The friction (what little there is?) sounds like the result of her personal differences with the people around her, instead of a fundamental difference between the sexes. Lots of men can't stand the faddish "hacker" social scene, either.
It's funny you know, under ordinary circumstances I'd find that an offensive commentary, but I'm so accustomed to ranting tirades about how being a woman in tech is an open invitation to constant unremitting sexual harassment I perceived just the absence of this as a positive.
In retrospect though, yes, it still wasn't actually worth a commendation.
How do you know that these things would not happen if you weren't a woman? How do you know that you are only invited to speak at events to fill a quota? These are things you simply can't know and will never know. Yes, OK, you are a polymath and super smart, I get it. Honestly, to me this reads like someone who hasn't quite gotten over herself.
Perhaps it sounds a bit sexist, but I don't know many women that are actually intrigued by CS/CE. The females in my graduating class are very good at what they do, and very zealous about their work, but this is really the exception to the rule and not the rule itself. The motivating reason for this has nothing to to with the antisocial "nerd barrier", but with the nature of the work. Can we start to gripe about why there aren't more men in the fashion industry?
The point of view taken here is effectively that the author doesn't encourage women to enter these fields because of the possibility of encountering an awkward social situation and being exposed to equal opportunity employment, however this issue is going to arise in ANY male dominated career.
The point about needing to connect in fields outside of ones work is also an incredible load of shit. I have more social interactions with friends that are completely outside of the tech world than those within. I'm a gearhead as well as a developer, and my girlfriend has begun to introduce me to the world of hair fashion (I color her roots on occasion). Because of these experiences, I end up with plenty of social interactions with loads of individuals that give me strange looks when I go on about the newest framework I'm playing with, or the excitement over a new linux kernel.
People have different interests, its as simple as that. Sometimes, people only want to live their work and nothing else. You should be encouraged to do what you love, not discouraged because of some superficial office drama.
It's disappointing to see someone in a technical context be so handwavey. "Girls aren't interested in math, simple as that," is a way of being ok with ignorance, not an actual argument.
One should be suspicious of that style of argument at all times, but doubly so when it's convenient to the speaker.
You call it handwavey, I call it first hand experience. I'm not here to analyze why society seems to operate in this way, I'm here to state the unfortunately obvious state of the field. Blame it on television, stereotypes, biology, the stigma of the tech fields... I don't care. The fact of the matter is that CS/CE doesn't seem to be something that a significantly large portion of women actually enjoy.
The hacker way is to continuously tinker with systems to improve them. As part of that process, we seek knowledge through analysis, especially the sort of knowledge that provides knobs to tweak.
Fein explicitly says "I'm not here to analyze" the system he's participating in. He even goes on to list some potential causes of the negative outcome we're discussing, and then says he doesn't care about the root causes. It's those root causes that he's ignorant of. Not just accidentally ignorant, but admittedly and willfully ignorant of.
I don't think that's coincidence. It's a natural human tendency be willfully ignorant of uncomfortable truths. If Fein actually took time to understand the problems keeping women out of CS, he might discover that he was part of the problem, or that the power to improve the situation is in his hands. That's certainly what I discovered when I dug into this stuff.
I say his sort of willful ignorance, however understandable is, is exactly the opposite of what hackers are all about.
> The females in my graduating class are very good at what they do, and very zealous about their work, but this is really the exception to the rule and not the rule itself.
s/females/people/. This yields the same result.
> Can we start to gripe about why there aren't more men in the fashion industry?
Her point about why she wouldn't recommend other women to be engineers is completely overshadowed with her workplace woes.
I get it, she dislikes her office culture, but that doesn't explain why she'd pick such a gender specific title. I think it's a complete over-generalization to use her experiences in her field to warn other females. To be honest, it feels like a sympathy piece.
Just the fact that tech is a male dominated field means that we should be encouraging more young girls to go into it.
And correct me if I am wrong, but can't you move in a different social circle than your colleagues? You don't have to restrict yourself to your colleagues and if you are a social being, then you will not find it difficult to find yourself the circle that you would like.
It sounds more like she's in a lame job where the technical staff has no interests outside of tech. I sympathize with that. When hiring, I search out well rounded individuals. It is a little easier at my company because we're a restaurant-focused startup, but still... the number of engineers I've met with no hobbies or even interests outside of tech seems to outnumber the ones who do.
It sounds more like the poster should find another job. Maybe go work in tech at a company that actually works in one of her other interests.
