't say I have any regrets.
For me personally, I wouldn't want to come off TRT, I feel so much better consistently. IMHO, there are no downsides, at least none yet that I've experienced.
That's still quite low. As I mentioned in a previous comment, my family doctor wouldn't persribe TRT even though I was outside of the "normal" range. I ended up having to go to a "mens health clinic", who are much more liberal with handing out prescriptions.
Not sure if you will see this but on the chance you do I was hoping you could get in touch with me directly as I would really like to talk to someone on TRT to ask some questions. If possible could you drop me an email? You can email my username satysin at gmail. Many thanks!
I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep.
Not trying to second guess your health situation, but I don't see anything about exercise on here. You don't have to go crazy with it (unless you want to), but istm everyone should do some exercise. Walking at leisurely pace helps but I don't really count that as exercise - by that I mean something that gets your heart pumping or significantly tires you out, eg a long walk at a really fast pace or with a loaded rucksack. Obviously this will be different for people who struggle with obesity or have joint issues, but you don't mention any physical handicaps so I'm assuming you have full mobility.
Prostatitis and amplification of undetected existing prostate cancer, and blood clots, are the big two I think? There are minor ones, like decreased sperm count and acne, but people going on TRT probably don't much care about them.
I was told your own body stops producing testosterone and this is permanent. So you are signing up to get injections in your ass once a week for the rest of your life. No idea if this is actually true though, I find it hard to believe personally as many bodybuilders will cycle on and off steroids constantly.
I recall at some point a huge flood of ads for TRT and Testosterone boosters, seemingly out of nowhere. A bit separate from the whole line of more typical products from companies like Hims (for hair loss, ED, etc). For that reason, I don't trust it. It's some land rush and money grab and I don't think proper due diligence is being done.
Yeah usage from early 20s group at my gym significantly higher than 10 years ago. But also lots of unimpressive results due to poor training or weak T responders.
I’m all for keeping politics out of non political discussions for sure but I don’t see any political connection in using a public figure for an example.
That was so weird. Not one good pushup (more bouncing up and down in the middle of the action without ever reaching the top or bottom of the movement) and he struggled to get to 9. He looks fit, but he's not.
Living in FL (the home of TRT therapy) I’m blown away with what I see regularly at the gym.
Like RFK you will regularly (every day) see men in their 60s that have the muscle mass and definition of someone in their 20s. It’s still a lot of hard work, and I’m not calling it cheating, but it’s extremely obvious.
There’s a lot of talk of female beauty standards but looking at The Rock, Hugh Jackman, and countless others all the diet and training in the world cannot maintain that physique into their fifties. It’s ridiculous they do interviews and give the classic “broccoli and chicken” line. Personally I’m also skeptical younger actors are able to achieve physiques that are top tier for professional athletes naturally - and often do it in months between roles.
Even when they give details of their training (two a days for hours) that’s just not possible at that age without the tremendous improvements in recovery that performance enhancing drugs provide.
Muscular actors are almost without exceptions on it. Take Chris Hemsworth, he went from skinny to bodybuilder level of muscle. It would be fine if doesn't use it to sell workout programs.
Exactly - I don't have a problem with it. It's just very, very dangerous (and sleazy) to give the public and society the impression these results are obtainable with some random diet, over the counter supplement, etc.
Doubly sleazy for those that are selling something claiming it's how they achieved their results. Not unlike the Kardashians selling some juice, make up, or whatever and attributing their appearance to it. The real answer is lighting, all kinds of editing/tuning apps, surgery, extreme and regular dermatological procedures, veneers, etc. It's their job and they employ every single trick in the book possible and then some to achieve these results.
It's incredible how far the standards have moved. I was re-watching Terminator 2 the other day. Looking at Arnold Schwarzenegger in that role his physique is more-or-less the standard for "action heroes" today and needless to say he's essentially a freak of nature (and has openly discussed his steroid use). There have been advancements in sport and exercise training but not nearly enough to make up that difference.
Christian Bale went from a "should be hospitalized" gaunt physique in The Machinist to Batman in a year - that's just not possible without chemical intervention.
