Huh, I had thought the "brogrammer" thing was a parody, not a serious self-description. I usually run across variants of the descriptor "bro-ish" as derogatory, not something people actually want to call themselves; for example, "brostep" is a derogatory term for a subgenre of dubstep that dubstep purists don't like, not something people proudly call their own music. But I'm admittedly totally out of this particular loop.
I totally agree with this. I thought it was a joke. I didn't think frat guys were actually learning to code and calling themselves programmers or something...
The point of this blog post is basically that it doesn't matter if you program or what, if you're a douche, you are a douche.
I thought so too, but the word I hear from people I know at Facebook (where the term originated) indicate that the people who started this are pretty dead serious about the concept.
Thankfully I work with no brogrammers - this might actually start being a hiring disadvantage if companies are known to be brogrammer-heavy.
It's a very useful indicator that the company is looking to hire barely-sentient PHP monkeys rather than actual programmers to solve interesting problems.
I've never heard that about Facebook, only the opposite: they hire awesome programmers, and then teach them PHP. Certainly, any Facebook developers I've met (online or in real life) have been pretty awesome, though my sample size is in the single digits.
Interesting. I wasn't referring specifically to Facebook, btw, and I've never seen Facebook mention "brogrammers" in their job postings.
Do they self-identify as "brogrammers?" If so, did they do so before joining Facebook or only after the fact?
The self-described bro in the linked article appears to only "program" in PHP according to his own website, so I think my assumption that he's just a monkey is fair.
Now that I think of it, there was actually a YC company's recruiting post on HN that used it (not entirely clear how seriously), which created a bit of a backlash: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3168038
I think it's probably not a good recruiting strategy, because it telegraphs both that this might be a problematic opening for women, and that anyone worried they'll be deemed too egghead/nerdy might want to pass. Even if you don't care about sexism (which you should), a job ad that implies that nerdy programmers may not be welcome really restricts the size of the candidate pool. On the other hand, if that's the company culture, maybe it's better to know ahead of time...
a job ad that implies that nerdy programmers may not be welcome really restricts the size of the candidate pool.
that's what I find funny about the whole thing. "we're hiring programmers! no nerds." that's an unlikely strategy for success even when programmers are easy to hire -- which they are currently not.
I think a lot of people are repulsed by the idea of spending a career surrounded by the "programmer" stereotype (i.e. monomaniacal, male, introverts). Part of me wonders whether advertising a more traditionally social work environment might not attract a lot of talent that doesn't fit the "programmer" mold (including women!).
I'm not sure a frat-ish vibe is the best way to accomplish that, though. In particular, I don't think cultural geekness is the problem; women are fairly well represented in cultural geekdom outside of programming, especially in recent years. For example, most sci-fi/fantasy fanfic authors are female, and gender balances at general-geekness conventions (e.g. Comic Con) is closer to even than it is at specifically tech events.
And would that be a problem? Not that we need a method to spot bad recruiters, but for those who still think that it makes sense to evaluate quality, what you describe could be a good method to identify the most degenerate ones.
There's been a few posts on here and reddit about brogrammers at facebook and zynga that were completely serious. If I recall correctly there was a recruitment post here not that long ago where the entire post was about looking for "brogrammers" and based on the comments of the poster he was 100% completely serious even with the negative feedback from the other posters.
brogrammer, n.: A programmer who breaks the usual expectations of quiet nerdiness and opts instead for the usual trappings of a frat-boy: popped collars, bad beer, and calling everybody "bro". Despised by everyone, especially other programmers.
Ex: Oh my god, John is talking about football and chicks again. That guy is such a brogrammer.
See also: programmer, frat boy, bro, douchebag, developer
This is not a good stereotype to conjure up, even in some ironic-parody-hipster sense.
It isn't a joke, either; I've definitely seen programmers where I've worked who really do act like that -- and they are like toxin for introverted programmers. Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro" constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical topics or hobbies.
Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro" constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical topics or hobbies.
Definitely. I can hardly imagine anything more off-putting. Alas, I have seen that kind of crude bragging in Hacker News comments every once in a while. The Hacker News readership skews young, so many of the participants here are still trying to establish long-term relationships. As someone who is approaching thirty years of marriage, I no longer have the preoccupation of finding the next girl--and I really never did, as I was looking for the ONE girl I could count on to be a good wife for a lifetime and a good mother for any children we happened to have. It has not escaped my notice that many Hacker News participants are still looking for ways to build a deep relationship with someone. I don't think bragging up one-night stands provides answers for the many readers here who have questions about that.
