I thought about that when I read this in the blog post:
> ...and tried something that, looking back now, maybe I’m too old for
I don't know how old he is (not that old judging by the photo, but maybe it's an old photo?), and I don't know what he tried to do, but thinking like that is a slippery slope. Regular exercise is more important when growing older, not less - otherwise, you might become disabled because of your sedentary lifestyle rather than because of an injury.
Exactly my thoughts, people slow themselves down as they age and it's surely a combination of reasons, and you can do what you want. But use it or lose it rings true.
When you break your collarbone, the majority of your recovery is actually healing the joints and muscles that atrophied while you were in a sling (exceptions for surgery etc.) The bone takes care of itself, but your shoulder and arms freeze up and wither away alarmingly fast.
If you have a bad joint and the pain causes you to reduce movement, it's very worthwhile to see a physio and keep the joints moving while it heals, to avoid further damage.
I think you assume way too much out of this: The way I usually hear this expression is like "I have tried to do a backflip, failed and broke my arm", or so. So the blog writer likely did something way out of his league, like a fancy trick, and it is not a fair assumption to think that he lives such a sedentary lifestyle that any kind of movement would cause him harm, or even thinks that way. One can be very sporty, yet do some stupid one-off movement that will cause harm.
And it's amazing how long these things can take to recover once you're in your 30s. I got patella tendinitis in both my knees, after a decade of sedentary indolence, followed by an extreme reentry into exercise. It took nearly a whole year to get my knees right.
At the end of May, I started suffering from Achilles tendonitis in one of my feet. Because I was exercising too vigorously too early in the morning while my body was not properly warmed up. Never a problem when I was younger.
It has been a long, slow recovery. With a few relapses into tightness because I tried to walk too fast or carry too much weight. Even now, almost 3 months later, I can just glimpse the light at the end of the tunnel.
I definitely took my health and my able-ness for granted when I was younger. Don't know how to teach my kids not to do the same.
Holy shit, that's what I have! Thank you for naming the thing, now I can figure out what to do about it. (For me, it was biking strenuously without stretching, apparently.)
zomglings: what have you done to help your ankle(s) recover?
Last Monday, I think tightened a tendon on the front part of my right foot because I had tried to walk too fast the previous evening. Thankfully, understanding the principles of stretching and icing helped me recover from that in 2 days (it wasn't as serious as the Achilles tendon tightening).
Just take it slow and give yourself time to heal. The good news is that this isn't chronic (what the physiotherapist told me). After you heal, just take care to be stretched and warmed up before putting repetitive stress on your tendons.
Edit: When you are injured, the rest of your body has to put itself under extra stress when you move to offset the lack of mobility that the tendonitis causes. So you increase the probability of other injuries (in my case, the tightening of other tendons). Try to be super careful and super patient.
If your tendonitis bothers you in the future, you can get a prp injection which does wonders for the healing process.Tendons are funny and don’t really heal back as well as they were before. Putting your own blood back in let’s them get the blood flow they need to heal better.
Achilles tendonitis is very popular side effect of flouroquinolone antibiotics(cipro, avelox, levaquin and others). The symptoms can show up to 12 months after last dose.
There are many other side effects. If this applies to you, you should never take this drug again.
Same. at twenty something i sprained my ankle playing basketball. it's unbelievable how hard concrete sidewalks feel to a tender recovering bag of flesh. i sought out dirt and grass for relief. And getting up and down stairs hugging the rail, the world in slow motion as the youth rushed by.
i'm grateful that such a small experience helped me see so much.
My dad went from someone I can chat with every day about something or build something together to partially disabled due to first stroke and now unable to communicate fully or easily due to the second stroke at 65.
He lost his job and sadly there are few things to help with those who are unable to communicate.
That sucks. If it happened recently, though, don't completely lose hope. My mother-in-law had a stroke with a poor prognosis, and years later she's fully recovered and teaches piano!
One of the best things I ever did was get strong through a basic barbell training program called Starting Strength.
Squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench press, chinups, eat, sleep. It really is that easy.
Highly recommend it for anyone interested.
1. Any back pain I had disappeared completely.
2. When I have to lift something awkward (eg, furniture), I don't injure myself. If you can deadlift 200KG, awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.
3. It is really really handy being able to move heavy things.
4. Basically everything else improves. Going for a tough hike uphill? Your legs will be a lot less sore if you can squat 150KG. Need to hold your screaming baby for 40 minutes? Easy!
I'm 63 and have to stay completely away from cheese or the arthritis in my left knee gets so bad I cannot operate the clutch in an manual-transmission car without doing what feels like permanent damage to the knee.
I used Starting Strength to learn how to squat roughly 12 years ago, do squats regularly and have never injured myself even temporarily doing squats although I use much less weight than grandparent does.
What sort of range of motion are you using? Obviously consulting a physio/exercise physiologist may be helpful, but you may have less pain if you squat to just below parallel. Or other squat variants may be better for you, e.g. front squats (or zombie squats), box squats. Slant board squats are also very good. You could also look at pin squats as it deloads the weight from your body at a very precise depth so no risk of going too deep with the weight and causing pain
Check out "knees over toes guy", he has a wealth of good free information on knee recovery.
I'm 30 and I squat pain free twice per week despite 3 knee dislocations. Good luck friend
How are you squatting? Technique is really important. I recommend watching some videos by Mark Rippetoe [1], and also filming your squats to review them. The low-bar back squat is a hip-dominant exercise, and when done properly should not put undue stress on the knees. [2]
I myself had _terrible_ knee pain from squatting. Then my knee started randomly buckling when I would walk.
So I started filming myself. I also used TUBOW [3] to figure out that my knees were drifting far too forward. I corrected my technique accordingly, and started engaging the hips properly. My knee pain went away and I've been pain-free ever since.
- [1] Learn to Squat, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoikoUEI8U
- [2] Squats and Your Knees, https://startingstrength.com/article/squats-and-your-knees
- [3] Using the TUBOW with Mark Rippetoe, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P_w6dpDC2I
My knee pain improves when I squat. For context, my legs are different lengths, and I've had a left medial meniscectomy in the shorter leg. I'm in my late twenties, and the pain is bilateral.
This is why god invented physical therapists! Had minor knee pain a couple years ago, saw doctor for X-rays just as sanity check, and he referred me to a physical therapist. Got a knee strengthening routine, followed it, and all was good after a month or two.
There might be several reasons for this, poor technique and insufficient time for adaptation are probably the most common ones. Though previous injury is certainly another possibility. In general, squats are good for your knees, and will protect your knees from injury. Not only will they strengthen the structures of and around the knees, they will also (literally) lubricate the joints.
It takes time to develop a good squat. Many people seem to be limited by their range of motion, especially in the ankles, at least to start off with.
I'm 40, I've had two knee surgeries, and have genetically terrible knees. Squatting incorrectly made them hurt, but I went to see a sports PT and he taught me how to squat correctly (I was overloading my quads and not using my posterior chain like...at all - a proper low-bar squat with the glutes engaged was a total gamechanger), and not only did it fix my knee pain in squats, it fixed my knee pain in general. I went from being functionally crippled in my 20s to competing as an amateur powerlifter and training Brazilian jiujitsu in my late 30s, and I absolutely attribute the foundation of that to squatting and deadlifting.
In my personal experience, as a now more seasoned lifter, most people have knee pain in squats because they load the quads and arrest the squat early with the quads rather than hitting full depth. Once your hip crease is below the top of your kneecap, your quads are no longer bearing the load! If you're stopping the lift prior to that, then you're applying a ton of torque to the knee directly with the quad, rather than letting the much more robust posterior chain absorb the energy of the descent.
If you haven't tried squatting low-bar, you might give it a go - it makes it much easier to move with the posterior chain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo is my single favorite squat video on the internet. Lots of really good info in it.
But, if you don't see improvement, I highly recommend seeing someone who can diagnose and correct how you move.
I'm in my early 40s and have been squatting for ~20yrs. I've just started to notice a bit of a twinge in my knees when squatting, particularly if I'm getting close to my 1RM. Knee straps seem to alleviate it, though I'm not particularly keen on using them. I think I likely need to work a bit more on stability and flexibility, both of which are diminishing faster than raw strength.
I had the same. In my late 30's even kneeling hurt.
That goes away once the muscles gain strength.
I've had a personal trainer for years now and in my early 40s I can squat merrily with no pain. Also my neck and back pain have vanished, along with headaches I used to get that would start around the back of my neck and move over my head.
Strength training really is amazing. My only regret is 20 years as an adult not doing it.
My wife taking every excuse to touch my leg muscles is just an added bonus!
How did you strengthen them in that scenario? We may be a little different as I've had surgery in both knees(ACL and MCL). I'm interested in doing leg work, but physically can't squat...at least yet.
I started by holding onto a stair bannister and squatting slooowly until I could actually get the full range of motion, then unsupported air squats, then I moved to an empty barbell. If you can't go straight to a barbell, or you have back/spine issues, belt squats are a great way to increase your workload as your capacity increases.
With those surgeries, starting under the supervision of a PT is a great idea, though. They'll know how to build you up safely.
Knee pain can be from a variety of causes, some of which have to do with the actual joint and some of which don't. For example, medial knee pain can be, to name two options, an MCL tear or just an inflammation of the bursal sac. I had the latter when getting back into exercise after a long break (I'm now 40), and was really worried I had busted my knees. In the end, switching to front squats for a bit and working on mobility as well as paying attention to posture when lifting helped with it.
Point being, if you don't know what's causing your knee pain, it's probably a good idea to figure it out first, then think about what could help.
As someone who was not born 100% able, I have been lifting for 10+ years and I attribute my ongoing robustness to it. I wouldn't be doing half the stuff I do without strength conditioning providing such a robust foundation.
Injury defence is a benefit of lifting that is undersold I think. By strengthening all the muscles that support your movement, and limbering up connective tissues you are much less likely to get injured in general life like you said.
Starting Strength is fine for a beginner. It's not an optimal program, but it's simple, easy to understand, and built on good foundational principles. As an on-ramp into resistance training, it's better than a complex program that'll scare beginners off or burn them out.
It still doesn't change the fact that a suboptimal program which keeps beginners engaged and moving forward is infinitely superior to a more complex one that they fall off of.
It does actually. The program is so poor that beginners might not even see enough progress that they're put off from working out, because "what's the point if I've been at it for a month or three and still don't have any gains?" That's why it's better to actually pick a good program, one that shows consistent gains as motivation rather than plateauing as a demotivational force.
Other recommended programs like 5/3/1 are not "more complex," that's a false dichotomy. They're just as simple but with different sets of exercises.
This is a very silly argument to be made against a lifting program which has verifiably moved countless people off the couch and into resistance training. The reason people recommend Starting Strength is because it's what successfully got them into lifting.
I train 5/3/1 now, I have for years, I love it, and I absolutely do not recommend it to beginners. I've tried. Their eyes glaze over when you start talking about "training maxes" and "periodization". They get confused and lose whatever sliver of motivation they had. Save the optimization for when they're bought in. Any beginner is gonna make progress on essentially any structured program just due to neuroadaptation. Premature optimization is the root of all evil.
I did SS too in the beginning. I didn't see much progress and that has also been verifiably the case for others too, if you are using anecdotes as your verification process. That SS works is despite its quality, not because of it. And so what? Should we not try to improve programs just because they work in some cases? We don't have to use 5/3/1 then, we can use even the basic beginner routine as recommended on r/fitness, it is pretty good while discarding the problems of SS.
But you're still lifting, presumably. That sounds like success to me.
I tried to start lifting multiple times. SL 5x5 is what actually made it click. Now that I know what I'm doing, I could write volumes on its flaws, but what I needed wasn't a technically optimized program, but one which gave me a clear goal for each workout and an easy way to see what the path forward looked like.
As the reddit beginner program correctly notes:
> The primary goal is to be a simple, easy to follow routine that will help beginners get into the gym, start training with the standard barbell lifts, and build a habit of going to the gym consistently. Consistency over time is the biggest point of failure in making progress, and the aim is to lower the barrier as far as possible to starting and staying consistent.
The point of a beginner program really isn't the volume moved or optimizing the particular split, but to give the beginner a structure on which to build routine and learn good habits. It helps no one to crap on Starting Strength, when it has an established history of achieving exactly that goal. Offering things like the reddit program as a potentially superior alternative is fine to the eager newbie, but telling people that Starting Strength is a bad way to start is just counterproductive.
My advice to every new lifter is that the best program for them is the one that gets them going back to the gym consistently, and I'll continue to stand behind that. It's not SS for everyone - and that's fine. But it is SS for a lot of people, and that's also fine.
Have you even done SS or read the book, actually end to end?
Comparing 5/3/1 or a reddit post to SS indicates a complete lack of familiarity.
You can use dismissive like survivorship bias all you’d like, but end do the day Rip knows and runs a tier 1 program to get in life shape. It’s very difficult to read SS and execute it as designed and not come to that conclusion.
This is survivor bias; SS keeps some beginners engaged but there's no count of those who drop off or never start it. I was in the latter group; it was the first program recommended to me, but I was leery of it because I don't have medical insurance and was skeptical about the feasibility of the suggestions based on what I knew about my own body, so I just did nothing about it. When I did start lifting, I started out with light weights and spent months figuring out a program while getting a kinetic understanding of the different muscle groups and how they worked together, spamming volume for a while and gradually adding more weight.
I don't mean that SS is a bad program, it works for lots of people and it's very accessible. But I also think it's way oversold and not magic.
It's definitely not magic, but it's on the 80 side of the 80/20 split, IMO.
It isn't the right starter program for everyone, but then, nothing is. The best program for the beginner is whichever one keeps you consistently showing up and moving forward.
It is part of r/Fitness, a very reputable resource for fitness as many top weightlifters are there too. The article addresses why it's not a good program and why beginner programs are generally not well designed: https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...
Sure, but at that point even going for a run is better than Netflix and burgers. Don't strawman the argument, just because SS is ostensibly better doesn't mean it's actually good.
I think they are referring to fitness-related advice on Reddit, but, yes, there are a number of quite high quality subreddits out there among the not so great ones.
do you have a phd in history to judge that?
I said I wouldn't trust, I'm sure there is some good resources but they are mixed with bad ones, I just know that r/philosophy is a terrible resource for anyone studying philosophy
Just add sledgehammer workout to the routine. It's the foundation of all combat sports. You have your core strength, upper body strength, arm strength well trained.
* I've done both BBR and SS. I prefer BBR but they're both fine places to start. They both basically have you cycle through the staple compound lifts and if you're not already trained this is the best thing you can do for your body. The health benefits of simply doing each compound lift at least once a week plus eating a ton of protein cannot be overstated, they are life changing.
* I'll editorialize here but I feel both BBR and SS are designed for younger, fitter, more hardcore "beginners" than me, especially SS. I was a 40+, out of shape desk jockey and the cadence at which they want you to increase weight was too much for me. Also with these big lifts you NEED to get the technique right or you WILL hurt yourself.
What would you recommend to someone older to start with? I've done SS in my late 20s but I do feel like I'd like to try something new as I get closer to 40 and considering some exercise.
Context, I wfh, am overweight and extremely sedentary. At the moment have been purely working on my diet but exercising is next.
Honestly you should start again with starting strength or a beginner program like it if you haven't been actively training in the last few years. Go slow, start with the bar, let the increases happen until you hit a wall where you need to reassess. Listen to your body. Once you're back to "intermediate", i.e. 6 months to a year of reasonably consistent training, you can transition to a different program or just maintain at 2x a week if you like where you've ended up.
That's in addition to very gradually adding some sort of cardio like walks around the block. Being sedentary is going to be more of a struggle to overcome than strength - you will find that the strength you used to have will come back quickly when you start training again, but as a guy in the exact same boat, the cardiovascular side is the tough part. I am getting strong again really quickly but I am getting winded half way through a strength workout, let alone actually trying to jog.
I wouldn't recommend any changes to it, other than taking it easy if you need to.
The biggest struggle I had when I was totally out of shape was just how tough even a light workout was. It's fine to take it easy and not increase the weights you're lifting aggressively, for instance. Or even to go to the gym twice a week instead of three times. If it's not an easy and fun part of your life you'll fall off the wagon.
Basically you can be a physical wreck at 40, to a degree that a 23 year old guy can't even comprehend. All simply because you didn't exercise.
Just keep showing up regularly, doing the compound lifts SAFELY but heavy enough to tire out your muscles, and eating your protein (100g+ daily, there are formulas to calculate it precisely).
It might take a little longer for us older sedentary guys but everything will come together.
A good personal trainer (or physical therapist if you start hitting issues?) is absolutely worth it if you can get one, one advantage we older guys have is we're more likely to have the spare cash for this.
For my job, I was fit and strong until 28, COVID gym closures and a career change later into wfh tech I was 31 and out of shape and verging on unpleasantly so. I was worried if I could get back into shape easily, but did the below. Only hard part was the discipline tbh, as I started at very low weights/just the bar in some cases.
If you’re familiar with SS, what worked for me was a modified version. I threw out the linear progression and squat 3x times a week goals, and focused on lifting 3x a week come hell or high water and hit 5+ increases if I was able. 30-60 days of that, you’re back at an easy point to decide to get “really fit” or just stay active.
Day 1: squat 3x5, DL 3x10, lunges (the second week, DL 1x5, squat 3x10)
Day 2: bench 3x5, press 3x10, push-ups (swap bench and press same as above week 2)
Day 3: row 3x5, pull-ups, arms/w-e else.
I’m nowhere near when I was strong but my numbers make
Me feel ok about things now, as I know I’m now out of the dangerzone of out of shape AF
I know reddit loves 5/3/1 and pretends that nothing else exists. Great example of the reddit echo chamber for something that isn't a political topic.
5x5 program got my bench to 275 when I was younger. I think it's fine.
Really after years of trying all these systems the only that will work for sure is getting in the gym consistently and lifting heavy. Everything else is mostly a distraction. Like min/maxing in wow
Yes I have gone through these, started with SS, saw basically no progress, then moved to 5/3/1 and did some other routines over the past several years. At my peak before a recent injury I was at 225 bench, 325 deadlifting and 275 squat.
If you have never seen anyone in your gym bench 2 plates...well...I am not sure what to say to you. Maybe find a different gym?
The person I was responding to is talking about SS, why 5/3/1 is more appropriate, and things of that nature.
If he MAXED out at a 225 bench, a 325 deadlift and a 275 squat, he has no business really talking about this sort of stuff. You don't even need a structured program to hit those numbers...you just need to do it.
Why would I find a different gym just because people around me aren't lifting as much as you want them to be? I'm a 28 year old man and I can only bench 35kg (~77lbs) so why would I want to be around a bunch of people lifting 100kg+?
> If he MAXED out at a 225 bench, a 325 deadlift and a 275 squat, he has no business really talking about this sort of stuff. You don't even need a structured program to hit those numbers...you just need to do it.
I think you have a severely skewed idea of what it is common to lift.
225 is about the low end of taking lifting seriously as a hobby. Hes right, you can get to those lifts without much structure. just eating right, and being consistent for a couple years will get you there without trying to optimize beginner programs.
Your view of what can be done in the gym is distorted by the gym you are in.
Why should I take lifting seriously as a hobby? What has lifting as a hobby got to do with anything? I don’t want to lift as a hobby if it means I’m doing it wrong until 100kg
Ultimately, while I never reached the 200 kg / 440 lb he mentions on the deadlift I got to: (in lbs)
Back Squat 275 2 rm
Front Squat 225 2 rm
Deadlift 375 2 rm
Bench 175 5x5
OHP 135 5x5
C&J 125 1x5
Snatch 105 1x5
With my primary program being SS and then SS like (do the set 5x5 or appropriate at the work weight, advance by appropriate increment). That's the rough master plan at least.
Not advising. Merely sharing my experience. Simplicity of adherence maximized adherence. Visible progress increased adherence.
Arguments there are bullshit - talking about stuff that's completely irrelevant to beginners to make things sound complicated - personal fitness trainer playbook.
If you're a couch potato dev who sits all day and does no physical activity - just doing random shit with your bodyweight or empty bar will get you sore for the first month.
Overloading yourself with pointless movements that are meant to target specific muscle groups is completely irrelevant for the first year. Go to gym - find heavy stuff you can pick up - try not to do anything stupid.
SS is great because it has a low number of movements, volume is irrelevant when you get sore from a barbell squat, learning how to lift is deceptively complicated (breathing/bracing/muscle activation).
The article keeps straw-manning "longterm" this and that - SS is your first year in the gym (or less). By the time you're trough with it, unless you're totally oblivious, you'll pick up on other stuff when you have the time. And you'll have a decent intuition of how to lift, understand recovery implications, consistency in training, and a decent base strength. It's a great base to get you started and have an achievable progression framework that doesn't require much tutoring or time.
I've seen plenty of people get from 0 to nice lifting strength in ~1 year by doing SS. The only thing that's relevant is consistency - if you come in 2-3x a week and do something difficult for an hour for a year - you will see results - it can be total fucking around - you will still get results. It's good to start with SS type exercises because those well defined movements target your entire body, and if you learn to execute them correctly you reduce your chance of injury.
TL;DR - for any newbie out there that's in bad shape and looking to start gym - save yourself time and avoid "optimal muscle development" crowd. None of those arguments apply to you and are completely irrelevant. Don't trust me ? Go to the gym and do 5x5 with an empty bar and see if you're sore after the workout.
I read the critique. It's basically "you don't do enough volume for certain exercises", "you'll end up doing too many squatting and looking funny", "their approach to stall isn't optimal".