> It's just very, very dangerous (and sleazy) to give the public and society the impression these results are obtainable with some random diet, over the counter supplement, etc.
Unfortunately it's also risky for them to tell the truth ("I achieved this with some sketchy prescriptions of otherwise-illegal drugs")
As I noted in my top comment TRT therapy for older men is far from sketchy/illegal at this point - to the point of hardly being controversial. Joe Rogan (as one example) has no problem saying "I'm on TRT/HRT and it's great"[0] - and he's tiny compared to these guys. Joey Diaz actually says in that clip "let's be fair to everyone out there - you're on some stuff" and to his credit Joe says "absolutely".
Rogan is only tiny in the sense that he's short. He's very beefy for his height, and you can see changes around his face etc vs photographs from a decade ago.
Tiny is relative. Here's Joe[0] - he looks more-or-less like a diet/exercise fitness enthusiast in their 20s, which seems in line for his message/goal of "hey I'm just trying to hold on to that for as long as possible".
Here's The Rock[1] at 48 years old. You can search for in-role Ryan Reynolds, Chris Hemsworth, Henry Cavill, etc, etc - Joe is tiny by comparison and all of these actors seem to get bigger and bigger as they age (look at any of them from roles 10 years ago) - which is the exact opposite of what happens to men as they age.
Here's an example[2] of what they look like (in "Hollywood" shape, but normal for age) when not tuned-up to the max on whatever they do/take for these roles.
You're right, Rogan is smaller than I remembered him being. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure why he's taking any gear, doesn't seem necessary to maintain that sort of body.
On the getting bigger thing, muscle is cumulative as long as you keep exercising it. I have always assumed The Rock was on gear while wrestling (although he had a great frame to begin with) but I don't find it odd that he can maintain that at 48.
Rogan has a different audience. More mature, and TRT is dosed properly and often through a doctor. Young kids just shoot up as much as possible. I still think we need more research to know it's long term impact and side effects.
I do think it's fair to assume that if Hemsworth openly its likely to be possible more young kids will take it. But it also depends on how he talks about it.
It's really weird how he used to lie about his PED use for decades, and now he's lying about the dosage as quoted in this article, 100mg Test/week with a standard dbol dose? There's no way you can get up to 117kg/260lbs stage-ready (so decently shredded) on a lower-than-TRT dose.
I don't know about estrogen but I am really surprised that 98% usage are from males. Anecdotally I see an increase usage of steroids in women. The fat burning is incredible.
A PDF that I found earlier and then bloomin' lost because I was accidentally in a private browsing window while testing an app logged out... This one I think.
Because Testosterone is a bad choice for women if they want to use PEDs, Anavar is a much better option, and Clen is often used for fat burning (although Anavar on its own is really decent for that as well).
Point of information: there exist both "combined" and progesterone-only contraceptives, which may be chosen depending on how the user experiences side effects.
Yes, glucocorticoids are extremely effective in the treatment of respiratory inflammation diseases such as asthma and copd. I'm genuinely surprized this number isn't higher.
Update: Whoops. Apparently, the submitter neglected to mention "anabolic" in the title. That's a pretty glaring omission.
This was one of the first things addressed in the linked article?
> The report refers specifically to the use of anabolic steroids, which can be used to increase muscle mass, and not the use of corticosteroids, which are used to treat a wide range of medical conditions.
Let's just say that it isn't corticosteroids that 99 % of US cops are on. It wouldn't be the worst idea to have a drug testing regime like truck drivers do. If you can keep truckers off marihuana you can keep cops off anabolic steroids. It would improve the applicant pool, besides anabolic steroids cause bad temper.
> But more surprising was the amount of hordenine and ostarine – described by the programme-makers as often being found in gym supplements, which made up more than half of the pharmaceuticals found.
Ostarine is a SARM, and supposedly there was more of that than cocaine or MDMA residue in a London sewer "fatberg."
Well, that's the thing, SARMs aren't "steroids" in a technical sense, but are in a colloquial sense. Maybe there's a seemingly low number of people are taking literal anabolic steroids, but are taking other PEDs recreationally instead.
It's less than 2% of all adult males. I would guess that the peak age group for anabolic steroid use is ages 30-40 (that is, end-of-youth crisis not the youngest) but I'd be interested to know for sure.
