Ask HN: Who's the current “Don't Be Evil” corporation?

13 points by zigurat ↗ HN
We all know that corporations sooner or later get into a spiral of enshittification and become a transnational data-grabbing, climate polluter, lock-in business problem.

However, some take longer to reach this point and we can at least enjoy their offerings in the mean time with less guilt.

So, what are the current least evil corporations?

41 comments

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The “don’t be evil” comes out of an extremely optimistic techno-futurism from the early Internet I’m not sure exists anymore. At best the current “optimist” techno futurist folks are at best talking about how to mitigate the negatives of things like AI.

I’d also say at this exact moment, trust with tech execs writ large is low, given fairly universal layoff trends.

Moral relativism is a trap. You end up supporting evil things; all they have to do is show you a slightly more evil thing. That's how the ruling class tricks people into voting Democrat, all they had to do was show everyone a Republican.

You mention several things: enshittification, data-collection, pollution, lock-in... What you don't mention is worst part: all capitalists/corporations are thiefs, they get a free ride off the backs of people who actually do the work. There's a reason it's called "wage slavery".

> That's how the ruling class tricks people into voting Democrat, all they had to do was show everyone a Republican.

Also the reverse. There are plenty of aspects of the Democrat party that are appalling to independent voters.

At the end of the day Democrats and Republicans are relatively ossified, it's the independent voters that are in play.

Long term, it's the teenagers who are really in play. The events that impact each generation as they transition into adulthood will impact their political views for the rest of their lives.
To a point, but it’s not unheard of for their political views to change quickly once they start paying taxes and have a family to take care of.
Arizona Iced Tea
Didn't they start as an alcohol company and shifted markets because of some weird business practices? I don't recall exactly, just remember something like that. Not even sure how evil it was or wasn't... I just watch/read a lot of food/nutrition related material and loosely recall.
Probably some company that is privately owned, pays its employees well, doesn’t sacrifice integrity for growth, and admits/corrects mistakes. We probably haven’t heard of them because the more growth-focused corps get the headlines.
Valve?
Check out this guy: https://twitter.com/richgel999

He's an ex-Valve coder who's basically on a personal crusade against them, revealing a lot of internal politics and other unpleasant stuff. Last I checked, he intended to write a book about it.

I got really excited upon seeing this, but then I checked out his twitter profile, and all his recent tweets were just rambles about UFO conspiracy theories with screenshots of snippets from random documents, all tagged with #ufotwitter hashtag.

I am not the kind of a person to care much about people's post history just to take a dig at them for it, and I am not judging him for being into it. This is all harmless and fine. But, sadly, the whole UFO conspiracy theory nonsense seriously undermines my trust in his takes on Valve and how things were actually going there.

Yep, same here. I stopped following his Twitter once he got similarly into UFO, perhaps a year ago.
He's a conspiracy theorist heavy into UFO and ESP with a grudge. Hardly credible.
I'm dreading the day Gabe steps down and the company gets immediately sold to Microsoft.

Their regional pricing in Argentina is very generous. Most people here would be completely priced out of the industry if they didn't do this.

They had issues with abuse and they solved it requiring local addresses for payment methods instead of nuking us from orbit.

I don't know why they are doing this, a lot of companies have pulled out of country due to the fake dollar exchange rate thing.

And I'm wary of saying it's generous since it's a for profit company, but I don't know if our pricing is even worth the bandwidth, since a lot of them are like 1/10th.

We are really lucky Valve exists here, it's on a league of its own.

OpenAI
The issues they face and will face with copyright is a big can of worms. They let users pay for prompts that fail because of errors on their side. And last but not least they require a phone number when signing up, for no apparent no reason and they’re vague about what it’s used for.

There are certainly evil undertones.

They changed to a for profit company, are currently trying to do regulatory capture, and still refuse to release thier models.
I think that OpenAI is very far from a "don't be evil" company.
Not a tech company, but Patagonia stands out currently as a "don't be evil" company. They recently dedicated their profits to go tackle climate change and protect land. Sustainability seems to have been a goal by the founder for a while (repairing or recycling clothes, using leftover scraps of fabric, etc.)
A lot of their PR is that way, but they also contract with Sri Lankan factories that don't provide livable wages and have long working hours. Patagonia says it's out of their control, but also... it's within their control to contract with these factories.

