I do have ADHD. Living with it kind of sucks for a lot of the reasons mentioned in TFV. It can also be a superpower, particularly with adaptive coping skills.
I should also point out that I have both ADHD and rather high general intelligence. At any given IQ, measures of academic success are lower for those with ADHD. There's also survivor-bias in that I couldn't be posting this if I had died from reckless behavior.
It's a superpower in the same way a person with dwarfism has a superpower of having plenty of legroom on planes.
Sometimes if you're lucky a different way of thinking/working happens to be useful, but most of the time it's a burden, and makes functioning in a society harder.
You have 2 superpowers. And all I got is this lousy t-shirt (and adhd).
This whole “neurodivergecy is a gift!” “Celebrate your differences! Embrace your kinks!” thing is irksome to me. I know it isn’t intended in a bad way but, sometimes things aren’t a socially repressed positive just looking for love and attention. Not everybody gets a trophy.
Stimulants though, I know they work for some but boy, adhd + addictive drugs? Head scratcher. I have a nagging suspicion it’s the next OxyContin, personally. Maybe not on such a grand scale but I see negative effects in myself and others regularly. Maybe humans shouldn’t be hopped on speed so much?
> adhd + addictive drugs? Head scratcher. I have a nagging suspicion it’s the next OxyContin, personally.
If I am Icarus, then stimulants are my wax wings. Stimulants have been the cause and solution to most of my problems in life over the past decade.
Some days, I truly feel like I made a deal with the Devil. But what alternative do I have? The world has no sympathy and even less empathy. I want to survive in this world like everyone else.
Sure, I do not technically need them to survive. I wasn't even diagnosed until my early 20s. However, I've had a taste of the good life, and I can't go back.
I do not think I am clinically addicted, but I am very psychologically and physically dependent on stimulants.
One sick thought that occasionally ruminates inside my mind is that while I feel like the medications have helped me so much, I look around me -- look back on my life -- and I literally have accomplished nothing. I have nothing to show for any of it. Life is "stable", for sure. Same underpaid, miserable job for 7 years now, but really, that's it...
I do not care what any medical research paper or any doctor says. These medications are powerful psychoactive substances. I think they absolutely fuck with one's mind, and one's perception of reality albeit in subtle ways. I am starting to wonder if my perception of reality has been warped in to making me think I have been performing better than I actually have been all these years.
I'm not really sure how to end this scattered rant, but all I can say is that I've lost a lot of faith in psychiatry and psychology because of ADHD and its treatments. ADHD is the most treatable psychiatric condition? Seriously?
i had adhd diagnosed as a kid, medicated for a while, then stopped. didnt do great in school, just ok. struggled at uni with timekeeping and grades. made it decently, and then had some decent jobs.
got quite lucky, but always had issues with social skills and being too talkative. eventually got a tough job that needed a lot of personal initative and went back on meds. vyvanse has changed my life, allowed me to focus on my thoughts, keep organised, and not only helped me excel, but also fix my sleep schedule, get promoted, and just generally live like a normal person.
I mainly use Dexy (Dexedrine), but ironically, I cannot handle Vyvanse. Something about it sends me off the rails. I think it is due to some underlying metabolic reasoning i.e., I metabolize it way too quickly, but I have no idea.
How long does Vyvanse last for you? At best I could only ever get 4-6 hours out of it.
> adhd + addictive drugs? Head scratcher. I have a nagging suspicion it’s the next OxyContin, personally.
Can't speak for all of them, but I don't feel any drive to take them beyond getting the positive effects. I even have a reminder otherwise I forget it.
It's basically a meme repeated by many people with ADHD by this point about how they forget to be addicted to those dangerous drugs.
Yes, true. I’ve met them too. Problem is you don’t know which side of the coin you’ll land on and often times these drugs are initiated at a young age where with that first pill you go from zero to 100 in 30 minutes and suddenly everything is easy , and you writing is pristine, you mow straight lines, you excel at things, you don’t get in as much trouble etc etc.
But we have to remember not everyone has a legit prescription for these and that’s a big number of people too. There are absolutely pill mills for these drugs and they are very easy to find. Now I wonder about cardiac damage, or social damage from having the wrong type of people revved up to the max socially interacting. Look at some of the jarring/angry tik tok culture .
Look at Alex Jones, he’s had some interesting things to say in the past but at his worst he looks like he’s hopped up on adderall and booze and just spewing crazy poop. It’s just an example, please don’t get caught up on the specific example of what adderall can drive you to.
So at the end of the day, it’s a double edge sword. I’ve met many people who also were able to use narcotics responsibly and it helped them. It helps some, neutral for others, disaster for the rest.