Edit: government data says I am wrong. 25-29, apparently. But that's based on self-reporting so I do wonder.
After skipping gym for one month I'm losing all muscles and turning into the weakling I am. I'm wondering on every visit "how these guys maintain their muscles?! they must be injecting, inserting, and swallowing some substances... right?"
To keep muscle all you need to do is counteract the catabolic pressure on lean muscle mass, you can workout your muscle groups at very low intensity 1-2 times a week and eat more in a caloric surplus/maintenance to achieve this.
Can't you just exercise at home? I am naturally skinny but put on muscle by working out diligently at home. I have not been in a gym since high school and I don't own any fancy equipment, just a few bits and pieces that I bought used (bench, pull-up bar) or found on the street (dumbbells). For most calisthenic exercises you don't need any equipment at all.
There's absolutely no way a natural will lose all of their gains if they skip the gym for a month, unless you're doing short periods of going to the gym, then not going to the gym (say month on, month off), then at that point you're not really losing muscle, there was not much muscle to begin with, your muscle just became depleted instead, two other explanations could be either being seriously ill, or simply severely undereating for the period of that month to the point that your body cannibalizes itself.
For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
I'm sure some percentage are augmenting, but it is surprising how common it to see people on social media declaring that people with the slightest bit of definition or muscles as steroid users.
[1] Should we call it the "second place" in the era of WFH?
>For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
Not at all in my case. In my youth gyms were places for hooligans, _heavy_ steroids abusers, low end criminals, and thus places to avoid. Then spent some years in Germany where gym contracts are famously predatory and abusive, again a place to avoid. Only around 2 years ago had found a civilized place finally. Starting to visit regularly meant to actually overcome some traumas.
I don’t know if you’re serious or not, but one month is not enough time for you to lose significant gains. Even if you do lose strength or mass it’s much easier to get it back than it is to initially build. I took a year off during the pandemic and was able to get back to my previous lift numbers in about 2-3 months.
I don't know anyone who works out regularly who would take a month break. Maybe if they are injured they'd take a month (or more) off of that specific muscle group.
That's like not brushing your teeth for a month, it's not the done thing. The Americans I know don't even take a month off work, lol.
Genetics is a sonofabitch. I haven’t been a to a gym in 20 years, and yet people ask me what my routine is.
Sit on the couch, smoke, eat chocolate. Your mileage may vary.
I did do an unholy amount of exercise from 12-20 (rowing), which may have put a few epigenetic switches in useful locations, as before that I was a spherical child, but honestly, I have no idea how I maintain cardio and strength with frankly small bursts of infrequent activity.
This is about 1.8% of adult males, if one starts with a (pretty good) first approximation that essentially all anabolic steroid users are adult males over 18.
(I would be really surprised if this figure is higher than the USA, considering the differences in regulation)
Please avoid SARMs only cycles if you can, SARMs will suppress your natural Testosterone production either way, so running a Testosterone base is always recommended, at which point, why even bother with experimental chemicals instead of just running a reasonable T cycle?
Because testosterone affects everything, including the heart and other organs, potentially causing serious problems down the line. SARMs only effect skeletal muscle tissue, and so it is likely safer in the long run. Obviously more research is needed on long term effect, but this is primarily why people are using them.
That's not necessarily true, certain SARMs have high liver toxicity, and as I mentioned, /all/ SARMs suppress your natural Testosterone production, meaning you may need other drugs afterwards to be able to bounce back, and you will feel like shit during your SARMs-only cycle when your T levels are very low, I'd say liver toxicity and destroying your natural hormone production are serious problems as well, I feel like the main reason people use SARMs is because they may be scared of injections, and that (since they're mostly popular with younger population), it may be easier for them to explain to their parents if they find random pills/liquids than if they find syringes and needles. I do agree though that more research is needed as they're relatively new chemicals on the market whose long-term side effects are simply not known yet.