Good point - could be. But again, I think we need to be careful not to say that this is occuring because of their gender. I know of a lot of friends who are actually very good at IT, but who have a broader view of society, art and literature. Many of these friends are male :-)
One thing it may be is that the hiring policies dictated that the people she works with a very focused on IT only and don't have a broader view of the outside world. I would argue that's a problem in the company she works in - after all there are moments in IT where a great idea froms from outside computing. The best example I can think of is Design Patterns, which came from architecture.
It seems like only half of the problems she mentions are actually because she's a woman in a male-dominated field, and the other half are just because she has broader interests than most of them.
It seems the best solution for the first problem is still to get more women in the field. I can't say for sure, but I bet it would help the second problem, too. I wish she wouldn't give up.
This reads like a good reason to advise people with wide interests not to go into the IT field as there's a good chance they'll end up in a bubble where all they talk about is IT.
There's nothing in here that specifically applies to women, nor applies to the wider field of Engineering.
For goodness sake woman if you're trapped in an IT ghetto then get the f*k out.
I've got women friends that went the trade route and became certified electricians later transferring to programming after running their own businesses - they're loving IT after male dominated site work. Another acquaintance has a background in pure / applied mathematics, she founded an Engineering/Math/Comp. Sci. faculty, hard work but no complaints.
My cousin has been in Civil Engineering for two decades and she's practically running a large transnational now, loves her job.
A scary reason that might reasonably justify telling young girls not to go into geology is that they might end up on a remote mine site as the sole female and getting continuously sexually harassed and eyed up as a potential rape victim. That's a very real issue.
Hanging out with a bunch of geeks that talk about nothing but their D12's and their Rails code is certainly not for everyone, I agree, but please don't use that as a reason to advise women to avoid Engineering.
As another woman in tech I read this hesitantly and find I don't agree with the argument she is making here. While my workplace is also dominated with men I have learnt to manage communication differences and stand on the merit of my work. Yes, I consistently get belittled in small ways, mostly by older clients, but if this is what I have to deal with it's a small thing and easily brushed off - and I know it will disappear in time as our demographic loses those who are not used to non-stereotypical people in their environment. But I want to state that I'm a little older than her, and certainly in my 20s I would rail against the hegemony at any chance I got. I made noise and I'm glad I did - in all the arguments and frustration I was able to figure out who I am and where I want to be. She needs to consider herself a pioneer and revel in that - to celebrate her difference and what she can accomplish, and in that different perspective what she brings to her field. If there are those that resist around her, she has a choice to push back harder or move to another environment.
I'd like to comment on her point that her co-workers are myopic in their interests: this is irrelevant to her argument as she could just as easily be a male whose interests lie outside of the status quo. I have seen many different kinds of people work together, and in the right environment acceptance is key. She may find that switching jobs give her a totally new outlook. Let me provide a short example: I am not a gamer and have really no interest. But I am fascinated by the mechanics and functionality of how a massive game such as WoW is created. So if a conversation turns to a gaming topic, I know that I have an opportunity to learn something (how does Blizzard scale, what is their stack/languages etc). There is no topic that cannot be made interesting.
This comment here depressed me however: "Yawn. Then quit, whatever. Stop bitching about it. The only thing I ever hear about from "women in tech" is complaining, and it's boring."
This is completely unfair and unhelpful. She has a complaint, and it is important for her to feel she can express this without fear of personal attack. Comments like this is the reason things don't change, because we fear being called out as 'emotional' or 'unreasonable'. A younger, or less confident person, will take comments like these personally and wonder if their concerns are valid. She has every right to enter the debate on her own terms and we should approach her concerns reasonably and fairly. Losing any brilliant mind because of suppressed expression would be a tragedy.
I'd like to comment on her point that her co-workers are myopic in their interests: this is irrelevant to her argument as she could just as easily be a male whose interests lie outside of the status quo
I find this sentence key in a number of ways. Tech firms or departments are often filled with individuals with autistic-spectrum traits - among which are poor social skills, an obsession with details, myopic interest and hyper-rationalistic thought. ASD is 4-1 more prevalent in men than women
Her point is not that some of her interests lie outside the status quo, it's that the entirety of her coworkers interests do - they are only interested in or able to connect with each other or her regarding facts and ideas relating to their work, and are seemingly unable to connect that work to any greater meaning or purpose in life
Greater is a matter of opinion. Many of the fundamental discoveries (perhaps excluding medicine) came from people obsessed with their field as an end in itself rather than a means. Needing "this has a greater purpose in helping other people" outside validation to maintain interest is a bad sign that you have not found your calling, and it's a tendency I think our society indoctrinates women with to their detriment. The need to trade with others does influence what I build, but they aren't the reason I build.
