Ask HN: Any hardware startups here?

509 points by guzik ↗ HN
Amidst the sea of software startups, I'm keen to learn who in our community is braving the often-quoted "hardware is hard" mantra. Whether you're working on IoT, robotics, consumer electronics, or something completely off the wall, please feel free to share below.

Remember, no venture is too small or niche! It's the passion and innovation that counts.

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An education network of science labs connecting schools, science centers, libraries, and museums around the world to live missions aboard the International Space Station. I could always use help: https://exolab.space
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We have a unidirectional gateway with a complete protocol break. Sales are picking up. We’re hoping to deliver a guard later this year.

Hardware may be hard, but what’s really hard are high assurance attack resistant systems.

is it cross domain solution?
It is. Supports file transfers (sftp push and pull), XML (basically file with schema validation, different filters on each side of the protocol break), and TCP and UDP steaming.

We’re proud of how fast it is, among other things.

Sounds interesting. Do you have any formal verification tools in your tech stack?

p.s. are you hiring?

> p.s. are you hiring?

We're always interested in talking to potential candidates, but unless you're in Ottawa work would be truly remote (we all WFH, but we get together at least monthly for lunch, save for the folks in the Maritimes, the UK, etc.).

My HN userid at sphyrnasecurity.com

What protocol? Control systems type stuff?
File and XML (file with schema validation) via sftp, and TCP and UDP streaming. In streaming mode, useful for getting logs, etc., from a SCADA network to a business mode. In block mode, handy for pushing patches the other way.

Among other things.

As someone who used to work at an IoT company the consumer space is brutal. Unless you've got something you can sell for 10x BOM, or there's naturally a subscription based model then it's not worth the blood, sweat, and tears.
10x BOM? Why is the bar so high for profitably?

There are manufacturing costs, marketing and inventory risk. But still… what am I missing?

The probability and cost of failure? And/or alternative revenue streams with lower volatility available to people with the skill to pull it off.
NRE into the production line, especially hard tooling for plastic is huge. Plus all those things you mentioned, especially inventory risk are often underestimated.

Don't forget that any manufacturing run itself is a huge risk. Tiny changes that need to be made to address anything from RF performance to fit and finish can invalidate a run and just burn up hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars (depending on scale)

Yea, that’s why I’m not using plastics for my product.
Even for something like HDPE? I did a project a while ago that was effectively a pontoon workboat. We used HDPE pontoons in lieu of stainless steel and the cost savings was about 25%. I assume that the raw materials (basically large diameter HDPE pipe) and plastic welding tools were just that much cheaper/easier.

I was interested in doing a new HDPE product development on my own, but I'm a bit nervous this is a deep tooling rabbit hole.

The math is this: BOM + cost to acquire a customer + cost to sell the unit < sale price

Otherwise you don't have a business. Please don't ask me how I know this.

10x is a rule of thumb, YMMV. You just need to make the above inequality evaluate to true. You can (maybe) raise money to deal with the various non-recurring expenses. Oh and you should pay your employees too.

:D

I’d love to get your advice, can I contact you?

Dude, I'm just an engineer who can do basic arithmetic.
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Yeah, but you'd be amazed how few people do that basic arithmetic!
It's not that it's hard to do the math, but it's hard to find product market fit where that inequality is satisfied. And sometimes people think they are gods gift to hardware design and can't be reasoned with to do a cost down.
The more 0s you add the closer you get to how Apple prices its products I guess.
QA/QC is very expensive, especially for low volume. You send something out to a customer, they claim its broken, you ship out a replacement at your expense, maybe the customer eventually sends back the broken one, then it sits on the shelf for 2 years because you don't have the manpower to do a root cause investigation. Now you've sold 300 units and have replaced 50 of these and you have no idea why they're broken, what went wrong, and have to a a full validation of each one from scratch. Most of them seem to work fine in your test lab (maybe it was the customer's fault? But maybe your design is incompatible with their production environment?) and the rest all have unique problems which each take 1-5 full days of investigation to nail down a root cause.

Maybe 2-3 share a single root cause, and it's not clear how you'd prevent this from happening in the future.

If you're shipping large volumes, this can add 10% to the MSRP, but if you're shipping low volumes, $50-100/hr of weeklong diagnosis and investigation can easily add 50-300% to the price of each unit.

And that's if everything else is going perfectly. Which means you lucked out and found an amazing Chinese contract manufacturer who works with you hand-in-hand to fix any design bugs and manufacturing issues, and ensure parts availability.

If you're doing such low volume, yet your service and customer relations is based on big corp style, sure you're going to have big problems. If you sell only 300 of something, and returns are coming in, you should be figuring out why ASAP. And probably talking to the people before they attempt to send it back.
That's pretty much what they are saying as far as I can tell? My experience is pretty similar to theirs, root cause analysis takes a lot of time per device, and there's rarely once single failure cause for all of them.
Supply chain into consumers is brutal: retail outlets mark up products by 100% (ie you sell them something for $100, they sell it for $200). If you use a distributor, that's another 100% markup. 10x BoM on consumer price means that some of your biggest sales channels to consumers (BestBuy, Walmart, Target) are paying you 25-33% of what they get from customers. To get your own markup, you need 8x BoM.
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We make a camera system for construction sites. Using computer vision, we can identify when and for how long subcontractors show up as well as notify our customers of unwanted behavior on site.

https://bedrockwireless.com/

Fun fact, we probably have the best port-o-potty detector in the world.

Always nice to see another ConTech!
If this were a camera that identified when and for how long a software engineer showed up to the office and notified their employer of "unwanted behavior", how long would it take for that story to end up on the front page of this site and torn apart as invasive and infantilizing?
I guess I would say that subcontractors are more like hourly workers (who are time tracked meticulously in almost all industries) - not salaried like software engineers, who would deserve the respect and absence of tracking.
Not really, in the housing industry, it is generally job bid instead. The contractor taking longer just means they get paid later and don't get as many jobs done.

Also, Unions hate this right?

It's less about tracking how long they're there and more about when they showed up. We do the former because we can, but the GC really wants to know if and when their subs are showing up without having to be on site 24/7 waiting for them.

For example, they can look back through yesterdays events to see that their plumber showed up - and then they'll know they need to go check on the work. The alternative is trying to get the plumber on the phone to figure out if the work had been completed or not - which is difficult in 2023.

There's not a lot of unioned workers in most states for residential construction. But autoworkers, and anything else in manufacturing would be used to the constant monitoring. Commercial construction also typically has fulltime site superintendents, who would do this anyway.

That's an interesting angle. My Father actually, by chance, owns a residential drywall and finishing business. The 'did the plumber show up' factor is key. Though I'm not sure why this couldn't be solved by having the subs of a builder agree to give basic job updates. How do residential customers feel about someone's camera watching their house?
Anything that makes the GC more efficient is going to be a win for the future homeowner. This might get more problematic for remodels, but we primarily work with new home builds.

The GC can often bill it down to the homeowner as antitheft, which reduces time/money to complete the build. The biggest being time. An example, if custom windows are stolen, it could delay a project by months right now.

If you've worked with these people you know that there's nothing "basic" about getting job updates.
I would argue salary employees deserve more tracking since they are given more freedoms. An hourly worker is paid hourly, and given tasks at a much smaller interval.. often by day and sometimes every few hours. If you have quarterly goals for salary employees, they probably need more 'tracking' to make sure they are doing what you expect as time goes on.
Thanks to both the parent for raising the ethical issues in this product and to OP for responding/addressing them. Our industry gets a lot better when we don't shy away from both asking and answering these kinds of questions!
So to clarify: as long as a worker is hourly, they don't deserve any privacy or respect, and can be surveilled at will. That's pretty incredible.
Hourly means “paid by the hour,” so verifying time on the job is directly related to salary. “Punching in” on remote worksites is the problem being solved with this solution.
I think if these got to the point of "worker stared at floor for 7 minutes" it would be invasive. If it tracks when a vehicle shows up to site and leaves.

That being said, as someone with digestion issues, tracking bathroom habits is offensive.

In short, yes this is invasive. But much like AI, this type of thing isn't going away, there is just going to be more lawsuits about it in the future.

We don't track port-o-potty use, just if they move. Vandalism is at an all time high on construction sites, tipping port-o-johns is a common teenage prank and the GC needs to know if and when this is happening on sites (and hopefully catch the perpetrators).
Hmmm… going to start a company that makes portapotty anchors!
Software engineers have full-time managers (which are a lot more overhead to pay for but kinda serve that purpose from the client perspective) and are paid well enough and consistently enough to usually only work one job on a given day. Subcontractors sometimes do decide not to show up to your job site because another employer offered them a bonus to do theirs that day instead. The point isn't (only) to humiliate or do a show of power to the workers, it's to counter an economic incentive they have.

That said, for a lot of subcontractor trades, it's so hard to find anyone that I'd worry about the reverse: you get known as "the freaks with the cameras" and no one good bids on your stuff anymore, and then the delivery is even more delayed.

> it's to counter an economic incentive they have.

