And here I was, thinking it was unusable by keyboard.
But sure, this would help with the discoverability problem a lot. "Oh, there's a lot of useful contextual options...somewhere, maybe." Once you know where to look, that is - a chicken-and-egg problem.
The impression I got from the Customer preview was "Not on a smartphone? No touchscreen? You're not worthy, go away." Well, that's good to know, too ;)
Put it back the way it was. That worked very well with a mouse!
Windows 8 is all change for the sake of change rather than a rational incremental improvement.
I REALLY like Windows 8 for the non-metro stuff. They've fixed loads of really annoying broken things from Windows 7. Unfortunately, they broke just about everything else with Metro. If you've ever seen the corresponding Windows Server release (with Metro I shit you not - on a Server!??!?!), you will see armies of sysadmins facepalming in unison. It's terrible.
I'd rather have a Windows 7.5 than a Windows 8 at the moment.
All these claims of W8 being "unusable"... I don't understand the use of this word.
Once in a blue moon, there comes an event that makes the Internet completely unbearable to me, no matter where I go. New, high profile product launches are typically this way. The outrage on the Internet when the iPod was announced, the iPhone, the iPad. When WP7 came out. A new update to Ubuntu. Any change in Google or Facebook. All labeled by the Internet as horrible failures. The last version is always the best (until you get used to the newest one).
There exists a set of loudmouths with nothing better to than rile up the hivemind, and rile they do. A potentially good product is dead before it even goes live, based on misconceptions, "viral" videos, and preconceived notions based on misreported facts and wild, irresponsible speculation. Imagine if the Internet culture was around when DOS was replaced by Windows.
Microsoft knows what they're doing. And if they don't, they'll figure it out pretty quick, or they'll die. Guess what? This is a beta "preview" release. No Windows has launched without a tutorial since at least Windows 95. If Windows 8 is a failure, it'll be because of wild, speculative bullshit, not because it's a bad product. Using a computer is not intuitive by itself. All your complaints would be equally valid going from Windows 8 to Windows 7.
See, this is what I'm talking about. This is the bullshit hyperbole I mentioned. You claim Microsoft doesn't know what they're doing, yet they are wildly successful still. Windows Vista is a great example of a product that died for the exact reasons I described.
freehunter: "If Windows 8 is a failure, it'll be because of wild, speculative bullshit, not because it's a bad product."
acqq: "Vista"
freehunter: "Windows Vista is a great example of a product that died for the exact reasons I described."
I still don't see how you can be sure that "Windows 8" is not going to be the new Vista. You claimed that "complainers" make Microsoft's OS's fail, but the truth is -- Vista was bad OS not because of complainers but because of poor execution. The whole process of failed development is properly documented, all with the need to "start over" and "to release anything" fast after too much time went by.
That MSFT can earn money because of lock-in and a lot of companies that are practically forced to subscribe is independent fact to the quality of the particular OS release. Or the quality of their UI decisions -- not once they had to "undo" some of their UI "improvements."
Vista was not Microsoft's best OS, but it was (and is) nowhere near as unusable as people claim. A few big problems it suffered: its minimum requirements were not generally met by the hardware it was running on. This is partly Microsoft's fault (for authoring "Vista Capable" stickers to underpowered hardware) part the fault of the manufacturer (for making said hardware) and part the fault of the user or whoever was making the decision to purchase (for buying low quality hardware). Another issue was the sidebar, which hogged memory. Turning it off is enough to fix most systems which exceed the minimum spec. The last major issue was driver support (which was the downfall of ME as well). Manufacturers assumed that they could use the same (or very similar) drivers for Vista, which wasn't the case. Result: poor hardware performance.
Vista had development problems, but it was released in a working state. All they did was cut a few features (which still haven't surfaced) at no true cost to the performance of the OS. Word got out online that Vista had a few problems, and since the Microsoft hate was reaching a peak (mainly because of Apple's advertising), it was the new punching bag. People followed the hate without listening to reasonable explanations.
If you say W8 is the "new Vista", in your mind and in the minds of those who listen to you, this is already true no matter what Microsoft does. At this point, you're just spouting wild, speculative bullshit because it fits with what you want to think. Wait until the baby is born, don't condemn it to hell based on the ultrasound.