It's true, narrow cultural perspectives are an endemic problem in tech, and it can be noticed as a problem by men and women.
My favorite touchstone story on this was an earnest conversation my wife, an artist, got into with a physics postdoc at an ivy league school. He wanted to tell her his thoughts on Michelangelo's Sixteenth Chapel -- he repeated it clearly several times in the course of making some kind of point about what art should be.
It took some time to understand he meant the Sistine Chapel. Anyone can make a silly mistake. But this one illustrated the combination of "used to being right" self-assurance, with utter cultural ignorance that should disqualify one from offering opinions. ("Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.")
On the other hand, there are a lot of polymaths in tech. Often "thing" stuff -- flying, scuba, rocketry, photography, astronomy, climbing. It can be rewarding to hear about other people's deep understanding of their hobby.
At the close of the article, it sounded like the OP wants a big picture goal or mission for her tech work. You have to find one of these. Sometimes education is a way, or a seeking out a unique opportunity to make a difference.
I think you guys are focusing too much on the "how is this about women" aspect and not the message. I agree that the bulk of her argument does not depend on her being a women. Let's move on.
Isn't it true that there's a lack of intellectual diversity? Most good programmers read about technology, code, and do technical things, but do they have worldly wisdom? To quote Charlie Munger:
“You must know the big ideas in the big disciplines, and use them routinely — all of them, not just a few. Most people are trained in one model — economics, for example — and try to solve all problems in one way. You know the old saying: to the man with a hammer, the world looks like a nail. This is a dumb way of handling problems.”
I think by only focusing on one thing, a lot of programmers miss out on being better. This theme recurs everywhere. Feynman used to talk about using a "different box of tools" which enabled him to solve many problems. He would also keep many problems in his head and whenever he learned a new trick, he would apply that trick to all his problems. Every now and then he'd solve a big problem and people would say he's a genius!
Gian-Carlo Rota, the MIT mathematician, once wrote that Erdos and Hilbert (prolific mathematicians) had many interesting results, but it seemed they used the same tricks over and over everywhere - they just had different strategies.
It's impossible to develop new mental models or add to your toolbox when you're learning what everyone else is learning. But if you explore beyond your boundaries, then you'll pick up new things which will not only make your life richer but also help you in your endeavors.
This is a tad out of point but as a male developer in Singapore, I face the exact opposite situation. I have a hard time finding similar minded developers who love the bleeding edge, tech startups, *nix vs Apple debates, etc. I'd love to go to a conference, and just immerse myself in tech talks that go DEEP into detail, and then have drinks, and thrash talk about Ubuntu, and still end up using it.
I'm male and have many of the same sociological grievances with my tech sector colleagues.
I find it impossible to relate to people whose primary and sole interest is technology, and who have stifling personal traits that seem to correspond to that.
I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy -- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside. So even though I think the issue is interesting and important and worth discussing, I generally find myself mildly terrified at the prospect of making any sort commentary (or even really, at asking a question). There's kind of a thing where if you're from a certain group, you can't really talk about this sort of thing without making your "allegiances" super clear. I don't really think that's a healthy intellectual environment. And even then, any thought is met with a lot of wide looking eyes. There are indeed things you can't say.
So, I feel weird whenever I see articles like this on hacker news, not because the subject isn't worth discussing, but because I feel like the only commentary that's "acceptable" is platitudes. There's no real room for exploration or thought experiments. The stakes are too high. It's not really a discussion, it's more of a social game. Not a social game in the farmville sense, but in the Eric Berne "Games People Play" sense. It's often quite ritualized.
That said, I feel like this article is conflating an obvious cultural issue with a gender issue, and I think that's a mistake. The link to me between the culture problem and the gender problem isn't super obvious. I have a lot of the same complaints as her with regard to a lot of startup culture, and I'm a guy. The suggestion seems to be that somehow this particular startup culture is obviously masculine, and I don't see how that's the case. I actually agree with some (not all) of the criticisms of that culture, but I don't think that it really has anything to do with gender. I don't want to suggest that gender never plays a role, because I think that would be naive, but if you're going to make that claim I think it's important you back it up with something solid because making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone, and that accomplishes nothing.