I think economists would call that a feature and not a bug. It is essentially an auction (something economists LOVE). You could instead take that money that you're spending on surveillance and instead spend it on giving the contractors a bonus to show up to your place instead.

I really don't buy that this would "shame" them into coming to your place first. Everyone already is aware that they don't always show up because you got out bid. You're "solving" the problem the wrong way because you're not addressing the actual problem.

I would imagine shaming doesn't work because I think residential GCs have higher demand for workers than there is supply, but the cameras still solve the problems of making it easier for the GC to react when it happens (and the reaction could be offer to pay that sub more if the project is late or all the other subs have been showing up, realizing the work from the earlier stage wasn't done, and going home, or it could be lengthening their project schedule).
Perhaps the GCs are unaware of the surveillance themselves
Maybe a gentle reminder that automated surveillance happened to us first, by our own kind nonetheless. It's now a norm in the industry.
This is great! I built a house and DIY'ed this because our site was 2 hours away from where we were living at the time.

It was clear (our) GC was not used to this because they were constantly telling us that things were happening when they very clearly weren't (thanks to the live video we had from to the site).

We occasionally get the homeowner to buy our product to monitor their GC - the GC always hates this. This in-turn leads us to recommending that the GC (if they're the buyer [most common]) to never share it with the future homeowner as that usually causes the GC to be overburdened by the homeowner.

I applaud you creating your own solution, many GCs can do this, but most can't or don't want to deal with it.

Looks neat, is your core product the AI for the construction site object detection?
We make the whole camera system because we couldn't find anything on the market that allowed us to do the AI we wanted. The value for the customer is all in the AI tracking and security detection as well as the ability to just login live and see what's happening on site. So, yes, our core product is our software, but we had to make the hardware to capture market share.
Your website shows OEM cameras and an off the shelf plastic enclosure, along with basic LED floodlights. What hardware are you making? Not saying your product isn't cool, just not clear what hardware you are "making" vs. assembling.
You're not wrong. We have custom boards inside to handle the AI compute and power, but we mostly do assembly.

If a software startup assembles a bunch of open source hardware together and packages it as a product, would you say they don't "make" software?

Is assembly manufacture? Is glueing together FOSS libs coding? Probably not but I'm No True Hacker.
If a software startup assembles a bunch of open source hardware together and packages it as a product, would you say they don't "make" software?

No, I'd say they are more of a software company than a hardware company though. All software runs on some kind of hardware, but these days it is pretty rare for that hardware to be very unique or custom.

I was mostly just curious what custom hardware you had, since that was the topic at hand. My curiosity comes from working in the surveillance AI space for the last ~15 years, and having done a number of custom (as in we made the whole thing) cameras with AI, but now there is a trend more towards using a lightly OEM'd camera with custom firmware in many cases.

Considering the availability of cameras with advanced SoCs capable of doing edge inference, I wanted to ask more about your hardware and your design choices in this market, but I think I'll just bow out. Good luck with your startup!

This is a bit like saying "I made you a birthday cake", when what you did is bought a cake and bought some candles, and stuck the candles in the cake. It's of course semantics, but I imagine people would look at you funny if you said you "made" them a cake when you clearly bought them one.
This is pretty neat. I'm wondering if something like this (on a smaller scale) could be used to catch the elusive illegal dumper in my neighborhood.
We're working on this solution. Most housing projects have a semi-permanent dumpster, but GC's often have problems with people dumping in their houses' dumpsters, causing them to pay for more refills on their dumpster, which can get expensive.

Since we record motion on site, we typically catch the illegal dumpers, but it's hard to pick out from the many motion events that may occur on a construction site.

Many years ago I worked at a startup doing this - putting cameras on tower cranes. Fun times. Took a while to find PMF and the startup ended up going under. Good times, was super fun!
How does knowing someone is on site lead to an increase in anything production wise? All they'd have to do is wander around and look busy. Some people are willing to do this over real work despite it being a task in itself.
Subcontractors are businesses, if they're paying people to wander around on site, they have big problems.

It's more about the fact that GCs struggle to get accurate schedules around when their subs will show up, the subs are in too high of a demand (think plumbers, electricians, framers). So they ask the subs to come out and complete a job and the sub responds with, "we'll be there sometime next week." Sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't. GCs need to know when and if they are showing up.

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how big of a pain point is this?
Intresting but I dont see something disruptive here, it may work in some specific places but in other countries like Mexico (where I live), someone could easily destroy or damage it, also the connectivity issue in rural areas (where a lot of the building market is interested) should be an issue... maybe it has a business niche but I cant see the mass adoption and innovation here
I'm wondering what the benefit is here. Pretty much every job site has a pole with security cameras installed already. What does this do that wouldn't be done with building an integration for your analytics for the major VMS out there?
We make a system for assisting self-evacuation from tunnels using directional sound effects:

https://norphonic.com/products/evacsound/

Most of the userspace work including the planner, fire detection, resource scheduling and distributed execution is done in Common Lisp.

Fascinating. Our Volvo does this for backing up and getting warnings from sensors. It uses the individual speakers from the direction of the issue. Works great.
Yep it's really nice augmentation. In a tunnel there are challenges though which aren't an issue in a compartment. The effects have to work for any person in miles long tunnels, with reverb/echo times in multiple seconds. They have to read off even with the noise from smoke extraction fans. Plus the practicalities of synchronized distributed operation, dealing with battle damage/attrition etc.
uhm, I need to introduce you to someone, who has developed this into a patented delivery via a baseball cap (hat) bill with directional indicators via LED to give you wayfinding HUD without a screen....
There's been lots of such ideas floating (and patented). But no evacuation method that relies on a motorist having any device or app on them is feasible.
No - this is to integrate into the fire fighters helmets. Telling them routes, supply caches, other team members... and they turn their head and get wayfinding directionals based on color RGBs in hat...
Tried this in the past, indeed hard to do, and, very heavy on cash investment, don't even think about bootstrapping it, crowdfunding might be the only way moving forward unless you somehow received huge investment.

Most important thing is "ecosystem" to me, i.e. the logistics of ICs, PCB factories, upstream and downstream vendors, etc are all in the same place or city, I don't see anywhere in US that provides this yet.

I went to Shenzhen instead, which has everything a hardware startup dreamed of, COVID kind of screwed it up for me though, back to software stuff.

Would love to pick your brain. Have an email?
I'd also be interested in picking your brain. If you happen to have time, send me an email.
We make edge AI cameras. After focusing on services for a while, it has been a different type of journey to switch to the product. We did an open source pilot product on esp32, and got surprisingly more interest than we thought, so now we are working on a high performance (4k, 60fps, AI chip) device.

Lite-esp32 camera https://www.crowdsupply.com/maxlab/tokay-lite Source-code: https://github.com/maxlab-io/tokay-lite-pcb

Pro camera updats will be posted here: https://maxlab.io/store/tokay-riscv-camera/

How do these compare to the Luxonis cameras? https://www.luxonis.com/
Not OP, but I'm very familiar with both.

Luxonis is way more powerful and has an Intel VPU (Movidius). It's not really meant to be a standalone platform, so it needs a host board (Linux SBC like the Pi). It takes a lot more power, but it can do 60fps on small Yolo models. Its resolution is a lot higher as well.

ESP32-S3 has a pretty small memory capacity, and doesn't have H264-H265 hardware encoding, so you'll be on low-res, low-fps. It only does MJPEG (AFAIK) streaming, so you'll also have to deal with high latency if you want to send that data somewhere. The big bonus is that it's low-cost and low-power, and you're running it directly on the core without an OS.

This means you can do stuff like sleep the cores until something wakes it up (like a PIR sensor that detects people), and it will start streaming in a second or two.

TL;DR: Luxonis stronk, but needs big batteries or plugged in. ESP32-S3 can run on small batteries or solar.

Ngl I really wish Luxonis cameras supported running standalone after being configured once, OpenVino is such a heckin chonker to install and manage.
The ESP32-P4 has hardware accelerators for media-encoding, including H.264. Might want to check it out.
Is it out yet?

I'm desperately waiting for it to be available.

Since they announced it half a year ago I would have expected engineering samples to be available by now, but there is nothing.
Could you please clarify what you mean by ‘AI’?
By "AI" here I mean cameras that support running machine vision models directly on the device. We provide the device and firmware, and then on the application and model level it is up to the user.
We’re early stage, just fundraising now, but we’re working on building the first generation of molecular nanotechnology devices for machine-phase chemistry and the construction of gemstone-based nano machinery.

We’re interested in talking to people of all backgrounds who want to make Drexler’s vision of nanotechnology a near-term reality. Send us an email: hello@machinephase.systems

Basically my dream job
I don't really understand what they're making and what differentiates their product. Is it a private cloud but designed so you can just drop it in place and turn it on instead of having to set up the cloud?
It's server racks with basically iLO on steroids.

