Why is this so bad? The difference between what was said there and what is said behind closed doors is... closed doors. Many people in this community, or with similar goals to many in this community, talk that way. Perhaps many people are less abstract and more practical, but the end game is still the same.
Back when I was young and naive, a year or so ago, I'd talked with many about wanting to meet with Sequoia. Since then I've met with Sequoia and become a little less young.
Vagueness, name dropping, [cargo cult entrepreneurship], hubris, and absurd sentences like 'If you have nothing better to do, let's change the world.' All in the context of a world with enough information on starting web businesses online to read past this level of naivety. All things hackers intend to bristle at.
On the scale from savvy to clueless, this doesn't rate well. But the snarky tone of the headline isn't any better. Sequoia isn't even spelled properly...
1) Worship of icons and behaviors instead of the things which they represent; that is, cargo cult entrepreneurship. This is my own vague and probably incorrect usage.
2) If someone exclaims "Let's change the world," I would ask "Which part? Why?"
Iconoclasm has a secondary meaning "A person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions." Changing the world does; to do so vaguely, or at random, or without actually mentioning the target, is not always such a sane thing to do.
Iconoclasm actually means the opposite. Iconoclasts were a bunch of people in the middle ages who had something against religious images and so went around breaking them. Icons = images. Clasm = break.
So the traditional meaning of iconoclast in this context would be someone who seeks to break accepted imagery on a specific topic.
I could more readily agree with what you're saying if a great resource like Hacker News didn't consistently get high-ranked items with headlines like "10 Ways To Get Motivated To Change The World By Starting A Startup"
For what it's worth: the CraigsList poster is light years ahead of midwestern Union workers are with their compulsions to invest in Quixtar and 'systems' from Carleton Sheets.
But really, who is to judge? I think it's cool that this person is, at the very least, pretending to try.
I think it's cool too. And I'd give them encouragement. And I'd try to resist the urge to pat them on the head.
But as for why it's getting voted up, that's my assessment.
Honestly, I really dislike the self-consciously self-focused articles we've been getting like our "10 Ways to Get Motivated..." articles. It's so... contentless. I come here for "Hacker News," not "'Hacker News,' News."
Before you make the decision (or even do marketing) you should know that you're able to build the product. That being said, I highly doubt (given the fact these people don't even mention anything about their idea) that they did any market research.
I really didn't have anything negative to say about the Craigslist post - we've all seen this sort of naivety before. Most of us have even been there.
But what really bothered me personally is that this was posted in the Boca Raton Craigslist area. If you can afford to live in Boca (median home price: 420k, http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bpretire/2006/snapsh...), you can afford to at least provide some form of compensation (beer? pizza? caffeine? hell, just take me out to dinner and I'll help draw up some cost estimates.)
Maybe I'm generalizing based on an area (and who has spare cash around nowadays anyway), but I'm so tired of people with plenty in the bank asking me to develop an idea for free.
If you have a "considerable history in marketing," you should know better.
I live in a place with a median house value of over $500k (north san francisco bay), yet I am not swimming in money. The key is that I don't own a house. The monthly payments on a 30 year mortgage would be more than my monthly after tax income. I rent an apartment.
Living in a rich area doesn't make you rich. Perhaps he lives in Boca Raton because that is where his last job was or where his wife works. Maybe his mortgage payments are so high that he can't afford to buy you beer.
I live outside of Boston, where the median home price is way north of 500k. And living in a rich area doesn't make you rich - I can attest to that personally, too: I rent, I eat ramen.
But I know that if someone made this proposition to me, in the Boston area, I'd expect something in return. I don't think asking for a meal or some beer is out of line. It's more symbolic than anything.
If you're not in the position to buy me a dinner in exchange for a few hours of my services, then I really wonder if you're in the position to start a company. No offense intended - but if you are about to go the VC route, then the VC will be asking you to make a lot bigger personal bets than a simple dinner.