They may be _less_ evil, but not clear of all evils.

Hmm… this doesn’t comport with all that I’ve read and seen from Patagonia. I know the article you’re referring to, and my understanding is that it wasn’t completely accurate and doesn’t portray the situation as honestly as it could have. I’ve been a customer for 30 years and I feel confident in saying they walk the walk, it isn’t just PR…
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Probably Anthropic. [0] Founded on pro-social values, but controlling a technology which will be very difficult to refrain from ever-increasing monetization over time. Literally trying to position themselves as "The AI company, but not evil!"

0: https://www.anthropic.com/company

I think it's a mistake to anthropomorphize corporations. They are filled with people, some of whom are evil, some of whom are not, and some of whom are somewhere in between.
But there is such a thing as a set of corporate values independent of the people working in the corporation, and those values are not always good.
Most of the time those corporate values are just marketing.
I'm not talking about what companies publicly say their values are. That's obvious marketing nonsense. I'm talking about the values that inform their business decisions.
Hm. I think a person should probably stay wary of the limitations of anthropomorphizing a corporation, but it probably can work to a limited extent. To a limited extent, you can anthropomorphize entire countries with some degree of truth, or entire halves of the world. Eastern cultures lean a little more collectivist than Western cultures.
Obviously huggingface.

If you're going to downvote, you should explain why huggingface is evil right now. They're literally the bastion of open source AI.

I didn't downvote, but I think there's a difference between a company being a "don't be evil" company and being an evil company.

Huggingface may very well be perceived as neutral or unproven, and so qualifies as neither. (Just speculating).

> They're literally the bastion of open source AI.

I don't see how that affects the "evil or not" question at all.

Well, I consider OpenAI evil for not open sourcing their... Everything.

Everything meaningful that huggingface does is open source. They are literally the atlas holding up NLP and diffusion models right now. They are the least evil company in tech right now by far.

Well, if your yardstick of for measuring "evil" is just whether or not they support open source, I understand your stance.

But I disagree with that as the measure. There are OSS outfits that I think do evil.

I know nothing about Huggingface and so I'm not commenting on them specifically. I'm just speaking generally.

Cloudflare. Builds really cool tech and currently seems to operate with good intentions, but has the potential to be hugely destructive to the open internet, and big enough to be unstoppable.
"Don't be evil" is a very weak statement of ethics; let's hope it's not the high-water mark!

Corporate evilness is a function of market forces over time, as limited by culture. You'd have to look for a corporation whose market grows as a result of being good. For Google initially, to get people to trust it with email and search to get the scale required for its flywheel. Also note that any culture strong enough to resist market forces requires strong selection mechanisms if not group-think and sacrifice.

One example is Veeva, a public benefit corporation that does Java infrastructure for pharma trials. Even more than most enterprise X-AAS companies, they have a small number of large customers, so they grow by being compliant to their concerns. Normally competitors would not share infrastructure, but here it helps since the pharma companies both gain leverage against the FDA by having consistent processes, and share implementation of common FDA mandates. It helps that software infrastructure for trials is definitely not a differentiator in the market for drugs (though it can be a moat against competitors if properly designed).

The head of Veeva took this opportunity to remake the company as a public benefit corporation, with an internal culture of service (albeit with a managerial bias towards data-driven decisions circa 2018). Mostly experienced dev's with families.

A pure-culture play is Expensify, which does expense reporting. They know the business is not sexy, so they opted for a thoroughly employee-oriented culture to attract people who have a good work-life balance. They support work-anywhere and have had regular employee work retreats in various countries. They have their own tech stack, so it's insular both ways. Lots of younger wondering self-taught good people. A rare fintech success story.

Of course, the best example is Apple. Services and high prices notwithstanding, they decided to put themselves squarely behind the user instead of abusing them through ads and such. Famously strong culture, surprisingly decentralized, fantastic stack for the legacy and scale, etc. Apple is the only company I know of any size that intentionally shapes their market and inputs to do good. (Whether history will forgive them their benefits to China is another question.)