To be fair, simply being server a company that's easy to deal with is enough of a differentiator in this space. Would absolutely blindly buy from them just to avoid having to deal with HPE/Dell

I understood that company to be Supermicro, though I've never dealt with them so I could be wrong.
>To be fair, simply being server a company that's easy to deal with is enough of a differentiator in this space. Would absolutely blindly buy from them just to avoid having to deal with HPE/Dell

I'm in the server business (within a very specific niche). I wish I could find more people like you.

www.sentineldevices.com

We use machine learning to monitor industrial equipment for signs of faults or failures, and identify in real-time which signals are relevant to the failure/which ones a technician should look at first. The problem we're solving is that when a machine fails unexpectedly, 60% or more of a technician's time is spent just figuring out what was going on and what, specifically, went wrong. We want to cut that time by half or more by having our device be an engineer-in-a-box monitoring the equipment 24/7/365. We're also unique in that we're "zero-cloud" - we do all data collection, storage & processing (yes, even the AI training - not just inference) on-device, on a COTS hardware platform that fits in your hand. The idea is to be truly plug-and-play without having to figure out network infrastructure, and cybersecurity, and data storage costs, etc. etc. Demo video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhtLS3UfnPU&feature=youtu.be

We're always interested in pilots; our website is admittedly fairly stealth mode, but if you know someone that works at a factory, they can reach out to forrest.shriver@sentineldevices.com

We (https://www.converge.io) both build sensors (and SaaS) and work with 3rd party sensors to analyse concrete operations and material performance for construction to help make it more efficient and sustainable.

Hardware is definitely hard.

I worked for a home automation kind of thing a few years back and... it's hard. The part I worked on in software was fun, but it's just so difficult to deal with the lead times and difficulty of updating things and doing customer service.

More power to you if you're making a go of it.

Years ago, I worked on these, and it was so much fun, because of the variety of (smart) people involved, from tracing the light rays through the machine to motors, firmware, and all the rest. https://www.icare-world.com/us/product/icare-eidon/

I am making and selling an eink smart screen.

It can display a google calendar.

You can also point it to any url that serves an image.

Is it okay to post a link?

https://shop.invisible-computers.com/products/invisible-cale...

I am planning to release more applications for it and I am opening the platform for 3rd party applications.

I see that shipping to Europe is not yet supported. Do you have plans soon?
CE certification is extremely expensive for a bootstrapped startup.

Plus there is Elektroschrottverordnung and Verpackungsrichtlinie and all that stuff.

You can send me an email at info@invisible-computers.com

Wait, you are situated in Flensburg but not shipping to EU? That seems rather interesting... Do you also manufacture in germany or have you sourced that out?
The wood is CNC'd in Germany, the metal back cover is from Spain. :)

PCB and screens are from China. The final assembly happens in my home.

I try to run a short supply chain to limit my inventory risk.

I'd love to get this but for iCal display. Any chance that's in the cards in the future?
It’s in the cards, pretty high in the stack, but I never make promises.

If you can write code and you don’t want to wait for me to add it to the default calendar app, you can build it and release it as a 3rd party app:

https://github.com/Invisible-Computers/image-gallery/blob/ma...

Got it. I'm not the right person to build this functionality so I'll just wait to see if it comes and buy later if so!
Very cool! Are you able to make a full-time living off this product yet?
Not yet. I’m hoping to, so I can fully focus on it.
Give it Home Assistant integration, or at least MQTT control, and I'd buy at least one
> You can configure this beautiful the e-paper display to poll any HTTP endpoint for an image. Just paste the URL into the iOS or Android app. The image will then be displayed on the screen. And when it changes, the screen updates.

Looks pretty simple to do.

I think the idea would be to be support a way to set that HTTP URL via an API, not requiring use of an iOS/Android app?

I imagine this might be a case of documentation and support as supposedly the app is already using the API endpoints we'd like to have.

Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean. How would you physically connect to this API without an app and without a backend?
I'm not saying necessarily without a backend. Just being able to "self-service" via API (ie if everything I can do via the app, I can do via curl, it could be interesting).

Self-hostable backend (benefits: privacy; less trust required; I know it'll still be usable even if you shut down your backend in 5y) would of course be great but a separate thing to the above.

Do you use an ESP32? Could you? You could use ESPHome https://esphome.io/

Ideally the device can create a wifi hotspot when it isn't setup that I can join and setup all the needed config settings. WLED does this as well https://kno.wled.ge/

Do you have docs on the API / integration mentioned here and on the website? Would be good to know in broad strokes before buying one. Sample apps and whatnot
I'll purchase once Outlook calendar is supported natively.
I'm guessing since it's plugged in, there was no way to make it last long enough on a battery?

Love the idea, will bookmark it for the future office!

Battery is harder to make safe and harder to certify as safe.

Plus, I like the idea of plugging it in and never having to worry about it.

Still, I am thinking about adding a battery about twice per week, so it's definitely on my mind.

Consider a "bring your own battery" option where you have an interface that's moderately standard.
Any chance you'll do a larger one? I've wanted exactly this but closer to ~13-inch to replace the "family wall calendar".

It looks great, though! Any good place to follow/subscribe for updates?

So far I only have an instagram: https://www.instagram.com/invisiblecomputers/

Larger displays are not excluded as a possibility, but I like the current size for placing it on the desk. Also, larger displays are disproportionately expensive, and the display is already the main cost driver.

Totally fair. I hadn't checked the cost of larger e-ink, and you're right, I probably wouldn't pay $500 for the same thing you're making but 13".

Still going to keep an eye on it, though. I may end up talking myself (more accurately, my wife) into a smaller display.

For the same price one can buy a 10.5" Galaxy Tab A8. But still, very cool. I wish e-paper wasn't expensive as hell and so dreadfully slow to update, it would cut down on energy usage in so many applications.
But the Galaxy Tab doesn't have a paper-like screen ;)
True, but it can also do almost anything instead of just being a calendar and a picture ;)

Any chance of having mini HDMI input to use it as something like an Onyx Boox Mira?

Probably not, I'd like to keep the device as simple as possible. The Onyx Boox already exists and it's great ;)
Oh, a fellow hacker from my little home town :-) Greetings from the other side of the fjord and best of luck with your business!
Love this idea, been waiting for you to ship to Canada and now finally purchased :)

Currently your Android app isn't available in Canada yet though

You're right, thanks for the hint! I have now submitted it to Google to be released in Canada as well. Usually that is approved pretty quickly.
Just ordered. Looking forward to getting it!
This display looks great, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous that you acted on the idea first (; Best of luck, I think the future of e-ink, edge computing, battery efficiency, etc. will only make these types of products even better down the line!
Way cool. Just added this to my Christmas wishlist.

As a non-techy nerd it’s a perfect niche with built in usage and no need to hack. Thank you for posting.

How did you get into e-ink screen programming? I read here that e-inks are a market dominated by one company and that all the toolchain is owned by them, did you make your tools yourself?

Nice product, btw.

I work on software at a hardware startup that is designing and manufacturing a next-generation electrolysis plant for the production of green hydrogen. My personal experience has led me to believe that opportunities to participate meaningfully in climate tech are exclusively available at hardware companies. Anyone attempting to solve climate change with software is at best skimming value off of the work being done by others in the physical world, and at worst creating markets for corporate greenwashing.
Please contact me, see link in profile.
This sounds like great tech. Keep at it for the benefit of all of us.
> Anyone attempting to solve climate change with software is at best skimming value off of the work being done by others in the physical world, and at worst creating markets for corporate greenwashing.

I fully agree with this assessment and I would love to hear more about your product.

> Anyone attempting to solve climate change with software is at best skimming value off of the work being done by others in the physical world, and at worst creating markets for corporate greenwashing.

I've see so a lot of jobs popping up related to SaaS for compliance right now, so things like helping companies stay on top of regulation and track their own efforts and initiatives. I do get the impression that a lot of it is done sincerely, but it does have a hint of ye olde 'selling shovels in a gold rush'.

Still, if it keeps people out of adtech and cryptocurrency it seems like a win.

how do you sell shovels in a gold rush insincerely?
Perhaps if the gold rush is a scam? But if it is real, then it is honest work.
All the easy gold has been dug up, and shovels are no longer practical.
It's sincere if you tell people that you sell shovels. It's insincere if you tell people that you will make all their prospecting dreams come true.
I was recently laid off from a climate tech software company, and one of my former colleagues and I are now working on hardware appliances, solving the problems that our previous company’s software “enabled” other people to solve.

At best, climate tech software makes the necessary hardware cheaper and more effective, or provides important data, but pure software plays in climate tech should be considered greenwashing scams until proven innocent.

Could you elaborate with examples? What about software companies offering data to correct these trends ( with tools) say utility
> Anyone attempting to solve climate change with software is at best skimming value off of the work being done by others in the physical world

With respect - I bet a dollar that the folk at Zoom have done more to reduce automotive pollution than your startup. No hardware startup could have enabled WFH in the absence of calendar, messaging & video conference software.

This is a fantastic point, but Zoom would never have been a candidate for me personally for several reasons:

- As important as reducing our use of fossil fuels is, using less energy is not a solution to the problem of a non-renewable energy system. In that sense, it wouldn't meet the criteria for someone who wants to work on a climate solution.

- While WFH drastically reduces auto emissions, it increases gas & electricity use in the home.