But anyway, this is all speculation, and HackerNews isn't a place for speculation. I'd go back and edit my comment, but the edit window is expired. C'est la vie, mod me down accordingly.
It was intense for me, but they were quite adept at making me at ease. They asked great questions and were quite honest about their positions on things, (their level of interest, their feeling about the market I'm in, etc). I'm using "they" to maintain propriety, but my experience was only with one partner. I've met a few of the partners through Y Combinator and all of them seem on the up and up. In fact, I moved back to New York City after Y Combinator Summer '07 and ran into Greg McAdoo and his wife in Central Park. It was a brief chat, but I was impressed that he remembered me.
I think Sequoia has the track record to be able to spare everyone the game playing. As I said, the meeting arose out of a cold email, so that's quite telling on its own. I definitely feel that I could return to them when I think my company's position has matured and it's more appropriate to raise a series A.
Sequoia and Matrix stand out as two firms that will provide advice while simultaneously performing cursory due diligence. That's a plus for non-business types like myself.
The fact that he lives in Wellington or Boca Raton means he very well may know someone at Sequoia Capital, or his father may have founded Nextel, etc. etc. That wouldn't surprise me.
On that note, what sort of compensation IS acceptable?
I'd join someone with a vision I believed in/thought would succeed for no salary and all equity.
I wouldnt give up any $ salary for equity to work for a concept I didn't believe in.
How much would it take for you to work for all salary and no equity? I feel like the general consensus in the community seems to be that people undervalue/underpay developers but despite all that I've never really had an idea of what the asking price really is, except that its probably somewhere between 50k and 150k
Since when have the qualities of enthusiasm and naivety become so easily interchangeable?
I’m sure that some of what has been posted is simply brutal honesty, and the realities of this business are certain to mar what lofty expectations some may have about entering it. But, like a marriage, it isn’t enough to deter and corral me.
I have come to form an honest opinion about life. You are one of two people in this world: The person who writes about others, and the person whom others write about.
I’ll be honest, reading some of this did take me back a little, both because of the message and what appears to be a brooding opinion about such hopefulness that I displayed in my ad. In one sense, I am glad to see this at the onset, so that I know it exists. I’ve faced countless obstacles in my life, some seemingly insurmountable, but time and again I have overcome them.
Attached is my letter to my responders. Feel free to comment away.
All,
If you read about this posting on the Hacker’s Web Site, feel free to continue reading, but I would prefer to work with people closer, for convenience issues, of course. If you are still very interested in the project, be sure to contact me with any questions.
Plenty of people have expressed an interest -- many more than I thought would, so we’re off to a great start. Not everyone will be involved, though, but I have been impressed by much of the stuff I’ve seen already.
I put out the initial ad with very few details about the project, hoping that there would be people out there who still possess that entrepreneurial, heck-let’s-do-this spirit. If I’ve gotten respondents who are looking for the next great business proposition, with a low disposition for patience and computer craftsmanship and those who are only searching for a complete by-the-books partnership, you can just move on, there’s nothing for you here.
Like I told one respondent, I’m 28 years old and I’ve accomplished much more than most would in 58. I would like to take advantage of what is left of my youth to push the limits of my creativity and my ideas.
I have worked hard all my life. I got into Journalism -- and by extension marketing -- at the age of 18 and have been doing it for 10 years; going from submitting articles for free to publisher of a regional chain of newspapers. I’m the guy who exposes the scammer every week through my work and the work of my reporters.
But I am asked if I am perhaps just a little wide-eyed? Sure as hell I am. But has it paid off? Sure as hell it has.
There is a time and a place for material plans, for concrete designs and implementations -- that is the entire reason for meeting, and NDAs. So I look forward to it. No, I don’t claim to know the ins and outs of the industry, but time and history have proven that convention limits you; let’s create our own type of convention and not follow what has been done before us.
I have the detailed outlines of these plans ready, and, beyond that, am ready to tweak and chisel away at until they’re perfect. But there are significant twists to these concepts that, in my mind, at least, guarantee success.