My predecessor at the current job fits the description - he was renowned for his sexist remarks and attitude. Don't know if he regards himself a "brogrammer".
Turns out a guy who doesn't give a shit what people think of his personality also doesn't give a shit about his code...
I would apply the term "brogrammer" to him in a strictly pejorative sense.
I am somewhat relieved that they have managed to create a new word to describe only a subset of programmers -- I would be ashamed and no longer proud to call myself a programmer if this becomes widespread...
Part of it can come from who you've grown up around. To draw from my own experience, I think I've had one technically inclined IRL friend ever. Everyone else has been a non-developer/designer, non-programmer, or barely computer literate. What happened to me was at age 10 we got a computer and I've been absolutely obsessed with creation ever since.
This led to mannerisms, interests, and an external appearance adapted from my peers, but also to a quiet (though dominant) side of me that spends 20 of 24 hours each day pounding away at my keyboard. If I ever came across another programmer in the wild I'm not sure how I would be received.
It's weird to not fit in anywhere. But these guys just sound like douchebags.
Truth be told this 'us vs. them' is a relic of the Revenge of the Nerds days. Saying things like "no you're a bro you can't be one of us" or yelling "neeerrrrrrds" is exactly the same thing. As time wears on, the techs will seem to get less awkward and the bros will seems to get less "bro-y." It's the convergence that occurs once the social stigma of the 80s has worn off.
It should be noted though that tech conversation and "testosterversation" are really difficult to mix. If you're in one mode you don't want to keep switching back to the other.
This is nothing new, back in ~2004 when I was at university for CS there were plenty of students who were desperate to shed the "nerdy" image and would compensate taking up macho hobbies like bodybuilding , playing metal music, martial arts or motorcycling or by drinking large amounts and getting high every weekend.
The whole brogrammer meme reminds me a lot of DHH. Whenever you see him speak he is always dressed and groomed well and fashionably , likes to swear a lot and has a keen interest in fast cars.
It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.
Is there really a problem with nerds being groomed well and fashionably dressed? The people they describe are off-putting because of their attitude, not because their appearance clashes with the archetypal image of a nerd.
What's common with all those behaviors he described is that the way they are usually carried, and the predictable "maleness" with which they are chosen, create an air of trying way too hard -- this is something I defintely experience when meeting many programmers. The irony is that the most defining characteristic of authentic masculinity, for most women I know, is the sense that a man believes in hemself and does what feels right for him. Taking up a bunch of stereotypically male activities for the sake of appearing more male is exactly the opposite of that. It's as if the new practitioner looked around and saw what "successful" guys are doing -- dressing well and riding motorcycles -- and decided to copy the outward appearances without understanding why those patterns exist.
Yes, it's basically trying cargo cult "coolness" , of course that isn't a 100% bad thing if it helps encourage people to get out and try something new.
If you take up a hobby just to appear cool then there's every chance you won't stick with it very long.
I'm sure there are many people who have taken up certain hobbies just to impress people and then found them legitimately enjoyable and fulfilling and they would continue to do them even if they became the most uncool thing.
Also since nerds have a tendency to hyper-focus on things in depth they will likely bring their nerd skills to something non nerdy and outdo the non nerds at it.
So why would two factors common to both femininity and masculinity be something that women focus on to represent true masculinity. It doesn't make any sense.
This is nothing more than the propagation of an unidea that people tolerate because it doesn't make any value judgements about either gender, or something.
Fake it till you make it. That is pretty much the advice given to people in unfamiliar social situations. It doesn't work in technical areas (where it is rightfully laughed at as cargo cult coding) but it does work in social situations.
That's sort of my point.
The original nerdy stereotype is somebody with big teeth , a comb-over and a checked shirt tucked into corduroy pants, possibly also a neck beard.
The next generation of nerds distanced themselves from this somewhat by wearing heavy metal T shirts, having long hair and tattoos.
This became uncool too, so now we have the "brogrammer" with designer polo shirts and dark glasses.
It's interesting because nerds are regarded as "uncool" but I find it is quite often they are culturally ahead of the curve.
The difference is that heavy metal was never "cool", metalheads were always misfits just like nerds. OK, maybe with the exception of hair metal, but we don't talk about that.