It sounds like a www.bodybuilding.com forum rant. Someone arguing why micronized whey is superior to non-micronized. It's ultra-optimization.
If you're someone looking to get started, you're looking to get started, not optimize for a bodybuilding competition. If you like SS, and it gets you actually lifting, then it's good.
If you really get into it, then great! You can continue to refine what you do, read up on all the arguments, try different things. But if you just want a workout that makes you stronger that you can keep doing, then SS works fine.
It reminds me a bit of audio enthusiasts. Somebody wants an amplifier recommendation for a certain budget and people jump in telling them "you'll regret going solid state, the purity of tube amps can't be beat" and the person is like "I just want an amplifier so my kids can watch Disney in surround sound".
And the really good thing about SS is the focus on proper technique. It's more important than how much you lift.
I 100% agree. You mention some pretty scary KG numbers there though (but we’ll done)! I just wanted to mention to readers that even squatting a ‘measly’ 50KG or deadlifting 30KG can immensely help with back pain and the physical challenges everyday life throws at you.
> I just wanted to mention to readers that even squatting a ‘measly’ 50KG or deadlifting 30KG
Yes -- this is really important to contextualize.
Barbell resistance training is actually two things:
1) A method of exercise that has a variety of well-quantified health benefits including improvements in strength, bone density, and connective tissue. More muscle also means you can eat more without getting fat.
2) A competitive strength sport (generally called powerlifting; weightlifting usually refers to the explosive overhead lifts seen at the Olympics).
Your strength goals can, and should, depend entirely on your objectives. If you're aiming to compete, a 150KG squat and 200KG deadlift would put you around the median in the lowest male weight classes.
It's also relative to your body weight. A 150 kg squat for someone who weighs 118 kg (i.e. me) is not that impressive. Whereas an 80 kg squat if you weigh 80 kg is extremely impressive. You should be aiming to lift 1x-1.5x your body weight, over time.
Yeah i thought if you look at the top performers it actually gets harder if you are heavy to keep with lighter performers in terms of multiplier. The lighter performers win the multiplier game.
These numbers seem off? Everywhere I look online even the numbers for untrained men are higher than that. I just came back to the gym, am the weakest person there, slightly weaker than 'untrained' numbers on the internet and I can do more.
Numbers are really personal. At 60kg I found it really easy to get strong enough to deadlift even 120kg, cited as between intermediate and advanced on that table, despite in no way being an even intermediate lifter. More like novice at best.
Relative difficulty of different lifts also varies. I found squats and deadlifts extremely difficult, to the point that I reached 1x bodyweight bench press before 1x bodyweight squat.
That link lists the averages among the 21,000 users of StrengthLog. I'm sure the average normal human who doesn't use a weight training logging app is way lower.
For example the beginner on there is 76kg. I think it'd be a bad idea for a guy who's 40 years old, untrained and out of shape to rock up and deadlift 50kg, even just for one rep. He wouldn't know what to expect, he'd get the form wrong, he'd probably hurt his back. People who aren't trained should start with the bar, sometimes they're better off starting with even less than the bar and that is fine!
I believe beginner here is not untrained. There were a few links with different categories (all above the 30kg deadlift, 50kg squat for the lowest one). I only shared the first one in my comment.
30kg DL is 5kg on each side of a 20kg bar which is less than I've lifted my very first time and I was pretty unfit and I'm sure the vast majority of untrained people can lift that. Hell, that's easier than bar-only bench press, which most people can also easily do on their first try.
I am not clear on what conclusions we are discussing exactly.
* 20kg-30kg makes sense for an untrained person's first lift, it sounds like we agree. With DL you need some plates on the bar to get the right height so 5kg bumper plates or something is common.
* All of this is still way below the numbers even for beginners on the site you linked, which again I stress, is a self-selected group of people who were hardcore enough to opt into a performance tracking app of some kind, this is way different from the general population.
* I actually don't agree that the vast majority of people could just bust out, let's say, 10 reps at 30kg of any lift. Women and older men who have never lifted? I really doubt it. A year ago it was hard for me to do 10 body weight squats, no bar no nothing, and most of my middle aged friends who have never exercised are probably still in the same boat. 40% of the US is obese... I think this perspective is biased basically towards young men (lets say under 40).
As someone who came very late to this from an unfit childhood: annoyingly, they're right. I started lifting at _40_, and after a couple of years I can deadlift 100kg vs my own weight of 90kg. All the tables of "expected" lifting values are laughably high and clearly compiled on enthusiastic 20 year olds. But it's been very helpful for my energy levels and to balance against my sedentary job.
For me, bearing in mind all this injury discussion, I've focused on form 100%. When doing free weight exercises, this forces a whole bunch of other, secondary, "stabilization" muscles to some work. It's those, especially if they end up spending all day "locked" because of your posture, which can produce a lot of the minor pains of age, so give them a workout.
I am doing weight training for fatigue. The idea is 55%, 65%, 75%, 85% weeks. The % is perceived effort. That might be bench pressing just the bar sometimes. And I go twice a week, and do about 7 different exercises. It is not "perfect" but it is f'ing consistent. Knowing there is a 55% week coming up, and it is OK and that it is perceived effort so you can lower weights if you feel shit, makes this very stick-to-able.
A similar vein but muuuuch simpler for anybody who isn't up for weights.
Each day, before anything else:
1. 3 mins stretching
2. 20 (real) situps (3 mins)
3. 10 pushups (2 mins)
I actually usually do a good bit more exercise more than this, but this is my minimum day starting routine, no matter where I am, or what I'm doing. It takes less than 10 minutes and keeps a bare minimum of strength in your lower back and arms. The lower back part is key for people who work in chairs all day. You can do a lot of types of exercise and still not maintain those lower back muscles which are so key to ensure your lumbar is protected.
Got 5min? Try this, it's much more complete*, engaging the back a lot.
Title is a catchy "burn belly fat" but it's more like core training + cardio. It looks scary but anyone (without a precluding condition) can do it.
It's only HIIT if you make it so, the key is to pace yourself according to your level, going slow if needed so as to complete each of the 30s.
If you can't do the full range, do a partial range, but do that range with proper form so as not to hurt yourself, don't force through it, it'll get better over time.
Aim for consistency, not short term record.
Side note: lubricate joints before (do rotations and flexing), stretch after exercise: stretching before increases risk of injury. If you really want to stretch before, do dynamic stretching, not static.
* doing only sit-ups and push-ups strengthens frontside massively, so front-back is not balanced, further increasing the forward arching position (starting with nerd neck) induced by long term sitting. Front training is important for all-day sitters as these muscles (which should be engaged all along the day but are not) atrophy, but overtraining front (vs back) amplifies the issue.
I think that is missing the point a bit; regardless of how healthy a lifestyle you live you still will end up suffering from some kind of disability. Perhaps of a cause completely outside your control (stroke, heart problem, accident).
Not to say that strength training isn't good for you of course. But it may not actually prepare you for things to come (unlike having a healthy family life, an identity outside work and physical fitness).
Its not a binary thing. On my dad's side, there is a history of hip issues, sciatica, upper back and shoulder mobility issues.
One of his siblings is in his early 60's, retired, and can only be described as "active". He's not powerlifting or anything like that but gym, cycling, gardening, every day or other day. He's on his second hip, soon to be third.
His other sibling is late 50's, also on their second hip about to get their third. They're limited to 2-300 yards of walking, can't really stand unaided for long periods of time, struggle with their sleep, etc etc.
The easiest comparison is that the older one is, and always has been more active. Sure it's complicated, sure you can't prepare for an unexpected diagnosis, but I'd you're 60 with no active health scares, your quality of life is going to be dictated by how much you looked after yourself, not just luck.
just because at some point you might (or I guess you and the author are arguing will) get injured doesn't mean strengthening yourself is invalid. in fact healthier and in better shape you are the less likely you are to suffer debilitating injury.
tweaking my strong knee that is used to squatting heavy weights and otherwise supporting active lifting is way different than my father tweaking he's knee with artificial joint.
at least for me the problem is lettings things get worse. I should learn to seek help/corrective action right away, but I always just want to "see if I can ride it out" which can then turn into months of unnecessary suffering with long lasting issues. pre-emptively starting resistance training is very beneficial for most people.
Strengthening yourself is beside the point. I don't think anyone is saying that that strength training is invalid. You're trying to debate a point that no one is disagreeing with.
Lifting weights isn't going to do much to prevent your hearing going bad, or eyes degrading and needing corrective lenses, or not being able to move otherwise you'll wake the newly born baby who's finally gotten to sleep.
This article is a rebuttal against the myth that "accessibility" is for "other people", that "disabled" and "abled" are two different camps, and accessibility tech is only something used by completely blind people in wheelchairs, which will never happen to me. We're all just temporarily abled. Even throughout the day we go through a range of ability with our physical body - even if it's just needing to respond to a phone while cooking and your hands are covered in raw chicken.
"We all die" yes, yes, but you can die gracefully or pitifully.
Lifting weights won't help you with your eyes or ears, but being in better physical health translates to better mental health, which translates to better ability to cope with all limitations.
People who just sit still as they age deteriorate incredibly fast in more ways than one.
I guess this article can be eye opening for anyone who has lived in a bubble without them, their relatives, or friends suffering from any issues, but that has to be exceedingly rare.
You can prepare for injuries. You can strengthen your body and joints to prevent physical injuries, you can keep active mind to prevent mental issues, you can wear PPE to protect from most sudden sight and hearing losses. You should wear gloves while handling raw meats, it is more hygienic and makes cleaning a lot faster and more pleasant.
Eating a good meal today doesn’t prevent you from going hungry 6 months from now.
Of course you know how to put food in your mouth and eat, but do you understand how to deal with the physical/emotional/mental challenges of living as a person who’s without enough food?
> Eating a good meal today doesn’t prevent you from going hungry 6 months from now.
Sure it does. Angus Barbieri fasted for 382 days successfully.
In the same vein, working on one's body strengthens future potential disabilities, but not all, such as sight and hearing. However, most people who become disabled later in life begin to have orthopedic injuries rather than completely losing sight and hearing, which of course they lose but not to the same extent as getting arthritis etc. So the point of strengthening one's body is still valid.
I read the article. And guess what, I also injured a limb recently so not only have I read the article, I have and currently am experiencing the same issues the author is experiencing. Even still, I can recognize that the points made in the article and the points made by those you're replying to are not incompatible, so they're not "still missing the point," they're adding on to it.
>Of course you know how to put food in your mouth and eat, but do you understand how to deal with the physical/emotional/mental challenges of living as a person who’s without enough food?
I think we are so far ideologically from each other that we can't even communicate. I can not follow this logic at all.
I really enjoyed the Starting Strength program (I was going to abbreviate it at first, but then realized that sounds a bit sketchy out of context), and I noticed the benefits too. The only reason I quit a few years ago is because of my concerns about the strain it puts on the cardiovascular system. Especially for someone already doing mostly desk work, I wonder how healthy it really is.
I still do resistance training, but with higher reps and less weight. Not incrementally increasing the weight as SS prescribes.
1,2,3 are intermediate level though. After a year I cam do 6 reps of 1, 0 reps of 2, probably 15 of 3 and 90s bridge. But a sedate person might enjoy a gym better or TRX maybe to assist as these are hard for average Joe.
If you are a beginner and want to start with calisthenics, I recommend the Hybrid Routine[1]. It has really nice progressions for all exercised mentioned above (and it's free!)
Keeping strength up, especially in old age, is crucial.
My father was admitted to hospital for something, and spent a few weeks on the ward. When he was released he was super frail and had to use a walker. Losing strength is easy, getting it back (especially in your 80's) is damn hard.
I powerlifed for years, with a truly excellent coach for much of that time. For what it was worth, she was Starting Strength certified and a successful international masters competitor. She fixed a subtle problem with my deadlift using nothing but the wrinkles on my T-shirt; my recovery improved dramatically.
At 40, I was stronger than I was as a high school wrestler. I loved lifting. I remember casually picking up a piece of equipment that took two burly guys to lift and jumping down from a pickup with it.
But over the course of several years, I picked up several small but persistent injuries lifting. Two can be worked around. One makes it very hard to squat for more than a few weeks of training. None of the injuries, fortunately, affects me noticeably in daily life. But I'll never wide-grip bench press again, either.
When I was coming to terms with these injuries, I had a long talk with the oldest natty lifters in my gym. The powerlifers were all dealing with various chronic injuries. (Seriously, Rippetoe has published a bit of his medical history. He's a mess of injuries.)
But you know who was still lifting in their 60s and even 70s, injury-free for decades at a stretch? The natty bodybuilders. One of the oldest looked over at me one day, and said, "You know, I don't like the risk/reward on heavy squats. You do them flawlessly for years, and then one day, a group of muscle fibers decides to misfire for a moment when you're under the bar."
So, enjoy Starting Strength, or whatever other beginner program Reddit likes this year. And the two Starting Strength certified coaches I've known were excellent. Good technique is absolutely worth it. But once you've gotten those sweet beginner gains, talk to the old lifters, and think long and hard about where you want to go next. Because nothing is as important as remaining injury-free. And every older powerlifter I met was dealing with chronic injuries.
Once gains get difficult, think about what you really want out of lifting.
Don't exceed your recovery resources. Anecdotal reports are not helpful when determining injury risk.
Overall injury incidence in strength sports is very low. But if you do it to compete, maybe there is an argument to be made that pushing the limits increases it.
Overall though, the much greater risk is to not train. Whether you do barbell movements or machines is not a determinant of of health outcomes, as far as we know.
I would not put stock in anecdote without some numbers on injuries among non-competing powerlifters.
You can either choose to lift until you find a sweet spot of strength you are content with and not push past it, avoiding injury from ever-heavier lifts. Or you'll want to progress slower when you are at intermediate-advanced level, lifting is pretty safe as a sport if you do it with proper form until you get to the upper boundaries.
Rest well, eat enough, don't push it when something is feeling a "little weird" with some muscle. My worst injury as a beginner 10+ years ago was to finish a deadlift routine after feeling a muscle slightly pulled after the first rep, I had a bad lower back pain for weeks that left me uncomfortable doing anything: laying down, sitting, walking, etc.
If you don't know any bodybuilders I'd recommend getting a good coach on your beginner phase to fix your form, you don't need to keep a coach after you learn the basics, and bad form is the #1 source of injuries at lowest levels. Starting Strength is a decent beginner routine but over time you'll want to add some auxiliary exercises to work smaller muscles, in my routine I like to start the training session with big lifts (deadlift, squat, standing barbell rows, chin ups/pull ups, bench press, and overhead presses) and after those I follow with auxiliary movements (face pulls, dumbbell presses/curls, calves, etc.).
I chose to not push myself past a level I got comfortable with, never tried a deadlift heavier than 220kg, my squats hover between 130-140kg, bench press around 80kg, military press around 55-60kg. I feel strong enough and been injury-free for years, it's a good maintenance level and my goal with lifting has always to just keep mobility in older age, not to keep growing muscles/strength as far as I could push.
For me it was when I start noticing that the bad days where I'd fail my intended lift happened more often than the days I progressed.
An example, when I was trying to push my bench press over 87,5kg I was going with 1-2 sets of warm-up (~8-10x 70kg then adding 5kg to the 2nd warm up), followed by: 1 set of 5x85kg, 5x87,5kg and trying to go 3x90kg but noticed I was failing the 3x90kg set for 4+ weeks in a row, I kinda knew it was going to take more effort and a different approach than just my very basic way to increase load, I was happy with lifting 87,5kg on the bench and just stopped trying to push it further.
Age has definitely affected my recovery time, stamina, etc. but because I've been lifting on-off since my teens playing tennis, and only focusing on strength training for its own sake later in my 20s. I do have a "baseline" that I can reach in about 4-6 months even when I stop training completely for a while, the strength you gain changes your muscles (I think it creates extra nuclei in muscle cells, unsure how true that is, lots of pseudoscience in fitness-world) and it comes back. That's one of the main reasons I recommend all of my sedentary friends to try lifting for a while, it will help when one is older.
Also for most people being able comfortably deadlift even 1x of their weight in a set would be big improvement and they would probably get most of the benefits.
The problem is once people get to that - why would they stop?
I’m 40. I do 3 sets of 8 deadlifts about 5-10% over my body weight. This routine wears me out but each single rep feels easy. I can do this routine every day. You could say I’m maintaining, but I’m still reaping benefits years later. I consider it effective cross training for cycling. In between sets I do bicep curls and tricep kickbacks. My goal is to find a routine that will follow me until old age.
Especially if you're a cyclist, I think maintenance weight training like this is huge. Cycling, for all it's benefits, seems to be more likely to have a negative impact on bone density than a positive one.
From some age on (40-50?) you have to train to maintain, not to improve. Some can train really hard up to old age but most people tend to accumulate nagging injuries that can take away the ability to train at all.
-Develop excellent technique.
-Learn to stop at technical failure, never muscle up reps at any cost.
-Focus on slow eccentrics, deep stretches under load.
-Keep your sets over 10 reps.
I used to do karate. There were all these character who had seemingly superhuman physical fitness yet they would die really early. I always wondered why was that?
Now I believe that a lot of physical training isn't that healthy. And if you put your whole personal identity on your physical abilities then when your abilities start to decline, as they naturally do from age 40 and up, you may spiral out of control and literally die.
Were you referring to people like Andy Hug of Kyokushinkai?
I believe he suffered from an illness, but in general I suppose having a full-contact punching and kicking bouts with gigantic men isn't very good for your long-term health anyway. Especially in Kyokushin where they have (had?) no weight classes.
I actually don't think it is the direct damage from fighting that gets them but more the inability to stop and scale your commitment to what you can and can no longer do.
Direct damage from combat sports can catch up to you eventually. CTE is pretty serious, but unfortunately you probably don't realize the extent of that damage until it's far too late.
I know several martial arts practitioners who had to have hip surgery at a relatively young age. It’s really easy to overestimate what your body can handle.
Going from a black belt in Taekwondo (age 7-16) to doing Isshin-Ryū karate (with some BJJ, aikido, and budokai in between) was really eye-opening. Taekwondo is all about sharp form, clean lines, high kicks. Punches and kicks go to full extension, and the stances are fairly deep.
In Isshinryu, there's none of that. You stop the punch/kick before the joint goes to lock. The stances are much shallower. The movements are less dramatic. My sensei told me it is much more sustainable this way, and many of the old taekwondo folks end up with joint issues specifically in knees and elbows. I don't know if it's related, but my knees and elbows are the two parts of my body which are most problematic.
It's also possible my taekwondo instructor just didn't know about this, that was a long time ago.
Anything to an extreme is unhealthy, and making your whole personal identity any single thing - being an athlete or a pilot or a parent or gay or disabled or a Christian or whatever - is a bad idea. But the statement "a lot of physical training isn't that healthy" is pretty objectively wrong.
Your experience is surely valid, but I wouldn't just generalize this to the population at large.
When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.
And in any case, I wouldn't take Rippetoe as an example of good scientific programming these days. It's good for getting people into lifting, but Starting Strength has a powerlifting fetish for no good reason, and the advice to aggressively gain weight is also not appropriate for everyone (GOMAD etc.).
Then recently I saw a Starting Strength video in which they claimed that the really grindy reps at the end of the set are the ones that make all the difference (for strength anyway), which as far as I'm aware is false and probably harmful, as you can do way more training volume with less risk of injury (I would expect) if you keep some reps away from failure.
I can review myself in ekidd's experience. I've been in the gym for 20 years and plenty of stronger (but not competitive) people I know picked up injuries from grinding out tough sets of 5 or 3. Heck I have two abdominal hernias and a 'sensitive' back that gives me problems from time to time that I can directly blame deadlift PRs for, even with great technique.
The gym is generally a safe hobby, but scientific bodybuilding, with its large sets, slow eccentrics and focus on the stretch is definitely the safest way to lift for longevity.
Layne Norton is another if you want more of a natty point of view (IFBB pro). Mike is very enjoyable but I do find his advice often leans toward enhanced people and might not be the best for natties
> and the advice to aggressively gain weight is also not appropriate for everyone (GOMAD etc.).
Yeah, don't do GOMAD unless you're a 17-year-old teenage boy with a BMI of 18.5 who wants to be a linebacker or something. Some of the Starting Strength advice is... very situational, to put it politely as possible.
Their coaching certification, however, means more than 95% of the "personal trainer" certifications you'll see in the average gym.
> When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.
The oldest powerlifer I knew well who wasn't dealing with chronic injuries was a 40-year-old women's masters competitor. She competed around 135 or 139 lbs bodyweight, I think? She was absolutely a beast, with near flawless form and an excellent coaching eye.
Besides her? Almost every other long-term powerlifter I met was nursing some injury. But what really stood out to me was the absence of old powerlifters in my local gyms. There were old lifters in amazing shape. But none of them were grinding out the really heavy squats and deadlifts.
But don't take my word for it. All I'm recommending is that when new powerlifters max out their newbie gains, they take a good hard look around their local gym, and see who has decades of happy lifting under their belt. Ask those folks about their training plans and injury histories and PED use. You may see different patterns than I did. But for lifelong fitness, avoiding chronic injuries is everything.
It’s a very interesting shift in fitness culture as you age. In my teens and twenties I was adoring people like Ronnie Coleman and thinking that’s the life. Now I see him in clips often in a wheelchair - still with a great attitude but obviously not healthy.
Seems like in your 30s you start to realize the limits and tradeoffs and by your 40s most have accepted that longevity is the main goal - if it’s not too late and they destroyed a knee or back or something else.