At least the initial terms will focus on a few key areas: careful implementation, a process outlined by frugality, and an experience that we will introduce, but not tie up precious resources and man hours having to maintain.
That is not a gate being closed to external ideas.
I began this search for ‘mad men’ and that is entirely what I am searching for. I’m looking for Lennon. I’m looking for Allen. I’m looking for Lincoln, for Gore. I’m looking for Gehrig, for Domingo, for my Whitman, my Thomas, my Dylan. This will not be an individualistic project, not at all.
But I’d rather have a close-knit group of guys, a handful or less, with like-minded ideals, than a squad full of geniuses with an elitist view of the world. I’d rather have a rock band than a science lab.
I’m looking to contribute and to gain equal parts of what we’ll sow, and none will do less than anyone else, or ...
36 comments
[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 85.1 ms ] threadBack when I was young and naive, a year or so ago, I'd talked with many about wanting to meet with Sequoia. Since then I've met with Sequoia and become a little less young.
On the scale from savvy to clueless, this doesn't rate well. But the snarky tone of the headline isn't any better. Sequoia isn't even spelled properly...
1) Worship of icons and behaviors instead of the things which they represent; that is, cargo cult entrepreneurship. This is my own vague and probably incorrect usage.
2) If someone exclaims "Let's change the world," I would ask "Which part? Why?"
Iconoclasm has a secondary meaning "A person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions." Changing the world does; to do so vaguely, or at random, or without actually mentioning the target, is not always such a sane thing to do.
So the traditional meaning of iconoclast in this context would be someone who seeks to break accepted imagery on a specific topic.
For what it's worth: the CraigsList poster is light years ahead of midwestern Union workers are with their compulsions to invest in Quixtar and 'systems' from Carleton Sheets.
But really, who is to judge? I think it's cool that this person is, at the very least, pretending to try.
But as for why it's getting voted up, that's my assessment.
Honestly, I really dislike the self-consciously self-focused articles we've been getting like our "10 Ways to Get Motivated..." articles. It's so... contentless. I come here for "Hacker News," not "'Hacker News,' News."
I am amazed that people have the chutzpah to act like that these days (e.g.: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=362066).
Call me old fashioned, but what about building the product first (and learning the skills needed to be competent enough to do so)?
But what really bothered me personally is that this was posted in the Boca Raton Craigslist area. If you can afford to live in Boca (median home price: 420k, http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bpretire/2006/snapsh...), you can afford to at least provide some form of compensation (beer? pizza? caffeine? hell, just take me out to dinner and I'll help draw up some cost estimates.)
Maybe I'm generalizing based on an area (and who has spare cash around nowadays anyway), but I'm so tired of people with plenty in the bank asking me to develop an idea for free.
If you have a "considerable history in marketing," you should know better.
Living in a rich area doesn't make you rich. Perhaps he lives in Boca Raton because that is where his last job was or where his wife works. Maybe his mortgage payments are so high that he can't afford to buy you beer.
I like to reserve judgment whenever possible.
Where do you live?
But I know that if someone made this proposition to me, in the Boston area, I'd expect something in return. I don't think asking for a meal or some beer is out of line. It's more symbolic than anything.
If you're not in the position to buy me a dinner in exchange for a few hours of my services, then I really wonder if you're in the position to start a company. No offense intended - but if you are about to go the VC route, then the VC will be asking you to make a lot bigger personal bets than a simple dinner.
But anyway, this is all speculation, and HackerNews isn't a place for speculation. I'd go back and edit my comment, but the edit window is expired. C'est la vie, mod me down accordingly.
My apologies if I offended anyone.
I think Sequoia has the track record to be able to spare everyone the game playing. As I said, the meeting arose out of a cold email, so that's quite telling on its own. I definitely feel that I could return to them when I think my company's position has matured and it's more appropriate to raise a series A.
Sequoia and Matrix stand out as two firms that will provide advice while simultaneously performing cursory due diligence. That's a plus for non-business types like myself.