We already have that: People who don't declare good variable names, people who don't follow DRY, creating spaghetti code. That's like the punk of programming.
Funny enough, almost every programmer I've ever met that I would identify as "punk" was seriously into coding craftsmanship. Nothing punk about their code.
Is it possible that they weren't trying to shed anything, nor were their interests "compensating"? CS had become one of the most lucrative careers, naturally drawing in a lot of people outside of the traditional (e.g. I entered this field because I loved doing this as a kid, and have loved it since. Many of my peers did their very first line of code in university).
I'm not justifying the "brogrammer" nonsense, but just arguing that it's a field that does more closely represent all parts of demographics, shedding its traditional nerdly people-like-me basis.
It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.
Care to elaborate? You say it like it's obvious to everyone that being into those manuals is a heinous crime, or at least prima facie evidence of humongous douchebagdom in a person.
This isn't high school; there's nothing productive or rational about assigning labels to yourself or others. Judge someone by the quality of their work and the output of their lives, not how they dress or the culture they associate themselves with.
This sounds nice and everything, but actually, there's a lot that's productive and rational about assigning labels to yourself and others. If you needed to carefully evaluate the sum of every participant's life before every interaction (rather than caching the result of that evaluation in a set of labels), you would be paralyzed. Humans simply don't have the mental capacity to constantly think that deeply about everything. If you tell yourself you don't ever assign labels, at least in your head, you're either deceiving yourself or you're a Buddha.
Which conversely means that as long a "brogrammer" isn't negatively effecting the working environment, then you should judge him solely on his work too.
Why are people so angry? It seems like these guys are mostly just acting silly. I don't think it's particularly interesting or funny or whatever, but that's no reason to be mad at them.
I'd be very sad if that loud minority made it so that non-technical people associate "programmer" with the image of a drunk frat boy.
That's not going to happen, of course, but I think people judge that this sort of guys give a bad image of the programmers, as a community.
I don't think that these guys will be what give programmers a bad image. If anything, it's the fact that we're completely unwelcoming to anybody who doesn't fit the nerd stereotype in some way. The only exceptions is our openness to all women, and the article's main point was that he doesn't like these guys because they potentially scare off women. Women aren't all delicate little flowers that cry whenever a "brogrammer" is around. Hell, loads of women like these guys, just like loads of guys like "sexy" women who act cold and distant.
Most of those "drunk frat boys" someday grow up and get jobs somewhere. They're always the rare guy that everybody at their workplace hates, so I don't think anybody will ever legitimately associate programmers with party dudes. If anything, we're all lumped together as smug assholes who love to complain about other men's lifestyles.
I don't really care what someone does in their free time. If they can code well and they don't get in the way of my job, then they're fine. If their idea of a good weekend is going to a party with naked women, then I don't care. Claiming they're sexist is putting women on a pedestal, because some women chose to go to a party to meet such guys, and they're going to go back to their workplace and brag about the hot guys they saw at the party.
I'm not even a "brogrammer" by any means, but I hate how much male programmers go out of their way to claim to be morally superior.
That is always the problem with excluding a certain type of person you lose the ability to claim a higher morale ground.
The tech world is a meritocracy. If 'brogrammers' can live up to the standards then why shouldn't companies hire them? The question is will they make tons of sexist comments at work and make people uncomfortable? You have to hire a few and find out.
Like the article says, it's really off putting to women programmers. I would never consider applying for a job at a company that was proud of its 'brogramming' culture. We don't need more sexist workplaces.
There has always been a problem in STEM jobs where people try to use social manipulation rather than technical achievement to get ahead. With brogrammer, people are trying to convince employers to exclude certain classes of employees such as women or non-social people. Then it becomes a race to the bottom of who fits the stereotype the best rather than rhe most qualified, and technical people end up taking orders from popped-collar types with no technical skills. This is not a joke, and there is a very real reason people are doing this.
I think you've got it backwards. There is definitely a degree of pride associated with being nerdy and non-social to the exclusion of "brogrammers".
Try getting a technical job as with a popped collar. Even if you are technically very proficient, there is stigma and distrust from people like the author of the article
Of course there is distrust, and it is unlikely that hiring based on social behavior is going to make a successful company. I'm merely pointing out that some misguided people are trying to change the business environment to their advantage. I didn't say they are or will be successful. If we describe the status quo, it will be the same as it always been, engineering requires strong, real skills for success. Companies that have unskilled management or people who "bro'd" their way into a high level position are going to have a hard time finding success, but we have to acknowledge there are real companies out there that are taking brogramming seriously.