How does one know when newbie gains are maxed out? I mostly do calisthenics because I actually got into working out because it was part of injury-recovery. I'm enjoying my gains and would like to push myself to get bigger gains, but lifelong fitness maintenance has always been #1 in my mind. I'd like to figure out how to identify what the "maximum maintenance point" is.
This depends on lift frequency, the lift itself, etc.
In general, for a compound lift (squat/bench/deadlift/overhead press) most would consider newbie gains exhausted once you can no longer linearly add weight/reps on a weekly basis (assuming a normal weekly schedule). This is the point when various forms of periodization (waving weight/reps/frequency up/down in many possible ways) need to start to support the increase of weight/reps over time.
> most would consider newbie gains exhausted once you can no longer linearly add weight/reps on a weekly basis
This is likely to happen after about 3 months.
I don't really agree that the kind of weights you can achieve after 3 months pose a meaningfully elevated injury risk, unless your form is terrible or you have some existing condition.
About grinding reps, I look to the example of Lasha Talakhadze, arguably the strongest weightlifter ever. Of all the clips I've seen of him training I don't think I've ever once seen him grind a rep. It's always submaximal(though huge by normal standards) weights done at such high speed it looks easy.
I am not sure if you minimize risk of injury that much. You might get injured on machine or dumbbell if you go heavy.
Anyway with most machines you won't be able to load it heavy enough quite soon.
I think there is also happy middle ground where you train for strength but not into extremes - you progress at slower pace and prioritize form. I would say bodybuilders can also be strong and healthy but they can't use that strength properly (because of the type of training they do) and destroy their health with drugs.
I mean, if they are the type that are using steroids and such things, sure.
The other sort that are into drugs just gets stoned and lift weights. The risks just aren't the same: Sure, you are going to do some damage with pot, but not the same sort and you'll certainly not be so much worse than the person that gets stoned and plays games a lot of the day or gets stoned and works at a gas station.
(I worked with an ex-professional body builder: He was the second type and couldn't compete with the steroid crowd. He was OK with that)
> I am not sure if you minimize risk of injury that much. You might get injured on machine or dumbbell if you go heavy.
The thing machines have that free weights don't are in-built safeties, either by design or as a discrete component (e.g. smith machine). The only machine I can think of that you can get seriously injured on is a leg press machine, whereas there are a multitude of ways to hurt yourself with free weights, especially any exercise where you're under the bar. I say this as someone who has historically trained with a ton of emphasis on the Big 5/Golden 5 compound movements (i.e. not machines). The safety aspect is a big reason casual fitness clubs (e.g. Planet Fitness) have no barbells on the premises.
You are right. I meant it if you do excercises “properly” it shouldnt be big difference. But of course that already means freeweights are more dangerous.
I think it makes sense to get started exercising, using any kind of good program at all, and to pay attention to technique.
I don't have injury stats on machines versus free weights. Almost all the serious lifters I knew (bodybuilders or powerlifters) did plenty of free weight work. This included one 67-year-old bodybuilder in amazing shape who'd been injury-free for decades. He used a mix of free weights and machines, but he didn't squat the kinds of weights the serious powerlifters did, either.
You can make yourself a lot stronger than the average person with pretty low risk of injury, if your technique is good. As far as I can tell, you can do it pretty safely with a squat rack, some safety bars, a bench, a bar, and some weights. According to BroScience(TM), lol, the advantage of free weights is that if you have good technique, then you wind up working large parts of your body as a unified system, or something. (Bro science is like blog posts on unit testing; everyone's got a theory and almost nobody has numbers.)
But once you hit "a lot stronger than the average person", where do you go next? Do you maintain? Do you keep trying to lift more? Do you decide to go for a bit of hypertrophy?
And that's where I think it makes sense to talk to the old lifters, and look for patterns. Don't believe me. I'm just some guy on the Internet. Go talk to the old guys who've been doing it for 40 years and who aren't wearing tons of wraps and tape. By the time you need to make these decisions, you'll likely know some old guys at your gym, anyways.
My focus has been on calisthenics, but I still do some lifting. My thoughts have been that lifting free benefits from increasing the strength of all the stabilizing muscles. machines take away a lot of that so that you can target a particular muscle/group very effectively.
So my completely uneducated opinion is, machines might be worse in the long run.
Injuries are not talked about enough on the internet. And they should be the number one topic for amateur fitness enthusiasts of any kind. Everybody is focusing on impressive performance results but:
- you will never achieve anything resembling impressive as an amateur natty no matter what you do. PED use is so common now they're the standard for comparisons
- your pay check does not depend on achieving certain results. Look at the pros when they stop competing, they know it's not worth pushing it any more
- any persistent injury significantly affects your life quality. A very mild shoulder RSI makes sleeping and sex complicated
- training 3 times a week for decades offers plenty of opportunities to make mistakes so you need to leave a big margin for safety
- 80/20 rule applies to the effort and results and to the risk and rewards
I think the number one topic should be actually doing it at all. Too many people just talk about getting exercise, or endlessly watch videos about it, or endlessly read blogs and articles and guides, but never actually do it, or do very little.
I think it should be injuries, because of the reasons mentioned above.
It's better to not work out and not be injured than it is to work out and be injured, so the focus should first be on avoiding injury and second on actually going out and doing stuff. Same reason we watch safety videos before we do the thing they concern.
Man I wish somebody told this to a young me (although I probably wouldn’t have believed them).
Once you start making gains it does become addictive especially if (like me) you have some uh let’s call it mental health challenges.
After sustaining a number of injuries I finally learned to stop looking at the numbers, to stop comparing myself on exrx or symmetric strength. I just go to the gym and have fun. I still do the major movements but I always make sure to leave a little in the tank. I always listen to my body first and foremost. If it doesn’t feel right, it doesn’t feel right.
I partially agree - pushing limits is plain stupid given enough time, every single time injuries happen, to everybody out there. If they say not to them they are either lying or just begun the sport recently.
I have different approach, with similar result so far to those bodybuilders without actually doing it - don't lift your max, but do it with free weights as much as possible, in good form (the most important bit long term). You don't need to look ridiculously bulked, say well-defined is more than enough, even for women's attractivity. Those massive muscles always hide very unhealthy eating habits (ie > 200g of protein every day will mess up your organs and joints badly over decades) and tons of injuries, plus they are very hard to maintain if you actually want to be happy in your life and do other stuff.
I strongly recommend removing some weights and adding repetitions, you can still reach failure threshold if you want, but in much safer way. Easier to maintain perfect form for each exercise too. You mention lifting heavy stuff in weird positions - that's recipe for injury regardless of age or shape, rather just be a bit smarter with lifting.
What is much better to be able to have some stamina - weightlifting on the limits alone ain't going to give you much of that (saw more than once a ripped guy who didn't do any cardio trying to make >1000m altitude difference hike, well he struggled a lot, on a way up and then knee pain started say in the middle of descent).
There are tons of things apart from main, most visible muscle groups that you really want to train - small stabilizing muscles, tendons, ligaments, joint flexibility, and stamina for all of those. Body is a complex and interconnected system, no point overdeveloping just few main parts for the show or mirror look, rather work on everything.
That's why I appreciate starting strength. It's a novice program and the gains come fairly quickly and easily. Rippetoe himself in Practical Programming makes the point that after the novice phase, you need to assess what your goals are and program accordingly. A football player will have different goals from a runner, who will have different goals from the general sedentary public.
I myself am pretty happy with where I'm at and don't plan on trying to squat 300KG. I appreciate there's a higher risk of injury pushing myself to my limits. And the amount of investment (time in the gym, getting a coach or learning enough to program for that level) is not worth it.
I'm not suggesting that everyone goes and tries to become a powerlifter. I'm just suggesting that for anyone who isn't strong and is looking to become strong quickly, Starting Strength is the best method in my opinion. And as others have pointed out, going from a 20KG to an 80KG squat will make a huge improvement to your life, and is very manageable for pretty much anyone.
I think people get into the mindset of needing to go nuts when exercising/health or they need to be at a gym. All they need to do is be active for about 30 minutes each day by going for a walk or biking.
Many cultures and countries ranked as healthy, and I mean overall like children to elderly are places where people walk everywhere. They aren't all power lifting or even going to gyms.
Strength training is good but overall daily activity is best.
To put it in programming terms, you're likely to improve more with the slow grind of an hour or so an evening side-project, rather than competing in a hackathon every 3 months.
One observation I had was that people coming to the gym to spend majority of their time on the treadmill are mostly women. I'm not sure if it is to lose weight, or simply because with infrastructure hostile to walking, the likelihood of problematic encounters increases greatly. Though I wouldn't feel entirely safe walking around at 23:00 without my dog either.
True, but statistics has nothing to do with correctness. Something done in excess, in either direction, is done in excess regardless of how many people do it.
The via media comes with difficulty as it requires reason and discernment, whereas extremes are easy and mindless, and people either under-exercise (the more common case) or over-exercise.
But historically, I would argue that we see more extreme "fitness" fads today than we did previously. Really dumb stuff that no longer has anything to do with health or fitness or beauty and more to do with some weird obsession.
If your squat problem is knee or back related, I recommend checking Ben Patrick aka KneesOverToesGuy and his programs. I'm not affiliated to it by any mean but I've been a paying customer for a year and a half and his method of training has been life changing. My knees and legs are now robust and bulletproof, they used to be weak and painful
His approach to shoulder training might be of interest too if one of your injuries is shoulder related
Thank you for the thoughts! My injuries have all been professionally rehabbed, some of them by MDs who treat competitive lifters. I didn't give up easily. :-)
But to take an example, there's not much you can do to rehab a partial TFCC tear in your 40s. There just isn't enough blood flow. I could get surgery, but my TFCC is already better than 90% of surgical outcomes.
It rarely affects me in daily life, but I can't train wide grip bench presses without immobilizing the wrist with a steel brace.
Once you hit 40, you can still get strong. But sooner or later, a doctor's going to sit down with you and say, "There's nothing I can do to fix this that won't make things worse."
But as another doctor told me, "Look, you have a choice. As you age, you can spend too much time talking to your orthopedic surgeon, or too much time talking to your cardiologist." Physical activity is essential, but it comes at a price. Staying as injury-free as you can manage is everything.
Am I right to assume there aren't any PEDs that are useful without having negatives?
I have no interest in competing/fairness, the only weight training I do is a) very light and b) just to have slightly stronger muscles to make the life I want to live easier (from going on nice walks to cycling to being able to pick up a heavy object without stress etc.)
So I don't care about stats or achievements or how my muscles look, but if there was a pill that could make me stronger for less effort without any side effects or risks I'd be more than happy to take it. But I guess that's still a pipe dream and I just need to keep on putting up with doing exercise more than I particularly want to?
There are always negatives to PEDs- some of the impact can be mitigated, but you're taking a long-term risk for a short-term result. If your goal is healthy longevity, I would steer clear.
That said, one supplement (not a PED) that is widely used and well-studied in the body-building world is creatine. Just make sure you drink enough water, as it causes you to retain a bit of water (I learned this the hard way, waking up with a bloody nose it dried my sinuses out so much).
Creatine has the advantage of being well supported by science, and safe for most people.
But for a beginning lifter, I wouldn't bother. Early on, literally every single workout will bring you bigger gains than creatine will. Do your 3x5 or 5x5 sets, go back a few days later, add 5 pounds. Easy.
Creatine makes the most sense once you've been lifting for a few months, and once you've figured out your diet, and your progress is starting to slow. As I understand it, it's tweaking your intramuscular energy storage just enough to turn a 9 rep set into a 10 rep set. Which is a good deal once you've exhausted your newbie gains.
But it's not going to do much for someone who's exercising casually.
Agreed on all counts- those gains when you first start on a 3x5 or 5x5 are exhilarating and, short of making sure to eat enough, I wouldn't recommend anyone waste effort complicating that magical phase.
They are all varying levels of dangerous. The most common warning I hear is that the heart is also a muscle. But there are many complex issues that come with PEDs. Anyone who had used them and is a serious person will tell you, a) don’t do it, b) if you really must, do it after you’ve reached your genetic peak as a natural with 5-10 years of heavy training.
Yes. Bodybuilding (big muscles and low body fat, for aesthetics) is very much a place where chemical assistance is common. But there are those who prefer to do it natural (and are way less likely to die young).
"Natty" means natural, and describes those who lift without performance enhancing drugs such as steroids, although some questionable supplements might be allowed. The opposite, describing those who use such drugs, might be "enhanced".
What's the questionable supplements allowed? Herbal stuff like ashwagandha or whatever, or not-technically-steroids-but-close-enough substances like SARMs?
Creatine is common among people who've maxed out their beginner gains but who are still chasing PRs. You get a fair bit of it naturally in food, and it's been studied to death by nearly every sports medicine program in the world: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/17674-creat...
Creatine will let you push an 8 rep set to 9 or 10. And when every pound on the bar is bought with two weeks of complicated periodization, that little bit helps. And creatine is allowed by basically every athletic league.
Real PEDs are a whole different ball game. Much bigger risks.
I think most people would count anything not forbidden for Olympic athletes as natty (not that most Olympic athletes actually are, but that's another discussion).
yep, as i got older chasing the 1RM became something that wasn't worth the risk/rewards. i would tweak something every once in a while and set back weeks as i recovered. wasn't competing and didn't make any difference in my health or how i was perceived.
at some point it becomes less about progress and more about being injury free and CONSISTENT (which can't happen without being injury free lol). it scares me that this margin becomes even less as you get older. i can imagine someone in their 70-80s being diligent and all it takes is some minor injury that takes you out for a week to begin a downward spiral.
I'm 36 and I've now transitioned from being a natty quasi-powerlifter to a natty bodybuilder. I should have done it earlier. I haven't hit a strength PR in years.
I started with a strength programme called Greyskull LP which descends from the Starting Strength school of thought (although far superior IMO). I got some really good results with it. I'm naturally quite strong, so it took less than a year before I was doing things like 200kg deadlifts. I would watch other natties in the gym and, according to my own observations, I was usually the strongest guy in the room.
But the easy progression quickly stops. Once you get to lifting 2.5x your bodyweight off the floor, or dipping with 100kg attached to your waist, it starts to become really hard. I mean, yes, you've trained for it, but it's still incredibly taxing on the system and, let's be honest, not reflective of any real work anyone might carry out. Real work involves lots of toing and froing, not lifting one enormously heavy weight then going home.
I developed a really hard to change mindset that said if it's not heavy there's no point. I was still doing 3x5 reps of everything, often to failure, after years and years of lifting and never making any strength gains anyway. I eventually developed an elbow injury thanks to too many weighted chin ups. I prided myself on being able to chin up 3 plates when most people can't even do bodyweight. Well, now I can't do bodyweight either (not without pain at least).
I made the change after watching some of Scott Herman's more recent videos on Youtube. He's now 39 and still in excellent shape. Unlike most on Youtube, I believe he is natty too. He does high volume work which, naturally, will be nowhere your strength limit. I was still doing 3x5 reps, now I'm doing 3x8 with drop sets. Way more volume, way more variety of movements, way less weight. It's been so much better.
I'd still recommend a starting strength programme to beginners, but you really need to get off it after a year or so and decide whether you want to be a bodybuilder or strength athlete. And before you decide to be a strength athlete, look at seasoned strength athletes and decide if you want to look like them when you are their age, or not.
As for juiced bodybuilders/athletes, don't even consider it. You think you'll get more women (be honest, that's why you do it). But, in fact, the love of your life doesn't care how strong you are or if you are 10% body fat. All you'll do is destroy your body. Lifting heavy just destroys it even more (see Ronnie Coleman).
> As for juiced bodybuilders/athletes, don't even consider it. You think you'll get more women (be honest, that's why you do it). But, in fact, the love of your life doesn't care how strong you are or if you are 10% body fat.
Agreed. It also occurred to me while reading your comment that there are a lot of parallels to this in the auto enthusiast world- guys going deep into debt on a depreciating asset, sometimes overtly to look cool for women, when in reality all they end up with is a sausage-fest of guys rubbernecking and coming up to them in parking lots.
Thanks for this! Do you (or does anyone) have any suggested resources for transitioning out of powerlifting into something more maintenance/lifestyle?
I got a good base of coaching in high school and later in life came back to lifting through Starting Strength. Recently I’ve gotten a lot out of Stronglifts 5x5 and a modest garage barbell setup to reach kind of a local maxima. I could keep going with it, and it would be nice to continue taking advantage of the simplicity of that program to stay in shape (or move to madcow, or something similar) but there’s no value to me in getting any bigger/stronger - I’d rather “diversify” a bit into other activities and avoid the injuries that come with heavy weights, but I would like to maintain what I’ve got.
I’m not sure if the answer is simply “just stop increasing weights” or if there’s something better I can do that would further reduce chance of injury, conserve energy for other activities, save time etc.
Well, one of the easiest paths is to stop doing oly lifts and start using DBs instead of a bar where possible. If you don't think you might have great form with DBs, just spend a few sessions at the beginning with a coach. The one thing it's hard to emulate with DBs are heavy deadlifts. For that, I built myself a resistance band platform similar to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/homegym/comments/kx57ho/i_made_a_re...
My experience is that it becomes equally fun for a data driven person to start tracking aerobic performance (rowing was where I started because we have a C2 at home, and then diversified into running and biking).
Oly is Olympic weightlifting, a set of weightlifting movements/lifts. In various workouts, like in dieting, some folks decide on a subset of all the things (movements, food) which is good (or bad) and focuses on them. Powerlifting is another opinion of a good set of movements which focuses on weightlifting abilities.
Oly - The competitive sport of Olympic weightlifting, which has 2 lifts, the snatch (bar from floor to overhead in one explosive movement)and the clean and jerk (from floor to chest height and from there to overhead).
Those who do it tend to just refer to it as weightlifting (one word), but we sometimes say Oly weightlifting when talking to others to avoid confusion with the more general weight lifting/lifting weights, which encompasses powerlifting(another competitive sport consisting of bench press, squat and deadlift), weightlifting and general resistance training.
Weightlifting is more dynamic and requires a lot of skill to control the timing and momentum, whereas powerlifting is closer to a test of raw strength(not that it doesn't require some technique).
I’ve found Marcus filly to be a great starting point for “functional bodybuilding”. He is an ex cross fitter with amazing physique but after rehabbing many injuries his programs and youtube videos emphasizes functional movements as a key foundational principle to all workouts.
I want to add to this. I'm also a Starting Strength alumni, moved on to the advanced programs and last stopped at 5/3/1.
One thing I learned: When I was peak-ego my DL/SQ/BP was ~1300lbs. I remember actively thinking the people on the machines and especially the "Smith" machine were wasting time.
Then after awhile, I switched gyms and noticed the biggest/oldest guys were not olympic lifting, they were all on machines. I got to talking to them and they said the same thing, they weren't chasing power numbers, they wanted to stay safe and the machines allowed them to do that.
You can still get injured on a leg press machine, but it offers most of the advantages without the huge risk of 350lbs dropping on your neck.
This is essentially the same as telling folks to stop driving because eventually you'll be in an accident running your life.
Lifting should always be taken seriously and "your muscles misfiring" is not a legitimate excuse for a lapse in judgment and lifting more then you should.
I think it's important to point out to people that are hesitant to lift due to the perceived risk of injuring themselves is that lifting has a much lower injury rate than most other activities (with proper coaching and programming).
Citing from Bigger, Leaner, Stronger by Michael Matthews, he points to a review of 20 studies performed by Bond University that found the average injury rates for the following activities:
I'm personally committed to progressively lifting heavy until I turn 40 at which point it becomes more difficult to add muscle. At that point, I'll look into transitioning into a sustainable program that will let me preserve as much muscle as possible as I age with minimal risk.
This seems about right? Let's say you powerlift 6 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. (This is believable after a year or so.) That's 300 hours. And you're picking up an injury every 170-500 hours. That seems... plausible?
What matters is how quickly and completely those injuries heal. If you tweak something, maybe you can just ice it, and maybe you're all healed up in two weeks, no problem.
But once you've been powerlifting seriously for a year, you're moving around real weight. Granted, you know you can handle the weight, you're moving it carefully, and you've got safety bars to catch anything you drop.
But some of the injuries you might pick up don't go away so easily. And over 40 years of heavy lifting, those numbers can add up.
> 1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours
This represents a 2-6 fold reduction in injury. And you'll be working slowly with lighter weight, so physics probably offers fewer chances for disaster.
So I'd guess that bodybuilding has a lower baseline injury rate, and possibly less severe injuries on average?
For normal people, please lift, it's amazing, but just don't go too heavy, especially with squats & dead lifts. The risk is too high.
Get to squat 150kg is highly likely to cause back injuries for a vast majority of the people.
Whereas lifting 50% of max reps with higher reps will get you similar benefits, in most cases even more muscle growth, without the high risk of injuries.
On the flip side, I did SS in my twenties (15 years ago) and, while doing a deadlift, my back popped and started hurting. I've had back pain since.
I wouldn't recommend deadlifts. The worst part about it is that everyone always says "you didn't have proper form!" but, in that case, if you can follow all the advice in the program and still have bad form, it just sounds like a way to dismiss injuries as "your fault, not the program's".
Yeah, about that: I started with a solid bodyweight fitness regime and after 10 good workouts over 4 weeks, two of my finger hurt to the point of feeling like they're damaged and the palm of my hand feels overtrained and constantly tense or something. Gives me pain with every pushup.
So, "it's really that easy" actually causes pain that I also feel when I hold a cup of tea.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't start lifting weights, but no matter what you do, you can be (temporarily) disabled for any reason, which is precisely what the article is about.