With Vista Microsoft implemented the "new look" with assumptions of "working acceptably" only with the most powerful graphics cards. Even Windows 8 doesn't misuse the graphics hardware like Vista did. There's nothing more needed to prove that your premise "MSFT knows what they are doing" is false.
freehunter: "Wait until the baby is born, don't condemn it to hell based on the ultrasound"
Ultrasound can actually precisely diagnose the foetuses that certainly won't be healthy. To be sure it will be healthy is the harder task.
"Condemn to hell"? I don't think you help your arguments with such language. I certainly won't write in this thread anymore. Too flamy here.
Well, they seem to know what they're doing: pushing a unified, one-size-fits-all interface (and I've tried to honestly use it, on a desktop, for a day; without a touch interface, it feels very clumsy). The trouble with one-size-fits-all is obvious: it never does. Note that the linked site is not only "riling up the hivemind," but also proposing solutions to the UX problems as present in the Consumer Preview (because there's nothing else publicly out there to base the suggestions on).
That's constructive criticism if I ever saw any - and loyalty to the brand as well: that site doesn't say "eh wind0z3 iz teh suxxorz, hate hate," but "I like Windows, but these are the specific problems I see with Win8 as it's currently presented; this I propose to fix the issues".
I would argue yes. Why stick with a broken design? Just because you're used to it? What about people who aren't used to it? If there's a better way, why not strive for it?
The start screen is for starting tasks. I agree that it works as well as any other (it has search, that's all you really need). I'm talking about switching between running tasks though. What is the Windows 8 method that is superior to a taskbar?
Tiled windows managers are not new by the way. But Microsoft has made one that's not very intuitive or full featured for a mouse/keyboard.
There is also move your mouse to the corner, which displays a list of running programs. You then select the one you want. It's like a classic start menu populated with all your open windows.
Have you actually used the W8 CP, or read the website? The desktop is still there; and that taskbar is there as well, but it's hard to discover (most of the UI elements are hidden by default, and it's not even obvious they exist). Most of the changes proposed are not UI overhauls, nor Metro killers, but more of a repositioning of various elements when using the system without a touch device.
In other words, you seem to be doing quite the same thing you accuse others of, but in reverse: "you're either 110% happy with the perfect UI in the new release, or MS haters." The UI has potential to be useful, but it currently feels half-baked (and there isn't time to finish such major changes between a CP and RTM versions); perhaps W9 will finish and polish it?
The desktop is there as a backwards compatibility crutch. It's not discoverable because Microsoft doesn't want you to discover it. XP Mode in Windows 7 isn't discoverable either.
I take exception to the "either a lover or a hater" comment. I have plenty of criticisms of Windows 8, like I had many with Windows 7. But if there's one thing you learn about trying to talk some sense into the Internet, it's to not waffle on your position. Look at how quickly people picked up on "one single consumer reportedly didn't like the Windows 8 beta, therefore Windows 8 is a complete failure!" bandwagon. Now imagine the responses any reasonable debate would garner if someone said "I think Windows 8 will be good, but one thing I don't like is..."
Yeah, the very next response would be "see, even Microsoft lovers hate Windows 8!"
Well, let's get that out of the way, then: "see, even Microsoft lovers hate Windows 8!" ;o) Anyway: you do have a point with waffle-resistance; but "talking sense into the Internet" sounds a bit futile...especially when the Internet is trying to do the same, with senses that are incompatible to yours. The video is indeed somewhat unfortunate (note that I've actually watched it much later than this discussion started) in that it's easy to latch on, instead of the - somewhat positive - rest of that site.
Your comment leads me to believe you have not used Windows 8. Metro, at least in the DP and CP releases, are very cumbersome with mouse and keyboard. These problems go beyond "unfinished features in beta". It's not glitchy animations and missing features. The whole paradigm is rotten.
I actually use Windows 8 at home in a virtual machine under Ubuntu 11.10, I have no problems with it. This is why I cannot understand the reaction of "unusable". Is the problem moving around the start screen? Use the scroll wheel. Is the problem swiping to log in? Press a key on your keyboard. Is the problem exiting Metro apps? Press the Windows key (which has had the same behavior for almost 20 years, bringing you back to the start menu). Windows 8 feel eminently usable with a mouse and a keyboard.
When it comes to pouring water on the Internet rage machine, I feel like I should be paid by Microsoft. I'm not praising them, it just seems like facts and reason go out the window when it comes to how much vitriolic and vicious hatred people can pile on. It doesn't matter if your statement is true, it will become true as you keep repeating it.