>making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone
Yes, I agree completely, and the unhelpful comment left by 'Bill' on her page served to 'shut her up', rather I wish he would ask a question, seek for more details which could lead to a genuine understanding from all sides. It is encouraging to me that you understand the core issue here: not that there are problems but we don't know how to talk about them.
> I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy -- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside.
I certainly understand your position on this, but I want to point out something interesting: your hesitance to speak because you might say "the wrong thing" actually has an effect in itself. Nobody wants to make other people feel uncomfortable. If you're a woman and entering a room makes people worried about "saying the wrong thing," then you feel bad... reinforcing the impression that a woman somehow "shouldn't be there."
It's awful because a well-meaning person ends up preserving the situation they're actively trying to prevent.
You claim that there isn't much of an upside to a guy speaking in this situation -- there is in fact a quite large upside. By taking place in a conversation like this, you're sending a social signal that this kind of behavior -- talking about these issues in the open -- is encouraged and normal. It sounds like you're worried that this will backfire, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't when handled correctly. The basic rule to pull this off is to stop seeing certain classes of people as 'others.' It's harder to do than it sounds, because you'll find that lots of your cognition has this stuff hardwired. Eventually you'll recognize when you're thinking this way and take corrective action.
Don't get me wrong on this, but a single 29 y.o. woman, loving her job, as she admits, feels lonely and bored at her job because of all-male and tech people around? It's not surprising. But it has nothing to do with tech or engineering. My advise is get married (perhaps to someone outside of tech field, but in the end it does not matter: to someone you like). It will solve all problems.
I too detected some sexual frustration in her writing. She feels "lonely" at work and "bored" by the men around her? All these smart young men and not a single one has brought excitement into her life?
I think you are probably reading things in the post that aren't there. She sounds frustrated because they are so focused on IT. Sex really doesn't come into it!
I don't understand why this post has anything to do with encouraging young girls to enter science and engineering fields. Rather, I read this as the musings of someone who doesn't like their current job and doesn't feel very comfortable around the stereotypical engineer type. To that end, nothing in this blog post is specific about why you [the author] feel it's necessary to discourage leveling the gender ratios in our field. I understand that [male] engineers more often than not make disparaging remarks, talk non-stop about the latest (or sometimes the oldest) technology, and are overwhelmingly socially inept, but this is not a reason to stop trying to get more women into STEM. In fact, I strongly believe in the contrary: having more women in the tech industry will greatly improve working environments, reduce the social awkwardness about being a woman in this field, and make the field that much more interesting.
In the end, my take away from this post is exactly opposite from the purported thesis. The author's experience leads me to believe that we should absolutely be encouraging young girls to enter tech. Yes, it might be painful and lonely now, but if you start scaring girls instead of encouraging them, nothing will ever get better.
We're engineers; our jobs revolve around building efficient systems by finding the weak points and fixing them. A major weak point in the engineering system itself is a lack of women. This needs to be fixed.
Fascinating discussion here. Appreciate all the thoughtful comments but would like to address a few:
"Sounds like it's a job problem, find another job" -
I've had over 6 jobs in my field. The longest for about 3. These patterns are all the same everywhere I go. I am good at what I do and so I join companies with other people like that - that's the only thing in common.
"I can't comment because I'm a man so everything I say will be sexist" -
Not true. Acknowledge that there are people who feel this way about the industry. Until we can have a conversation about it, it won't change.
"It's not a gender problem, it's a culture problem" -
Never claimed this was a gender problem myself. The type of work encourages these types of people to congregate. That, in itself, is a problem. We're trying to increase diversity in an environment that is not diversity-friendly (from an interest/perspective.)
"Learn to manage your communication" -
At this point, I am a master of working with men, but I have to work so outside my nature. Keep it cold enough so it's not perceived as interest, keep it warm enough so I am not perceived as a bitch. It's a thin line that, to be honest, is exhausting to walk the whole time.
"Women don't love CS" -
Wrong. In my department 80% of women quit after the first few years and most cited social reasons for it. You can take a liberal arts class where you can have intellectually stimulating conversation or you can take a CS class where there is rarely conversation about things outside of tech. I imagine that's hard. I loved CS, but I always needed to get out.