It's hardly irrational to distrust someone clueless enough to go into a job interview with a popped collar. This isn't really limited to the tech world.
The main issue i have with this brogrammer thing is that it's completely idiotic (and just that would be agood reason to be mad at them). It being off putting for women is of secondary importance, imho. It's also quite sad that they allowed that their names (and of their workplace) were published and linked with this kind of statements, c'mon...
Try "Rockstar Cobol Hacker"; if the recruiters are paying attention, they'll either be unable to find anything that meets the intersection of those sets or they'll have something so interesting it'll be fun to read about even if you don't go with it.
Of course, there's nothing you can do about meat-zombies spamming crap to everyone.
Pretty sure the entire brogrammer meme was meant tongue-in-cheek, and humor aimed directly at developers. Besides, anyone who might actually carry on in brogrammer style would soon learn the acronym CLM -- career limiting maneuver.
I completely agree. It's pretty obviously counterpoint to the usual image of the programmer as nerd. I could see taking it seriously if the OP had said "I met some of these guys and they're as douchey as the article makes them seem" but this completely reeks of recursive trolling. The whole "brogrammer" thing is just a troll at people who think programmers can't have lives, that trolling successfully duped some mainstream media ppl (who probably think "Hacker News" is about the latest on who broke into what and stole passwords from which company), they reported the trolling as fact, and now HN is full of people picking sides.
Notice also how there's like no "brogrammers" in here giving us their side of the story? Almost as if they don't really exist? Or if they do, it's not a life or death to them, like it appears to be to the OP?
Funny to me because I wrote a rant about how Rails was no longer fashionable and Node is more fashionable these days. A few people dissed me for paying attention to tech fashion in the first place, but now HN is all up in arms, ready to break out the pitchforks and torches, over whether or not you wear a polo shirt.
I think it was just a way of categorizing the non gaming non- awkward subculture of programmers. I played sports most of my life and i dont play rpg or any game other than sport games with friends. i would say i was the typical developer. Its just a way of identifying men than aren't a typical programmer i would think that women would welcome the change in a very stagnant geeky comp sci culture.
I think it was just a way of categorizing the non gaming non- awkward subculture of programmers. I played sports most of my life and i dont play rpg or any game other than sport games with friends. i would say i was the typical developer. Its just a way of identifying men than aren't a typical programmer i would think that women would welcome the change in a very stagnant geeky comp sci culture.
One thing I've always liked about programming is the technical culture of getting things done. What offends me about this 'brogrammer' idea is that it tries to turn programming into yet another fashion.
"We're the cool programmers" is particularly offensive because it alienates people who have been doing work in this area for some time.
I can understand wanting to refine your image but do it without slapping labels on something that belongs to many people, not just you.
But most Real programmers don't understand Haskell either. Every time someone succeeds in understanding Haskell, an alarm rings by SPJ's bed, signaling him to publish another semantic and type-system extension to GHC.
"There's a rising group of developers who are much more sociable and like to go out and have fun, and I think brogramming speaks to that audience," said Gagan Biyani,
First, let's be clear that the term "brogrammer", tongue-in-cheek or not, is downright misogynistic.
But equally problematic are the common beliefs that spawned the term in the first place; that programmers must always be obsessed with technology above all else, and to appreciate things like sports, fashion, or fast cars is somehow "bad" or "uncommon" for programmers.
There are a whole host of programmers who despise guys like DHH for enjoying fashion and cars. They seem to believe that somehow, those traits detract from his skill or significance as a programmer. That Rails is a "bad" or "fashionable" framework because of those things and is thus to be avoided. This kind of thinking is just plain ridiculous.
The spectrum on programming ranges from a hobby, to a career, even to the lengths of an obsession. But no one should be expected to act like the "norm". A programmer that cares more about the latest Ferrari than the latest web framework is not necessarily an undesirable programmer. They're just a programmer with different interests, and no one should be treating them differently because of that.
We must realize that Ed Hardy under button up shirts two sizes too large is considered fashionable by some people. I've never met them, but I'm sure they exist.
I've never met anyone who refers to himself as a brogrammer. Pretty much all I know about the term is what I get from it's construction and this article.