This looks good for power, less for endurance (like hike/bike uphill), for a computer job we also need endurance, not big muscles, so I walk, sometimes run, climb trees and rocks, (forage figs), squat for hours (static), and surely no added weight. In short I think selling your car, and using your legs daily as much as possible is what's best
Absolutely right, although I cannot lift the amounts you list. For me, weight lifting has nothing to do with "power lifting"..
I have a weight-machine and a few barbells in my house, and use them 2-3 times a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. I am older, I have no six-pack, I am not particularly muscular. It's not about that. It's about keeping what you have, and keeping what you have reasonably fit.
Muscles support your joints. Weight training also strengthens the ligaments and tendons that hold everything together. If you do it as "circuit training" (only a few seconds between different exercises), it also serves as cardiovascular exercise. All of this is important for everyone, especially as you get older...
Though I agree with your point, I would advise against this. Instead I would advise someone to master body weight exercises. Pull ups, push ups, hand stands, etc.
Master motor control, balance and ability to control your own weight. The problem with lifting is no matter how good your form is, injuries are inevitable and made worse due to the extra resistance.
Why? They’re not that difficult, especially if someone is there to assistance or you have a wall. It’s also a yoga position.
Now obviously I wouldn’t start out with hand stands since you need to be in pretty good shape (like a pull up you probably can’t do it unless you’re in decent shape anyways).
It’s certainly safer than having literally hundreds of pounds above your neck.
My dad did a lot of bodybuilding, and martial arts, and swam miles a week too. Just loved physical activity.
Last year he slipped a disk putting gas in his car. Backs are really arbitrary and you can do a lot to finesse the dice, but you're still gonna roll snake eyes on something.
I'm personally a fan of the Greyskull Linear Progression or GSLP. I'm pretty much a fan of any LP since if you stick with it you get a ton of strength gains.
So you are only squatting twice a week and deadlifting once a week, versus SS with squats everyday.
A typically schedule following M-W-F for two weeks could look like the following:
M: Squat & Bench
W: Deadlift & OHP
F: Squat & Bench
M: Squat & OHP
W: Deadlift & Bench
F: Squat & OHP
I highly recommend purchasing 1.25 plates so that you can increase weights by 2.5 pounds versus 5. I did this for bench and OHP and that was when I really started seeing gains!
AMRAP stands for as many reps as possible and works as a good metric for moving up a weight or staying at a weight. If you do 5 at the end, you may want to stay. If you do 10 or more, you can double the weight increase.
The other cool part of AMRAP is that you now have another metric besides weight - you can try to break previous rep records, especially if you deload and are working your way back up to previous working weights.
At the end of the day, sticking with any LP would be good. I just like GSLP since I'm not squatting every day.
All that being said, I started off with SS and that was what got me to a 315 pound squat.
Doing GSLP is what got me to 220.5 bench and a 135 OHP (all for reps)! I think the tiny incremental plate (1.25 plates) and AMRAP sets are what helped me the most.
As usual, Hacker News presents the anti-human take in the top few most upvoted comments. Although this is an unusually subtle one.
I say this as a guy who still works a Starting-Strength-based program. Power lifting is great--it changed my life. But it's NOT a solution to disability and it's NOT a foolproof prevention. The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.
This is an extremely cynical take. (As usual, Hacker News!)
> The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.
I don't know how you got that implication. It seems like you agree that lifting is great. Many people don't do resistance exercise. The article itself is about the process of aging, and resistance exercise helps as a prophylactic. We all understand it's not a solution to all disability. But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.
Great! What's the problem? (While we're talking about implications, your comment does seem to imply you haven't read the linked article.)
> The article itself is about the process of aging, and resistance exercise helps as a prophylactic.
Aging is relevant to the author's case of disability because they mention that they " tried something that, looking back now, maybe [they're] too old for". But a lot of disability has nothing to do with age.
I think the point of bringing up age is that a lot of able people are selfish and assume that disability is someone else's problem, when in fact, the vast majority of people will become disabled in their lifetimes.
Do you really not see how bringing up a way to prevent disability (which is at best, a small-percentage probablistic solution) sounds like an attempt to refute that point?
> But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.
Sure, and that would be a good thing. But you've gotta understand that in every conversation about disability, many people's only contribution to the conversation is to talk about how people could be less disabled, with almost no non-disabled people willing to engage with actually accommodating disability.
It's at best extremely condescending, as if people who are disabled aren't trying their best to not be disabled. There are exceptions, of course, but even in those cases, I tend toward more compassion because there's likely underlying mental illness going on there.
Fundamentally, there just isn't a massive societal problem with people not doing enough to not become disabled. The problem is we don't do enough to accommodate disability. Constantly bringing up ways we can avoid being disabled is insensitive and distracts from the real problems and real solutions.
At a more basic level: stop trying to present your solutions to a problem you don't have, and listen more to people who have the problem. This is particularly true if your "solution" is to arrogantly tell people how to not have the problem.
This is advice HN tends to trot out periodically, but I find it off-topic at best here.
The point of this blog post is to elicit empathy, something often lacking in healthy people who cannot envision themselves suffering from some ailment. Eventually everybody's bodies and minds will fail. Whatever specific mitigation strategies you deploy will eventually become ineffectual and your capabilities will degrade, either by means of age or disease or accident or all three.
We can and should do more to make things better for people who have differing levels of physical and mental capabilities because it is the right thing to do, but if that isn't enough, we should also do it out of our own self interest.
I'd suggest that bringing out "just get strong with these easy steps" as a response to a person who suffered an injury is particularly missing the point.
You have to be pretty abled already to even start a basic lifting program. I have a nerve impingement in my neck/shoulder, if I even lift 10lb dumbbells over my head a few times, my left arm literally goes numb.
Indeed. And we are all born disabled (in that we are unable to sustain our own independence and wellbeing without assistance), and will likely all be disabled at the door of death. For such a universal experience, you’d think healthcare was more central a tenet of civilisation… As available and freely usable as the roads we drive on. Not just that, but our very way of work. 40+ hours a week is plainly ableist yet it persists as an almost unshakable norm. If my brain can only handle a couple hours a day, finding regular employment is nigh impossible.
The problem is you can’t go into a “healing tube” like from sci-fi movies and get fixed. Medical workers are real people with their own wants and opinions on their compensation, just as we are as technologists. It’s so funny that everyone on HN expects to make tons of money for little effort, but when doctors and nurses want to be paid huge bucks society balks.
America’s model is where the UK, Canada, and other subsidized healthcare systems are going. Our doctors make way more, but there is recognition that every doctor is not a replaceable cog - the good ones build up names and reputations for themselves. We have quietly built a large system of cheaper options including tele health, urgent care, and primary care (like CVS Minute Clinic) while enabling nurse practitioners to handle ever more procedures and tests. This is how the system will have to scale given the increasing safety net and huge immigration inflows.
Medical care costs money. I’d rather have choice and options than pretend it’s free, which it isn’t.
Private and well-compensated medical workers still don't offer a sci-fi "healing tubes". Private healthcare is maybe marginally better for 1% of the population, but far more expensive.
Medical tourism into the US is extremely common. I own a rental unit near a major hospital and rent to many foreigners who travel in for treatment, particularly Canadians. Everything has trade offs.
USA is world-best of many things. But I don't think the healthcare is so good because it is funded by exploiting the poor. And if so, that would be quite a macabre defense.
“Exploiting the poor” is one of those philosophical arguments I disagree with. The US is supposedly so bad for the poor yet they are breaking down the door to come here, month after month.
> The US is supposedly so bad for the poor yet they are breaking down the door to come here, month after month.
The hope of most poor coming into the US isn't that the US is better for poor people, it's that by coming to the US they can stop being poor. And in most cases it doesn't work.
In fact, the American dream of "anyone can become rich" is a lie which exists specifically to justify why we've let America become such a shitty place for poor people. After all, why do we have to improve conditions for the poor if they can just become rich? It's their own fault they've chosen to be poor--they must like it, right?
Really, rich people have no idea what's going on with poor people, and you should really stop talking about things you don't understand.
There is also medical tourism the other way to EU, Mexico, and other countries.
US is really good for the top 10%, who can afford it. However, a minimum wage worker has a really tough time getting good results because the cost is astronomical even with decent insurance.
Of course there are diminishing returns, the world famous brain surgeon billing at $10k per operating room hour isn't going to deliver a 20x better outcome then the average brain surgeon billing at $500, or however much the ratio is.
Yet some folks still choose to seek out the world famous brain surgeon when they desire that extra quantum of assurance and if they can afford it.
No. I am pointing out that rich people still can and do spend all their money on private healthcare for some tiny increase in countries with public healthcare.
It's possible for at least 1 person in any given country to hop on a plane or recruit world experts to come, with enough money, even in Somalia or Afghanistan, which don't have functioning systems of any kind.
I wasn't making any claims to the contrary, if you misread.
> America’s model is where the UK, Canada, and other subsidized healthcare systems are going
Well there are other ways to scale - look to China' system - which has a massive throughput of patients in large regional medical centers - primary doctors there see like hundreds of patients a day - but don't do anything but recommend and if you can't get it resolved, they have an escalation mechanism where you see more and more specialized doctors (same day) until you either stump the most specialized docs or they have an action plan for you.
So you could automate the work away or you could create a system that scales through production-line efficiency.
I once sat on a zoom call with a vision impaired user to do some accessibility testing on our site.
First, it was enlightening for me to see how she navigated through our site using her screen reader.
Second when she landed on our booking page we got so embarrassed because she couldn’t use our date picker. A basic HTML version would have done the job. But a few weeks back we had debated over which fancy jquery date picker plugin we should use without considering the impact. It was fancy alright, yet it wasn’t usable at all for this user.
I learned and felt many things that day as an engineer. Thinking in depth, across many different personas is a difficult thing to do, let alone building a tool that works well.
At my job we worked with an accessibility agency to train our devs and designers on web accessibility. It's really enlightening to see someone navigating smoothly with just sound or with 800% zoom. And very embarrassing when your menus just repeat the same "list item" label 5 times because of poor use of semantic HTML.
That makes me think, how does one learn to use a screen reader? (Or alternatives for other handicaps)
It seems fairly technical and challenging to learn, but I feel it would make sense for abled engineers to practice using those.
I personally wouldn’t even know where to start, I only enabled the screen reader a few times by mistakes and have no idea how I could learn to be effective with it if I need to at some point in my life.
You can also learn Linux by just uninstalling Windows. 15 minutes of good starting material will save you untold amounts of unnecessary headache though.
I've been learning screen readers in my spare time because it seems like a nice screen off way to browse content in bed. It's servicable and maybe even viable way to work if more of the web was tailored for it.
Surprised it isn’t more common, I would expect nerdy abled people to show off to their friends their cool screen reading skills, just because it’s such a niche, technical, and weird thing to do.
It's been a while, but I'm not convinced there is a truly accessible date picker out there. Allowing manual typing of the date seems like the best and only viable option.
Also just typing the date manually is almost always faster than using a date picker. Or at least that's how I perceive it, which is all that matters. I hate apps that force me to take my hands off the keyboard and use the mouse.
As soon as we solve the whole US-using-a-different-date-format-to-the-rest-of-the-world problem, absolutely.
Having it automatically display the day of the week as you type the date would be a big help though.
The problem is that "just typing the date manually" actually has quite complex i18n issues. It can be done well, but that generally means you make the user explicitly confirm the date they just typed.
As input, any permutation of full year, full month name, and day of the month is unambiguous wrt any date on or after January 1, 100 CE* and therefore sensible, no matter how unusual/obscure. (The issue of handling multiple languages isn't a rejoinder to this, because that's just localization, which is an umbrella that should already exist so treating it like a new requirement would just be double counting.) This is how every browser-native datepicker should already work, although regretfully they do not.
Noone would expect that so you'd need to explain it and get people to spell correctly. Not convinced it is a good UX.
"Just localization" isn't "just". Many people have the wrong localization on their computers. Partly because they don't always communicate in their native language. But also because google et. al. are doing such a piss poor job of it.
It is also always weird if your are on an international site. Enter everything in English and then suddenly is expected to enter some fields in your native language.
> "Just localization" isn't "just". Many people have the wrong localization on their computers.
Think about this for a minute longer. Do you have an example or scenario for the use of a Web site where the author can fall into a pit of success (despite having the user's wrong localization) on all things except for dates and that would be broken by allowing* this date input method?
Even ignoring that:
What I said was that "any permutation of full year, full month name, and day of the month is unambiguous". There are a finite number of months and a finite number of localized tokens for representing those months. Do you have an example of two different locales that use the same token (or token sequence) to denote different months on the calendar?
Only if you use a proleptic calendar. If you are entering dates from historic documents, you need to know which calendar the author of the document was using
> As input, any permutation of full year, full month name, and day of the month is unambiguous wrt any date on or after January 1, 100 CE* and therefore sensible, no matter how unusual/obscure
If you are using a proleptic Gregorian (or Julian, but why on earth would you do that) calendar, sure.
If its not one of those (but its still the Roman-derived Christian calendar in some form), there are ambiguities, and if its any other calendar, it may have ambiguities and/or the elements needed to specify a date may be different, and the CE/AD year is likely not an element and not relevant to whethe or not their are ambiguities.
The comment I replied to specified ISO 8601. The Gregorian constraint is a given.
I put in a whole clause in my original comment to preempt this flavor of pedantic sniping that involves applying double standards. And yet here we are.
The devs of a site (or an application) are in a video call, with screen sharing or whatever is useful, with a user who has accessibility needs and is using their site/program. A bunch of other devs sit in on it, muted, just learning. Then the devs throw some money in the pot and the user who did the testing gets paid for their time. Everybody wins.
Oh, and if all participants agree, the stream is made available for subscribers, and then the user gets royalties off that, too.
You just described what is known as "user testing". They can happen in person, like a focus group, or remotely. Companies reach out to the public for "random" users that fit the given criteria and are paid for their time. You can also use a 3rd party service who will pair you with random testers, for example https://www.usertesting.com/
I don't want to overdo it with high-falutin' theorizing, but I think your firm's definition of "fancy" might be missing some crucial aspects, or maybe "fancy" isn't the right term. Maybe it was "flashy," or "gaudy," or "decorative"? Maybe it was "branded"? Or did it actually offer sighted users a more effective UX?
It's about something which happened to limit this person's mobility and how it give them more empathy for people with impaired mobility and other disabilities. The point is that accessibility is important for each and every one of us.
Accessibility is an important part of software design. I also found it compelling rather than banal (and clearly I'm not the only one, given the 200+ upvotes and deeply personal comments people have shared).
The audience for a given Hacker News article is the people who show up and find it interesting, rather than some platonic ideal of a Hacker News user. Participating in a system based on voting (such as HN) means accepting you won't always get your way. There are stories on the front page that aren't inappropriate/flaggable but which I would rather weren't there every day.
It should be completely apparent im not criticizing accessibility issues but instead the blog post, which resembles a revelation a 10-year old has when having had a bit too much cough medicine
It’s true. But also perhaps more nuanced. Many people see disability as a purely negative experience, something to avoid at all costs, synonymous with illness. But it is a slightly different axis: Both medical and societal in nature. Thus we have the idea that it is not the person who is disabled, but society that disables the person. And separately many people have it as a central part of their identity, something to be proud of. Hence identity first language: “disabled person” vs “person with disability”. I am a person who holds it both as a burden of sorts, but also an identity, and a constantly fluctuating commentary on the ableism in the way we’ve built society. Disability is a complex framework.
It should be noted that not all disabled people or communities like the social model. I despise it, for example. I have MS + visual impairments and society isn't why I'm disabled. I find the social model is adopted more by people for whom accommodations/cures exist and who don't have physical difficulties/pain.
Mea culpa as well. To the extent I've successfully developed empathy for disabled and marginalized people and some degree of understanding, it's mostly been because my privileged life was interrupted by injury, or something else happened to impact myself personally.
I read this article on HN recently about trying to cultivate these experiences deliberately, I'd be curious what you thought of it. It seems like an interesting idea but I have mixed feelings about cosplaying as a person with a disability I don't actually have.
I've read it...at least part of it and skimmed the rest.
From what I have read -- and this article cites the same stat -- roughly 15 to 20 percent of people self-identify as disabled. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. At least one study found that about 60 percent of people would benefit from better accommodation if you ask them if they have difficulties with X without asking them to self-identify as disabled.
Both the officially disabled and people with milder limitations get really cranky about where to draw that line. People with mild limitations often go out of their way to say they are definitely not disabled and merely have a little trouble with these things and officially disabled jealously guard the label because they need it to have any hope of making their lives work at all and don't want people who can make their lives work without that label horning in on any limited benefits available only to them or diluting what the word means.
It's a really thorny topic.
I had a class from SFSU in Homelessness and Public Policy and it has a similar exercise, like "Spend one day pretending you are homeless. Figure out how to go to the bathroom while carrying everything you own. Figure out how you will get around without a car."
And then I spent nearly six years homeless.
There are plenty of people with actual disabilities who are perfectly capable of telling you what they need if you will only listen to them. If you are unable or unwilling to listen to them and take them seriously without trying to "walk a mile in their shoes," well, sure, go ahead and try it out for a week or whatever if you think that will help you.
But sometimes all it takes is one person willing to say it over and over so you keep it in mind when it's time for you to make coding decisions or whatever. And if/when that happens, it probably won't ever get noticed, acknowledged nor appreciated.
It will promptly be forgotten like when programmers of an old, "useless" language fixed Y2K and the world did not have a global financial meltdown on January 1, 2000. We shrugged, acted like "Someone must have been wrong." and moved on to hand-wringing about the newest bad news.
I am probably the only person on the planet who sometimes goes "Thank God we aren't living in the Y2K Post Apocalypse!"
The internet has made my life as a disabled person vastly more workable. Are there things I wish were even betterer? Sure, there are and we certainly shouldn't be dismissing the completely valid complaints of anyone who can't do x because it's not designed with their needs in mind and there is no means whatsoever to get it done.
I certainly do not dismiss such people.
But perhaps it would help to understand that when they complain about, for example, the internet not working for them, part of what they are telling you is that the internet is vital to their lives and has expanded their life beyond what it likely would have been in decades past. So when it doesn't work, it's like taking away their oxygen or sunshine.
It's hard to do anything well. It's often not appreciated at all nor rewarded. Try to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The main point of this article is to inspire a bit more empathy and consideration for those with disabilities. He knows he's privileged, and that the 4/5 people who aren't currently disabled (by Sarah's count) are too; he's trying to help the 4/5 see themselves in the 1/5, too. Doesn't feel constructive to call him out for it
I used to work at a Fortune 500 company. While there, I gave up my car and began walking to work.
A teammate offered to pick me every morning but our schedules were a little different, so she couldn't take me home. There was a program for people ridesharing, some goody-two-shoes, pie-in-the-sky, "Let's promote the idea that people need to drive less" thing and she qualified for a special parking space for ridesharing with me.
And then someone else offered to take me home and also applied to this program and did not get the special parking space she was hoping for. Instead, the first woman lost her special parking privileges.
After that, I stopped participating in all the company programs aimed at rewarding people with cars for driving less by walking, biking, ridesharing, etc. for fear that as someone entirely without a car, no matter what I did, I would somehow be in violation of the rules which were geared towards people who owned cars and by default drove alone.
I happen to be seriously handicapped myself and my condition is congenital. If he is more entitled to give his views on this topic than I am, then something is extremely wrong.
I feel very conflicted when seeing young people who are out of shape. They have the best possible potential for increasing fitness due to fast recovery. An investment that pays massive dividends in a very very short time. A fit body pays back on so many levels it is a paradox why would anyone not be fit.
The world has changed. The built environment has changed. I look at unfit young people and part of what I feel is that they are victims of a broken world getting blamed for what their elders did to them.
Paradox? Declining to experience torture several times a week in perpetuity is not a paradox. I have never ran a mile, not when I was young or today; not all of us have the genes that release happy chemicals from physical exertion.
Yes, I think people sometimes underestimate how much people’s experiences differ. I find weight lifting boring but enjoy running; many people report the opposite and others hate both.
So while the long-term benefits of exercise are well-established, it’s up to the individual whether the benefits outweigh the cost for them personally. And in the context of disability, some of those benefits might not apply or may be counteracted by the exercise exacerbating a chronic condition.
The benefits of exercise are great enough that I would encourage people to try to find an activity they like and accommodates any disabilities. Unfortunately, this isn’t feasible for everyone.
I think that would just be a matter of practice. Many things are uncomfortable/difficult in the beginning, but if you do them enough then they can become rewarding.
Well what's your reason for running? To lose weight? To be healthier? To sleep better? Can you run longer distances? Can you run faster times? Can you compete in races?
I mean if you have run for 5 months and haven't progressed towards any of your goals ... then it seems like your routine needs to be improved. Or maybe you want a different activity that would help you reach your goals.
For most people, if you don't enjoy running just to run, the reward would be the progress towards your goals.
Not reading the article or engaging with the points it makes also makes things weird. Each of us has a fragile body and at any moment, you might become broken in a way you can't fix. When you can't walk up a hill, hold a job - the world becomes hostile. Even going down a road that isn't asphalt but stones is a challenge for some people. That is a consequence of young and healthy people designing our world and the things in it, while others have to adapt. It is not about privilege, it's about smart design and understanding that the problem can very easily apply to us all. One fall down the stairs, one stroke, one bad day at the gym - you have injury for months or for life. It's a real danger.