Injecting testosterone suppresses your natural testosterone levels just as much if not more than SARMs. If you inject anything into your body that your body naturally produces it will stop producing it as a result. That’s why melatonin is not recommended for insomniacs because your body will become incapable of producing it yourself and it’s why SSRIs are used for depression because it encourages the body to produce more serotonin itself. Both SARMs and testosterone are capable of causing liver injury, but only the latter is also running the risk of fucking up your heart and prostate as far as we know. And the whole matter is complicated by the fact that fuck knows if what they’re actually getting is SARMs/testosterone or something else entirely.
Health impacts on the individual users of trt are just one aspect, it impacts other people. I live in an area where use is common and I'm tired of running into obviously roiding men who act much more aggressive than normal people in public. My experiences are retail and and driving. I've assumed that the tacit approval for steroid usage among law enforcement in the US has at least partially responsible police brutality incidents.
Are you even confident in your ability to spot someone who is "roiding" brother? TRT is a pretty standard hormonal therapy that helps men with low testosterone levels, it is not comparable to dbol or other literal anabolic steroids. In most men it will improve attitude and mood, not cause "roid rage".
Testosterone supplementation is very unlikely to be causative for what you're running into. Test is incredibly mild in psychological effect (unless you're deficient). This kind of stereotype comes from trenbolone, but I think you shouldn't under-estimate the intersection of steroid users and cocaine users. It's bigger than you might intuitively guess.
Aggression certainly isn't limited to tren, high testosterone & DHT levels in general increase it. This is well understood.
Using TRT for its prescribed effect (baseline "normal" range) likely won't have any impact on this but taking it to go above normal levels certainly could.
I have never tried it but know a lot of bodybuilders who use various steroids. The responsible ones have it that a person shouldn't take them until they've hit their natural limits, then do a limited course (6 weeks) while doing before/after bloodwork, the idea being to push through limits and blow up a bit while on the steroid and then lock in those gains with maintenance exercise, repeating maybe every 6 months or a year if still trying to grow larger. Abusive dosing (larger quantities or longer cycles or doubling up with other drugs like SARMS) are well known to mess up your natural cycle, shrink your junk etc.
I don't care much about young users but I've always wondered why the body stops producing adequate amounts of it as we age. Is it because you're too old to have viable offspring by then (with few exceptions) so there are no selective pressures to maintain testosterone levels? If so, do the benefits of TRT far out weigh the risks at old age?
Oh I get the aging part but it just seems so much easier to fix/maintain compared to aging in other tissues. It's like evolution should have gotten that right.
Why not change to anabolic steroids in title because they’re not talking about corticosteroids. It’s extrapolated from 2015 data also.
There is a lot of talk about negative effects that are widely known. At a bodybuilder or high medicinal level, you can work out multiple times per day at max effort without getting tired and only hungry or sweaty. Your brain will work at the highest efficiency but you may have issues applying it. You may not even need to sleep depending when you take it and for how long.
Using it will either scare you to stop or you can take them until your kidneys fail and you’re in a wheelchair like Ronnie Coleman. If you live long enough maybe you end up with testicular cancer or it supercharges your brain and you end up curing cancer.
Nobody on anabolic steroids can work out at max effort without getting tired, or being able to go without sleep, you're probably thinking of meth, not AAS.
And what do kidneys have to do with processing steroids?
And why bring up Ronnie Coleman as an example when his issue was that, 2 days after spinal surgery, against all recommendations, he decided to squat 800 pounds?
And steroids increase DHT, which can be a risk factor in PROSTATE cancer, not testicular cancer.
Are you speaking from experience as you have used steroids at the levels bodybuilders use or prescribed them? I have. Incorrect dosage timing i.e. taking them in the evening leads to little or no sleep.
Kidneys end up failing soon with all the associated supplements and drugs.
I merely wanted to comment about some side effects and give easy to understand examples because I did not see anyone mention the benefits yet. Thanks for going into more detail than I cared to. I think posting only benefits would be foolish.
I’ve the past several months, due to publicized advancements in LLM tech, I’ve started to read comments on HN and elsewhere with the ready assumption that these fora are prime training grounds for chat bots, and any given post may very well be machine-generated. The parent comment fits the bill completely, down to the username. Of course I can’t tell for sure, and there’s no question that real people have a proven capability for nonsensical statements, but sometimes there is a Mad Libs quality to a comment that makes me regard it as a likely byproduct of some hacker’s AI side project.