I take strong issue with the idea that celebrating masculinity is somehow automatically misogynistic. It seems to me that the term has absolutely nothing to do with women.
>First, let's be clear that the term "brogrammer", tongue-in-cheek or not, is downright misogynistic.
No its not. It's a description of an attitude. When used in a job listing as "looking for brogrammers", then that job listing is sexist. The term itself however is not.
The problem is that it is a trend to the detriment of our profession. You don't have any other half way respectable profession with a sector of it trying to emulate being frat boys. Its embarrassing really.
Its a surprising slice of programming culture in that most who get into programming tend to be the polar opposite of frat boys. Maybe this is a side effect of The Social Network movie.
"Want to bro down and crush code? Klout is hiring."
Honestly, who does this type of recruiting really appeal to? Phrases like "crush code" have about as much of a cringe-factor to me as "wanted: code ninja".
I call Poe's Law :).
I have had so much fun with the brogrammer stereotype - developer jocks do exist and are quite common. We considered changing the name of our local developer meetup group from "Nerdy Food Meetups" to something "cooler" like Hungry Hackers, but we decided against it, lest the name prove too inviting for brogrammers. So far: success. The group has been 100% self-selective for nerds.
Kind of interesting.. excluding people not based on their qualifications (or ability to contribute), but based on their willingness to self-identify as a nerd. Doesn't seem very welcoming..
The problem with "bro" culture is its narcissistic conformism. I guess they are really looking for an excuse to behave badly. They know they are being assholes, so they manufacture a social environment in which they are encouraged to be assholes.
So listen, bros:
If you want to get drunk, and hit on chicks, that's your choice. But don't give in to peer pressure, and don't pressure your mates. Just be yourself.
what if women (concisely or subconsciously) find the bro sexually attractive. Could one of the reasons more women don't enter computer science be because of the perception of "slim social pickings?" I'm not suggesting I personally agree with the "bro" ideology but it's fair to consider those that do not choose to enter computer science (male or female) make that choice for reasons motivated by mate selection.
This is a toxic side-effect of a healthy thing: the rise in status of programming work.
In the dotcom boom, douchebags didn't program, they did MBAs and took for granted that as "business guys" they would have the lion's share of wealth and status just for being who they were. That many of them now feel compelled to join the profession their forebears saw as underlings and learn to actually do real work, while many of the rest are pleading for technical cofounders, are signs of a major shift.
Remember that video that did the rounds on HN a year or two ago about the Valley in the 70s? A typical technical cofounder would end up with 2% ownership and zero control. Compare that to Mark Zuckerberg retaining control of Facebook and extolling "the hacker way" in an SEC filing. It's a massive change in the right direction, and most of it has happened in the last 15 years and it's still accelerating. It will be interesting to see the social consequences. Annoying epiphenomena like "brogrammers" are inevitable, but deeper changes are the ones to watch for.
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[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 158 ms ] threadThe point of this blog post is basically that it doesn't matter if you program or what, if you're a douche, you are a douche.
Thankfully I work with no brogrammers - this might actually start being a hiring disadvantage if companies are known to be brogrammer-heavy.
Do they self-identify as "brogrammers?" If so, did they do so before joining Facebook or only after the fact?
The self-described bro in the linked article appears to only "program" in PHP according to his own website, so I think my assumption that he's just a monkey is fair.
How long until we see "Brogrammer needed" ads
I think it's probably not a good recruiting strategy, because it telegraphs both that this might be a problematic opening for women, and that anyone worried they'll be deemed too egghead/nerdy might want to pass. Even if you don't care about sexism (which you should), a job ad that implies that nerdy programmers may not be welcome really restricts the size of the candidate pool. On the other hand, if that's the company culture, maybe it's better to know ahead of time...
that's what I find funny about the whole thing. "we're hiring programmers! no nerds." that's an unlikely strategy for success even when programmers are easy to hire -- which they are currently not.
I think a lot of people are repulsed by the idea of spending a career surrounded by the "programmer" stereotype (i.e. monomaniacal, male, introverts). Part of me wonders whether advertising a more traditionally social work environment might not attract a lot of talent that doesn't fit the "programmer" mold (including women!).
brogrammer, n.: A programmer who breaks the usual expectations of quiet nerdiness and opts instead for the usual trappings of a frat-boy: popped collars, bad beer, and calling everybody "bro". Despised by everyone, especially other programmers.