I did read the article. We are all incredibly fragile and also strong creatures. I am quite regularly injured due to sport, and broken for months so I understand fragility and also that strength comes with hard work and focusing on what one can do with what we have instead of what we cannot do.
Before my 30s all my injuries took a week or two to heal.
Now, I'm running around months with a pulled muscle.
I don't even get them from lifting too heavy in the gym, I usually get them when I rotate in the dumbest possible way, grabbing some paper in the office.
I'm not OP but I'm in my 40s and their tale is very familiar to me.
If you live an active lifestyle in your 20s and 30s and try to keep up with the same pace as you age, over time you will just find yourself "tweaking" things. This could be small injuries, like a pulled muscle, or tendonitis, or joint pain.
You are still physically capable of many of the same things, but if you deviate from the "happy path" injury is much more likely and takes way longer to heal.
This reminded me of 5 daily remembrances from Buddhist cannon.
1. I am sure to become old; I cannot avoid ageing.
2. I am sure to become ill; I cannot avoid illness.
3. I am sure to die; I cannot avoid death.
4. I must be separated and parted from all that is dear and beloved to me.
5. I am the owner of my actions, heir of my actions, actions are the womb (from which I have sprung), actions are my relations, actions are my protection. Whatever actions I do, good or bad, of these I shall become the heir.
But seriously it can be the opposite of depressing. Instead of hating getting old, you realise it is like hating that the sky is blue and then you can enjoy it.
I think this is a valid critique. One of the primary reasons I dislike stoicism is that reminding myself at every passing moment that I'm going to lose everything I love is awfully depressing. Certainly there is a place for it, particularly around forming and working toward long term goals, but I believe there's also a place for hedonism and escapism and good humor. I don't think that pursuit of rational truth is the goal of being alive.
I think though the point is to accept these realities. Once you do, you can move past them, past the constant worries and actually enjoy what life has to offer, what every moment has to give.
You don't focus on these realities and stop there. You move past them, with a clearer mind.
It's just reality. Both Buddhists and stoics say it's better to deal with it as it is, rather than putting your head in the sand.
Buddhists celebrate and actively cultivate joy (pīti, a stimulating and joyful mental factor that you develop through meditation). For lay people, any wholesome kind of joy derived from life that doesn't lead to craving and addiction is also considered good.
That joy is transient and ultimately in its transience a cause for suffering. Perfectly fine if you take it for what it is, but not something to cling to. 'Life is suffering' is kind of the whole deal of Buddhism - first, it teaches you to recognise how bad the problem really is, then gives you mechanisms for solving it (detachment).
These are things to remember so you can decide and live that. Putting things in perspective, highilighting what you shouldn't take for granted.
If those sentences are grim then those are things you value.
I don't think it's depressing. It is the reality of life. It is a constant reminder that you must enjoy life today and don't wait for that perfect day. I find it anti depressing because it motivates me to do more today.
I was born with sort of disability. From relatively early age I was presented with the reality that I would have to have heart surgery later in life. So I have tried to enjoy life till that moment. And then the moment came. It was not that bad and, even if I'm not Wout Van Aert, I can still enjoy things like bike commuting. I do not consider my self unlucky but privileged. It is not ideal but it is how it is. I'm not waiting for afterlife.
I don't see that as depressing at all. I find that once you accept that human life and health aren't limitless, it allows you to enjoy every day a lot more than when you think that the days are unlimited. Everything you do and own exists in this time and space which you also temporarily occupy - enjoy it while it lasts, because it will end at some point. It's not depressing, it's more like giving you permission to enjoy life and material things to the fullest while you can.
I suppose the implication is to enjoy what you can before those things take hold, or during them as best you can if that's the hand you're dealt with. To me this implies the importance of a work/life balance. Working with the hope that it will pay off later has to be traded off with the knowledge that your later life may be inherently less joyful or may not even happen.
The buddhist philosophy (bumper sticker: compassionate skepticism) is very much about joy and reducing suffering. But being ignorant of your likelihood to grow old/ill and eventually die is not a recipe for joy either.
> 1. I am sure to become old; I cannot avoid ageing.
It's unfortunate fact though that there is rather large chunk of people who do not get to grow old. In the same vein there are people who will not get ill anymore before their death.
> it’s easy to misunderstand ability as a binary thing.
Yes. And also the notion of ability/disability has too many connotations, it makes it really hard to discuss the subject.
One could posit that having less than perfect vision is a disability (for whatever value of "perfect"). But people will fight tooth and nail to not fall into that category, they'll explain how much they still can do without correction, or straight refuse the definition because glasses compensate their vision.
I think at the very basis, accepting that there isn't a "norm" in the first place could help a lot. If there's no normal people, we can start discussion how we're all different and will be good or bad at different things.
Another funny lens: people entering a foreign culture where they can't read nor speak should also fall into the (temporary?) disabled bucket. And same for so many other mindane situations.
Some years ago, I probably never would have thought of myself as "disabled" in any way. But, like you mention, I wear glasses, and, depending what the activity is, I can either continue on with little issue, or end up completely useless. I've also learned that I have ADHD and a learning disability.
A "disability" is generally defined as a condition that limits one or more "major life activities," which is a term that has its own definition, but it's pretty common sense. One of my disabilities is myopia, which limits the activity of "seeing." My learning disability limits my ability to process visual-spatial information.
Without accommodation in certain tasks, I absolutely am disabled. Ask me to navigate an unfamiliar neighborhood alone without my phone, and I'll end up lost, frustrated, and probably not find where I'm supposed to go. Ask me to do it without my phone and my glasses, and it's just a pointless exercise in futility then.
But, let me have those tools which I know can help me do the tasks, and I'll be just fine. I am still a person who has some disabilities even with my tools, but they're what lets me manage. It says something about American culture, I think, that being seen using something as a "crutch" is a sign of weakness, when, in fact, a crutch is nothing more than a tool that can let someone who would be otherwise unable to do an activity be able to do so, no more or less than my glasses or my phone.
We are born totally helpless and die in various states of disrepair but the bulk of our moral disposition as expressed during our temporary window of "ability" does not at all reflect this fundamental truth.
This contradiction is at the heart of social and political frictions. How much does an individual at their peak owe to the collective that "abled" them. Why should anyone take care of them during decline?
Its not a trivial problem. The feeling of invincibility in our youth, ignoring - if not despising - the weak and adulating the strong and capable is probably an evolutionary adaptation.
Yet our predicament as an intelligent and moral species is to understand this core reality and find the right balance. Use the various forms of invented technology to push the limits of ability (augment) without forgeting how it is all bootstraped and held together.
It's more accurate to say: we're disabled in various ways because big medicine and pharma gatekeeps useful treatments. Regenokine and anabolic agents like Deca-Durabolin can completely reverse joint damage. But your doctor will not allow you to take them, even if you insist upon it. In fact they will often report you to insurance and classify you as a drug abuser.
In terms of web UX, one disability that hardly anyone considers is intellectual disability - but really many people who work in development (design, project management, programming) are outliers in terms of intellectual ability (albeit probably not as much as they think they are)
But we're all just temporarily smart as well, many people are not that bright before that first cup of coffee or if they are going through lots of stress (hence crunch time often decreasing productivity)
One of the problems I have is encountering design decisions that I think that must be a bug, only to have it turn out to be a real thing. This quirk in my character cost me a lot of money with the Danish department of business registration, - long story short when I said I filled out what they wanted filled out and speculated maybe their site was broken they said oh you probably made this specific mistake, everybody does that - but in the end I still had to pay thousands of dollars in fines and close down the company (it was when Denmark decided you had to specify the legal owner of an LLC or face forced closure with fines, about a year later they closed down all LLCs anyway)
on edit: of course a lot of devs have specific intellectual differences in ability - like ADHD.
Don't forget specific learning disabilities, either. I, personally, have a deficiency in visual-spatial processing. I can't say that it's come up in a web UX context before, but I can certainly imagine it doing so if a site decides to implement some kind of fancy spatial UI.
when I was in high school they gave me some sort of advanced IQ test, I scored in the top 1% of the population for reading comprehension and logic, and in the lowest 5% for visual spatial processing - I have however improved quite a bit since that time in the latter area.
One of the things I gained an appreciation of was the editorial rule most newspapers had, but have now abandoned on the web, to write at or below an 8th grade level.
I know someone who has a 134 IQ (well above average) but also has a comprehension disorder. They work in tech, but often need to send articles/instructions to a peer for summary/interpretation. They have an extensive vocabulary but if there is an unnecessarily complex paragraph they just get lost between the beginning and end.
It’s greatly made me appreciate simple straightforward technical documentation beyond my existing appreciation because simplicity doesn’t waste my own time.
I use an adblocker, DarkReader, and reader mode, because of my ADHD. Even minor distractions or asinine GUI "features" can make it impossible for me to focus on the content of the page. I don't tend to think of myself as disabled, but I absolutely rely on accessibility tools (in all but name) to navigate the web.
I don't have ADHD but I have some neuro-visual impairments and movement + visual crowding are huge problems for me. It's basically really easy to turn things into an I Spy or Where's Waldo page for me where I can't see anything because there's too much going on. Lots of websites are problems.
One thing I also really like in addition to what you mentioned is greyscale mode.
My daughter has a very serious learning disability and she loves to swipe through home photos or videos on an android phone or on an ipad. She can mostly get on OK but when you look at it from her point of view, its _amazing_ how complicated 'swiping through pics' has become.
Swipe from the top? that brings the notifications
Swipe from the bottom? Brings up photo options. Press on one of those by accident and you end up in a nest of menus and features that can be hard to get out of.
Want to play a video? Tap once, the video controls fade in, you've then got to tap the play button in the middle of the screen within half a second or so, or it fades out again
Long press while scrolling through list of photos? Now you're in 'select mode' and every photo you press gets added to the selection rather than getting displayed. Can be very confusing.
Press the wrong button in IOS and you end up in very confusing picture-in-picture mode
One great thing about iOS is the 'guided access' feature, you can use it to lock the ipad into one app and even disable parts of the touchscreen so that a child can use the ipad without accidentally finding their way out of the app and into your email. I dont think Android has an equivalent. edit: ah yes it does - App Pinning - thanks
Yep, imagine how difficult it is for the blind. I had to explain that tapping and swiping this light brick in their hand could order pizza. Pretty much witchcraft.
Android does have that feature on some phones, it's called App Pinning.
Insisting on just one button for basic interactions and swipes for the rest was a mistake.
On top of that apps (looking at you, Instagram) are often simply buggy. You can have the same video play or not play depending on how the winds of load balancing blow. No graceful degradation or anything.
I friend of mine a few years back once said to me, "Some days ADHD is my most disabling condition." This is a person who often can't walk.
I was properly medicated (with non-stimulant medication) for ADHD a few years ago and looking back to my life before that, I realize how much ADHD has negatively effected my life. And yet never along the way did anyone look at me with any sort of compassion. It was always seen as a moral failing on my part, a "Why can't you do this? Everyone else can." And I had been given those messages so consistently that I came to believe them about myself.
It was really eye-opening to have someone with a visibility tell me that sometimes their intellectual disability hampered their life more than their physical disability.
We take it for granted. But intellectual decline is a real thing. My memory was superior before. And my work processes revolved around superior memory. Then I got sick for 19 days with severe headaches. And I was not the same after.
I deserved it too. I was too proud and demeaning others for not being able (like me) to remember things.
> Through all of it, I’ve found myself noticing “accessibility” helpers more than ever before: that railing on the stairs, that ramp off to the side of the building, that elevator tucked away in the back.
The title got me because I was fortunate to have this revelation too. I'd sprained a foot joint jumping off a small staircase. A day later I could barely limp into a med supply place to buy crutches. My "outdoors" vacation changed completely.
Suddenly I'm worried about people judging me, and I'm intensely grateful for ramps, I care about parking spots, and it dawned on me that I'd ignored all this infrastructure that I now needed.
> 1 in 5 people currently have a disability. 100% of people will have some form of disability in their lifetime.
That would mean no one will ever die in their best abilities. I think that is a claim that can easily proven wrong, for any reasonable definition of best abilities.
I think if you went even more pedantic you would come back again to the idea that it's right, the idea being that someone dies an untimely death, fine, but it takes like 5 minutes for them to die and several of those minutes they are technically disabled.
So then you get ultra pedantic about, maybe that doesn't make sense if you are vaporized over a timescale less than a human reaction time, 100ms or so, and probably that has happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or suicide bombers, or when the twin towers fell, or when a submarine catastrophically collapses, or certain falling deaths perhaps... But likely less than 0.5% of the people who have been alive, so when rounding to the nearest percent you would indeed say 100%.
All of that is for lols, probably the original quote attached some sort of caveat that was lost in the note-taking, but even without it it's reasonable for the reader to be expected to add the necessary caveat, “ignoring people who happen to very suddenly die in the prime of their lives,...”
Sure in some sense, and we can always be over pedantic in any topic. Maybe I felt in the trap here, though I still feel that the sentence is over selling the author point, which is not the end is the world either.
What I mean is, from what I get, the author point is that we shouldn't disregard people with permanent disabilities, as it's a faith we will all eventually reach.
While I agree with the ethical goal of not disregarding people with some disabilities, I wouldn't take the path of founding that on average human faith.
All the more the point is not how long will we agonize in an obviously near death situation, but how comfortably and socially integrated we can live once we have some disability, taking for granted that yes we will all necessary have the luxe of such a situation.
I'm really big on accessibility support. The demographic that I Serve tends to have a statistically higher level of challenges than your average audience.
One trick that I'm doing, in the app that I'm working on now, is that I have a "long-press help" feature.
I have a long-press gesture recognizer attached to the main view, and, when a long-press event is received, I find the shallowest view under that press, and examine it for the accessibility label and hint support. If it does not have any, I back up to its parent, etc.
If I find a label and hint, I use them to populate a popover, pointing at the target, and trigger a haptic. This popover has whatever is in the label (the popover title), and hint (detailed popover body).
This encourages me to make sure that as many items as possible, have accessibility support. It also is a lot easier to test, than running voiceover (which I need to do anyway, as sometimes, text does not speak the way we think).
So this is how I live my life - knowing that your good health and ability can always just end at no fault of your own. It still haunts me that my father had plans we always talked about, he was very active and loved going outdoors and travelling, mountain biking, hiking etc, he spent a crazy amount of time getting a Land Rover done up as a Camel Trophy replica for a big adventure we were meant to go on, and then basically got cancer and died couple months after his 50th birthday.
That's not to be gloomy and depressing - just that if you:
1) want to do something
2) have the physical health to do it
3) doing so won't put your family in a difficult situation financially or otherwise
Just do it. When my friends say "oh I'll do that when I'm retired" or even just "oh I'll start activity X maybe in a couple of years" I'm like.........why. You don't even know if you'll be fit and healthy next year, making plans for your retirement in 20 years or even postponing simple outdoor activities like mountain biking or camping for a couple years "when the time is better" is.....unreasonable to me.
Like the article says - we're all just temporarily abled. Maybe some of us if very lucky will remain abled for a long time. A lot of people will not. If you have the good fortune of being abled now, use it now.
Good advice, one of my dear family friends father passed away during Christmas in 2021.
I think the saddest thing was that they had been planning a trip to Spain and were putting it off to do other things instead, he was nearing retirement as well.
Since that day I've been more willing to do things instead of putting them off.
While I don't disagree there are certain activities (skydiving etc.) I'm happy to wait until retirement to try, given the consequences of something going wrong - if I miss out on my last decade or so of growing old peacefully, so be it. But I'm not quite so cavalier about it when I'm hoping I still have another 30 years of good health ahead of me.
Peter Attia explores the same notion in his recent book called "Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity". I haven't finished the book yet, but the key point so far is that our modern medicine, as he calls it "Medicine v2", is in need of an upgrade to v3. Most people expect to become frail or senile in their late years, but it doesn't need to be that way.
This new type medicine will focus on preventing injuries like that of Jim Nielsen's knee, as well as illnesses. For example, blood sugar levels considered normal have increased over the years as the general population got fatter. If your levels are measured 125 mg/dL, maybe you'll get a suggestion to change your diet. But if they're 126 mg/dL, suddenly this is viewed as serious and you're prescribed medications.
Attia argues that there's too much focus on putting out fires like treating a stroke, but not nearly enough prevention and almost no individual long-term course correction for patients. He also argues that we have all the tools to collect the data and to make it possible. The book also delves into the science of "the 4 horsemen of death" as he calls them: atherosclerotic disease, cancer, neurodegenerative disease and the type 2 diabetes with the related metabolic dysfunction.
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[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 339 ms ] threadNow imagine if your job wasn't sitting at a desk all day!
Actually let's be honest, a sedentary lifestyle makes injuries like this more likely.
> ...and tried something that, looking back now, maybe I’m too old for
I don't know how old he is (not that old judging by the photo, but maybe it's an old photo?), and I don't know what he tried to do, but thinking like that is a slippery slope. Regular exercise is more important when growing older, not less - otherwise, you might become disabled because of your sedentary lifestyle rather than because of an injury.
When you break your collarbone, the majority of your recovery is actually healing the joints and muscles that atrophied while you were in a sling (exceptions for surgery etc.) The bone takes care of itself, but your shoulder and arms freeze up and wither away alarmingly fast.
If you have a bad joint and the pain causes you to reduce movement, it's very worthwhile to see a physio and keep the joints moving while it heals, to avoid further damage.
And it's amazing how long these things can take to recover once you're in your 30s. I got patella tendinitis in both my knees, after a decade of sedentary indolence, followed by an extreme reentry into exercise. It took nearly a whole year to get my knees right.
At the end of May, I started suffering from Achilles tendonitis in one of my feet. Because I was exercising too vigorously too early in the morning while my body was not properly warmed up. Never a problem when I was younger.
It has been a long, slow recovery. With a few relapses into tightness because I tried to walk too fast or carry too much weight. Even now, almost 3 months later, I can just glimpse the light at the end of the tunnel.
I definitely took my health and my able-ness for granted when I was younger. Don't know how to teach my kids not to do the same.
zomglings: what have you done to help your ankle(s) recover?
1. This stretch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBafLfMXeis
2. Ice packs - avoid heat for sure.
And try to stay off your feet.
Last Monday, I think tightened a tendon on the front part of my right foot because I had tried to walk too fast the previous evening. Thankfully, understanding the principles of stretching and icing helped me recover from that in 2 days (it wasn't as serious as the Achilles tendon tightening).
Just take it slow and give yourself time to heal. The good news is that this isn't chronic (what the physiotherapist told me). After you heal, just take care to be stretched and warmed up before putting repetitive stress on your tendons.
Edit: When you are injured, the rest of your body has to put itself under extra stress when you move to offset the lack of mobility that the tendonitis causes. So you increase the probability of other injuries (in my case, the tightening of other tendons). Try to be super careful and super patient.
There are many other side effects. If this applies to you, you should never take this drug again.
i'm grateful that such a small experience helped me see so much.
He lost his job and sadly there are few things to help with those who are unable to communicate.
This all happened over a single weekend.
We're about a year in and he's gotten to the "I can do this myself, I'm not depressed" phase, haha!
I make sure to enjoy every day as much as possible now.
Squat, deadlift, overhead press, bench press, chinups, eat, sleep. It really is that easy.
Highly recommend it for anyone interested.
1. Any back pain I had disappeared completely.
2. When I have to lift something awkward (eg, furniture), I don't injure myself. If you can deadlift 200KG, awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.
3. It is really really handy being able to move heavy things.
4. Basically everything else improves. Going for a tough hike uphill? Your legs will be a lot less sore if you can squat 150KG. Need to hold your screaming baby for 40 minutes? Easy!
I used Starting Strength to learn how to squat roughly 12 years ago, do squats regularly and have never injured myself even temporarily doing squats although I use much less weight than grandparent does.
Check out "knees over toes guy", he has a wealth of good free information on knee recovery.
I'm 30 and I squat pain free twice per week despite 3 knee dislocations. Good luck friend
I myself had _terrible_ knee pain from squatting. Then my knee started randomly buckling when I would walk.
So I started filming myself. I also used TUBOW [3] to figure out that my knees were drifting far too forward. I corrected my technique accordingly, and started engaging the hips properly. My knee pain went away and I've been pain-free ever since.
It takes time to develop a good squat. Many people seem to be limited by their range of motion, especially in the ankles, at least to start off with.
In my personal experience, as a now more seasoned lifter, most people have knee pain in squats because they load the quads and arrest the squat early with the quads rather than hitting full depth. Once your hip crease is below the top of your kneecap, your quads are no longer bearing the load! If you're stopping the lift prior to that, then you're applying a ton of torque to the knee directly with the quad, rather than letting the much more robust posterior chain absorb the energy of the descent.
If you haven't tried squatting low-bar, you might give it a go - it makes it much easier to move with the posterior chain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs_Ej32IYgo is my single favorite squat video on the internet. Lots of really good info in it.
But, if you don't see improvement, I highly recommend seeing someone who can diagnose and correct how you move.
I do think weight training is important, but with physical limitations...
That goes away once the muscles gain strength.
I've had a personal trainer for years now and in my early 40s I can squat merrily with no pain. Also my neck and back pain have vanished, along with headaches I used to get that would start around the back of my neck and move over my head.
Strength training really is amazing. My only regret is 20 years as an adult not doing it.
My wife taking every excuse to touch my leg muscles is just an added bonus!
Over the shoulder throws and ball slams were my leg exercises for a long time.
Edit: the main thing was having a good pt who was aware of my injuries. They could tell me when to stop and when to push.
With those surgeries, starting under the supervision of a PT is a great idea, though. They'll know how to build you up safely.