"Get outside the work circle and find other friends" -
Sure, of course I have them, but as startup culture goes you work 9 to 9 sometimes. What are you supposed to do? You spend more of your time with your coworkers than anyone else. Why shouldn't you reflect on how that environment makes you feel?
"Is this a post about gender issues or startup culture?" -
It's both! They are not separable. The culture, because dominated by men, creates an environment that is not necessarily pleasant to women. When the only answer is to get more women in, you're in a catch 22.
All other mean comments about this being a sympathy post or a disgruntled employee, read more carefully. Random negative comments only reinforce what I'm saying.
Is it impossible that one of the girls you discouraged from going into IT would love to be in the tech-centered culture you mention? Is it biologically impossible for women to enjoy exploring their field? Couldn't one of these girls turn out to be a genius and create the big picture and the vision for a change and show it to the IT guys, if only she wasn't discouraged?
"...almost on a daily basis I have to deal with some situation that just wouldn’t happen if I wasn’t a woman."
I don't think the issues she lists will be solved by having fewer women in the field. I also don't think these issues are unique to working environments where men (greatly) outnumber women.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 79.4 ms ] threadThe title is plenty link baity, though.
In retrospect though, yes, it still wasn't actually worth a commendation.
The point of view taken here is effectively that the author doesn't encourage women to enter these fields because of the possibility of encountering an awkward social situation and being exposed to equal opportunity employment, however this issue is going to arise in ANY male dominated career.
The point about needing to connect in fields outside of ones work is also an incredible load of shit. I have more social interactions with friends that are completely outside of the tech world than those within. I'm a gearhead as well as a developer, and my girlfriend has begun to introduce me to the world of hair fashion (I color her roots on occasion). Because of these experiences, I end up with plenty of social interactions with loads of individuals that give me strange looks when I go on about the newest framework I'm playing with, or the excitement over a new linux kernel.
People have different interests, its as simple as that. Sometimes, people only want to live their work and nothing else. You should be encouraged to do what you love, not discouraged because of some superficial office drama.
One should be suspicious of that style of argument at all times, but doubly so when it's convenient to the speaker.
The hacker way is to continuously tinker with systems to improve them. As part of that process, we seek knowledge through analysis, especially the sort of knowledge that provides knobs to tweak.
Fein explicitly says "I'm not here to analyze" the system he's participating in. He even goes on to list some potential causes of the negative outcome we're discussing, and then says he doesn't care about the root causes. It's those root causes that he's ignorant of. Not just accidentally ignorant, but admittedly and willfully ignorant of.
I don't think that's coincidence. It's a natural human tendency be willfully ignorant of uncomfortable truths. If Fein actually took time to understand the problems keeping women out of CS, he might discover that he was part of the problem, or that the power to improve the situation is in his hands. That's certainly what I discovered when I dug into this stuff.
I say his sort of willful ignorance, however understandable is, is exactly the opposite of what hackers are all about.
s/females/people/. This yields the same result.
> Can we start to gripe about why there aren't more men in the fashion industry?
You've never met anyone from NYU, have you?
I get it, she dislikes her office culture, but that doesn't explain why she'd pick such a gender specific title. I think it's a complete over-generalization to use her experiences in her field to warn other females. To be honest, it feels like a sympathy piece.
And correct me if I am wrong, but can't you move in a different social circle than your colleagues? You don't have to restrict yourself to your colleagues and if you are a social being, then you will not find it difficult to find yourself the circle that you would like.
It sounds more like the poster should find another job. Maybe go work in tech at a company that actually works in one of her other interests.
One thing it may be is that the hiring policies dictated that the people she works with a very focused on IT only and don't have a broader view of the outside world. I would argue that's a problem in the company she works in - after all there are moments in IT where a great idea froms from outside computing. The best example I can think of is Design Patterns, which came from architecture.
It seems the best solution for the first problem is still to get more women in the field. I can't say for sure, but I bet it would help the second problem, too. I wish she wouldn't give up.
It seemed like she switched themes halfway through the post
This reads like a good reason to advise people with wide interests not to go into the IT field as there's a good chance they'll end up in a bubble where all they talk about is IT.
There's nothing in here that specifically applies to women, nor applies to the wider field of Engineering.
For goodness sake woman if you're trapped in an IT ghetto then get the f*k out.
I've got women friends that went the trade route and became certified electricians later transferring to programming after running their own businesses - they're loving IT after male dominated site work. Another acquaintance has a background in pure / applied mathematics, she founded an Engineering/Math/Comp. Sci. faculty, hard work but no complaints.