My only real point is, it can help but please future reader treat them as serious drugs because they are serious. Yeah we give them to kids but they are not “kid safe.”
I treat them as the lifesaving medications they are. I have always maintained my working and professional life. Vyvanse allowed me to maintain all of the other relationships in my life and be an effective parent in addition. I’d rather not take it but the alternative is way worse!
I don't think what you've said in this comment has much credibility beyond "take medication seriously", which you've blown far out of proportion imo.
I'm on concerta, and was nervous to take it, because of all this fear mongering. I don't think you have malintent, but you gotta dial that back quite a lot. They started me on a tiny dose, even as an adult, and gave me a massive booklet with all possible information I couls have asked for. They said "Try this, see how it makes you feel, if it doesn't seem to help or has negative effects, we can figure something else out". Yes it's potentially addictive, but you shouldn't be going around putting the idea of turning into Alex Jones into anyone's head. That's ridiculous.
The major challenge for me is my attention gets "hung" in a way that I don't fully control. Sometimes it can get hung on a work topic, in which case I absolutely crush the project/feature etc. Other times, it gets hung on something it shouldn't and I can't be productive to save my life.
It also seems to come into play right at the end of a major project. It's very hard to wrap up the little details when I'm mentally ready to move onto the next thing.
ADHD != a lack of attention. It's a lack of control of one's attention. What you are experiencing mirrors my ADHD symptoms.
I can't even read a page of a novel without getting slightly distracted, having to re-read sentences, etc. but I can program for 6+ hours straight. When the hyperfocus kicks in, then it's really hard to break away/distract myself. I'll forgo standing up, eating, etc. because I'm in the "zone" and I can't make myself break away until it's damn near unbearable.
Incidentally, that feature of ADHD (hung attention) is the one that stimulant medication doesn't help with (and is in fact likely to actively exacerbate). That's something you have to address in other (harder) ways.
And yeah, everything you describe is characteristic of ADHD. :)
> Since there is no known genesis or cause for ADHD, and there is no known diagnostic test that can physically detect the presence of ADHD in the brain or some other organ
This very post gives a BIG clue to what ADHD is at its core, an executive function disorder.
It means struggling to complete basic tasks. Like showing up for an appointment. Remembering that thing someone asked you to do. Or a commitment you made to someone else. Remembering to do your taxes. And actually doing them when your reminder goes off for the 10th time.
It’s a complete lack of motivation to do anything that isn’t interesting. It has everything to do with how our brains process dopamine. And an ADHD brain struggles with it. It even looks different from a non-ADHD brain[1][2][3].
You can’t really know what it’s like to live with ADHD unless you have it. I think your entire argument around a dislike for disciplining is misguided. It might make them conform more to authority figures (out of a fear for their life). But they will not suddenly develop an ability to focus better on the task in front of them. They can’t, biologically.
So please give them a break, and don’t speak for them.
Comments like this really make me angry. As if the stigma surrounding getting help with your mental health weren’t enough, people feel the need to specifically attack parents seeking help for their children as lazy and uninterested in “truly helping” them. The slipperiness of an attack like this is that anyone can cite anecdotes (real or imagined) with an air of superiority, when you haven’t actually shown any credentials except cynicism and doubt. As a bonus, these comments tend to keep people who truly need help from seeking it, to avoid also being seen as weak or uncaring.
One thing in particular I’d like to call out:
> there is no known diagnostic test that can physically detect the presence of ADHD in the brain or some other organ, diagnosing ADHD is merely a matter of observing and interviewing the subject
Yes, the diagnostic for ADHD is based on observation. But why wouldn’t it be? The most obvious symptom is _behavior_, which doesn’t require probing your brain or blood vessels to test for. By the way, this is also true for many other maladies, from paranoia to the common cold. But if you’ve ever seen someone suffer from paranoia, you would instantly recognize it. A trained professional can diagnose non-obvious symptoms over time, with help from the patient. Dismissing the use of our strongest tools as “mere observation” is an oversimplification of the problem.
ADHD drugs are not methamphetamine, and it’s very ignorant, bigoted, and harmful for you to imply that they are. What scientific research did your pastor study before forming that opinion?
Sure, there is a slight difference in amphetamines and methampetamines, but by and large the positive and negative effects are damn near identical. The difference, as I understand it, are in the dosages required. The methyl group makes meth pass the blood-brain barrier much easier, which makes it much stronger and neurotoxic, but the substances are not too dissimilar.