The only thing that is different is that it is different. It's no less usable than the tired "desktop" metaphor.
I've long argued the correlation between DOS and Windows vs Windows 7 and Windows 8. It seems no one cares. No, this time will be different, this time people can't change their computing habits.
Changing your computing habits may not bee too hard; the problem is changing your computer hardware. Like in TFA, it's that Windows 8 has been so focused on providing a compelling interface for touchscreen users that it fails to provide a decent interface for keyboard&mouse users. The problem runs so deep that Win8 takes away much of what we've come up with in the course of decades' worth of experimentation with how to use a keyboard and mouse to interact with computers, and instead asks kb&m users to emulate touchscreen idioms such as swipe gestures.
The problem isn't insurmountable - the fixes are actually quite small, as the blog that hosts TFA points out pretty often. In fact, I'd like to point out that there wasn't quite so much of this hubbub over Windows 8 developer preview. This is because developer preview had a decent (not necessarily great in Metro, but decent overall) interaction model for users of normal computers, which Microsoft subsequently removed for no apparent reason.
I would say it continues to build upon what Windows 7 (and even Windows 95) was doing. Instead of a desktop full of shortcuts and a start menu full of shortcuts, you now have a full screen start menu to replace all that. Like the desktop, the start screen scales to your screen resolution, allowing more icons when the resolution is higher.
It lets you scroll around all your shortcuts and allows you to see relevant information about them without even opening them (replacing the sidebar, which was the cause of quite a few "Vista is slow!" complaints). You can use the Windows key to simultaneously perform the action of "open the start menu" and "show the desktop".
I'm not sure I understand the point about mouse gestures. Mouse gestures have been around for a lot longer than Windows 8 (see, Opera browser). If you're specifically referring to the unlock screen, just press a key on your keyboard. This will likely be included in a tutorial for the release. If you mean mouse gestures to perform shortcut actions, Windows 8 has a pretty extensive keyboard shortcut list for power users.
Dev and consumer preview are out there for a reason - MS wants to hear a feedback. So here, you have it. It might be not a feedback they hoped for, but it is feedback nonetheless.
Feedback is one thing. "Scrap the whole concept" is unrealistic. Even the solutions presented in the article would rip the heart out of Metro (adding a task bar and a desktop).
33 comments
[ 5.5 ms ] story [ 87.2 ms ] threadBut sure, this would help with the discoverability problem a lot. "Oh, there's a lot of useful contextual options...somewhere, maybe." Once you know where to look, that is - a chicken-and-egg problem.
The impression I got from the Customer preview was "Not on a smartphone? No touchscreen? You're not worthy, go away." Well, that's good to know, too ;)
Windows 8 is all change for the sake of change rather than a rational incremental improvement.
I REALLY like Windows 8 for the non-metro stuff. They've fixed loads of really annoying broken things from Windows 7. Unfortunately, they broke just about everything else with Metro. If you've ever seen the corresponding Windows Server release (with Metro I shit you not - on a Server!??!?!), you will see armies of sysadmins facepalming in unison. It's terrible.
I'd rather have a Windows 7.5 than a Windows 8 at the moment.
Once in a blue moon, there comes an event that makes the Internet completely unbearable to me, no matter where I go. New, high profile product launches are typically this way. The outrage on the Internet when the iPod was announced, the iPhone, the iPad. When WP7 came out. A new update to Ubuntu. Any change in Google or Facebook. All labeled by the Internet as horrible failures. The last version is always the best (until you get used to the newest one).
There exists a set of loudmouths with nothing better to than rile up the hivemind, and rile they do. A potentially good product is dead before it even goes live, based on misconceptions, "viral" videos, and preconceived notions based on misreported facts and wild, irresponsible speculation. Imagine if the Internet culture was around when DOS was replaced by Windows.
Microsoft knows what they're doing. And if they don't, they'll figure it out pretty quick, or they'll die. Guess what? This is a beta "preview" release. No Windows has launched without a tutorial since at least Windows 95. If Windows 8 is a failure, it'll be because of wild, speculative bullshit, not because it's a bad product. Using a computer is not intuitive by itself. All your complaints would be equally valid going from Windows 8 to Windows 7.
acqq: "Vista"
freehunter: "Windows Vista is a great example of a product that died for the exact reasons I described."