- Zoom is not a mission-driven company and (to my knowledge) their KPIs are not directed at or correlated with their GHG footprint; I would think they see themselves as productivity software, not climate software.

- If Zoom never existed we would be working from home at the same rate, using any of hundreds of other video conferencing apps. In carbon offset terms, their impact does not provide additionality.

Having worked in climate tech for a few years and also following the VCs in that space intently, I believe you've completely nailed it. Seriously, this comment is worth two trillion dollars.
We make the world's best baby car seats. https://www.kioma.us Fatherly Magazine calls it "The Car Seat of the Future". It's been crash tested, flight inversion tested, flammability tested and mom tested. It is full of patented innovations to make kids safer and parenting more enjoyable.

It required lots of material science, production techniques, supply chain adjustments, and a surprising amount of software (to model dynamic stress, and to run the robot and CNC trim paths). Once you get to the point you can clearly articulate your BOM and Specs to a manufacturer for MOQ=50, things get a lot easier. At the prototype stage we built everything ourselves, but now we use OEM manufacturers.

Looks nice and easy to clean. I don't know why the regular "Target car seats" have so many creases and folded layers, it's a major PITA to clean :)
Some are better than the Target basic ones, but even the "good" ones are way too complicated to clean, and it's like they've never even considered a kid might barf whilst in one, and some of the effluent will disappear into some weird crevice never to be revealed again.
Thanks! All the cushions are removable (velcro) so you can hit it with a hose and separately wash the cushions. The interior chassis surface is smooth, which is a big point of pride for us as it is easier to clean.
This feature is totally underrated in industrial design. I've had to clean many fridges over my years and every time I find horrible black mold in all sorts of crevices caused by poor design decisions and decisions based solely on cost.
For anyone else who doesn't know off hand what MOQ stands for...

BOM: bill of materials, aka list of what it takes to manufacture a product

MOQ: minimum order quantity, the lower limit the manufacturer will accept

These look amazing, like they solve all the pain points I've had with car seats over the past five years. I'm a little past that stage now but wish these had been around when I had little babies.
I am a bit skeptical dad but damn these look nice! The price is justifiable, although personally I'd hesitate because the seat is only good for about 2 years, and the seat seems to weigh higher than Nuna products which we got.
More like 18 months or less based on the height and weight limit, completely impractical pricing
You totally underestimate how much baby fever tax first time parents are willing to pay using the logic "once in a lifetime only".
This is exactly what I meant when I said the price is justifiable. It is designed to be advertised as a premium product to an exclusive set of customers.
Lots of couples stair-step their kids. It’s not 18 months for a lot of families. It’s 4-6 years with hand-me-downs.
Baby seats have expiration dates and it’s scary how many parents fall for the emotional manipulation around that. It makes the used car seat market dead as well as hand-me-downs
>it’s scary how many parents fall for the emotional manipulation around that

Are you saying that the expiration dates are bogus? I knew that rated sports helmets and similar products had expirations, but not car seats. Maybe I'll go check the handed-down seat my son is using...

They're basically bogus but put out because people don't bother inspecting the components and the makers really like selling additional ones.

And basically all thrift stores and other used good dealers won't touch them because of the perceived liability.

I wouldn't care about an expiration date, but I avoid the hand-me-down car seat market for the wreck reason. The carseats are only designed to be in one. I personally wouldn't know how to definitively say it had never been in one.
Hand-me-down, to me, connotes reuse within the same (possibly extended) family.

I'm fine sharing our used carseat with my 6yo only child's grandparents so that they can more easily help with my nieces and nephews (2 weeks, 1yo, 3yo, 4yo, and 5yo - oof!). My wife and I know it's not been in an accident, we would not misrepresent that to the detriment of our own family.

But I would not buy one from even the most trustworthy Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace listing imaginable.

I personally would love tamper-evident components within a carseat - think "Tip and Tell" [1] but for 3-axis accelerations. Impact-sensitive product labels exist such as those at [2], but I'm not convinced that the same accelerations and crashes that would damage polystyrene impact-absorbing foam would set off a glass ampule designed to break when you drop a rental camera lens or something like that.

1: https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-866/Damage-Indicators...

2: https://spotsee.io/impact

We actually sold our 2 year old nuna for nearly 75% of it's original price to another family. It had 10 year warranty and not recall/accident. I doubt how much these would go for secondhand. Which is not an issue if you stair-step the seat.
Sizing > Realistically, the seat fits average kids up to 3 years. At the 95% percentile on height most kids will outgrow a rear-facing car seat at 18 months (the growth of the torso is the limiting factor). From a labeling perspective we have to be careful, though, because the US regs on sizing are really terrible. Keep in mind the regs were written in the 1970s when we were still teaching Americans to wear seat belts. So there are 2 "options" in the US regs: 22 lbs 12-month test dummy, and 39 lbs 3-yr old test dummy. Lots of manufacturers claim their seats fit the 39 lbs mark, but they squash the test dummy's legs into an unrealistic position for a child (passes the test by the letter of the law, but misses the spirit of the law). Basically, we designed this seat to fit kids until they are ready for a front-facing seat.

Pricing > It isn't for everyone. The Kioma seat is like a Maserati, but some people prefer a Ford Taurus. We have to charge a price to cover our production and design costs, and there is a quantitative and qualitative difference in the materials and performance of a Kioma car seat.

> The Kioma seat is like a Maserati

Perhaps not the best brand to invoke for a product where reliability is paramount. If you want to convey both luxury and reliability I'd go with Lexus (fancy Toyota).

$1000 is too much for Target and Walmart, but for Beverly Hills, the Hamptons, etc. that's nothing. If your living room has space for a Peleton bike, this will fit right in.
You don't put your Peloton in your living room like some peasant if you're buying a $1000 car seat.
What if you live in a $9000/month 900 square foot condo in the bay area?
"room" for the bike was metonymic for "room" in your budget
I'm the kind of guy that thinks I might be able to sell it for a good price, if it is high quality, after the use. Making the total money spent way less. But that begs the question, why not rent these out for 18 months at a time?
renting assumes previous users properly maintained these seats. Car seats are "supposed" to be disposed of in the event of a collision due to possible cracks or other fatigues in the structure not necessarily visible to the end user. If you rent, you have to assume the seat was not in a structurally significant event. That's a lot of trust.
Given how these car seats are advertised as having high-tech materials, I wonder if the manufacturer can install a crash detection module in them.
Most likely because you can't guarantee how it has been used once the first customer has used it. And that will lead to major legal problems if e.g. it has been in a crash and is now compromised, but nobody noticed, then failed to protect the 2nd child.
The foam doesn't stay good for long, I think the car seats we had expired after 6-7 years?

Also car seats can't be used after a crash, even if visually they looked ok. Maybe they could be refurbished (new foam, etc), but obviously this is a liability concern and probably isn't worth it.

Thanks! We worked really hard on the design to be functionally useful while visually striking. We are fans of Bauhaus design.

Weight > The total weight is probably similar at 10 pounds even. The company you mentioned likes to quote partial system weight and doesn't include the weight of their canopies and inserts. We've already made the lightest car seat in the world (2017, carbon fiber) at 5 pounds all in, and one of the lessons we learned was that adding weight can be a good performance trade if done well.

We also have a baby seat that can pretty much say all the same things. There must be tons of these on the market with swivel etc. What makes this better than the rest?
1. Safety (* see below)

2. Ease of Installation (* see below)

3. Bauhaus Design

4. 1-Hand Operation

5. Ease of Cleaning

6. Built in Rocker (a full one)

7. Quiet (* see below)

* Safety > The US regs are pass/fail so lots of seats on the market have mediocre test scores that don't reflect the real danger of severe concussions. For those of you interested in digging into the obscure world of Head Injury Criterion: greater than 390 HIC is linked with severe concussions (Source: Proposed limits for HIC From Kleinberger et al., 1998, and Eppinger et al., 2000.) Kioma seats do a number of things (crumple zones, etc) to create a lower (better) HIC score. By comparison some of the top sellers in the industry are at 600+ HIC.

* Installation > The regs don't have standards that really address this, but the incredible complexity of legacy car seats has led to a lot of installation errors by parents and caregivers. This can lead to some really unpleasant outcomes and injuries. We designed KIOMA to minimize use and installation errors by making things as simple and intuitive as possible. This seat is optimized for lap belt use only (no base required). The companion base has a number of innovations too that make it intuitive and easier to use.

* Quiet > There are no clicking or snapping or button parts that wake a sleeping child (with the exception of the harness buckle). This is the quietest baby car seat made.

