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A+ for O'Reilly Customer Service: Keep the books and donate them

182 points by nagoo ↗ HN
The other day while placing an order through O'Reilly, I inadvertently submitted two orders. When I caught the mistake, O'Reilly had already shipped two identical orders to me. They gave me a full refund, however, instead of making me ship the books back to them the told me to just go ahead and donate them to a school or library. Donating books is way more fun than a trip to USPS.

54 comments

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wyan
It's nice style :)
plessthanpt05
And this is why O'Reilly is leaps & bounds ahead of everyone else in technical & scientific publishing -- particularly regarding the respect it has gained from people in said fields!
bryanlarsen
I may be too cynical, but I bet that the authors of those books didn't get paid. They were probably marked as "destroyed" in O'Reilly's accounting system.
[dead] turbulence
As for what I heard, writing books (especially on the IT-area) are not so profitable. So my guess is that the authors are okey with donation for a good cause.
nagoo
Even if that was the case, I'll bet both of the authors would have been happy to see their books go into a library. Neither of them are currently available in Carnegie Library (our largest in Pittsburgh).
bryanlarsen
You're probably right, but it's still wrong to do that without asking permission first.
salvadors
The author wouldn't get paid for a returned copy either. And publishers have very wide discretion over things like giving out freebie copies — in pretty much every standard publishing contract they control what happens to the books, not the author. An author is usually given a small amount of copies of the book (in O'Reilly's case 10) — beyond that what happens to all the rest is entirely in the publisher's hands.
lurker14
Good point... it's not even clear that donating the book is legal, unless O'Reilly wrote it off as a donation, and paid the royalty.
joaquin_win
I had a similar experience with Amazon, they refunded me the extra bluray remote for the PS3 and told me to donate it and even said that maybe my local library would want it (???).
Erwin
I've had the same experience with Amazon, when orders have gone wrong which I think is even more impressive given they're much larger and public. It shows is possible not to put short-term profits first -- some people excuse "evil" acts by companies as being required by shareholders.
radicalbyte
Amazon.co.uk are excellent, but Amazon.de are terrible. They have two listings for Quarriors - one is the German language version and the other English. We order the English version, and receive the German version. Their solution? They only stock the German version (their English listing was an error) so we had to send the German version back to them (partly at our cost).

Fine. The .co.uk do it better (you can keep the incorrect item). But returning is reasonable enough.

But they've not bothered to correct their listings despite several attempts to fix the problem.

dkersten
I also love Amazon. I once ordered a big bulky heavy hardback book and it didn't arrive, so I emailed them and they replied that if it doesn't arrive after the full 6 weeks that they say to allow has passed, email them again for a replacement. So about a week later, I emailed them again because it still hadn't arrived and hey said "no problem, replacement sent, let us know if the original ever arrives" (it didn't) - the next morning I had my book, they over-night couriered it to me from the US to Ireland. Probably cost more than the book, but I love buying stuff off them ever since.
gtirloni
Same happened to me while ordering some books from Amazon. When the original order arrived (after the 2nd order), I notified them and they just told me to keep it and try to donate to someone that needed the books or to a library.
ma2rten
As much as I share your admiration for O'Reilly, this is seems to be common practice. It's just more expensive to get the items back in inventory again than what they are actually worth.

See this thread: "Microsoft suggests customer donate extra X-Box they sent him." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3434404

babarock
Vaguely related, my mother in law wakes up one day and finds over 20 box of various cookies delivered to her apartment. She contacted the company to let them know of the mistake. They answered that it would cost too much to get them back in inventory.

I've been eating cookies for the past month now; what a happy mistake :)

dholowiski
This is extremely common, but it's all about how you handle it. When I was working for a company that shipped large products, I once told a customer to keep one and they were angry. We literally had to pay for someone to pick it up and take it to a electronics recycling depot.
yakshaving
I had a chance to see Tim O'Reilly speak at SXSW. He was giving a talk expressly about this: Creating more value than you can capture.

I took some notes on it if anyone wanted to check them out. http://storify.com/ashbhoopathy/create-more-value-than-you-c...

I guess the real amazing thing here is that Tim's generosity and ethos trickles down to his entire company and everything they do, including customer service.

I hope more technologists and organizations work the same way. It really just is better business.

eric_bullington
While we're praising O'Reilly, I should mention Safari Books Online. I'm sure you've all seen the promotions for the service in any O'Reilly book you purchase. I'm a subscriber, and it's a great service. I get electronic access to almost every book in the O'Reilly library, plus books from a number of other tech publishers, all for a little over $20 a month ($45 if you want to get rid of the 10 books/month limit).