My cousin has been in Civil Engineering for two decades and she's practically running a large transnational now, loves her job.
A scary reason that might reasonably justify telling young girls not to go into geology is that they might end up on a remote mine site as the sole female and getting continuously sexually harassed and eyed up as a potential rape victim. That's a very real issue.
Hanging out with a bunch of geeks that talk about nothing but their D12's and their Rails code is certainly not for everyone, I agree, but please don't use that as a reason to advise women to avoid Engineering.
I'd like to comment on her point that her co-workers are myopic in their interests: this is irrelevant to her argument as she could just as easily be a male whose interests lie outside of the status quo. I have seen many different kinds of people work together, and in the right environment acceptance is key. She may find that switching jobs give her a totally new outlook. Let me provide a short example: I am not a gamer and have really no interest. But I am fascinated by the mechanics and functionality of how a massive game such as WoW is created. So if a conversation turns to a gaming topic, I know that I have an opportunity to learn something (how does Blizzard scale, what is their stack/languages etc). There is no topic that cannot be made interesting.
This comment here depressed me however: "Yawn. Then quit, whatever. Stop bitching about it. The only thing I ever hear about from "women in tech" is complaining, and it's boring."
This is completely unfair and unhelpful. She has a complaint, and it is important for her to feel she can express this without fear of personal attack. Comments like this is the reason things don't change, because we fear being called out as 'emotional' or 'unreasonable'. A younger, or less confident person, will take comments like these personally and wonder if their concerns are valid. She has every right to enter the debate on her own terms and we should approach her concerns reasonably and fairly. Losing any brilliant mind because of suppressed expression would be a tragedy.
I find this sentence key in a number of ways. Tech firms or departments are often filled with individuals with autistic-spectrum traits - among which are poor social skills, an obsession with details, myopic interest and hyper-rationalistic thought. ASD is 4-1 more prevalent in men than women
Her point is not that some of her interests lie outside the status quo, it's that the entirety of her coworkers interests do - they are only interested in or able to connect with each other or her regarding facts and ideas relating to their work, and are seemingly unable to connect that work to any greater meaning or purpose in life
My favorite touchstone story on this was an earnest conversation my wife, an artist, got into with a physics postdoc at an ivy league school. He wanted to tell her his thoughts on Michelangelo's Sixteenth Chapel -- he repeated it clearly several times in the course of making some kind of point about what art should be.
It took some time to understand he meant the Sistine Chapel. Anyone can make a silly mistake. But this one illustrated the combination of "used to being right" self-assurance, with utter cultural ignorance that should disqualify one from offering opinions. ("Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.")
On the other hand, there are a lot of polymaths in tech. Often "thing" stuff -- flying, scuba, rocketry, photography, astronomy, climbing. It can be rewarding to hear about other people's deep understanding of their hobby.
At the close of the article, it sounded like the OP wants a big picture goal or mission for her tech work. You have to find one of these. Sometimes education is a way, or a seeking out a unique opportunity to make a difference.
Isn't it true that there's a lack of intellectual diversity? Most good programmers read about technology, code, and do technical things, but do they have worldly wisdom? To quote Charlie Munger:
“You must know the big ideas in the big disciplines, and use them routinely — all of them, not just a few. Most people are trained in one model — economics, for example — and try to solve all problems in one way. You know the old saying: to the man with a hammer, the world looks like a nail. This is a dumb way of handling problems.”
I think by only focusing on one thing, a lot of programmers miss out on being better. This theme recurs everywhere. Feynman used to talk about using a "different box of tools" which enabled him to solve many problems. He would also keep many problems in his head and whenever he learned a new trick, he would apply that trick to all his problems. Every now and then he'd solve a big problem and people would say he's a genius!
Gian-Carlo Rota, the MIT mathematician, once wrote that Erdos and Hilbert (prolific mathematicians) had many interesting results, but it seemed they used the same tricks over and over everywhere - they just had different strategies.
It's impossible to develop new mental models or add to your toolbox when you're learning what everyone else is learning. But if you explore beyond your boundaries, then you'll pick up new things which will not only make your life richer but also help you in your endeavors.
Consider yourself lucky, ms dev.
So, I feel weird whenever I see articles like this on hacker news, not because the subject isn't worth discussing, but because I feel like the only commentary that's "acceptable" is platitudes. There's no real room for exploration or thought experiments. The stakes are too high. It's not really a discussion, it's more of a social game. Not a social game in the farmville sense, but in the Eric Berne "Games People Play" sense. It's often quite ritualized.