Anabolic steroids and growth hormones should be legal, and their dosing programs be easily-obtainable by endocrinologists (though not reimbursable through health insurance)
As it stands, if you've just started bodybuilding and want to get growth hormones, unless you're rich and well-connected enough, a pro or ex-Pro athlete or an A/B-list actor, your best bet is testosterone.
This means going to the black/gray-markets or to forums to:
1. get your supply, which is almost always imported from Eastern Europe or Asia and has variable quality control, and
2. your programming, which is highly dependent on your body (and everyone's body is different!)
Bad programming is what kills/seriously injures people!
Then again, the folks that would rather make this and other hard drugs illegal and horrifically addicting and fatal would probably consider that a feature, not a bug.
157 comments
[ 1.8 ms ] story [ 218 ms ] threadTestosterone is beneficial for everyone. If a man or woman wants to do TRT, it is not illegal to do so. But if they cite some kind of gender dysphoria, it is suddenly extremely taboo.
It's a bit humorous living in a society where roided out podcasters complain about people not accepting their natural identities or hormones
A chiseled look not enough to land someone on its own, but it absolutely will get you a conversation from women who otherwise would not have even talked to you.
> What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same.
There are different women with different preferences. This comment, on its face, doesn't sound like you're talking about a singular woman, but lamenting the fact that one woman is not upfront about the preferences of...another woman she's never met.
- after I started lifting, I started getting attention and conversations I did not get before
- young men are not complete idiots, and can observe that this is true
I had women attracted to me both times, but the type of woman was very different. I also got groped and felt up far more and other far more overt displays of interest by women when muscled.
> The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.
Visit your local bookstore (if there still is one!) and tell me what the men on the covers of those romance novels look like.
I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
> Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner
The word "necessary" is one you uttered.
> while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else.
What relevance does that have? Roids are a different set of tradeoffs from that of working out and playing sports.
> I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
The backlash is not founded on the novelty of gender affirming care; it usually hinges on whether the form of gender affirming care that most people think of when they hear that term is medically sound in many cases and the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder. Some people are pushing back against the very concept of gender affirming care, yes, but the debate is way more complex than that.
> and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
Not everyone agrees that every form of "gender affirming care" is equivalent, or whether it needs to be overly intellectualized in such a manner. A modern westerner might be convinced that use of Rogaine should be classified as "gender affirming care" when, in reality, the proximal motivation for the vast majority of men using Rogaine is because they want to keep their hair.
> the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder
This is the kind of thing people said about being gay, bi or lesbian back in the day, and only the most hateful and bigoted say that now. In ten years time you'll either look back at comments like this and cringe with embarrassment, or you'll be one of those miserable, hate-filled bigots. I hope for your sake it's the former.
It's all this pesky society that won't take your word for anything.
EDIT: forgot the link to the study in question https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934340/
(By the time it was closed down the queues at the Tavistock were on the order of years, so lots of UK trans people have had to go private at some point)
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: we already asked you once to stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait, and your account has unfortunately continued to do this. We end up having to ban such accounts because this is not what this site is for and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them, we'd appreciate it.
It's in no way a controversial or baity observation.
I get that it's a new concept for you, but your assumption was misplaced.
I think there are 4 groups of people who take hormones.
1. Those who take them for competitive advantage in sports
2. Those who take them because a doctor has told them that their body is producing less than it should be
3. Those who take them because they want the physical attributes that goes along with it because of how they identify
4. Biohackers
All of those reasons are valid
Re prior flamebait comments, I was thinking of (at least) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36546191 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36541462.
I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc in the box who manages to find "low T"
It's just so easy now. And if you need it, great. But for a lot of people it's just a way to boost T for athletic/aesthetic reasons without a ton of attention to the health side of it.
The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.
If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.
From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude.
In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
No one in a gym is made insecure by someone who is clinically obese, irrespective of how much they can lift. It's even more ridiculous when you realize how many of these people are obese, and on steroids.
In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part.
My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless.
I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male.
This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.
Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep.
Totally not the same thing.
"whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels". Not sure why you are so persistent on alluding to gender. These discussions have nothing to do with gender dsyphoria.
Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors.
- the reference range has been adapted times and times again
- testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times
- for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy"
Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.
Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations.
Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
in this case, reference ranges are adapted so people don't qualify for therapy. The side effects of the low levels don't change just because you change the reference range
>Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically.
My exhaustive reasearch has shown the opposite. Interestinglingly, even older guys now have higher testosterone levels than younger guys. So you can even see it in the living specimen.
>Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind.
1. doctors say that, en masse.
2. There is some evidence that the lower testosterone levels are caused by injuries and dysfunctions. At least some studies point to that. An analogy: Age doesn't cause bad teeth. Caries and injuries cause bad teeth. If these don't happen, teeth stay healthy. Saying it's normal that your teeth fall out is lazy.
>The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
You are partially right. Testosterone is regulated through estrogene. Having high estrogene limits your testosterone production. Obesity and less sport is sufficient.
But a lot of non-obese and healthy people who work out also have low testosterone levels
Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go.
I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test.
At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route.
For what it's worth I am in France not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.
Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor).
Look also into thyroid etc
Thankfully here I get all my results directly in accessible formats (so like a normal video for my MRI results) so I can easily research myself or go for a second opinion without the hassle of having to get my results like back in the UK.
Having said that the Endocrinologist I saw was highly recommended by a close Doctor friend so I have confidence in them.
After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>'). Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0]
The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that.
I started TRT back in July of 2022.
After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect).
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ [0] https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(...
Your initial experience is weirdly similar to mine. My doctor has given me a few different antidepressants over the past 2 and a bit years (Escitalopram, Amitriptyline, Sertraline to name three) but they just made me worse in that I put on weight (which now will not fucking leave!), awful sleep, my penis became useless, and I was just angry 95% of the time. I was a truly awful person to be around and I felt so sorry for my wife and son having to put up with me. So I told him they're not working and we need to look at other ways of treating this depression and anxiety.
He sent me for a testosterone check I think as a bit of a way to just shut me up as I kept asking him what else can we do. He was surprised when it came back at 257ng/dL but as it was above the 249 bottom end he was like "it's a bit low but in the normal range". Thankfully I have a friend that is a doctor and they put me in touch with an Endocrinologist who agreed under 300 at least deserves some further blood work and check I don't have a pituitary gland issue which can cause a lot of my symptoms.
My symptoms are:
* extreme fatigue (to the point of falling asleep in my office chair)
* easily exhausted when exercising
* much longer recovery times from exercising, when I used to have maybe a day or two of muscle aches from pushing myself a bit more to build muscle it would now take me 3 to 4 weeks to recover.
* My concentration is garbage
* Cannot lose the weight around my abdomen. I managed to lose around 13KG back in 2020 yet put it back on thanks to the SSRIs mentioned above and doing the same things I did the first time just does not shift the weight
* Depression but it feels different to my previous experiences with depression not to mention it seems treatment resistant this time whereas before I found Sertraline was at least somewhat effective.
* Heart palpitations that are extremely uncomfortable
* Terrible sleep. It often takes me 2 hours to finally get to sleep and my sleep quality as measured by my FitBit is awful compared to a few years ago (first time the sleep tracking came in helpful)
* Very irritable and easily frustrated
I don't know how that compares to your list of symptoms but they have absolutely wrecked me the past few years. I am just hoping to god there is something of value found in my blood results so I can start working on improving things.
As I said I don't know if I will jump on TRT as it does worry me a little bit. There is no such thing as side effect free HRT after all but my wife has said I should keep an open mind and listen to my Endocrinologist who has said she would recommend it if my blood work comes back with levels in line with ~250ng/dL. I will see what the results are though, if I'm under 250 I think I will have to seriously considering just trying it for a few months. If I am around 300 I think I would rather try some natural ways and retest in 2-3 months and see if it has helped at all. If not then I will give TRT a try.
Brother, it sounds like your life is made of horrendous side effects. I am just a random internet commenter, not a doctor, but I am a fellow man. And if there were ever a time to ignore your fear and roll the dice, it's now.