Regarding safety, do you have any links around the test results for the Kioma, or other car seats? You've mentioned a lot about the safety scores/test results in comparison to other car seats, but I couldn't seem to find a single mention of that stuff on the website? I also tried to see if something like Consumer Reports had a review of a Kioma car seat (either the current one or the carbon fiber one) but they had nothing.
Test Results > NHSTA used to publish their test results of all car seats, but no longer do so. FMVSS 213 (the US standard) tests for Head Injury Criterion (36 millisecond), Excursion, and Peak Acceleration in a frontal car crash. So keep in mind the utility of the results has limits, and doesn't test for a whole lot of things that are part of real-world usage in and out of a car. *Big grain of salt.*

I'll give you some real numbers and leave the comparison for you to do (lawyers get itchy if we do the comparing directly). Our carbon fiber seat's best result is HIC 197 in FMVSS 213 testing with a Crabi 12-mo old test dummy. Our friend Eli at Magic Bean's reviewed it in a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGaU9R6jHCQ The current car seat for sale is of a similar class but doesn't have the $2500+ price tag of a carbon fiber seat.

If you're still curious, we can take this off HN: drop me a line at support@kioma.us and just mention HN and your HN profile name.

Why only lap belt? Isofix is so easy.
You get both: isofix/latch as well as lap-belt. Each car seat is sold with an accompanying Latch (aka Isofix) base so you can roll with whatever you prefer. However, lap belts are ubiquitous and work really well.

Reasons to use a base:

1) Convenience. It is nice and fast to click-in, click out with a car seat. Super fast and easy.

2) Protect the seat cushions of the car.

3) More constraints on pitch rotation. Which can be good or bad depending on how the seat is designed and rotation is used.

Reasons to use a lap belt only (no base):

1) It is intuitive. Everyone -- including grandma, grandpa, and the babysitter -- knows how to use a lap belt (as opposed to a latch/isofix base).

2) It is ubiquitous. Every automobile and plane seat has one. So if you're hopping into an Uber, no problem.

3) Lab belts are designed to stretch which is actually really good in a collision. The stretching lowers peak acceleration, and therefore lowers the likelihood of injury.

4) Total system weighs less, which translates into less force in a collision (F=ma).

Many thanks for the thoughtful reply! Coming from Europe here where it’s been on every car for about 20 years so has become very much the norm.

Belt (1) troubles me slightly in that it’s easy but not necessarily intuitive enough for grandma to get it right every time (and indeed many don’t). The base has the great benefit of being definitively installed correctly (all goes green / stops beeping).

The reported numbers on belt errors are pretty terrible: https://www.besafe.com/child-car-seat-misuse-study/

A good dialogue is always fun. Thanks for bringing some science to the thread.

You've hit the nail on the proverbial head regarding misuse. Misuse is a problem across installation types: belt-only, and with Latch/Isofix. Some people get so confused they install with both methods.

Lowering misuse is a top design goal. Stated differently: we want to make things so simple that people have to work hard to make a mistake.

You are absolutely correct that belt misuse is a problem (per the cited GDV study). Latch misuse is still a problem too, though.

The studies make clear that misuse is common across installation types, to various degrees. The studies don't do a great job of exploring why the misuse occurred (The 2005 NHTSA study below did ask some good follow up questions). For example, Why did someone not use the belt path correctly? Was it because the slot was too narrow? Was it not visually obvious? Why did someone install both the Latch/Isofix anchors onto the same mount point? Why did someone leave too much slack in the Latch/Isofix anchor or the seat belt? Etcetera. The reasons why people misuse a seat are very valuable to improved public education and improved product design.

NHTSA's 2005 large field study found 39% of CRS (aka baby car seats) were incorrectly installed with Latch. Many of those had multiple errors (e.g. twisted belt plus latch connector turned upside down). Table 11 has the details in https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/latch_report_12-...

10 years later, NHTSA's 2015 study with NCRUSS data found misuse was still persistent: "Overall misuse is considered as having at least one defined misuse present in the car seat or booster seat – the seat may have one or multiple misuses, where one misuse has the same contribution as multiple misuses. The overall misuse is estimated to be 46 percent with a 95 percent confidence interval ranging from 39 percent to 52 percent. By car seat or booster seat type, estimated misuse rates were 61 percent for forward-facing car seats, 49 percent for rearfacing infant car seats, 44 percent for rear-facing convertible car seats, 24 percent for backless booster seats, and 16 percent for highback booster seats." Source: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...

So for all those parents out there, read your seat's user manual. The user manual will make it clear how to properly and effectively use the seat belt or the Latch/Isofix anchorages.

Isofix is easy in theory but if you don't know exactly where the fixing points are, then it's like fumbling around in the dark. Sometimes it's hard to see the fixing points while trying to get the seat on.

I think that situation is something many parents recognize. Usually when the baby is screaming etc.. wonderful.

Once you've click the base in, it's easy next time though. Yet, my wife still considers fitting the seat as the man's responsibility. :-)

Parent here too, with three different seats (two are rotating, permanently affixed to the base, 0-3yrs, one is a removable base, 0-~1). All of which seem to have little torches on the isofix lugs, and the little one feeling infinitely more stable when using the isofix and leg as opposed to just the base. I will say the permanently affixed ones / bases weigh a tonne. Being able to click in and out was a delight when we were able to use the little seat.

I'm not sure if its a brand thing, but the isofix bolts on my last cars (Volvo, BMW, Audi) were all really well signposted, and in little plastic housings which you couldn't miss, even fumbling around. The ones on my wife's Ford are just sort of hiding behind the cushions, which doesn't seem as elegant.

Toyota Land Cruiser here. They are sort of visible if you have proper lighting or if it's during the day. They hide behind leather flaps so best bet is to feel your way to them.
Ok, I'll bite.

I don't want to expose my child to exotic glues, adhesives, PFAS, or any other foreign molecules in their car seat.

How does your product stack up?

Why are you driving them inside a car that has literally all of these in the first place then?
GP's asking a legitimate question about chemical outgassing etc. Parents have concerns like this, and some parents more than others.

let me go pedantic and teach: "The customer is always right" does not mean that no matter what a customer says, you give them a false smile, and pretend you agree with them.

"The customer is always right" means "you are hearing actual feedback from your target audience; somebody giving attention to your product is experiencing friction and wants information or reassurance, and is taking the time to let you know"

Do you know how valuable that is? Most people exposed to your product (ads, PR, etc.) just move along. Customers who don't like your product generally just disappear.

Free market research should not be ignored. This customer is not only right, but is representative of a whole class of customers that you need to learn to win over.

>>GP's asking a legitimate question about chemical outgassing etc. Parents have concerns like this, and some parents more than others.

Obviously, and outgassing happens a lot in any car especially if it's brand new. So I'll ask again - why drive kids in a car at all if this concerns them this much?

>> why drive kids in a car at all if this concerns them this much?

Because they have to

Genuinely confused what stance you're taking here

>>Genuinely confused what stance you're taking here

That a car is going to expose your child to an order of magnitude more "chemicals" than a baby seat ever could - it's like asking how much sugar is in your coleslaw that you're having on the side of a large five guys milkshake. Probably some, but if you're concerned about sugar you have much bigger things to worry about.

if you are having a large milkshake, I would advise against adding more sugar to your meal. I'm not wrong, I'm giving healthy advice. To follow my advice, you simply need to ask if there is sugar in the other things you order, it's a simple, meaningful question.
Sure. I think you're still missing my point , but you are of course technically correct.
> why drive kids in a car at all if this concerns them this much?

do you want to be right and nyah nyah nyah the guy, or do you want to sell him a carseat that you worked hard on that's safer than any other car seat you know? If your car seat is made of the same materials as every other car seat, or if by chance your car seat is actually safer than other car seats, why wouldn't you want to let them know rather than you telling the guy "you're an idiot for putting your kid in a car!"

all car seats go in cars. Wouldn't it be nice to have a car seat that did not add to the danger?

>>or do you want to sell him a carseat that you worked hard on that's safer than any other car seat you know?

I don't want to sell him anything. Have you confused me with the OP maybe?

I have zero alternative to cars where I live. I do everything possible to minimize my sons exposure to chemicals, which run rampant in our society.

Every single purchase I make, I try to be as informed as possible.

Does this offend you?

Oh it doesn't offend me, I just find asking if a baby seat contains "exotic glues"(wtf is an exotic glue) silly in the context of transporting kids in a car.
>This customer is not only right, but is representative of a whole class of customers that you need to learn to win over.

That's not always true. If a certain subset of customers wants something ridiculous, they can either go elsewhere or learn to adapt. For better or worse, companies often times have the ability to drive public sentiment just as much as they have the responsibility to pander to it. When Apple removed headphone jacks from all their products they did so against a torrent of outrage, but fast forward 5-7 years and they absolutely made the right call. People learned to get over it.

Catering to bordering-on-harmfully-obsessive parents isn't always the best call.

I didn't say cater to every whim of every person.

I said listen to the customer because it is a legitimate point of contact, and they are not going to be the only one thinking what they're thinking, and even if you want to ignore them, you don't want to create a scene in front of other customers, so you can still think about and learn from the experience. The customer is always right from the customer's perspective, and you need to understand your customers' perspectives.

The user you're replying to appears unconnected to Kioma, so I don't think they have any winning-over to do here.
Exotic glues? Foreign molecules?

I wonder. Are you aware that keeping your living space exquisitely clean compromises the development of a childs immune system?

I don't think the human immune system develops against offgassing like it does pathogens
I assume you are worried about off-gassing, and direct ingestion of harmful chemicals.