It's been great for when I need to review some new technology (e.g., HTML5) but don't want or need to read an entire book about the topic in question. And it works great on my Kindle. Also -- and I'm sure O'Reilly is aware of this -- when I find something particularly good on Safaribooksoline, I sometimes end up purchasing the "deadtree" version of such books so I can have a physical book to read when I'm away from the computer/Kindle.

jasonlotito
I'll second this, and add, I've purchased more books because of seeing and reading them on Safari Books Online then I think I would have otherwise. The wealth of knowledge available with a subscription is amazing.
AjithAntony
The customer service for Safari is great too.

1) I got some promotional mail for a new subscriber deal, and I asked if they could give me that deal too. In response they gave me a better deal and a free month.

2) I used my tokens to download what I thought was the latest edition of a book(2005, pdf only), but discovered a month later that there was a newer one just released(6yrs newer, epub and .mobi formats). I asked if there was anything they could do, and they refunded my tokens so I could get the new one. (They also gave me 200 extra tokens which they removed after I notified them. If it was a smaller qty I would have just assumed they were being nice and kept them, but 200 was pretty clearly an error.)

Moto7451
When I worked at a store with a book section, it was often times cheaper just to eat the mistake than to hassle the customer and pay for return shipping (especially for the store's self published titles).

In fact its probably the cheapest way you can get customer loyalty. If you really take care of a customer, they'll often times stick with you even if you're slightly more expensive than their alternatives.

spxdcz
I had the fortune of visiting the O'Reilly offices in Sebastopol a few weeks ago (thanks Mary!), and this gracious attitude permeates the building. It may be one of the happiest, friendliest offices I've had the fortune of visiting. Plus, the Make offices are just incredibly cool - like a real-life Willy Wonka factory, with hundreds of cool half-built gadgets scattered around.
dfield
I used to work at O'Reilly and this is a perfect description!
mattdeboard
Why "used to"? Sounds like a cool place to work
bitmonk
Because they're in the middle of BFE. A beautiful wine country town far, far from everything.

[Note, I can't say for sure that's why the above person doesn't work there anymore, but it's likely. I interviewed several times and was astounded that they wanted me to relocate to the middle of nowhere for a 3 month contract.]

pasbesoin
OTOH, it's now a (limited) test market for sonic.net's uncapped 1 Gbps service. ;-)
Robelius
Wow. Thanks for letting me know they are based in Sebastopol. I live 15 minutes from the office. Might try and check it out.
kranner
+1 for O'Reilly Customer Service: when they released The Cathedral and The Bazaar (or was it Free as in Freedom?, can't say for sure), I wrote to them saying that it was funny that a book on free software wasn't itself free to read.

They shipped me a free copy and a Python T-shirt (to India). I was in my teens: life-long fan since.

zackattack
I bet that a lot of startups don't engage in that kind of customer service since it's uncertain whether they'll even be in business in five years.
gonzo
CATB isn't about Freedom, it's about the business model of Open Source
ppjim
I happened something similar to request a book on lulu.com. Asked for a book and after a month had not arrived (I had requested by mail). As I said they were going to send me another book. After 3 days the book arrived at my house and inform them by email to cancel the second book. They told me the book and was on his way, so I could donate if I wanted. :)
plasticsyntax
Actually I believe you aren't even legally obligated to return them, whether they pay for shipping or not. This is to prevent mail fraud (someone sending something and then invoicing for it).
kamjam
How is this preventing mail fraud if the OP says he inadvertently placed two order himself, not due to any fault of O'Reilly?
pasbesoin
He indicated they refunded him for the duplicate order that he mistakenly placed and that resulted in his being charged twice. Ergo, the second book wasn't a "freebie" until customer support, after processing a refund, also made it a freebie.
kamjam
Yes, I understand that, but plasticsyntax says he is not obliged to return the item. Sure he is obliged to return the item if he placed the order by mistake, and the duplicate is sent not due to an error on the part of O'Reilly.

I understand when the second book became a freebie but they could have asked for it to be returned at buyers expense...

pasbesoin
It's been a couple of days, but I think I was agreeing with you rather than countering.

As I see it, they could have said, "You ordered it. It's yours." Or they could have said, "Return the book, and we'll refund you (perhaps less shipping and handling, or some such)."

As it was, they said, "Here's your money back. Oh, and just keep the book." While it might indeed be easier and even cheaper for them to deal with the situation this way, it still makes for a nice customer experience. (And so, one could argue they might come out ahead in good will.)

P.S. So, I'm saying, perhaps they couldn't insist the book be returned. But they also didn't have to issue a refund, if the original order (as is described per the OP) was legitimately -- even if mistakenly -- placed. (I.e. he really did order it. It wasn't fraud. And the web site didn't mis-behave -- perhaps this remains an open question, depending upon the exact behavior and a determination of his culpability versus the site's.)

Anyway, more than enough typing about this...

kamjam
Haha, fair enough, think I just didn't get the gist of what you were trying to say!