Ex: Oh my god, John is talking about football and chicks again. That guy is such a brogrammer.
See also: programmer, frat boy, bro, douchebag, developer
This is not a good stereotype to conjure up, even in some ironic-parody-hipster sense.
It isn't a joke, either; I've definitely seen programmers where I've worked who really do act like that -- and they are like toxin for introverted programmers. Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro" constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical topics or hobbies.
Definitely. I can hardly imagine anything more off-putting. Alas, I have seen that kind of crude bragging in Hacker News comments every once in a while. The Hacker News readership skews young, so many of the participants here are still trying to establish long-term relationships. As someone who is approaching thirty years of marriage, I no longer have the preoccupation of finding the next girl--and I really never did, as I was looking for the ONE girl I could count on to be a good wife for a lifetime and a good mother for any children we happened to have. It has not escaped my notice that many Hacker News participants are still looking for ways to build a deep relationship with someone. I don't think bragging up one-night stands provides answers for the many readers here who have questions about that.
A lot of bigotry and exclusionary behavior is couched in terms of being "just a joke".
My predecessor at the current job fits the description - he was renowned for his sexist remarks and attitude. Don't know if he regards himself a "brogrammer".
Turns out a guy who doesn't give a shit what people think of his personality also doesn't give a shit about his code...
I would apply the term "brogrammer" to him in a strictly pejorative sense.
... and you don't have to be a bro to have fun.
This led to mannerisms, interests, and an external appearance adapted from my peers, but also to a quiet (though dominant) side of me that spends 20 of 24 hours each day pounding away at my keyboard. If I ever came across another programmer in the wild I'm not sure how I would be received.
It's weird to not fit in anywhere. But these guys just sound like douchebags.
Truth be told this 'us vs. them' is a relic of the Revenge of the Nerds days. Saying things like "no you're a bro you can't be one of us" or yelling "neeerrrrrrds" is exactly the same thing. As time wears on, the techs will seem to get less awkward and the bros will seems to get less "bro-y." It's the convergence that occurs once the social stigma of the 80s has worn off.
It should be noted though that tech conversation and "testosterversation" are really difficult to mix. If you're in one mode you don't want to keep switching back to the other.
The whole brogrammer meme reminds me a lot of DHH. Whenever you see him speak he is always dressed and groomed well and fashionably , likes to swear a lot and has a keen interest in fast cars.
It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.
If you take up a hobby just to appear cool then there's every chance you won't stick with it very long.
I'm sure there are many people who have taken up certain hobbies just to impress people and then found them legitimately enjoyable and fulfilling and they would continue to do them even if they became the most uncool thing.
Also since nerds have a tendency to hyper-focus on things in depth they will likely bring their nerd skills to something non nerdy and outdo the non nerds at it.
This is nothing more than the propagation of an unidea that people tolerate because it doesn't make any value judgements about either gender, or something.
The next generation of nerds distanced themselves from this somewhat by wearing heavy metal T shirts, having long hair and tattoos.
This became uncool too, so now we have the "brogrammer" with designer polo shirts and dark glasses.
It's interesting because nerds are regarded as "uncool" but I find it is quite often they are culturally ahead of the curve.
I'm not justifying the "brogrammer" nonsense, but just arguing that it's a field that does more closely represent all parts of demographics, shedding its traditional nerdly people-like-me basis.
Care to elaborate? You say it like it's obvious to everyone that being into those manuals is a heinous crime, or at least prima facie evidence of humongous douchebagdom in a person.
http://danilo.ariadoss.com/about/
Pretty much exactly what I expected.
In actual fact somebody probably wanted them to think this so that they could find a way to raid their wallets.
http://hogwartslive.wizards.pro/
I hope he does not advertise himself as a UI designer.
Most of those "drunk frat boys" someday grow up and get jobs somewhere. They're always the rare guy that everybody at their workplace hates, so I don't think anybody will ever legitimately associate programmers with party dudes. If anything, we're all lumped together as smug assholes who love to complain about other men's lifestyles.
I don't really care what someone does in their free time. If they can code well and they don't get in the way of my job, then they're fine. If their idea of a good weekend is going to a party with naked women, then I don't care. Claiming they're sexist is putting women on a pedestal, because some women chose to go to a party to meet such guys, and they're going to go back to their workplace and brag about the hot guys they saw at the party.