TLDR: We stack up really well.

1) No flame retardants are used in the upholstery. We worked really hard to meet the flammability requirements with materials that aren't doped in endocrine-disrupting flame retardants. So that was a big win, because that is the largest chemical exposure in legacy car seats (in my opinion) and it is one that the scientific literature is very clear about.

2) The chassis is mostly machined aluminum (powder-coated) and polycarbonate. On the underside of the chassis there are some bracket retention pieces that use a standard cyano-acrylic glue ("super glue").

I'm not in the market for a car seat, but just want to say that I think you've done an awesome job responding, and I'd be looking at your car seat for sure after reading these :)
Thank you! Encouragement is always welcome.
Thank you so much for this response.
You're welcome. Thanks for asking! If you have other questions, please drop me a line at support@kioma.us and mention your HN profile.
Do you use these for your children?
Yes, but my kids have outgrown them. When my son outgrew his seat, he sometimes still used it as a rocking chair to read his books in his room.
The price is insane man. The best of the best car seat according to lots of reviews(Cybex Anoris-T) is "only" £599, your thing is significantly more and I don't see why it's any better.

Edit: sorry, let me rephrase that - not insane, just hard to justify.

I am always entertained by the extra amount people are willing to pay for the tiniest bit of risk reduction (or appearance thereof) for baby and kid related products.

For example, paying an extra $900 for a car seat, but then taking the kid on unnecessary car rides, which are magnitudes riskier than not taking the kid in a car. If you are willing to pay that much for such an immaterial decrease in risk, surely you should avoid taking the kid in a car unless absolutely necessary.

Although, I guess some of it is also showing what you can afford.

And some of it is buying convenience. The peace of mind from knowing you have the safest seat allows risking more rides which frees up impromptu errand scheduling. Whether the math actually works out is orthogonal to the psychological effects.
What counts as an unnecessary car ride for you? If I'm going to the grocery store and there's someone else to watch my toddler, I don't need to take her with me, but I think the bit of stimulation of getting out of the house and seeing a new place, new experience, and new people has a benefit that outweighs the almost inconsequential odds of a major car accident as I drive there and back on roads with a speed limit of 35 MPH.
It's about convenience. Refraining from taking certain car rides to reduce the risk is inconvenient. But for a wealthy customer, there is no difference between buying car seat A or B, but if A is $900 more and slightly safer, it's logical and just as convenient to choose it.
Our risk assessment is as emotional as is logical.

When it comes to driving specifically, my friends will buy a 50k SUV to feel safe, but will then buy cheapest plasticy tires or refuse to join me in advanced safety class.

That being said - kids are vulnerable, fragile, and don't make their own decisions. As a newish parent myself I 100% understand the extra pressure that puts to make the best possible decision for them.

I mean I know people who seem to get in an accident once in a while — sometimes completely their fault — and other people who have driven 20 years everywhere and clearly drive better and react quicker than anyone else I know.

So by all means, someone doing something or not doesn’t mean much.

People can do both, though: drop unnecessary rides and also have the safest seats.
I don’t think kids are even that fragile. In many ways they bounce back from more than adults!
"The baby's okay, they're safely nested in a unibody machined aluminum enclosure. I've been told those are indestructible."
Ya - if I could afford this and didn't, and the kid died - I'd always wonder if the better seat would have saved them. I have a really good seat (this didn't exist), and also (probably equally...or more importantly?) a very highly rated car.

Safety is a great way to sell this product, though the price may limit who buys it.

Thanks, though, for taking a look!

I used to know some of the Cybex people (it was a European company), and they congratulated us on beating their best safety scores at the time. Now Cybex is owned by an Asian conglomerate (Goodbaby).

The Kioma difference in materials quality and performance is both quantifiable and qualitative. We have to charge a price that covers our work in design and production costs. But I completely get it if the Kioma seat is too expensive for your preferences.

As a side note, if you want to be blown away by prices check out the $10,000 cribs (https://nurseryworks.net/collections/cribs/products/gradient...), $1000 bassinets (https://www.happiestbaby.com/), and $5000 strollers (https://silvercrossus.com/category/strollers/).

Thanks for the feedback!

You can tell that guy's not a parent, haha. It's a shitload of money, but at least in this case I know that I'm getting value out of it. It's very easy to piss away a fortune on badly-made Chinese plastic trash in the world of baby accessories.
>>You can tell that guy's not a parent, haha.

I find it really interesting that you reached that conclusion. Me and my wife spent what feels like an absolutely insane amount of money on a car seat, definitely more than any of our friends have spent(the beforementioned Anoris-T, because as far as I can tell it is the best seat you can buy) and the idea of spending $1000 on a car seat just doesn't fit in my head. It's just too much.

>> but at least in this case I know that I'm getting value out of it

Really? how?

Agreed, my only thought on the $1000 price tag was that I already have a seat that is well rated and don’t want to throw away or donate a perfectly good $800 car seat/stroller system.

Like cheap end car seats when we looked were in the 200-400 and nicer ones were in the 600-1200 range.

There are many brands of car seats available at Walmart/Target for ~$100, plus or minus $25.
What’s the value? Lol I’ve used the same $250 one for 3 babies now and 0% of them would have noticed “high end materials”.
Luxury balls, bargain babies.
Just a note that the infant ones have a 5-year lifespan from date of manufacture. Not sure if it’s the nylon straps or the foam mechanical characteristics.

We were gifted a hand me down and I had to cut the straps and bag it.

We ended up handing down the two infant sized ones we got that were the same model.

Also any car seat involved in a collision needs to be disposed of.

I dislike waste but you don’t mess with car seats and helmets.

I am a parent, and in my opinion, spending $1k on a car seat is completely unreasonable. (We bought ours used as part of a package deal with some other used baby stuff. It would have been nowhere near $1k when new.)
What do you think about spending $1k on a phone?

My question is why it's $1000 and not $999.

(comment deleted)
It depends.

The thing about the baby market is that, because it’s driven by emotional decisions, there are buyers at every price point - and it isn’t even directly related to wealth. Some people get into debt trying to make this harsh world safer for their newborn, even though safety benefits taper off as the price increases.

For me, I picked the lower bound and my wife picked the upper bound on the price range we were looking at. She is frugal above all else, I am safety conscious above all else. We met in the middle and found one that suited.

It required some negotiation to begin with though, because her upper bound was lower than my lower bound - and was firmly in the “dodgy unbranded wholesale, sold on a website with an invalid SSL certificate, claiming to be UK based but registered to a Chinese address” territory.

When buying used car seats, remember to check the "use before" date that is marked on it. They only claim to achieve the designed strength/protection for a number of years. At least in Europe.
What is that based on other than them wanting to sell more seats? I'd imagine the materials don't erode, otherwise how safe can it even be in the first place?
Nothing. It's a marketing gimmick to depress the used market. The only way they "expire" is if the regulations change, which does not happen often.
I thought that was an American thing since I couldn't find it on our car seat
So ours has a manufacture date and I know people look at it and if it's older than 3-4 years they won't buy it off you, but as far as I can see that advice isn't anywhere in the manual of the seat. Maybe some seats "expire" in some way, but it sounds like an urban myth.
As a parent - the only way I’d buy this is if I knew I could resell it later and it’d hold its value.

What is the “expiration date” on your seat?

(comment deleted)
Is there a standard safety test for this stuff? When I did some research a couple of years ago (my daughter is 1.5 years old now) I found some test by an european institution that had the Axkid One+ on top, so I bought that one.
The US standard is FMVSS 213. In Europe, seat manufacturers currently must comply with standards UN R44/04 or UN R129 (i-Size).
I have no experience whatsoever with baby carseats.

But I get so frustrated with garbage on the market, and the struggle to find decent quality goods. I've created my own where they don't exist (eg. current limiter for plugging in laptop power brick on a plane, untrasonic eyeglass cleaner and dryer, tongue-activated mouse button) which is hugely labour intensive. If I need your thing, your thing is as good as you say, and you can sell it to me for less than that costs me in time, materials and lost opportunity, then for me the math is simple.

"Mom tested" might not be the best thing to say if you want moms to buy your product
Someone further down the thread had a similar negative response to that phrase and suggested maybe "parent tested" as a substitute? Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah, "parent tested" is good.
The strap is a single point of failure. Each mount should be attached to the seat brackets individually. Those brackets need to be braced and not just bolted through plywood.

Having patents on innovations is necessary, but if you have innovations that will save kids lives, you should find a way to make those broadly usable by all.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US10967762B2/en?oq=1096776...

This this TOS usual for a piece of regulated safety equipment?

Terms of service The legalese.

The KIOMA Car Seat is provided “as-is, where-is,” without representations, conditions or warranties of any kind, whether express or implied, including, but not limited to, warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. The recipient or buyer is solely responsible for determining the appropriateness of using the KIOMA Car Seat.

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Don’t think that’s fair - unless they’re selling them out of a boat in international waters to avoid regulation
Not sure what you are referring to about a strap being a single point of failure.