I am naturally a bit of a worrier about "big" medication regimes like TRT and I over research and over think everything which is obviously not a great thing when it comes to medicine as everything has side effects.
I am slowly starting to adjust my mindset with regards to trying TRT but I need to see what my results are to help me make a decision.
I was like you before I started TRT, super hesitant, and worried I would just be poisoning myself. A good friend of mine kept pushing me to try, and I can't say I have any regrets.
For me personally, I wouldn't want to come off TRT, I feel so much better consistently. IMHO, there are no downsides, at least none yet that I've experienced.
Not trying to second guess your health situation, but I don't see anything about exercise on here. You don't have to go crazy with it (unless you want to), but istm everyone should do some exercise. Walking at leisurely pace helps but I don't really count that as exercise - by that I mean something that gets your heart pumping or significantly tires you out, eg a long walk at a really fast pace or with a loaded rucksack. Obviously this will be different for people who struggle with obesity or have joint issues, but you don't mention any physical handicaps so I'm assuming you have full mobility.
Absolutely, like shutting off your body's natural T production (!)
Like RFK you will regularly (every day) see men in their 60s that have the muscle mass and definition of someone in their 20s. It’s still a lot of hard work, and I’m not calling it cheating, but it’s extremely obvious.
There’s a lot of talk of female beauty standards but looking at The Rock, Hugh Jackman, and countless others all the diet and training in the world cannot maintain that physique into their fifties. It’s ridiculous they do interviews and give the classic “broccoli and chicken” line. Personally I’m also skeptical younger actors are able to achieve physiques that are top tier for professional athletes naturally - and often do it in months between roles.
Even when they give details of their training (two a days for hours) that’s just not possible at that age without the tremendous improvements in recovery that performance enhancing drugs provide.
Doubly sleazy for those that are selling something claiming it's how they achieved their results. Not unlike the Kardashians selling some juice, make up, or whatever and attributing their appearance to it. The real answer is lighting, all kinds of editing/tuning apps, surgery, extreme and regular dermatological procedures, veneers, etc. It's their job and they employ every single trick in the book possible and then some to achieve these results.
It's incredible how far the standards have moved. I was re-watching Terminator 2 the other day. Looking at Arnold Schwarzenegger in that role his physique is more-or-less the standard for "action heroes" today and needless to say he's essentially a freak of nature (and has openly discussed his steroid use). There have been advancements in sport and exercise training but not nearly enough to make up that difference.
Christian Bale went from a "should be hospitalized" gaunt physique in The Machinist to Batman in a year - that's just not possible without chemical intervention.
Unfortunately it's also risky for them to tell the truth ("I achieved this with some sketchy prescriptions of otherwise-illegal drugs")
[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEce1DRsRwQ
Here's The Rock[1] at 48 years old. You can search for in-role Ryan Reynolds, Chris Hemsworth, Henry Cavill, etc, etc - Joe is tiny by comparison and all of these actors seem to get bigger and bigger as they age (look at any of them from roles 10 years ago) - which is the exact opposite of what happens to men as they age.
Here's an example[2] of what they look like (in "Hollywood" shape, but normal for age) when not tuned-up to the max on whatever they do/take for these roles.
[0] - https://www.essentiallysports.com/ufc-mma-news-unlike-the-li...
[1] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9166911/Dwayne...
[2] - https://www.popsugar.com/celebrity/photo-gallery/43926966/im...
On the getting bigger thing, muscle is cumulative as long as you keep exercising it. I have always assumed The Rock was on gear while wrestling (although he had a great frame to begin with) but I don't find it odd that he can maintain that at 48.
I do think it's fair to assume that if Hemsworth openly its likely to be possible more young kids will take it. But it also depends on how he talks about it.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
Can't copy and paste from it. Section 6.5. I may have misinterpreted it though to be honest, and I don't have time to get back into it in depth.
Update: Whoops. Apparently, the submitter neglected to mention "anabolic" in the title. That's a pretty glaring omission.
> The report refers specifically to the use of anabolic steroids, which can be used to increase muscle mass, and not the use of corticosteroids, which are used to treat a wide range of medical conditions.
EDIT: I just remembered this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/24/why-ther...