That said, I feel like this article is conflating an obvious cultural issue with a gender issue, and I think that's a mistake. The link to me between the culture problem and the gender problem isn't super obvious. I have a lot of the same complaints as her with regard to a lot of startup culture, and I'm a guy. The suggestion seems to be that somehow this particular startup culture is obviously masculine, and I don't see how that's the case. I actually agree with some (not all) of the criticisms of that culture, but I don't think that it really has anything to do with gender. I don't want to suggest that gender never plays a role, because I think that would be naive, but if you're going to make that claim I think it's important you back it up with something solid because making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone, and that accomplishes nothing.
Yes, I agree completely, and the unhelpful comment left by 'Bill' on her page served to 'shut her up', rather I wish he would ask a question, seek for more details which could lead to a genuine understanding from all sides. It is encouraging to me that you understand the core issue here: not that there are problems but we don't know how to talk about them.
I certainly understand your position on this, but I want to point out something interesting: your hesitance to speak because you might say "the wrong thing" actually has an effect in itself. Nobody wants to make other people feel uncomfortable. If you're a woman and entering a room makes people worried about "saying the wrong thing," then you feel bad... reinforcing the impression that a woman somehow "shouldn't be there."
It's awful because a well-meaning person ends up preserving the situation they're actively trying to prevent.
You claim that there isn't much of an upside to a guy speaking in this situation -- there is in fact a quite large upside. By taking place in a conversation like this, you're sending a social signal that this kind of behavior -- talking about these issues in the open -- is encouraged and normal. It sounds like you're worried that this will backfire, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't when handled correctly. The basic rule to pull this off is to stop seeing certain classes of people as 'others.' It's harder to do than it sounds, because you'll find that lots of your cognition has this stuff hardwired. Eventually you'll recognize when you're thinking this way and take corrective action.
Understand this, and all becomes clear.
In the end, my take away from this post is exactly opposite from the purported thesis. The author's experience leads me to believe that we should absolutely be encouraging young girls to enter tech. Yes, it might be painful and lonely now, but if you start scaring girls instead of encouraging them, nothing will ever get better.
We're engineers; our jobs revolve around building efficient systems by finding the weak points and fixing them. A major weak point in the engineering system itself is a lack of women. This needs to be fixed.
[Edit for typos]
"Sounds like it's a job problem, find another job" - I've had over 6 jobs in my field. The longest for about 3. These patterns are all the same everywhere I go. I am good at what I do and so I join companies with other people like that - that's the only thing in common.
"I can't comment because I'm a man so everything I say will be sexist" - Not true. Acknowledge that there are people who feel this way about the industry. Until we can have a conversation about it, it won't change.
"It's not a gender problem, it's a culture problem" - Never claimed this was a gender problem myself. The type of work encourages these types of people to congregate. That, in itself, is a problem. We're trying to increase diversity in an environment that is not diversity-friendly (from an interest/perspective.)
"Learn to manage your communication" - At this point, I am a master of working with men, but I have to work so outside my nature. Keep it cold enough so it's not perceived as interest, keep it warm enough so I am not perceived as a bitch. It's a thin line that, to be honest, is exhausting to walk the whole time.
"Women don't love CS" - Wrong. In my department 80% of women quit after the first few years and most cited social reasons for it. You can take a liberal arts class where you can have intellectually stimulating conversation or you can take a CS class where there is rarely conversation about things outside of tech. I imagine that's hard. I loved CS, but I always needed to get out.
"Get outside the work circle and find other friends" - Sure, of course I have them, but as startup culture goes you work 9 to 9 sometimes. What are you supposed to do? You spend more of your time with your coworkers than anyone else. Why shouldn't you reflect on how that environment makes you feel?
"Is this a post about gender issues or startup culture?" - It's both! They are not separable. The culture, because dominated by men, creates an environment that is not necessarily pleasant to women. When the only answer is to get more women in, you're in a catch 22.
All other mean comments about this being a sympathy post or a disgruntled employee, read more carefully. Random negative comments only reinforce what I'm saying.
I think the problems she referes to are completely unrelated to female in tech!
I don't think the issues she lists will be solved by having fewer women in the field. I also don't think these issues are unique to working environments where men (greatly) outnumber women.