Point being, if you don't know what's causing your knee pain, it's probably a good idea to figure it out first, then think about what could help.
Injury defence is a benefit of lifting that is undersold I think. By strengthening all the muscles that support your movement, and limbering up connective tissues you are much less likely to get injured in general life like you said.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...
As well as in the section above it.
Other recommended programs like 5/3/1 are not "more complex," that's a false dichotomy. They're just as simple but with different sets of exercises.
I train 5/3/1 now, I have for years, I love it, and I absolutely do not recommend it to beginners. I've tried. Their eyes glaze over when you start talking about "training maxes" and "periodization". They get confused and lose whatever sliver of motivation they had. Save the optimization for when they're bought in. Any beginner is gonna make progress on essentially any structured program just due to neuroadaptation. Premature optimization is the root of all evil.
I tried to start lifting multiple times. SL 5x5 is what actually made it click. Now that I know what I'm doing, I could write volumes on its flaws, but what I needed wasn't a technically optimized program, but one which gave me a clear goal for each workout and an easy way to see what the path forward looked like.
As the reddit beginner program correctly notes:
> The primary goal is to be a simple, easy to follow routine that will help beginners get into the gym, start training with the standard barbell lifts, and build a habit of going to the gym consistently. Consistency over time is the biggest point of failure in making progress, and the aim is to lower the barrier as far as possible to starting and staying consistent.
The point of a beginner program really isn't the volume moved or optimizing the particular split, but to give the beginner a structure on which to build routine and learn good habits. It helps no one to crap on Starting Strength, when it has an established history of achieving exactly that goal. Offering things like the reddit program as a potentially superior alternative is fine to the eager newbie, but telling people that Starting Strength is a bad way to start is just counterproductive.
My advice to every new lifter is that the best program for them is the one that gets them going back to the gym consistently, and I'll continue to stand behind that. It's not SS for everyone - and that's fine. But it is SS for a lot of people, and that's also fine.
That attributes success not to the program but to mindset. He may well be lifting despite lack of success.
Comparing 5/3/1 or a reddit post to SS indicates a complete lack of familiarity.
You can use dismissive like survivorship bias all you’d like, but end do the day Rip knows and runs a tier 1 program to get in life shape. It’s very difficult to read SS and execute it as designed and not come to that conclusion.
I don't mean that SS is a bad program, it works for lots of people and it's very accessible. But I also think it's way oversold and not magic.
It isn't the right starter program for everyone, but then, nothing is. The best program for the beginner is whichever one keeps you consistently showing up and moving forward.
Starting Strength remains the absolute best way for a novice to gain general-purpose strength.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200528135350/https://thefitnes...
You can't compare that to r/fitness in the least.
And it's infinitely fun to hit stuff
I will upvote it and add some context.
* thefitness.wiki is maintained by Reddit's r/fitness and it's a great resource.
* Parent had to use an archive.org link because thefitness.wiki long ago removed the post he linked to.
* I suspect they removed the post because thefitness.wiki now has a 'Basic Beginner Routine' which is similar to Starting Strength, and tells you this is what you should start with. https://thefitness.wiki/routines/r-fitness-basic-beginner-ro...
* I've done both BBR and SS. I prefer BBR but they're both fine places to start. They both basically have you cycle through the staple compound lifts and if you're not already trained this is the best thing you can do for your body. The health benefits of simply doing each compound lift at least once a week plus eating a ton of protein cannot be overstated, they are life changing.
* I'll editorialize here but I feel both BBR and SS are designed for younger, fitter, more hardcore "beginners" than me, especially SS. I was a 40+, out of shape desk jockey and the cadence at which they want you to increase weight was too much for me. Also with these big lifts you NEED to get the technique right or you WILL hurt yourself.
That's in addition to very gradually adding some sort of cardio like walks around the block. Being sedentary is going to be more of a struggle to overcome than strength - you will find that the strength you used to have will come back quickly when you start training again, but as a guy in the exact same boat, the cardiovascular side is the tough part. I am getting strong again really quickly but I am getting winded half way through a strength workout, let alone actually trying to jog.
I wouldn't recommend any changes to it, other than taking it easy if you need to.
The biggest struggle I had when I was totally out of shape was just how tough even a light workout was. It's fine to take it easy and not increase the weights you're lifting aggressively, for instance. Or even to go to the gym twice a week instead of three times. If it's not an easy and fun part of your life you'll fall off the wagon.
Basically you can be a physical wreck at 40, to a degree that a 23 year old guy can't even comprehend. All simply because you didn't exercise.
Just keep showing up regularly, doing the compound lifts SAFELY but heavy enough to tire out your muscles, and eating your protein (100g+ daily, there are formulas to calculate it precisely).
It might take a little longer for us older sedentary guys but everything will come together.
A good personal trainer (or physical therapist if you start hitting issues?) is absolutely worth it if you can get one, one advantage we older guys have is we're more likely to have the spare cash for this.
If you’re familiar with SS, what worked for me was a modified version. I threw out the linear progression and squat 3x times a week goals, and focused on lifting 3x a week come hell or high water and hit 5+ increases if I was able. 30-60 days of that, you’re back at an easy point to decide to get “really fit” or just stay active.
Day 1: squat 3x5, DL 3x10, lunges (the second week, DL 1x5, squat 3x10)
Day 2: bench 3x5, press 3x10, push-ups (swap bench and press same as above week 2)
Day 3: row 3x5, pull-ups, arms/w-e else.
I’m nowhere near when I was strong but my numbers make Me feel ok about things now, as I know I’m now out of the dangerzone of out of shape AF
I know reddit loves 5/3/1 and pretends that nothing else exists. Great example of the reddit echo chamber for something that isn't a political topic.
5x5 program got my bench to 275 when I was younger. I think it's fine.
Really after years of trying all these systems the only that will work for sure is getting in the gym consistently and lifting heavy. Everything else is mostly a distraction. Like min/maxing in wow
The nice thing about lifting is results speak for them self. If your going to keep posting this link as solid advice, maybe share your lifts...
So you barely lift...?
The person I was responding to is talking about SS, why 5/3/1 is more appropriate, and things of that nature.
If he MAXED out at a 225 bench, a 325 deadlift and a 275 squat, he has no business really talking about this sort of stuff. You don't even need a structured program to hit those numbers...you just need to do it.
> If he MAXED out at a 225 bench, a 325 deadlift and a 275 squat, he has no business really talking about this sort of stuff. You don't even need a structured program to hit those numbers...you just need to do it.
I think you have a severely skewed idea of what it is common to lift.
Your view of what can be done in the gym is distorted by the gym you are in.
Back Squat 275 2 rm
Front Squat 225 2 rm
Deadlift 375 2 rm
Bench 175 5x5
OHP 135 5x5
C&J 125 1x5
Snatch 105 1x5
With my primary program being SS and then SS like (do the set 5x5 or appropriate at the work weight, advance by appropriate increment). That's the rough master plan at least.
Not advising. Merely sharing my experience. Simplicity of adherence maximized adherence. Visible progress increased adherence.
If you're a couch potato dev who sits all day and does no physical activity - just doing random shit with your bodyweight or empty bar will get you sore for the first month.
Overloading yourself with pointless movements that are meant to target specific muscle groups is completely irrelevant for the first year. Go to gym - find heavy stuff you can pick up - try not to do anything stupid.
SS is great because it has a low number of movements, volume is irrelevant when you get sore from a barbell squat, learning how to lift is deceptively complicated (breathing/bracing/muscle activation).
The article keeps straw-manning "longterm" this and that - SS is your first year in the gym (or less). By the time you're trough with it, unless you're totally oblivious, you'll pick up on other stuff when you have the time. And you'll have a decent intuition of how to lift, understand recovery implications, consistency in training, and a decent base strength. It's a great base to get you started and have an achievable progression framework that doesn't require much tutoring or time.
I've seen plenty of people get from 0 to nice lifting strength in ~1 year by doing SS. The only thing that's relevant is consistency - if you come in 2-3x a week and do something difficult for an hour for a year - you will see results - it can be total fucking around - you will still get results. It's good to start with SS type exercises because those well defined movements target your entire body, and if you learn to execute them correctly you reduce your chance of injury.
TL;DR - for any newbie out there that's in bad shape and looking to start gym - save yourself time and avoid "optimal muscle development" crowd. None of those arguments apply to you and are completely irrelevant. Don't trust me ? Go to the gym and do 5x5 with an empty bar and see if you're sore after the workout.
I read the critique. It's basically "you don't do enough volume for certain exercises", "you'll end up doing too many squatting and looking funny", "their approach to stall isn't optimal".
It sounds like a www.bodybuilding.com forum rant. Someone arguing why micronized whey is superior to non-micronized. It's ultra-optimization.
If you're someone looking to get started, you're looking to get started, not optimize for a bodybuilding competition. If you like SS, and it gets you actually lifting, then it's good.
If you really get into it, then great! You can continue to refine what you do, read up on all the arguments, try different things. But if you just want a workout that makes you stronger that you can keep doing, then SS works fine.
It reminds me a bit of audio enthusiasts. Somebody wants an amplifier recommendation for a certain budget and people jump in telling them "you'll regret going solid state, the purity of tube amps can't be beat" and the person is like "I just want an amplifier so my kids can watch Disney in surround sound".
And the really good thing about SS is the focus on proper technique. It's more important than how much you lift.
> I just wanted to mention to readers that even squatting a ‘measly’ 50KG or deadlifting 30KG
Yes -- this is really important to contextualize.
Barbell resistance training is actually two things:
1) A method of exercise that has a variety of well-quantified health benefits including improvements in strength, bone density, and connective tissue. More muscle also means you can eat more without getting fat.
2) A competitive strength sport (generally called powerlifting; weightlifting usually refers to the explosive overhead lifts seen at the Olympics).
Your strength goals can, and should, depend entirely on your objectives. If you're aiming to compete, a 150KG squat and 200KG deadlift would put you around the median in the lowest male weight classes.
If you just want to get in shape, it's overkill.
But maybe its different if you look at amateurs.
0. https://www.strengthlog.com/deadlift-strength-standards-kg/
For example the beginner on there is 76kg. I think it'd be a bad idea for a guy who's 40 years old, untrained and out of shape to rock up and deadlift 50kg, even just for one rep. He wouldn't know what to expect, he'd get the form wrong, he'd probably hurt his back. People who aren't trained should start with the bar, sometimes they're better off starting with even less than the bar and that is fine!
30kg DL is 5kg on each side of a 20kg bar which is less than I've lifted my very first time and I was pretty unfit and I'm sure the vast majority of untrained people can lift that. Hell, that's easier than bar-only bench press, which most people can also easily do on their first try.
* 20kg-30kg makes sense for an untrained person's first lift, it sounds like we agree. With DL you need some plates on the bar to get the right height so 5kg bumper plates or something is common.
* All of this is still way below the numbers even for beginners on the site you linked, which again I stress, is a self-selected group of people who were hardcore enough to opt into a performance tracking app of some kind, this is way different from the general population.
* I actually don't agree that the vast majority of people could just bust out, let's say, 10 reps at 30kg of any lift. Women and older men who have never lifted? I really doubt it. A year ago it was hard for me to do 10 body weight squats, no bar no nothing, and most of my middle aged friends who have never exercised are probably still in the same boat. 40% of the US is obese... I think this perspective is biased basically towards young men (lets say under 40).
For me, bearing in mind all this injury discussion, I've focused on form 100%. When doing free weight exercises, this forces a whole bunch of other, secondary, "stabilization" muscles to some work. It's those, especially if they end up spending all day "locked" because of your posture, which can produce a lot of the minor pains of age, so give them a workout.
Each day, before anything else:
1. 3 mins stretching
2. 20 (real) situps (3 mins)
3. 10 pushups (2 mins)
I actually usually do a good bit more exercise more than this, but this is my minimum day starting routine, no matter where I am, or what I'm doing. It takes less than 10 minutes and keeps a bare minimum of strength in your lower back and arms. The lower back part is key for people who work in chairs all day. You can do a lot of types of exercise and still not maintain those lower back muscles which are so key to ensure your lumbar is protected.
You don’t need to hit the gym for an hour to feel the results. Like parent poster is doing, body weight exercises are terrific.
I would also like to say that planks are an extremely effective exercise.
Title is a catchy "burn belly fat" but it's more like core training + cardio. It looks scary but anyone (without a precluding condition) can do it.
It's only HIIT if you make it so, the key is to pace yourself according to your level, going slow if needed so as to complete each of the 30s.
If you can't do the full range, do a partial range, but do that range with proper form so as not to hurt yourself, don't force through it, it'll get better over time.
Aim for consistency, not short term record.
Side note: lubricate joints before (do rotations and flexing), stretch after exercise: stretching before increases risk of injury. If you really want to stretch before, do dynamic stretching, not static.
* doing only sit-ups and push-ups strengthens frontside massively, so front-back is not balanced, further increasing the forward arching position (starting with nerd neck) induced by long term sitting. Front training is important for all-day sitters as these muscles (which should be engaged all along the day but are not) atrophy, but overtraining front (vs back) amplifies the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlantbhXp4Y
> awkwardly leaning over your lawn mower to grab a 20KG bag of concrete is pretty easy.
True. Still, don't do it (or, I mean, do it the proper way)
Not to say that strength training isn't good for you of course. But it may not actually prepare you for things to come (unlike having a healthy family life, an identity outside work and physical fitness).
One of his siblings is in his early 60's, retired, and can only be described as "active". He's not powerlifting or anything like that but gym, cycling, gardening, every day or other day. He's on his second hip, soon to be third.
His other sibling is late 50's, also on their second hip about to get their third. They're limited to 2-300 yards of walking, can't really stand unaided for long periods of time, struggle with their sleep, etc etc.
The easiest comparison is that the older one is, and always has been more active. Sure it's complicated, sure you can't prepare for an unexpected diagnosis, but I'd you're 60 with no active health scares, your quality of life is going to be dictated by how much you looked after yourself, not just luck.
same right back at you.
just because at some point you might (or I guess you and the author are arguing will) get injured doesn't mean strengthening yourself is invalid. in fact healthier and in better shape you are the less likely you are to suffer debilitating injury.
tweaking my strong knee that is used to squatting heavy weights and otherwise supporting active lifting is way different than my father tweaking he's knee with artificial joint.
at least for me the problem is lettings things get worse. I should learn to seek help/corrective action right away, but I always just want to "see if I can ride it out" which can then turn into months of unnecessary suffering with long lasting issues. pre-emptively starting resistance training is very beneficial for most people.
Lifting weights isn't going to do much to prevent your hearing going bad, or eyes degrading and needing corrective lenses, or not being able to move otherwise you'll wake the newly born baby who's finally gotten to sleep.
This article is a rebuttal against the myth that "accessibility" is for "other people", that "disabled" and "abled" are two different camps, and accessibility tech is only something used by completely blind people in wheelchairs, which will never happen to me. We're all just temporarily abled. Even throughout the day we go through a range of ability with our physical body - even if it's just needing to respond to a phone while cooking and your hands are covered in raw chicken.
Lifting weights won't help you with your eyes or ears, but being in better physical health translates to better mental health, which translates to better ability to cope with all limitations.
People who just sit still as they age deteriorate incredibly fast in more ways than one.
I guess this article can be eye opening for anyone who has lived in a bubble without them, their relatives, or friends suffering from any issues, but that has to be exceedingly rare.
You can prepare for injuries. You can strengthen your body and joints to prevent physical injuries, you can keep active mind to prevent mental issues, you can wear PPE to protect from most sudden sight and hearing losses. You should wear gloves while handling raw meats, it is more hygienic and makes cleaning a lot faster and more pleasant.
Eating a good meal today doesn’t prevent you from going hungry 6 months from now.
Of course you know how to put food in your mouth and eat, but do you understand how to deal with the physical/emotional/mental challenges of living as a person who’s without enough food?
Sure it does. Angus Barbieri fasted for 382 days successfully.
In the same vein, working on one's body strengthens future potential disabilities, but not all, such as sight and hearing. However, most people who become disabled later in life begin to have orthopedic injuries rather than completely losing sight and hearing, which of course they lose but not to the same extent as getting arthritis etc. So the point of strengthening one's body is still valid.
I think we are so far ideologically from each other that we can't even communicate. I can not follow this logic at all.
I still do resistance training, but with higher reps and less weight. Not incrementally increasing the weight as SS prescribes.
1. Pull: such as pullup
2. Push: towards one arm one leg pushup
3. Legs: Pistol up (=1 leg squat)
4. Core: V-ups and bridge works for me.
Once we went carting with the company. Everybody was sore afterwards in all kinds of places (software devs :)). I was fine.
[1] https://www.hybridcalisthenics.com/routine
My father was admitted to hospital for something, and spent a few weeks on the ward. When he was released he was super frail and had to use a walker. Losing strength is easy, getting it back (especially in your 80's) is damn hard.
At 40, I was stronger than I was as a high school wrestler. I loved lifting. I remember casually picking up a piece of equipment that took two burly guys to lift and jumping down from a pickup with it.
But over the course of several years, I picked up several small but persistent injuries lifting. Two can be worked around. One makes it very hard to squat for more than a few weeks of training. None of the injuries, fortunately, affects me noticeably in daily life. But I'll never wide-grip bench press again, either.
When I was coming to terms with these injuries, I had a long talk with the oldest natty lifters in my gym. The powerlifers were all dealing with various chronic injuries. (Seriously, Rippetoe has published a bit of his medical history. He's a mess of injuries.)
But you know who was still lifting in their 60s and even 70s, injury-free for decades at a stretch? The natty bodybuilders. One of the oldest looked over at me one day, and said, "You know, I don't like the risk/reward on heavy squats. You do them flawlessly for years, and then one day, a group of muscle fibers decides to misfire for a moment when you're under the bar."
So, enjoy Starting Strength, or whatever other beginner program Reddit likes this year. And the two Starting Strength certified coaches I've known were excellent. Good technique is absolutely worth it. But once you've gotten those sweet beginner gains, talk to the old lifters, and think long and hard about where you want to go next. Because nothing is as important as remaining injury-free. And every older powerlifter I met was dealing with chronic injuries.
Once gains get difficult, think about what you really want out of lifting.
Overall injury incidence in strength sports is very low. But if you do it to compete, maybe there is an argument to be made that pushing the limits increases it.
Overall though, the much greater risk is to not train. Whether you do barbell movements or machines is not a determinant of of health outcomes, as far as we know.
I would not put stock in anecdote without some numbers on injuries among non-competing powerlifters.
Rest well, eat enough, don't push it when something is feeling a "little weird" with some muscle. My worst injury as a beginner 10+ years ago was to finish a deadlift routine after feeling a muscle slightly pulled after the first rep, I had a bad lower back pain for weeks that left me uncomfortable doing anything: laying down, sitting, walking, etc.
If you don't know any bodybuilders I'd recommend getting a good coach on your beginner phase to fix your form, you don't need to keep a coach after you learn the basics, and bad form is the #1 source of injuries at lowest levels. Starting Strength is a decent beginner routine but over time you'll want to add some auxiliary exercises to work smaller muscles, in my routine I like to start the training session with big lifts (deadlift, squat, standing barbell rows, chin ups/pull ups, bench press, and overhead presses) and after those I follow with auxiliary movements (face pulls, dumbbell presses/curls, calves, etc.).
I chose to not push myself past a level I got comfortable with, never tried a deadlift heavier than 220kg, my squats hover between 130-140kg, bench press around 80kg, military press around 55-60kg. I feel strong enough and been injury-free for years, it's a good maintenance level and my goal with lifting has always to just keep mobility in older age, not to keep growing muscles/strength as far as I could push.
And of course there's the variable of age as well.
An example, when I was trying to push my bench press over 87,5kg I was going with 1-2 sets of warm-up (~8-10x 70kg then adding 5kg to the 2nd warm up), followed by: 1 set of 5x85kg, 5x87,5kg and trying to go 3x90kg but noticed I was failing the 3x90kg set for 4+ weeks in a row, I kinda knew it was going to take more effort and a different approach than just my very basic way to increase load, I was happy with lifting 87,5kg on the bench and just stopped trying to push it further.
Age has definitely affected my recovery time, stamina, etc. but because I've been lifting on-off since my teens playing tennis, and only focusing on strength training for its own sake later in my 20s. I do have a "baseline" that I can reach in about 4-6 months even when I stop training completely for a while, the strength you gain changes your muscles (I think it creates extra nuclei in muscle cells, unsure how true that is, lots of pseudoscience in fitness-world) and it comes back. That's one of the main reasons I recommend all of my sedentary friends to try lifting for a while, it will help when one is older.
The problem is once people get to that - why would they stop?
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230645/
Now I believe that a lot of physical training isn't that healthy. And if you put your whole personal identity on your physical abilities then when your abilities start to decline, as they naturally do from age 40 and up, you may spiral out of control and literally die.
I believe he suffered from an illness, but in general I suppose having a full-contact punching and kicking bouts with gigantic men isn't very good for your long-term health anyway. Especially in Kyokushin where they have (had?) no weight classes.
I actually don't think it is the direct damage from fighting that gets them but more the inability to stop and scale your commitment to what you can and can no longer do.
In Isshinryu, there's none of that. You stop the punch/kick before the joint goes to lock. The stances are much shallower. The movements are less dramatic. My sensei told me it is much more sustainable this way, and many of the old taekwondo folks end up with joint issues specifically in knees and elbows. I don't know if it's related, but my knees and elbows are the two parts of my body which are most problematic.