I still don't see how you can be sure that "Windows 8" is not going to be the new Vista. You claimed that "complainers" make Microsoft's OS's fail, but the truth is -- Vista was bad OS not because of complainers but because of poor execution. The whole process of failed development is properly documented, all with the need to "start over" and "to release anything" fast after too much time went by.
That MSFT can earn money because of lock-in and a lot of companies that are practically forced to subscribe is independent fact to the quality of the particular OS release. Or the quality of their UI decisions -- not once they had to "undo" some of their UI "improvements."
Vista had development problems, but it was released in a working state. All they did was cut a few features (which still haven't surfaced) at no true cost to the performance of the OS. Word got out online that Vista had a few problems, and since the Microsoft hate was reaching a peak (mainly because of Apple's advertising), it was the new punching bag. People followed the hate without listening to reasonable explanations.
If you say W8 is the "new Vista", in your mind and in the minds of those who listen to you, this is already true no matter what Microsoft does. At this point, you're just spouting wild, speculative bullshit because it fits with what you want to think. Wait until the baby is born, don't condemn it to hell based on the ultrasound.
freehunter: "Wait until the baby is born, don't condemn it to hell based on the ultrasound"
Ultrasound can actually precisely diagnose the foetuses that certainly won't be healthy. To be sure it will be healthy is the harder task.
"Condemn to hell"? I don't think you help your arguments with such language. I certainly won't write in this thread anymore. Too flamy here.
That's constructive criticism if I ever saw any - and loyalty to the brand as well: that site doesn't say "eh wind0z3 iz teh suxxorz, hate hate," but "I like Windows, but these are the specific problems I see with Win8 as it's currently presented; this I propose to fix the issues".
In other words, are they useful because they're inherently better, or are they useful because that's what you're used to?
Tiled windows managers are not new by the way. But Microsoft has made one that's not very intuitive or full featured for a mouse/keyboard.
Or just alt+tab.
In other words, you seem to be doing quite the same thing you accuse others of, but in reverse: "you're either 110% happy with the perfect UI in the new release, or MS haters." The UI has potential to be useful, but it currently feels half-baked (and there isn't time to finish such major changes between a CP and RTM versions); perhaps W9 will finish and polish it?
I take exception to the "either a lover or a hater" comment. I have plenty of criticisms of Windows 8, like I had many with Windows 7. But if there's one thing you learn about trying to talk some sense into the Internet, it's to not waffle on your position. Look at how quickly people picked up on "one single consumer reportedly didn't like the Windows 8 beta, therefore Windows 8 is a complete failure!" bandwagon. Now imagine the responses any reasonable debate would garner if someone said "I think Windows 8 will be good, but one thing I don't like is..."
Yeah, the very next response would be "see, even Microsoft lovers hate Windows 8!"
When it comes to pouring water on the Internet rage machine, I feel like I should be paid by Microsoft. I'm not praising them, it just seems like facts and reason go out the window when it comes to how much vitriolic and vicious hatred people can pile on. It doesn't matter if your statement is true, it will become true as you keep repeating it.
The only thing that is different is that it is different. It's no less usable than the tired "desktop" metaphor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UxwAlqCCmk
And still there were a lot of people who eschewed the Start menu and used Program Manager for a long time. One can expect similar cues for the new OS.
The problem isn't insurmountable - the fixes are actually quite small, as the blog that hosts TFA points out pretty often. In fact, I'd like to point out that there wasn't quite so much of this hubbub over Windows 8 developer preview. This is because developer preview had a decent (not necessarily great in Metro, but decent overall) interaction model for users of normal computers, which Microsoft subsequently removed for no apparent reason.
It lets you scroll around all your shortcuts and allows you to see relevant information about them without even opening them (replacing the sidebar, which was the cause of quite a few "Vista is slow!" complaints). You can use the Windows key to simultaneously perform the action of "open the start menu" and "show the desktop".
I'm not sure I understand the point about mouse gestures. Mouse gestures have been around for a lot longer than Windows 8 (see, Opera browser). If you're specifically referring to the unlock screen, just press a key on your keyboard. This will likely be included in a tutorial for the release. If you mean mouse gestures to perform shortcut actions, Windows 8 has a pretty extensive keyboard shortcut list for power users.
http://www.windows8news.com/2012/03/12/microsoft-release-win...
This is good user-interface research though. UI developers take note.