I'm not even a "brogrammer" by any means, but I hate how much male programmers go out of their way to claim to be morally superior.
The tech world is a meritocracy. If 'brogrammers' can live up to the standards then why shouldn't companies hire them? The question is will they make tons of sexist comments at work and make people uncomfortable? You have to hire a few and find out.
Try getting a technical job as with a popped collar. Even if you are technically very proficient, there is stigma and distrust from people like the author of the article
Kids these days...
Of course, there's nothing you can do about meat-zombies spamming crap to everyone.
That said, if you do happen to meet someone who takes it seriously and lives that "life", then they're dumber than you think they are.
Notice also how there's like no "brogrammers" in here giving us their side of the story? Almost as if they don't really exist? Or if they do, it's not a life or death to them, like it appears to be to the OP?
Funny to me because I wrote a rant about how Rails was no longer fashionable and Node is more fashionable these days. A few people dissed me for paying attention to tech fashion in the first place, but now HN is all up in arms, ready to break out the pitchforks and torches, over whether or not you wear a polo shirt.
I might jokingly label myself a "finance douchebag" but it's more a dig at my peers than an affirmation of the industry's behavior patterns.
The culture was becoming frat-house/locker-room long before the term was coined...(Now is there a feedback loop from memes like this, who knows?)
Getting upset over a meme seems kind of pointless. Plus the internets will always win.
http://www.linkedin.com/search/fpsearch?type=people&keyw...
That compares with more than 914,000 results for a people search of "programmer"
If we include groups, 2/3 of them are.
"We're the cool programmers" is particularly offensive because it alienates people who have been doing work in this area for some time.
I can understand wanting to refine your image but do it without slapping labels on something that belongs to many people, not just you.
Like saying "I don't understand haskell but that's cool because I can totally bong a bear unlike you losers"
Oh my, stereotypes FTW...
But equally problematic are the common beliefs that spawned the term in the first place; that programmers must always be obsessed with technology above all else, and to appreciate things like sports, fashion, or fast cars is somehow "bad" or "uncommon" for programmers.
There are a whole host of programmers who despise guys like DHH for enjoying fashion and cars. They seem to believe that somehow, those traits detract from his skill or significance as a programmer. That Rails is a "bad" or "fashionable" framework because of those things and is thus to be avoided. This kind of thinking is just plain ridiculous.
The spectrum on programming ranges from a hobby, to a career, even to the lengths of an obsession. But no one should be expected to act like the "norm". A programmer that cares more about the latest Ferrari than the latest web framework is not necessarily an undesirable programmer. They're just a programmer with different interests, and no one should be treating them differently because of that.
I take strong issue with the idea that celebrating masculinity is somehow automatically misogynistic. It seems to me that the term has absolutely nothing to do with women.
No its not. It's a description of an attitude. When used in a job listing as "looking for brogrammers", then that job listing is sexist. The term itself however is not.
Its a surprising slice of programming culture in that most who get into programming tend to be the polar opposite of frat boys. Maybe this is a side effect of The Social Network movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROlDmux7Tk4
Honestly, who does this type of recruiting really appeal to? Phrases like "crush code" have about as much of a cringe-factor to me as "wanted: code ninja".
Its called free choice. To each its own; don't nag somebody's way of life and correlate it to their talent. Don't hate what you do not understand.
Brogramming is state of mind. If you let yourself immerse in it, you will see.
So listen, bros:
If you want to get drunk, and hit on chicks, that's your choice. But don't give in to peer pressure, and don't pressure your mates. Just be yourself.
In the dotcom boom, douchebags didn't program, they did MBAs and took for granted that as "business guys" they would have the lion's share of wealth and status just for being who they were. That many of them now feel compelled to join the profession their forebears saw as underlings and learn to actually do real work, while many of the rest are pleading for technical cofounders, are signs of a major shift.
Remember that video that did the rounds on HN a year or two ago about the Valley in the 70s? A typical technical cofounder would end up with 2% ownership and zero control. Compare that to Mark Zuckerberg retaining control of Facebook and extolling "the hacker way" in an SEC filing. It's a massive change in the right direction, and most of it has happened in the last 15 years and it's still accelerating. It will be interesting to see the social consequences. Annoying epiphenomena like "brogrammers" are inevitable, but deeper changes are the ones to watch for.