It's also possible my taekwondo instructor just didn't know about this, that was a long time ago.
Performance enhancing drugs
When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.
And in any case, I wouldn't take Rippetoe as an example of good scientific programming these days. It's good for getting people into lifting, but Starting Strength has a powerlifting fetish for no good reason, and the advice to aggressively gain weight is also not appropriate for everyone (GOMAD etc.). Then recently I saw a Starting Strength video in which they claimed that the really grindy reps at the end of the set are the ones that make all the difference (for strength anyway), which as far as I'm aware is false and probably harmful, as you can do way more training volume with less risk of injury (I would expect) if you keep some reps away from failure.
The gym is generally a safe hobby, but scientific bodybuilding, with its large sets, slow eccentrics and focus on the stretch is definitely the safest way to lift for longevity.
Yeah, don't do GOMAD unless you're a 17-year-old teenage boy with a BMI of 18.5 who wants to be a linebacker or something. Some of the Starting Strength advice is... very situational, to put it politely as possible.
Their coaching certification, however, means more than 95% of the "personal trainer" certifications you'll see in the average gym.
> When you say "powerlifters", are those people who compete or just people who train? I can imagine this to make a difference.
The oldest powerlifer I knew well who wasn't dealing with chronic injuries was a 40-year-old women's masters competitor. She competed around 135 or 139 lbs bodyweight, I think? She was absolutely a beast, with near flawless form and an excellent coaching eye.
Besides her? Almost every other long-term powerlifter I met was nursing some injury. But what really stood out to me was the absence of old powerlifters in my local gyms. There were old lifters in amazing shape. But none of them were grinding out the really heavy squats and deadlifts.
But don't take my word for it. All I'm recommending is that when new powerlifters max out their newbie gains, they take a good hard look around their local gym, and see who has decades of happy lifting under their belt. Ask those folks about their training plans and injury histories and PED use. You may see different patterns than I did. But for lifelong fitness, avoiding chronic injuries is everything.
Seems like in your 30s you start to realize the limits and tradeoffs and by your 40s most have accepted that longevity is the main goal - if it’s not too late and they destroyed a knee or back or something else.
In general, for a compound lift (squat/bench/deadlift/overhead press) most would consider newbie gains exhausted once you can no longer linearly add weight/reps on a weekly basis (assuming a normal weekly schedule). This is the point when various forms of periodization (waving weight/reps/frequency up/down in many possible ways) need to start to support the increase of weight/reps over time.
This is likely to happen after about 3 months.
I don't really agree that the kind of weights you can achieve after 3 months pose a meaningfully elevated injury risk, unless your form is terrible or you have some existing condition.
In other words, train for power (rather than hypertrophy), but instead of using barbells, use dumbbells or machines, to minimize the risk of injury?
Anyway with most machines you won't be able to load it heavy enough quite soon.
I think there is also happy middle ground where you train for strength but not into extremes - you progress at slower pace and prioritize form. I would say bodybuilders can also be strong and healthy but they can't use that strength properly (because of the type of training they do) and destroy their health with drugs.
I mean, if they are the type that are using steroids and such things, sure. The other sort that are into drugs just gets stoned and lift weights. The risks just aren't the same: Sure, you are going to do some damage with pot, but not the same sort and you'll certainly not be so much worse than the person that gets stoned and plays games a lot of the day or gets stoned and works at a gas station.
(I worked with an ex-professional body builder: He was the second type and couldn't compete with the steroid crowd. He was OK with that)
The thing machines have that free weights don't are in-built safeties, either by design or as a discrete component (e.g. smith machine). The only machine I can think of that you can get seriously injured on is a leg press machine, whereas there are a multitude of ways to hurt yourself with free weights, especially any exercise where you're under the bar. I say this as someone who has historically trained with a ton of emphasis on the Big 5/Golden 5 compound movements (i.e. not machines). The safety aspect is a big reason casual fitness clubs (e.g. Planet Fitness) have no barbells on the premises.
I don't have injury stats on machines versus free weights. Almost all the serious lifters I knew (bodybuilders or powerlifters) did plenty of free weight work. This included one 67-year-old bodybuilder in amazing shape who'd been injury-free for decades. He used a mix of free weights and machines, but he didn't squat the kinds of weights the serious powerlifters did, either.
You can make yourself a lot stronger than the average person with pretty low risk of injury, if your technique is good. As far as I can tell, you can do it pretty safely with a squat rack, some safety bars, a bench, a bar, and some weights. According to BroScience(TM), lol, the advantage of free weights is that if you have good technique, then you wind up working large parts of your body as a unified system, or something. (Bro science is like blog posts on unit testing; everyone's got a theory and almost nobody has numbers.)
But once you hit "a lot stronger than the average person", where do you go next? Do you maintain? Do you keep trying to lift more? Do you decide to go for a bit of hypertrophy?
And that's where I think it makes sense to talk to the old lifters, and look for patterns. Don't believe me. I'm just some guy on the Internet. Go talk to the old guys who've been doing it for 40 years and who aren't wearing tons of wraps and tape. By the time you need to make these decisions, you'll likely know some old guys at your gym, anyways.
So my completely uneducated opinion is, machines might be worse in the long run.
One group goes after the raw numbers regardless of aesthetics.
The other is mostly aesthetics.
You can't go for aesthetics without chasing numbers to some degree. You do, after all, have to build that muscle you want to show off.
- you will never achieve anything resembling impressive as an amateur natty no matter what you do. PED use is so common now they're the standard for comparisons
- your pay check does not depend on achieving certain results. Look at the pros when they stop competing, they know it's not worth pushing it any more
- any persistent injury significantly affects your life quality. A very mild shoulder RSI makes sleeping and sex complicated
- training 3 times a week for decades offers plenty of opportunities to make mistakes so you need to leave a big margin for safety
- 80/20 rule applies to the effort and results and to the risk and rewards
It's better to not work out and not be injured than it is to work out and be injured, so the focus should first be on avoiding injury and second on actually going out and doing stuff. Same reason we watch safety videos before we do the thing they concern.
Once you start making gains it does become addictive especially if (like me) you have some uh let’s call it mental health challenges.
After sustaining a number of injuries I finally learned to stop looking at the numbers, to stop comparing myself on exrx or symmetric strength. I just go to the gym and have fun. I still do the major movements but I always make sure to leave a little in the tank. I always listen to my body first and foremost. If it doesn’t feel right, it doesn’t feel right.
I have different approach, with similar result so far to those bodybuilders without actually doing it - don't lift your max, but do it with free weights as much as possible, in good form (the most important bit long term). You don't need to look ridiculously bulked, say well-defined is more than enough, even for women's attractivity. Those massive muscles always hide very unhealthy eating habits (ie > 200g of protein every day will mess up your organs and joints badly over decades) and tons of injuries, plus they are very hard to maintain if you actually want to be happy in your life and do other stuff.
I strongly recommend removing some weights and adding repetitions, you can still reach failure threshold if you want, but in much safer way. Easier to maintain perfect form for each exercise too. You mention lifting heavy stuff in weird positions - that's recipe for injury regardless of age or shape, rather just be a bit smarter with lifting.
What is much better to be able to have some stamina - weightlifting on the limits alone ain't going to give you much of that (saw more than once a ripped guy who didn't do any cardio trying to make >1000m altitude difference hike, well he struggled a lot, on a way up and then knee pain started say in the middle of descent).
There are tons of things apart from main, most visible muscle groups that you really want to train - small stabilizing muscles, tendons, ligaments, joint flexibility, and stamina for all of those. Body is a complex and interconnected system, no point overdeveloping just few main parts for the show or mirror look, rather work on everything.
I myself am pretty happy with where I'm at and don't plan on trying to squat 300KG. I appreciate there's a higher risk of injury pushing myself to my limits. And the amount of investment (time in the gym, getting a coach or learning enough to program for that level) is not worth it.
I'm not suggesting that everyone goes and tries to become a powerlifter. I'm just suggesting that for anyone who isn't strong and is looking to become strong quickly, Starting Strength is the best method in my opinion. And as others have pointed out, going from a 20KG to an 80KG squat will make a huge improvement to your life, and is very manageable for pretty much anyone.
Many cultures and countries ranked as healthy, and I mean overall like children to elderly are places where people walk everywhere. They aren't all power lifting or even going to gyms.
Strength training is good but overall daily activity is best.
Someone that goes for regular long walks is better off than a powerlifter, I doubt you would consider that a convincing argument against the gym.
One observation I had was that people coming to the gym to spend majority of their time on the treadmill are mostly women. I'm not sure if it is to lose weight, or simply because with infrastructure hostile to walking, the likelihood of problematic encounters increases greatly. Though I wouldn't feel entirely safe walking around at 23:00 without my dog either.
The via media comes with difficulty as it requires reason and discernment, whereas extremes are easy and mindless, and people either under-exercise (the more common case) or over-exercise.
But historically, I would argue that we see more extreme "fitness" fads today than we did previously. Really dumb stuff that no longer has anything to do with health or fitness or beauty and more to do with some weird obsession.
His approach to shoulder training might be of interest too if one of your injuries is shoulder related
But to take an example, there's not much you can do to rehab a partial TFCC tear in your 40s. There just isn't enough blood flow. I could get surgery, but my TFCC is already better than 90% of surgical outcomes.
It rarely affects me in daily life, but I can't train wide grip bench presses without immobilizing the wrist with a steel brace.
Once you hit 40, you can still get strong. But sooner or later, a doctor's going to sit down with you and say, "There's nothing I can do to fix this that won't make things worse."
But as another doctor told me, "Look, you have a choice. As you age, you can spend too much time talking to your orthopedic surgeon, or too much time talking to your cardiologist." Physical activity is essential, but it comes at a price. Staying as injury-free as you can manage is everything.
I have no interest in competing/fairness, the only weight training I do is a) very light and b) just to have slightly stronger muscles to make the life I want to live easier (from going on nice walks to cycling to being able to pick up a heavy object without stress etc.)
So I don't care about stats or achievements or how my muscles look, but if there was a pill that could make me stronger for less effort without any side effects or risks I'd be more than happy to take it. But I guess that's still a pipe dream and I just need to keep on putting up with doing exercise more than I particularly want to?
That said, one supplement (not a PED) that is widely used and well-studied in the body-building world is creatine. Just make sure you drink enough water, as it causes you to retain a bit of water (I learned this the hard way, waking up with a bloody nose it dried my sinuses out so much).
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-creatine/art-20...
But for a beginning lifter, I wouldn't bother. Early on, literally every single workout will bring you bigger gains than creatine will. Do your 3x5 or 5x5 sets, go back a few days later, add 5 pounds. Easy.
Creatine makes the most sense once you've been lifting for a few months, and once you've figured out your diet, and your progress is starting to slow. As I understand it, it's tweaking your intramuscular energy storage just enough to turn a 9 rep set into a 10 rep set. Which is a good deal once you've exhausted your newbie gains.
But it's not going to do much for someone who's exercising casually.
Creatine will let you push an 8 rep set to 9 or 10. And when every pound on the bar is bought with two weeks of complicated periodization, that little bit helps. And creatine is allowed by basically every athletic league.
Real PEDs are a whole different ball game. Much bigger risks.
at some point it becomes less about progress and more about being injury free and CONSISTENT (which can't happen without being injury free lol). it scares me that this margin becomes even less as you get older. i can imagine someone in their 70-80s being diligent and all it takes is some minor injury that takes you out for a week to begin a downward spiral.
I started with a strength programme called Greyskull LP which descends from the Starting Strength school of thought (although far superior IMO). I got some really good results with it. I'm naturally quite strong, so it took less than a year before I was doing things like 200kg deadlifts. I would watch other natties in the gym and, according to my own observations, I was usually the strongest guy in the room.
But the easy progression quickly stops. Once you get to lifting 2.5x your bodyweight off the floor, or dipping with 100kg attached to your waist, it starts to become really hard. I mean, yes, you've trained for it, but it's still incredibly taxing on the system and, let's be honest, not reflective of any real work anyone might carry out. Real work involves lots of toing and froing, not lifting one enormously heavy weight then going home.
I developed a really hard to change mindset that said if it's not heavy there's no point. I was still doing 3x5 reps of everything, often to failure, after years and years of lifting and never making any strength gains anyway. I eventually developed an elbow injury thanks to too many weighted chin ups. I prided myself on being able to chin up 3 plates when most people can't even do bodyweight. Well, now I can't do bodyweight either (not without pain at least).
I made the change after watching some of Scott Herman's more recent videos on Youtube. He's now 39 and still in excellent shape. Unlike most on Youtube, I believe he is natty too. He does high volume work which, naturally, will be nowhere your strength limit. I was still doing 3x5 reps, now I'm doing 3x8 with drop sets. Way more volume, way more variety of movements, way less weight. It's been so much better.
I'd still recommend a starting strength programme to beginners, but you really need to get off it after a year or so and decide whether you want to be a bodybuilder or strength athlete. And before you decide to be a strength athlete, look at seasoned strength athletes and decide if you want to look like them when you are their age, or not.
As for juiced bodybuilders/athletes, don't even consider it. You think you'll get more women (be honest, that's why you do it). But, in fact, the love of your life doesn't care how strong you are or if you are 10% body fat. All you'll do is destroy your body. Lifting heavy just destroys it even more (see Ronnie Coleman).
Agreed. It also occurred to me while reading your comment that there are a lot of parallels to this in the auto enthusiast world- guys going deep into debt on a depreciating asset, sometimes overtly to look cool for women, when in reality all they end up with is a sausage-fest of guys rubbernecking and coming up to them in parking lots.
I got a good base of coaching in high school and later in life came back to lifting through Starting Strength. Recently I’ve gotten a lot out of Stronglifts 5x5 and a modest garage barbell setup to reach kind of a local maxima. I could keep going with it, and it would be nice to continue taking advantage of the simplicity of that program to stay in shape (or move to madcow, or something similar) but there’s no value to me in getting any bigger/stronger - I’d rather “diversify” a bit into other activities and avoid the injuries that come with heavy weights, but I would like to maintain what I’ve got.
I’m not sure if the answer is simply “just stop increasing weights” or if there’s something better I can do that would further reduce chance of injury, conserve energy for other activities, save time etc.
My experience is that it becomes equally fun for a data driven person to start tracking aerobic performance (rowing was where I started because we have a C2 at home, and then diversified into running and biking).
I'm guessing DB is dumbbell (and bar is barbell).
Oly is Olympic weightlifting, a set of weightlifting movements/lifts. In various workouts, like in dieting, some folks decide on a subset of all the things (movements, food) which is good (or bad) and focuses on them. Powerlifting is another opinion of a good set of movements which focuses on weightlifting abilities.
DB is indeed dumbbell, yes
C2 is apparently Concept2, a rowing machine
Those who do it tend to just refer to it as weightlifting (one word), but we sometimes say Oly weightlifting when talking to others to avoid confusion with the more general weight lifting/lifting weights, which encompasses powerlifting(another competitive sport consisting of bench press, squat and deadlift), weightlifting and general resistance training.
Weightlifting is more dynamic and requires a lot of skill to control the timing and momentum, whereas powerlifting is closer to a test of raw strength(not that it doesn't require some technique).
One thing I learned: When I was peak-ego my DL/SQ/BP was ~1300lbs. I remember actively thinking the people on the machines and especially the "Smith" machine were wasting time.
Then after awhile, I switched gyms and noticed the biggest/oldest guys were not olympic lifting, they were all on machines. I got to talking to them and they said the same thing, they weren't chasing power numbers, they wanted to stay safe and the machines allowed them to do that.
You can still get injured on a leg press machine, but it offers most of the advantages without the huge risk of 350lbs dropping on your neck.
Lifting should always be taken seriously and "your muscles misfiring" is not a legitimate excuse for a lapse in judgment and lifting more then you should.
Citing from Bigger, Leaner, Stronger by Michael Matthews, he points to a review of 20 studies performed by Bond University that found the average injury rates for the following activities:
1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours
2. Crossfit, Olympic Weightlifting, Powerlifting - 2-6 / 1000 hours
3. Long Distance Running - 10 / 1000 hours
4. Hi Impact Sports (Hockey, Football, Soccer, Rugby) - 6 - 260 / 1000 hours
I'm personally committed to progressively lifting heavy until I turn 40 at which point it becomes more difficult to add muscle. At that point, I'll look into transitioning into a sustainable program that will let me preserve as much muscle as possible as I age with minimal risk.
This seems about right? Let's say you powerlift 6 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. (This is believable after a year or so.) That's 300 hours. And you're picking up an injury every 170-500 hours. That seems... plausible?
What matters is how quickly and completely those injuries heal. If you tweak something, maybe you can just ice it, and maybe you're all healed up in two weeks, no problem.
But once you've been powerlifting seriously for a year, you're moving around real weight. Granted, you know you can handle the weight, you're moving it carefully, and you've got safety bars to catch anything you drop.
But some of the injuries you might pick up don't go away so easily. And over 40 years of heavy lifting, those numbers can add up.
> 1. Bodybuilding - 1 / 1000 hours
This represents a 2-6 fold reduction in injury. And you'll be working slowly with lighter weight, so physics probably offers fewer chances for disaster.
So I'd guess that bodybuilding has a lower baseline injury rate, and possibly less severe injuries on average?
Get to squat 150kg is highly likely to cause back injuries for a vast majority of the people.
Whereas lifting 50% of max reps with higher reps will get you similar benefits, in most cases even more muscle growth, without the high risk of injuries.
I wouldn't recommend deadlifts. The worst part about it is that everyone always says "you didn't have proper form!" but, in that case, if you can follow all the advice in the program and still have bad form, it just sounds like a way to dismiss injuries as "your fault, not the program's".
So, "it's really that easy" actually causes pain that I also feel when I hold a cup of tea.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't start lifting weights, but no matter what you do, you can be (temporarily) disabled for any reason, which is precisely what the article is about.
I have a weight-machine and a few barbells in my house, and use them 2-3 times a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. I am older, I have no six-pack, I am not particularly muscular. It's not about that. It's about keeping what you have, and keeping what you have reasonably fit.
Muscles support your joints. Weight training also strengthens the ligaments and tendons that hold everything together. If you do it as "circuit training" (only a few seconds between different exercises), it also serves as cardiovascular exercise. All of this is important for everyone, especially as you get older...
Master motor control, balance and ability to control your own weight. The problem with lifting is no matter how good your form is, injuries are inevitable and made worse due to the extra resistance.
Other body weight exercises like push-ups are a great supplement though.
If there are no weights involved, I'd recommend people just do yoga instead, but leave hand stands out for a long time.
Now obviously I wouldn’t start out with hand stands since you need to be in pretty good shape (like a pull up you probably can’t do it unless you’re in decent shape anyways).
It’s certainly safer than having literally hundreds of pounds above your neck.
I spent a very long time training for hand stands (pressing up) , it is an advanced skill.
In Ashtanga yoga it is considered an advanced level which some yogis may never achieve.
Last year he slipped a disk putting gas in his car. Backs are really arbitrary and you can do a lot to finesse the dice, but you're still gonna roll snake eyes on something.
It's essentially: Day A: - Squat 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP - OHP / Bench (Alternate) 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP
Day B: - Deadlift, 1x5 AMRAP - OHP / Bench (Alternate) 2x5, 1x5 AMRAP
So you are only squatting twice a week and deadlifting once a week, versus SS with squats everyday.
A typically schedule following M-W-F for two weeks could look like the following: M: Squat & Bench W: Deadlift & OHP F: Squat & Bench
M: Squat & OHP W: Deadlift & Bench F: Squat & OHP
I highly recommend purchasing 1.25 plates so that you can increase weights by 2.5 pounds versus 5. I did this for bench and OHP and that was when I really started seeing gains!
AMRAP stands for as many reps as possible and works as a good metric for moving up a weight or staying at a weight. If you do 5 at the end, you may want to stay. If you do 10 or more, you can double the weight increase.
The other cool part of AMRAP is that you now have another metric besides weight - you can try to break previous rep records, especially if you deload and are working your way back up to previous working weights.
At the end of the day, sticking with any LP would be good. I just like GSLP since I'm not squatting every day.
All that being said, I started off with SS and that was what got me to a 315 pound squat.
Doing GSLP is what got me to 220.5 bench and a 135 OHP (all for reps)! I think the tiny incremental plate (1.25 plates) and AMRAP sets are what helped me the most.
I say this as a guy who still works a Starting-Strength-based program. Power lifting is great--it changed my life. But it's NOT a solution to disability and it's NOT a foolproof prevention. The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.
> The implication that "if people just got off their asses and did some exercise they wouldn't be disabled!" is disgusting.
I don't know how you got that implication. It seems like you agree that lifting is great. Many people don't do resistance exercise. The article itself is about the process of aging, and resistance exercise helps as a prophylactic. We all understand it's not a solution to all disability. But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.
Great! What's the problem? (While we're talking about implications, your comment does seem to imply you haven't read the linked article.)
Aging is relevant to the author's case of disability because they mention that they " tried something that, looking back now, maybe [they're] too old for". But a lot of disability has nothing to do with age.
I think the point of bringing up age is that a lot of able people are selfish and assume that disability is someone else's problem, when in fact, the vast majority of people will become disabled in their lifetimes.
Do you really not see how bringing up a way to prevent disability (which is at best, a small-percentage probablistic solution) sounds like an attempt to refute that point?
> But if it turns some people on to lifting, then net-net there's less disability in the world.
Sure, and that would be a good thing. But you've gotta understand that in every conversation about disability, many people's only contribution to the conversation is to talk about how people could be less disabled, with almost no non-disabled people willing to engage with actually accommodating disability.