Patents > We don't work for free, and we can't buy groceries by giving away years of R&D. Companies are welcome to license our safety innovations, and they know how to reach us. The invitation to do so is on our website.

TOS > Kioma seats come with an industry standard 1 year warranty. The website TOS are different than the product warranty that comes with each seat. Thanks for the heads up though. I'll have the marketing team clarify that.

“We don’t give years of R&D away for free” is a pretty flippant response. You make money selling car seats, and if another company can produce better seats at a lower price then consumers win and lives are saved. Which is ostensibly exactly what you want to happen? Otherwise why even be in the car seat business?
Cmon be nice to the car seat people :). Let’s say it cost $10 to develop this groundbreaking car seat technology, and $1 to make a car seat, so the company charges $1.50 to make up their investment in 20 sales. If they gave away their patent, then another company (who didn’t have to pay that initial cost) could sell the same seats for $1.

This is episode 1000 in our favorite series: why and how capitalism strangles innovation

The flip side is that R&D is a lot easier and cheaper when you don’t have to worry about accidental infringement. But your last paragraph suggests we’re already in agreement.

In any case, I’m fine with companies making the pragmatic choice to pursue patent protection. But being defensive and flippant about it isn’t a good look. It’s much better to argue for instance that you put yourself at a disadvantage if you’re the only business that doesn’t patent their innovations, and that a patent portfolio also has a defensive function.

I mean, you could just be more flippant in response and suggest that the best car seat is the one without a car in the first place
> The flip side is that R&D is a lot easier and cheaper when you don’t have to worry about accidental infringement.

Not when you're a hardware company. You typically rely on external vendors and long feedback loops between iterations for development and have to pay people along the way and in-between. Your remark that someones is morally obligated to give their innovation away before R&D costs are paid for, or really at all outside of a licensing model, is so far left field it might have a seat with the cars.

Thank you for the support. You have eloquently explained the innovation conundrum.
That’s a pretty naive way to look at it. A lot of patented products have a positive impact on the world, should all of these be shared?

What if a small player tries to break into a market with a nee solution? They should give away their IP to the big player purely because it has a positive impact on the world?

Just because their product is more safe doesn’t mean they automatically have to share this with everyone. They put time and a lot of effort into this, and that should be rewarded. The world rewards people with money. Sure some people might be happy with knowing they saved more lives, but eventually most people just want to be rewarded.

> A lot of patented products have a positive impact on the world, should all of these be shared?

Yes. It’s bad to criminalize innovation. Most patentable innovations are not so unique but only a logical next step given prior inventions.

Also, patents favor the big players in any market because they have the money and the will to grind down any newcomers with legal action. The upstart with fewer resources should always be in favor of a level playing field.

If it was obvious, why didn’t some big company already do it?
Likewise, the big players in any field spend vast resources on R&D to produce the better products, and the patent is the only thing that makes that sustainable.

It’s all well and good wanting the world to be a safer place, but every company is beholden to its shareholders and debtors. Resources spent must be recovered or it all falls down.

Strange how all those smaller companies filing patents are so idiotic to work against their own interests. Somebody should tell them.
You underestimate the revolutionary role of patents in allowing to innovate in the open.

Do you want to know what is the active substance of a new medicine? Do you want other researchers to know it and critique it, and build upon it? And for FDA to have easy time learning everything about the medicine? Allow the medicine to be patented.

Otherwise every other factory would start producing it, having not paid anything for years of R&D. Nobody would be able to secure a loan or investment for said R&D, and especially stuff like clinical trials.

The alternative is trade secrets, quakery, and loss of knowledge forever if a particular project fails.

Patents have their downsides. The fee structure could be different (progressive with time), the duration can be discussed, some areas should rather not be patentable (large families of substances, or software), but the idea is pretty sound and important.

>if you have innovations that will save kids lives, you should find a way to make those broadly usable by all...provided “as-is, where-is,” without representations, conditions or warranties of any kind

no, individuals should play by the sames rules of the collective as everybody else.

There is nothing wrong with you advocating and/or successfully changing the rules of the patent system so all players must behave this way, but trying to shame a small entrepreneur into being boy scout is ihmo bad for all of us. I bristle at all the moralizing people do on the daily.

I'm advocating for "think globally, act locally", just without puritanism or maoism.

> The strap is a single point of failure. Each mount should be attached to the seat brackets individually.

That's not how our Recaro seat works, nor our original baby seat, nor the booster for our older son. Each of them attaches to the seat anchors using a single strap with clips on either end, one on a length adjuster.

This design looks pretty much the same; the plywood is just protection for the car upholstery, and doesn't act as a load-bearing element.

I wonder if there would be a market for in-built hard modular mount points for the back seats. Like, let's say I'm Tesla. I build in mount points for the back seats. And then I sell accessories for the mounts. Tesla branded baby seats. Child seats. Storage/shelf solutions. Dog cages. Pizza delivery rack. Who even knows how many things one could put back there
Like isofix? I think even Teslas have that. Or do I misunderstand?
Your Tesla manual may call it Latch (the US version of EU's Isofix). Same thing but different name.
Adding to the list of “same thing - different name”: in Canada it’s known as UAS (universal anchorage system)
if you have innovations that will save kids lives, you should find a way to make those broadly usable by all.

One way would be for you to buy or license the tech and give it away. Is that something you're considering?

We're happy to license out tech.
Any seat belt in an automobile is a single point of failure by your logic. Seat belts are fantastic tech, though. Seat belt webbing is designed to take 11,120 Newtons (FMVSS 209). Textile science is pretty cool.
It looks just like a regular one. When the special features are plastic and foam that doesn't scream high quality to me.

Why not make one that's solid steel and can tank a direct hit from a bus? You could make some really funny advertisements with crash test dummies.

I like your sense of humor. The engineers used to jokingly call this the "Orphanator -- the seat so safe only the kids survive the crash." Our marketing people told us to leave the ideas to them....

In a collision, rigidity is actually the enemy. A well designed seat should never be reusable after a crash because all the materials yielded to dump energy. It is better to have energy diverted into stretching, bending, and breaking materials than have it channeled into a baby's body.

We don't use steel (except for one rod), but we do use a lot of 5000 series machined aluminum which is powder-coated. Aluminum is preferable because it is better for creating crumple zones where the materials yield. The other primary material we use is polycarbonate because it has fantastic impact resistance (polycarbonate is used in "bullet-proof glass"). I'll let the marketing team know their materials description failed to impress you :)

Will you sell in Europe and does tha car base have an isofix mounting?
1. Yes, it has an Isofix mounting which in the US is called "Latch".

2. We cannot currently sell directly into Europe, though we'd love to at some point. If you're a distributor please drop me a line!

There's zero videos on your website, and zero videos of it on youtube. As someone in the market for this that's the first thing I checked. Get some videos up on Tiktok as well!
I'll add it to the marketing team's todo list. Thanks for the heads up!
Just gonna throw this out there - your pitch is awesome, and “mom tested” put me off. Maybe I’m just a Californian but “parent tested” is a bit more 2023
Great feedback. Thank you! I'll pass it on to the marketing team.
One big problem with all car seats is that after 3-4 you have to dump an expensive and still usable seat. And I mean dump, since they cannot be donated AFAIK. It would be great if the seat can be disassembled to be used for another purpose.
<sarcasm> Think of the dollar cost amortization! You need to have more children to average down the cost. So you can use the car seat across 3-4 kids. </sarcasm>

In all seriousness, the problem with donations is people are afraid of attached liability. It is a shame, because car seats can often be used for several years across multiple children. If you keep it in the family and use it across your own kids, everyone is cool with it. As soon as you donate it to someone else, people worry about liability.

I know it isn't much solace, but we try to minimize use of non-recyclable material. The 5 pounds of aluminum in a Kioma car seat is recyclable and will net about $4.00 at current Al spot rates. So you could disassemble it.

There's probably a business model around refurbishing the "core" of the car seat. Take it back, run it through a CMM to make sure it's not been in any again impacts, then resell as a refurb or 2nd life unit with new padding and absorb the liability. A $600-$700 upcycled unit would be appealing. Or offer re-certification as a service. CSaaS
I know it’s easy to be critical, but I want to provide feedback. That placement into the base looks difficult and frustrating.

I see two main issues.

1. That clearly requires the installer to apply non-trivial force to lock it into place. Beyond it being awkward, a Graco Keyfit is a drop in, no force install. Amazing.

2. In most vehicles, fire-aft distance is a huge, limiting factor. It seems difficult, if not impossible to tell if the seat has latched into the correct position, without additional tilt. The Keyfit base makes this obvious since it will not latch into place at incorrect angles.

Feedback is always welcome. Thanks for checking it out! I may botch the response to your points, but I'll give it a try below.

Force > To use the base, yes some force is required. In our opinion, you want force to prevent false-positives on latching. False positives are a big problem with bases, as people perceive latching to have occurred when it actually has not. Visual latching indictors are not sufficient, in my opinion. Our experience and design encourages audio, visual, and tactile feedback to minimize misunderstandings and false positives.