I still email them every once in a while.
And the change the world shit is lame.
NSA.
he'll get a rude awakening soon enough, but i would imagine HN ought to encourage starting somewhere rather than not trying at all?
</preach> :)
They will all get a rude awakening, I mean.
I've had a few of those in my life. They're pretty valuable, actually.
Good to hear I'm not the only one dumb enough to have done stuff like this in the past.
I'd join someone with a vision I believed in/thought would succeed for no salary and all equity.
I wouldnt give up any $ salary for equity to work for a concept I didn't believe in.
How much would it take for you to work for all salary and no equity? I feel like the general consensus in the community seems to be that people undervalue/underpay developers but despite all that I've never really had an idea of what the asking price really is, except that its probably somewhere between 50k and 150k
I’m sure that some of what has been posted is simply brutal honesty, and the realities of this business are certain to mar what lofty expectations some may have about entering it. But, like a marriage, it isn’t enough to deter and corral me.
I have come to form an honest opinion about life. You are one of two people in this world: The person who writes about others, and the person whom others write about.
I’ll be honest, reading some of this did take me back a little, both because of the message and what appears to be a brooding opinion about such hopefulness that I displayed in my ad. In one sense, I am glad to see this at the onset, so that I know it exists. I’ve faced countless obstacles in my life, some seemingly insurmountable, but time and again I have overcome them.
Attached is my letter to my responders. Feel free to comment away.
All,
If you read about this posting on the Hacker’s Web Site, feel free to continue reading, but I would prefer to work with people closer, for convenience issues, of course. If you are still very interested in the project, be sure to contact me with any questions.
Plenty of people have expressed an interest -- many more than I thought would, so we’re off to a great start. Not everyone will be involved, though, but I have been impressed by much of the stuff I’ve seen already.
I put out the initial ad with very few details about the project, hoping that there would be people out there who still possess that entrepreneurial, heck-let’s-do-this spirit. If I’ve gotten respondents who are looking for the next great business proposition, with a low disposition for patience and computer craftsmanship and those who are only searching for a complete by-the-books partnership, you can just move on, there’s nothing for you here.
Like I told one respondent, I’m 28 years old and I’ve accomplished much more than most would in 58. I would like to take advantage of what is left of my youth to push the limits of my creativity and my ideas.
I have worked hard all my life. I got into Journalism -- and by extension marketing -- at the age of 18 and have been doing it for 10 years; going from submitting articles for free to publisher of a regional chain of newspapers. I’m the guy who exposes the scammer every week through my work and the work of my reporters.
But I am asked if I am perhaps just a little wide-eyed? Sure as hell I am. But has it paid off? Sure as hell it has.
There is a time and a place for material plans, for concrete designs and implementations -- that is the entire reason for meeting, and NDAs. So I look forward to it. No, I don’t claim to know the ins and outs of the industry, but time and history have proven that convention limits you; let’s create our own type of convention and not follow what has been done before us.
I have the detailed outlines of these plans ready, and, beyond that, am ready to tweak and chisel away at until they’re perfect. But there are significant twists to these concepts that, in my mind, at least, guarantee success.
At least the initial terms will focus on a few key areas: careful implementation, a process outlined by frugality, and an experience that we will introduce, but not tie up precious resources and man hours having to maintain.
That is not a gate being closed to external ideas.
I began this search for ‘mad men’ and that is entirely what I am searching for. I’m looking for Lennon. I’m looking for Allen. I’m looking for Lincoln, for Gore. I’m looking for Gehrig, for Domingo, for my Whitman, my Thomas, my Dylan. This will not be an individualistic project, not at all.
But I’d rather have a close-knit group of guys, a handful or less, with like-minded ideals, than a squad full of geniuses with an elitist view of the world. I’d rather have a rock band than a science lab.
I’m looking to contribute and to gain equal parts of what we’ll sow, and none will do less than anyone else, or ...