It's a very nice sentiment indeed, and think it adds much more goodwill than the value of the book.

acomjean
I had a similar positive experience with a gift subscription to Make. The site woudn't take my credit card. so I tried again. Then again. Then again the next day, finally success.

Credit card shows 3 charges.... friend gets 3 copies of the magazine. They took care of it promptly. Sent me a couple make t-shirts.

Loyal O'Reilly cusomer/ oReilly radar reader.

http://radar.oreilly.com/

pasbesoin
I've had some concern about the quality of some more recent O'Reilly titles. Nonetheless, I've long felt and continue to feel and hope that their heart is in the right place.

I've seen this with authors who work very hard to make their primary mission communication and education, without "sweating the small stuff". And I've seen it at the top, with the way Tim has run and cared about the business.

It's worked, with me. Currently, I might be better off purchasing single titles than maintaining a Safari subscription. But it's nice to have instant access when I need it. And, damn it, someone has to promote a rational, useful model for ebooks. (Purchased copies feel more like my books, rather than a DRM-choked "license" (aka timebomb). With Safari token-based downloads, that even includes titles from other publishers', e.g. Addison Wesley.)

I now find some other publishers who likewise earn my respect and support (e.g. Pragmatic). But O'Reilly was one of the first to be there, especially in commercial digital publishing on a large scale.

bryanlarsen
Me too. I definitely don't use Safari enough to justify the cost. But the instant access and the rational useful model make so much sense that I really don't mind.
mattm
Here's a little tip. Safari Books actually has a 5-slot $9.99/month plan but you can only see it if you are already a member. So just sign up for the free trial and then change your membership over to it. I guess they offer it to people who sign up but then think $28/month is too much.
bsaali
Most of the public libraries, at least in California, have free access to Safari OnLine. If you have online library access, check it out :)
mrbill
"UNIX in a Nutshell" and "Essential System Administration" helped kick-start my career back in '95-96, and I'll always be grateful for that.

I was in their "O'Reilly Irregulars" group a few years ago, where folks volunteered to go inventory/catalog the ORA books at their local favorite bookstore, in exchange for a free book or two a month. I also ran banner ads for ORA on a couple of my websites. Marsee and the rest of the crew there are wonderful people to deal with.

I go out of my way to buy ebook versions of their titles directly now even though I could pirate them easily for free.

dredmorbius
UNIX Power Tools as well.

One of the best 'Nix cookbooks ever written.

franze
cool story

sadly i can never order another book from them, ever after i made the mistake of ordering and actual reading "Couch DB" http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596155902.do and "The Art of SEO" http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596518875.do front to cover (as i do with 80% of all books i purchase)

It seems like o'reilly is no longer in the book publishing business, but in the business of collecting blogsposts, printing them on paper selling them via their outstanding brand - without any quality assurance of any kind (other than choosing still outstanding cover pics.

additionally i made the mistake of ordering "Data Source Handbook" http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920018254.do via Amazon, paid my $29.99 and only realized in the moment i opened the box, that it actually has 42 pages and no real content. thanks to jeff b. i could return it to amazon.

its very sad what happened to o'reilly - there was a time you could pick-up/buy any oreilly book, read it from front to cover and then know more about the topic than 99.999% of all other humans on this planet - and you had a very good base of actually becoming a real expert on that topic, these days seem now very long ago.

dredmorbius
ORA was absolute go-to in the early to mid 1990s.

By the dot-com era, quality had slipped notably. There was so much new tech coming out, and so much demand for it, that random titles would come out, several of which were quite slipshod: poorly written, conterfactual, bad examples, etc.

The Beowulf clusters book was a particular low point.

I recall flipping through another via my standard algorithm: table of contents, introductory chapter, skim a few pages elsewhere, index, and I still had absolutely no idea what the technology in question.

The tagline "the last book on X you'll ever need" did stand out, though, and I can vouch for its truthfulness.

There still are good O'Reilly books out there, but they've long since been an automatic buy (and in fact little on paper, real or virtual, is any more).

avallark
Brilliant. I like what they do with the digital versions of the their DRM free books as well. I currently have atleast 9 books from them and you can download .epub/.mobi/.pdf all drm free! Love them.

And of course , big thanks for docbook!

chx
I do not buy computer books often. I have the Internet :) there are exceptions, of course. One such is SQL and Relational Theory. Not your "learn this in 24hrs" book, that's for sure. More my size, so to speak. Imagine my delight when on Jan 20 I find an email about how I get a 40-50% discount on the 2nd edition for buying the 1st. Nice. And no DRM. Superb nice. I have a strictly Linux environment from phone to servers and DRM'd eBooks are a pain to deal with.
snarkulosity
Bizarre; I had _exactly_ the same experience a couple weeks ago. (It was Programming Perl, 4th Edition, for what it's worth.)

I donated the spare book to my local library.