> But more surprising was the amount of hordenine and ostarine – described by the programme-makers as often being found in gym supplements, which made up more than half of the pharmaceuticals found.
Ostarine is a SARM, and supposedly there was more of that than cocaine or MDMA residue in a London sewer "fatberg."
Edit: government data says I am wrong. 25-29, apparently. But that's based on self-reporting so I do wonder.
But it's also genetic (I know taboo right). That some people can gain much easily and/or maintain muscle easily.
Or maybe you're doing drugs (alcohol), not sleeping right, not enough protein,etc.
Or a combination of these all.
For a lot of people the gym is a relaxing "third place"[1] that they truly are sad to miss for a period of time.
I'm sure some percentage are augmenting, but it is surprising how common it to see people on social media declaring that people with the slightest bit of definition or muscles as steroid users.
[1] Should we call it the "second place" in the era of WFH?
Not at all in my case. In my youth gyms were places for hooligans, _heavy_ steroids abusers, low end criminals, and thus places to avoid. Then spent some years in Germany where gym contracts are famously predatory and abusive, again a place to avoid. Only around 2 years ago had found a civilized place finally. Starting to visit regularly meant to actually overcome some traumas.
That's like not brushing your teeth for a month, it's not the done thing. The Americans I know don't even take a month off work, lol.
Sit on the couch, smoke, eat chocolate. Your mileage may vary.
I did do an unholy amount of exercise from 12-20 (rowing), which may have put a few epigenetic switches in useful locations, as before that I was a spherical child, but honestly, I have no idea how I maintain cardio and strength with frankly small bursts of infrequent activity.
...or you just find an open minded andrologist who gives you TRT.
(I would be really surprised if this figure is higher than the USA, considering the differences in regulation)
There seems to be a massive grey market for peptide SARMs at least in the US
Unfortunately it looks like a few tik-tok kids are going to ruin it for everyone. Same as most good things in life I guess.
Using TRT for its prescribed effect (baseline "normal" range) likely won't have any impact on this but taking it to go above normal levels certainly could.
What an unhinged comment
As our organs, tissues and glands age, they decrease their output including our testes.
This paper goes a bit into detail:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8619877/
edit: perhaps that isn't strictly TRT though - ianad
There is a lot of talk about negative effects that are widely known. At a bodybuilder or high medicinal level, you can work out multiple times per day at max effort without getting tired and only hungry or sweaty. Your brain will work at the highest efficiency but you may have issues applying it. You may not even need to sleep depending when you take it and for how long.
Using it will either scare you to stop or you can take them until your kidneys fail and you’re in a wheelchair like Ronnie Coleman. If you live long enough maybe you end up with testicular cancer or it supercharges your brain and you end up curing cancer.
Nobody on anabolic steroids can work out at max effort without getting tired, or being able to go without sleep, you're probably thinking of meth, not AAS.
And what do kidneys have to do with processing steroids?
And why bring up Ronnie Coleman as an example when his issue was that, 2 days after spinal surgery, against all recommendations, he decided to squat 800 pounds?
And steroids increase DHT, which can be a risk factor in PROSTATE cancer, not testicular cancer.
Kidneys end up failing soon with all the associated supplements and drugs.
I merely wanted to comment about some side effects and give easy to understand examples because I did not see anyone mention the benefits yet. Thanks for going into more detail than I cared to. I think posting only benefits would be foolish.
As it stands, if you've just started bodybuilding and want to get growth hormones, unless you're rich and well-connected enough, a pro or ex-Pro athlete or an A/B-list actor, your best bet is testosterone.
Most PCPs won't prescribe it unless your levels are seriously low, and most endos won't do it either unless you go to one of those weird T clinics like this one: https://testosteroneclinicpro.com/testosterone-treatment-for...
This means going to the black/gray-markets or to forums to:
1. get your supply, which is almost always imported from Eastern Europe or Asia and has variable quality control, and
2. your programming, which is highly dependent on your body (and everyone's body is different!)
Bad programming is what kills/seriously injures people!
Then again, the folks that would rather make this and other hard drugs illegal and horrifically addicting and fatal would probably consider that a feature, not a bug.