It's at best extremely condescending, as if people who are disabled aren't trying their best to not be disabled. There are exceptions, of course, but even in those cases, I tend toward more compassion because there's likely underlying mental illness going on there.
Fundamentally, there just isn't a massive societal problem with people not doing enough to not become disabled. The problem is we don't do enough to accommodate disability. Constantly bringing up ways we can avoid being disabled is insensitive and distracts from the real problems and real solutions.
At a more basic level: stop trying to present your solutions to a problem you don't have, and listen more to people who have the problem. This is particularly true if your "solution" is to arrogantly tell people how to not have the problem.
The point of this blog post is to elicit empathy, something often lacking in healthy people who cannot envision themselves suffering from some ailment. Eventually everybody's bodies and minds will fail. Whatever specific mitigation strategies you deploy will eventually become ineffectual and your capabilities will degrade, either by means of age or disease or accident or all three.
We can and should do more to make things better for people who have differing levels of physical and mental capabilities because it is the right thing to do, but if that isn't enough, we should also do it out of our own self interest.
I'd suggest that bringing out "just get strong with these easy steps" as a response to a person who suffered an injury is particularly missing the point.
America’s model is where the UK, Canada, and other subsidized healthcare systems are going. Our doctors make way more, but there is recognition that every doctor is not a replaceable cog - the good ones build up names and reputations for themselves. We have quietly built a large system of cheaper options including tele health, urgent care, and primary care (like CVS Minute Clinic) while enabling nurse practitioners to handle ever more procedures and tests. This is how the system will have to scale given the increasing safety net and huge immigration inflows.
Medical care costs money. I’d rather have choice and options than pretend it’s free, which it isn’t.
The hope of most poor coming into the US isn't that the US is better for poor people, it's that by coming to the US they can stop being poor. And in most cases it doesn't work.
In fact, the American dream of "anyone can become rich" is a lie which exists specifically to justify why we've let America become such a shitty place for poor people. After all, why do we have to improve conditions for the poor if they can just become rich? It's their own fault they've chosen to be poor--they must like it, right?
Really, rich people have no idea what's going on with poor people, and you should really stop talking about things you don't understand.
US is really good for the top 10%, who can afford it. However, a minimum wage worker has a really tough time getting good results because the cost is astronomical even with decent insurance.
Yet some folks still choose to seek out the world famous brain surgeon when they desire that extra quantum of assurance and if they can afford it.
What does the mere existence of 'expensive private clinics' in X countries have to do with the diminishing return on higher priced brain surgeons?
It's possible for at least 1 person in any given country to hop on a plane or recruit world experts to come, with enough money, even in Somalia or Afghanistan, which don't have functioning systems of any kind.
I wasn't making any claims to the contrary, if you misread.
Well there are other ways to scale - look to China' system - which has a massive throughput of patients in large regional medical centers - primary doctors there see like hundreds of patients a day - but don't do anything but recommend and if you can't get it resolved, they have an escalation mechanism where you see more and more specialized doctors (same day) until you either stump the most specialized docs or they have an action plan for you.
So you could automate the work away or you could create a system that scales through production-line efficiency.
First, it was enlightening for me to see how she navigated through our site using her screen reader.
Second when she landed on our booking page we got so embarrassed because she couldn’t use our date picker. A basic HTML version would have done the job. But a few weeks back we had debated over which fancy jquery date picker plugin we should use without considering the impact. It was fancy alright, yet it wasn’t usable at all for this user.
I learned and felt many things that day as an engineer. Thinking in depth, across many different personas is a difficult thing to do, let alone building a tool that works well.
It seems fairly technical and challenging to learn, but I feel it would make sense for abled engineers to practice using those.
I personally wouldn’t even know where to start, I only enabled the screen reader a few times by mistakes and have no idea how I could learn to be effective with it if I need to at some point in my life.
Great way to test your app for accessibility.
VoiceOver on Mac or NVDA on Windows are good, free options.
There's an accessibility playlist on Youtube that provides an introduction to both:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R-6WvAihms&list=PLNYkxOF6rc...
A more in-depth demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0m7VEHoXMI
I may try out during the weekend.
That is the only sensible format for dates, and while all developers probably agree on that it isn't a given that all your users will.
* 32 CE, if you want to really get down to it
"Just localization" isn't "just". Many people have the wrong localization on their computers. Partly because they don't always communicate in their native language. But also because google et. al. are doing such a piss poor job of it.
It is also always weird if your are on an international site. Enter everything in English and then suddenly is expected to enter some fields in your native language.
You are moving the goalposts.
> "Just localization" isn't "just". Many people have the wrong localization on their computers.
Think about this for a minute longer. Do you have an example or scenario for the use of a Web site where the author can fall into a pit of success (despite having the user's wrong localization) on all things except for dates and that would be broken by allowing* this date input method?
Even ignoring that:
What I said was that "any permutation of full year, full month name, and day of the month is unambiguous". There are a finite number of months and a finite number of localized tokens for representing those months. Do you have an example of two different locales that use the same token (or token sequence) to denote different months on the calendar?
* the word "allowing" playing a crucial role here
If you are using a proleptic Gregorian (or Julian, but why on earth would you do that) calendar, sure.
If its not one of those (but its still the Roman-derived Christian calendar in some form), there are ambiguities, and if its any other calendar, it may have ambiguities and/or the elements needed to specify a date may be different, and the CE/AD year is likely not an element and not relevant to whethe or not their are ambiguities.
I put in a whole clause in my original comment to preempt this flavor of pedantic sniping that involves applying double standards. And yet here we are.
The devs of a site (or an application) are in a video call, with screen sharing or whatever is useful, with a user who has accessibility needs and is using their site/program. A bunch of other devs sit in on it, muted, just learning. Then the devs throw some money in the pot and the user who did the testing gets paid for their time. Everybody wins.
Oh, and if all participants agree, the stream is made available for subscribers, and then the user gets royalties off that, too.
Does this exist? Can someone make it?
I don't want to overdo it with high-falutin' theorizing, but I think your firm's definition of "fancy" might be missing some crucial aspects, or maybe "fancy" isn't the right term. Maybe it was "flashy," or "gaudy," or "decorative"? Maybe it was "branded"? Or did it actually offer sighted users a more effective UX?
Wrong. You could die suddenly in peak condition without ever having a disability.
Second, I wrote could, to clarify that not everybody gets a disability before they die.
Third, you could also die past your peak but still without disability.
> "100%" doesn't mean "there are no nitpicky edge cases," it means, "this includes you, yes you, this is relevant to you."
> It is completely normal to use language that is not entirely precise. It isn't a criticism to point this out.
The audience for a given Hacker News article is the people who show up and find it interesting, rather than some platonic ideal of a Hacker News user. Participating in a system based on voting (such as HN) means accepting you won't always get your way. There are stories on the front page that aren't inappropriate/flaggable but which I would rather weren't there every day.
And oblivious to how fortunate you are until it leaves you. And then you get to gripe about "getting old" or whatever and kvetch about what you lost.
Some people never had it. And never will.
But they are sometimes a necessary evil to communicate at all.
I read this article on HN recently about trying to cultivate these experiences deliberately, I'd be curious what you thought of it. It seems like an interesting idea but I have mixed feelings about cosplaying as a person with a disability I don't actually have.
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/07/i-feel-hopeless-rejected-an...
From what I have read -- and this article cites the same stat -- roughly 15 to 20 percent of people self-identify as disabled. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. At least one study found that about 60 percent of people would benefit from better accommodation if you ask them if they have difficulties with X without asking them to self-identify as disabled.
Both the officially disabled and people with milder limitations get really cranky about where to draw that line. People with mild limitations often go out of their way to say they are definitely not disabled and merely have a little trouble with these things and officially disabled jealously guard the label because they need it to have any hope of making their lives work at all and don't want people who can make their lives work without that label horning in on any limited benefits available only to them or diluting what the word means.
It's a really thorny topic.
I had a class from SFSU in Homelessness and Public Policy and it has a similar exercise, like "Spend one day pretending you are homeless. Figure out how to go to the bathroom while carrying everything you own. Figure out how you will get around without a car."
And then I spent nearly six years homeless.
There are plenty of people with actual disabilities who are perfectly capable of telling you what they need if you will only listen to them. If you are unable or unwilling to listen to them and take them seriously without trying to "walk a mile in their shoes," well, sure, go ahead and try it out for a week or whatever if you think that will help you.
But sometimes all it takes is one person willing to say it over and over so you keep it in mind when it's time for you to make coding decisions or whatever. And if/when that happens, it probably won't ever get noticed, acknowledged nor appreciated.
It will promptly be forgotten like when programmers of an old, "useless" language fixed Y2K and the world did not have a global financial meltdown on January 1, 2000. We shrugged, acted like "Someone must have been wrong." and moved on to hand-wringing about the newest bad news.
I am probably the only person on the planet who sometimes goes "Thank God we aren't living in the Y2K Post Apocalypse!"
The internet has made my life as a disabled person vastly more workable. Are there things I wish were even betterer? Sure, there are and we certainly shouldn't be dismissing the completely valid complaints of anyone who can't do x because it's not designed with their needs in mind and there is no means whatsoever to get it done.
I certainly do not dismiss such people.
But perhaps it would help to understand that when they complain about, for example, the internet not working for them, part of what they are telling you is that the internet is vital to their lives and has expanded their life beyond what it likely would have been in decades past. So when it doesn't work, it's like taking away their oxygen or sunshine.
It's hard to do anything well. It's often not appreciated at all nor rewarded. Try to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
A teammate offered to pick me every morning but our schedules were a little different, so she couldn't take me home. There was a program for people ridesharing, some goody-two-shoes, pie-in-the-sky, "Let's promote the idea that people need to drive less" thing and she qualified for a special parking space for ridesharing with me.
And then someone else offered to take me home and also applied to this program and did not get the special parking space she was hoping for. Instead, the first woman lost her special parking privileges.
After that, I stopped participating in all the company programs aimed at rewarding people with cars for driving less by walking, biking, ridesharing, etc. for fear that as someone entirely without a car, no matter what I did, I would somehow be in violation of the rules which were geared towards people who owned cars and by default drove alone.
I happen to be seriously handicapped myself and my condition is congenital. If he is more entitled to give his views on this topic than I am, then something is extremely wrong.
So while the long-term benefits of exercise are well-established, it’s up to the individual whether the benefits outweigh the cost for them personally. And in the context of disability, some of those benefits might not apply or may be counteracted by the exercise exacerbating a chronic condition.
The benefits of exercise are great enough that I would encourage people to try to find an activity they like and accommodates any disabilities. Unfortunately, this isn’t feasible for everyone.
Edit: fixed an incorrect word.
I mean if you have run for 5 months and haven't progressed towards any of your goals ... then it seems like your routine needs to be improved. Or maybe you want a different activity that would help you reach your goals.
For most people, if you don't enjoy running just to run, the reward would be the progress towards your goals.
Now, I'm running around months with a pulled muscle.
I don't even get them from lifting too heavy in the gym, I usually get them when I rotate in the dumbest possible way, grabbing some paper in the office.
If you live an active lifestyle in your 20s and 30s and try to keep up with the same pace as you age, over time you will just find yourself "tweaking" things. This could be small injuries, like a pulled muscle, or tendonitis, or joint pain.
You are still physically capable of many of the same things, but if you deviate from the "happy path" injury is much more likely and takes way longer to heal.
Especially since I'm over 30.
I lift something in the worst possible position, because I'm distracted, and suddenly I pulled my back, or whatever.
Grabbing something, turning around, remembering I need something else, just rotating my upper body and grabbing it, done.
Lifting a big mirror, without bracing myself.
Etc.
See the earlier thread about weight lifting. It's not about becoming Arnold, and it really does help prevent silly injuries.
1. I am sure to become old; I cannot avoid ageing.
2. I am sure to become ill; I cannot avoid illness.
3. I am sure to die; I cannot avoid death.
4. I must be separated and parted from all that is dear and beloved to me.
5. I am the owner of my actions, heir of my actions, actions are the womb (from which I have sprung), actions are my relations, actions are my protection. Whatever actions I do, good or bad, of these I shall become the heir.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upajjhatthana_Sutta
But seriously it can be the opposite of depressing. Instead of hating getting old, you realise it is like hating that the sky is blue and then you can enjoy it.
You don't focus on these realities and stop there. You move past them, with a clearer mind.
Buddhists celebrate and actively cultivate joy (pīti, a stimulating and joyful mental factor that you develop through meditation). For lay people, any wholesome kind of joy derived from life that doesn't lead to craving and addiction is also considered good.
It's unfortunate fact though that there is rather large chunk of people who do not get to grow old. In the same vein there are people who will not get ill anymore before their death.
Yes. And also the notion of ability/disability has too many connotations, it makes it really hard to discuss the subject.
One could posit that having less than perfect vision is a disability (for whatever value of "perfect"). But people will fight tooth and nail to not fall into that category, they'll explain how much they still can do without correction, or straight refuse the definition because glasses compensate their vision.
I think at the very basis, accepting that there isn't a "norm" in the first place could help a lot. If there's no normal people, we can start discussion how we're all different and will be good or bad at different things.
Another funny lens: people entering a foreign culture where they can't read nor speak should also fall into the (temporary?) disabled bucket. And same for so many other mindane situations.
Some years ago, I probably never would have thought of myself as "disabled" in any way. But, like you mention, I wear glasses, and, depending what the activity is, I can either continue on with little issue, or end up completely useless. I've also learned that I have ADHD and a learning disability.
A "disability" is generally defined as a condition that limits one or more "major life activities," which is a term that has its own definition, but it's pretty common sense. One of my disabilities is myopia, which limits the activity of "seeing." My learning disability limits my ability to process visual-spatial information.
Without accommodation in certain tasks, I absolutely am disabled. Ask me to navigate an unfamiliar neighborhood alone without my phone, and I'll end up lost, frustrated, and probably not find where I'm supposed to go. Ask me to do it without my phone and my glasses, and it's just a pointless exercise in futility then.
But, let me have those tools which I know can help me do the tasks, and I'll be just fine. I am still a person who has some disabilities even with my tools, but they're what lets me manage. It says something about American culture, I think, that being seen using something as a "crutch" is a sign of weakness, when, in fact, a crutch is nothing more than a tool that can let someone who would be otherwise unable to do an activity be able to do so, no more or less than my glasses or my phone.
This contradiction is at the heart of social and political frictions. How much does an individual at their peak owe to the collective that "abled" them. Why should anyone take care of them during decline?
Its not a trivial problem. The feeling of invincibility in our youth, ignoring - if not despising - the weak and adulating the strong and capable is probably an evolutionary adaptation.
Yet our predicament as an intelligent and moral species is to understand this core reality and find the right balance. Use the various forms of invented technology to push the limits of ability (augment) without forgeting how it is all bootstraped and held together.
Wish the article went into more detail about what happened.
But we're all just temporarily smart as well, many people are not that bright before that first cup of coffee or if they are going through lots of stress (hence crunch time often decreasing productivity)
One of the problems I have is encountering design decisions that I think that must be a bug, only to have it turn out to be a real thing. This quirk in my character cost me a lot of money with the Danish department of business registration, - long story short when I said I filled out what they wanted filled out and speculated maybe their site was broken they said oh you probably made this specific mistake, everybody does that - but in the end I still had to pay thousands of dollars in fines and close down the company (it was when Denmark decided you had to specify the legal owner of an LLC or face forced closure with fines, about a year later they closed down all LLCs anyway)
on edit: of course a lot of devs have specific intellectual differences in ability - like ADHD.
I know someone who has a 134 IQ (well above average) but also has a comprehension disorder. They work in tech, but often need to send articles/instructions to a peer for summary/interpretation. They have an extensive vocabulary but if there is an unnecessarily complex paragraph they just get lost between the beginning and end.
It’s greatly made me appreciate simple straightforward technical documentation beyond my existing appreciation because simplicity doesn’t waste my own time.
One thing I also really like in addition to what you mentioned is greyscale mode.
Swipe from the top? that brings the notifications
Swipe from the bottom? Brings up photo options. Press on one of those by accident and you end up in a nest of menus and features that can be hard to get out of.
Want to play a video? Tap once, the video controls fade in, you've then got to tap the play button in the middle of the screen within half a second or so, or it fades out again
Long press while scrolling through list of photos? Now you're in 'select mode' and every photo you press gets added to the selection rather than getting displayed. Can be very confusing.
Press the wrong button in IOS and you end up in very confusing picture-in-picture mode
One great thing about iOS is the 'guided access' feature, you can use it to lock the ipad into one app and even disable parts of the touchscreen so that a child can use the ipad without accidentally finding their way out of the app and into your email. I dont think Android has an equivalent. edit: ah yes it does - App Pinning - thanks
Android does have that feature on some phones, it's called App Pinning.
On top of that apps (looking at you, Instagram) are often simply buggy. You can have the same video play or not play depending on how the winds of load balancing blow. No graceful degradation or anything.
I was properly medicated (with non-stimulant medication) for ADHD a few years ago and looking back to my life before that, I realize how much ADHD has negatively effected my life. And yet never along the way did anyone look at me with any sort of compassion. It was always seen as a moral failing on my part, a "Why can't you do this? Everyone else can." And I had been given those messages so consistently that I came to believe them about myself.
It was really eye-opening to have someone with a visibility tell me that sometimes their intellectual disability hampered their life more than their physical disability.
I deserved it too. I was too proud and demeaning others for not being able (like me) to remember things.
The title got me because I was fortunate to have this revelation too. I'd sprained a foot joint jumping off a small staircase. A day later I could barely limp into a med supply place to buy crutches. My "outdoors" vacation changed completely.
Suddenly I'm worried about people judging me, and I'm intensely grateful for ramps, I care about parking spots, and it dawned on me that I'd ignored all this infrastructure that I now needed.
Thanks.
Considering that 15-20% of people have dyslexia, this is undoubtedly an underestimate.
> It affects 3–7% of the population;[2][5] however, up to 20% of the general population may have some degree of symptoms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia
That would mean no one will ever die in their best abilities. I think that is a claim that can easily proven wrong, for any reasonable definition of best abilities.
So then you get ultra pedantic about, maybe that doesn't make sense if you are vaporized over a timescale less than a human reaction time, 100ms or so, and probably that has happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or suicide bombers, or when the twin towers fell, or when a submarine catastrophically collapses, or certain falling deaths perhaps... But likely less than 0.5% of the people who have been alive, so when rounding to the nearest percent you would indeed say 100%.
All of that is for lols, probably the original quote attached some sort of caveat that was lost in the note-taking, but even without it it's reasonable for the reader to be expected to add the necessary caveat, “ignoring people who happen to very suddenly die in the prime of their lives,...”
What I mean is, from what I get, the author point is that we shouldn't disregard people with permanent disabilities, as it's a faith we will all eventually reach.
While I agree with the ethical goal of not disregarding people with some disabilities, I wouldn't take the path of founding that on average human faith.
All the more the point is not how long will we agonize in an obviously near death situation, but how comfortably and socially integrated we can live once we have some disability, taking for granted that yes we will all necessary have the luxe of such a situation.
It is completely normal to use language that is not entirely precise. It isn't a criticism to point this out.
One trick that I'm doing, in the app that I'm working on now, is that I have a "long-press help" feature.
I have a long-press gesture recognizer attached to the main view, and, when a long-press event is received, I find the shallowest view under that press, and examine it for the accessibility label and hint support. If it does not have any, I back up to its parent, etc.
If I find a label and hint, I use them to populate a popover, pointing at the target, and trigger a haptic. This popover has whatever is in the label (the popover title), and hint (detailed popover body).
This encourages me to make sure that as many items as possible, have accessibility support. It also is a lot easier to test, than running voiceover (which I need to do anyway, as sometimes, text does not speak the way we think).
I also localize my accessibility[0].
[0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_Generic_Swift_Tool...
That's not to be gloomy and depressing - just that if you:
1) want to do something
2) have the physical health to do it
3) doing so won't put your family in a difficult situation financially or otherwise
Just do it. When my friends say "oh I'll do that when I'm retired" or even just "oh I'll start activity X maybe in a couple of years" I'm like.........why. You don't even know if you'll be fit and healthy next year, making plans for your retirement in 20 years or even postponing simple outdoor activities like mountain biking or camping for a couple years "when the time is better" is.....unreasonable to me.
Like the article says - we're all just temporarily abled. Maybe some of us if very lucky will remain abled for a long time. A lot of people will not. If you have the good fortune of being abled now, use it now.
Be mindful to take chronic pain into consideration for any plans later in life, especially if you've not been the most disciplined with your health.
Also get up and stretch more. Please.
I think the saddest thing was that they had been planning a trip to Spain and were putting it off to do other things instead, he was nearing retirement as well.
Since that day I've been more willing to do things instead of putting them off.
This new type medicine will focus on preventing injuries like that of Jim Nielsen's knee, as well as illnesses. For example, blood sugar levels considered normal have increased over the years as the general population got fatter. If your levels are measured 125 mg/dL, maybe you'll get a suggestion to change your diet. But if they're 126 mg/dL, suddenly this is viewed as serious and you're prescribed medications.
Attia argues that there's too much focus on putting out fires like treating a stroke, but not nearly enough prevention and almost no individual long-term course correction for patients. He also argues that we have all the tools to collect the data and to make it possible. The book also delves into the science of "the 4 horsemen of death" as he calls them: atherosclerotic disease, cancer, neurodegenerative disease and the type 2 diabetes with the related metabolic dysfunction.