Please note that while a base is convenient (people like the quick click-in, click-out of bases) it is not needed. You can just use the seat belt. Roll with whatever you prefer. Personally, I just use the seat belt.

Fire-aft> I have no idea what you mean by "fire-aft distance". But it sounds like you are worried about angles. We designed the seat to encourage good angles at rest, whether with the lap belt alone or with the companion base. Most automotive seats have a 5-10 degree upward angle. A rear-facing infant car seat should be resting in place at no lower than a 30 degree angle, and no higher than a 45 degree angle. If you go too high it increases choking risk but conversely improves the crash test scores. If you go lower it is better for a baby at rest and has less choking risk, but worsens the crash test score as more force is distributed into a smaller area and less rotation of the seat is possible. All this to say, there is a lot of variability across vehicles and seats in a vehicle, and to the best of my knowledge no car seat base accounts for all the permutations well. Regardless, angles are important because babies (especially younger ones) are still developing the muscles that hold up their head and have less head control than it might appear. For the parents out there, the final back angle should be approximately between 30 and 45 degrees as measured from a level plane, but please refer to your seat's user manual for its instructions. In most scenarios and vehicles the Kioma car seat should rest at an approximate 40 degree angle.

Competitor Comparison > We try to avoid direct comparisons with other companies, because it makes the lawyers wince. However, while I'm biased, from my personal experience I can say I'd take the Kioma any day over the competitors. There are many reasons we built this product, and none of them included "existing [insert company name] does a great job at this!"

> "fire-aft distance"

Sorry, darn auto-correct on my phone.

"Fore-aft" distance is what I meant. Essentially, the distance from the back of the child's seat to the driver's seat. In nearly all vehicles we own (including mid-sized SUVs), it's a close fit to install a baby carrier. In some cases, the front seats will be pressing against the carrier (unavoidable in some cases). With a full base, it's very obvious when the carrier is being pushed up too far by the contact and we need to adjust.

Ah, ok, and thanks for clarifying. The Kioma base is low profile (vertical height), and only 1/2 inch out from the passenger seat upright face (your "fore-aft" distance). It does not extend out past the seating face of the passenger seat, or otherwise hang off the passenger seat. Low and slim generally results in a shorter moment arm from the anchorage point (where the latch/isofix mount points are), so reduces the collision forces for the seat/baby.

The Kioma seat is about a standard length, and the width is narrower than competing seats while fitting the same size baby.

Fun fact: the International Standards Organization (ISO) helpfully defined several envelope sizes (r1, r2, etc) to help with baby car seat standardization, and the EU crash regs (see UN r129) even have a test bar that represents the back of a driver's seat.

Looks nice. Is it foldable so that we can carry it on trips abroad?
I've read the whole thread , I've looked at your product.

It looks good , the materials seem fine , but have nobody heard about ISOFix? At least in europe is standard in new cars.

The last baby seat that I used , manufactured by MassiCossi , had a better base than yours, with an adjustable aluminium leg and ISOFix links that kept it sturdly attached to the seat frame.

It was not cheap too, around 500 euro I think.

It was also removable with the press of a button , from the base and from the trolley

Edit: I missed a comment referencing it, then it seems strange to me that a seat sold as somewhat of a luxury item doesn'support that

Glad to hear you found the thread interesting.

Kioma does provide an Isofix detachable base, but in the U.S. it is called Latch. Same thing, different name. All U.S. infant child restraint systems (CRS) must either have Latch attachments permanently to the CRS or must provide a separate detachable Latch base.

So we do provide a Latch base. We don't do a base load-leg though, because there are some cool things done with rotation to dissipate energy :) This is one case where the EU regs specified an implementation rather than a result. Otherwise the EU (r129) regs are very well written.

Loads of hardware startups, but the communities are not in the Bay, Seattle or NYC.

Most of the activity is not being generated by Americans or in America. Lots are being started in India, Dubai and China. Even the ones based out of the US or Singapore spend most of their time in Shenzen.

In the US, I routinely see robotics and Healthcare hardware startups in Boston or San Diego, pseudo attached to the local university. No surprise that irobot and Boston dynamics are based out of Boston.

I think there is a huge hardware startup ecosystem in the bay, I'm part of it. Especially for certain hardware specialties like medical,semiconductor, defence, space, etc.
Another consideration is that a lot of hardware startups focus on industrial applications with customers that don't operate out of tech hubs.

There are tons of small companies making hardware for oil & gas applications, but you'll mostly find them in areas where their customers are located (e.g. Texas, Alberta) and/or LCOL cities where you can find cheap real estate. This also applies to other industries like agriculture and automotive.

These aren't "sexy" companies so you don't hear much about them, but I'd wager that if you add them up, they'd outnumber the number of hardware startups in NYC and the Bay Area.

Where do you find these companies? I imagine crunchbase isn’t the best spot
Unfortunately I don't think there's a good way to find these companies unless you happen to live near them or work in the industry they sell to.

In my experience, they normally get started and funded by local people in their industry and they sell back to local customers (at least initially) from their network, so there's very little in the way of advertising, especially at a national level. Also, they often hire from their network for early positions and local colleges/universities as they grow, so you might not even see them on job boards.

If you're looking for companies that are a bit more established, you could try industry trade shows.

> Even the ones based out of the US or Singapore spend most of their time in Shenzen

Agree. Lived in SG for 14 years, worked for hardware startups for 8 of those. There really isn't much going on HW wise.

My experience has been that if you work with the government on a project, as if by magic, ST Engineering comes up with a competing product within 1-2 years.

https://darkhive.ai small uncrewed aerial systems for public safety. Other companies still dominate the market and for good reason. We aim to bring US-made equipment that is competitive and affordable.
This is very cool! Is the intent that it'll have a bunch of modular stuff so law enforcement can equip it to do different tasks (e.g., different cameras or sensors)? Not sure if you ever saw the Axon (Taser) announcement that was quickly halted but they pitched doing something like this for schools with a taser attached. A bit dystopian but maybe useful given the awful number of school shootings and poor response times as evidenced by Uvalde
The smaller unit we are building will have some different payload configs. We aren’t going for glass breakers and such based on feedback and what is most popular on the market (DJI). We want these to help mitigate the dangerous environments in public safety and be disposable. Like a frisbee. Shoot me an email! Happy to chat more.
Let me know if you need someone to test in a high heat environment and give you product feedback.

I am on the UAS committee for a large city (1.6m+ people with 13k+ employees) and its amazing how many us-based companies don't take into account how hot it can be in the desert. I recently saw a vendor who needed to redesign/change their batteries and motors because of it.

As some unsolicited advice, if you aren't working to get on the DIU Blue list [1], I highly recommend it. Many if not most public safety agencies are using that to make purchasing decisions.

I have been sounding the alarm on how DJI is likely going to get banned at some point with all the trade shenanigans going on, but many of the US based companies just aren't as operator friendly.

[1] - https://www.diu.mil/blue-uas

Thanks for the support! We would love to come out and test. Shoot me an email in my profile and let’s stay in touch. Happy to share more.
Thalo Labs a New York City-based company focused on accelerating our path to a net-negative carbon society. We develop systems (hardware+software) that make it easy to measure and capture GHG emissions at the scale of the built environment. We are driven to provide practical solutions to emissions now and scale with the future of the green grid.

See current open roles here: https://jobs.lever.co/thalolabs

I work in this space. Medical devices mostly, surgical robotics, active implantable devices (LVADS, artificial hearts), dialysis, monitoring and testing and also orthopedic stuff like bone taps, drills, screws and surgical navigation. I have a portfolio website at www.iancollmceachern.com
I come from a traditional full-stack engineering background (web frontend + backend) and recently founded a smart toy company[1], the first product built on ESP32-S3. I took a few weeks for me to get comfortable writing firmware (although there is another more experienced engineer doing the primary work and electrical).

I'm really excited for Espressif (the chip maker) to roll out newer versions of their microcontrollers on RISC-V. I would love to see a renaissance of inexpensive personal devices.

[1]: We're pre-launch so nothing to share now.

I have a similar background as you. How are you finding handling the mechanical side of things? I assume your toy is more than a PCB.
There are no motors, so more simple. There are mics, speakers, LEDs, LCDs, buttons, etc. I have a firmware engineer who also does electrical engineering, and a mechanical engineer who works with manufacturing, compliance, and industrial design.
Gotcha. You have a team of people helping out. Sounds super fun!
At Sense we make a home energy monitor that provides real-time appliance-level monitoring using machine learning. Hardware is indeed hard as everyone said it would be!

https://sense.com

This seems exactly like neurio, but Generac seems to have shuttered that product.
That seems.... really expensive?

$165 will get you an emporia with 16 sensors so you don't need any AI trying to decipher your usage, compared to $300 for yours that only gives you sensors for your main feed.

Considering it's trivial to find schematics online showing how to wire a clamp current meter into an esp32, what have you found to be difficult about the hardware? I would expect the AI detection of individual appliances would be the hard part.

Glad to see Sense here! Been using it for 3+ years and am surprised how good it detects electrical appliances and other typical stuff.

Do you have any plans regarding always on load? So hard to track it down…