So what if ADHD drugs are meth and/or meth-like? Cocaine derivatives are common in medicine (Lidocaine, Novocaine, etc..). Opium derivatives too. The dosage, not the substance, makes the poison. The only reason people get so up in arms about this topic is due to social stigmas and the BS propaganda from The War on Drugs.
I want to make sure you are aware that ADHD prescriptions for desoxyn are extremely rare to the point of being basically zero.
While I am sympathetic to your point that there shouldn’t be a stigma around using any prescribed medicine, I think it is irrelevant to this discussion because the fact of the matter is ADHD drugs just really aren’t the same thing as meth.
> desoxyn are extremely rare to the point of being basically zero.
It's truly a shame, because from anecdotes I have read, it apparently works so much better and with less side-effects. But you are right, it's not very common. I've asked doctors about it before. Some have literally never heard of it (though they could be feigning ignorance). None have been open to the idea, and from what some have told me -- good luck getting insurance to cover it.
> I think it is irrelevant to this discussion because the fact of the matter is ADHD drugs just really aren’t the same thing as meth.
"ADHD drugs" are a very wide brush. There are 4 commonly used non-stimulants, for example, and a few others used off-label (Wellbutrin, Modafinil, etc..)
Adderall and its ever increasing array of delivery mechanisms are the most common ADHD medication(s). Hell, you can lump Dex in there too since it's 75% the same drug.
But as for the difference in effects between M. Amp. and Mixed Amp. Salts, even this psychiatrist doesn't think the difference is as profound as I am lead to believe you think:
Why do you listen to scientific and/or medical advice from an adult who literally could not have dedicated his or her life to a study any further away from either field?
In fact the field of behavioral psychology and religion are amazingly closely aligned, and furthermore, there are many priests who obtained degrees and began professional careers before answering their vocations.
I also know several priests, some who are MDs, who specialize in religious fields such as bioethics. These priests are in high demand to advise bishops and hospitals (oh I am sorry, but did you not hear that the Catholic Church founded, established, and propagated the worldwide system of hospitals?)
Psychology is not really a science, so I am not surprised there. I lump all both religion and psychology into the same category as horoscopes, palm reading, fortune telling, Greek oracles, etc..
> did you not hear that the Catholic Church founded, established, and propagated the worldwide system of hospitals?
That is a massive list. Did any of them actually produce anything of value?
Does YouTube know we have ADHD even before we do? This was in my recommendations this week. I did not think I had ADHD since I am rarely hyperactive. But everything in this video fits me to a tee. Been looking for adult ADHD treatment here in India but apparently every single one of them is a pediatrician.
There’s two entire halves to ADHD. The hyperactive part is the one people usually know, but the attentive half is the part people aren’t aware of.
Diagnosed myself, predominantly inattentive with bits of hyperactive, mostly fidgeting. Executive dysfunction, issues keeping my train of thought, poor short term memory, motivation issues, and more are the other half.
1. There is external hyperactivity (like Ace Ventura or any other Jim Carey character)
2. There is internal hyperactivity (Racing thoughts, excessive talking, anxiety-like symptoms, etc.).
Those with ADHD all have hyperactivity, it just manifests differently across the subtypes (ADHD-Predominately Hyperactive, ADHD Predominately Inattentive, and ADHD-Combined).
Dr Russell Barkley is one of the world's leading ADHD researchers. I've seen this talk before, its really good and reflects modern diagnostics and treatment.
"He has been a paid consultant for pharmaceutical companies including Eli Lilly, McNeil, Janssen-Orth, Janssen-Cilag, Novartis, Shire, Takeda pharmaceuticals, and Theravance"
In this case there is absolutely zero conflict of interest I can assure you of that. The only conflict of interest he has is making people understand the severity of actual ADHD in adults and in children and how you don't grow out of it and how it can 100,000% ruin your life as it did to his brother.
Most of my friends in my circle have either been diagnosed with ADHD, are pursuing diagnosis, or/and are trying to convince me to pursue a diagnosis, despite me personally not feeling like I have anything. I can't help but feel like something worse is going on here. I know my sample size is small but is the prevalence really this high? From my perspective it seems like ADHD is becoming a "new normal", and I'm starting to question whether the "normal" person who does everything exactly on time with no hesitation, who is truly perfectly organized, even exists. Curious to hear others' thoughts on this.
I resonate with this — there are certainly disordered brains, and I think perhaps there are also well-ordered brains which are more sensitive to certain kinds of disruptions than other brains, but I definitely think a major aspect that many people are oblivious to (or willfully ignore) is the increasingly severe disorder of our modern society and workplace.
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[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 106 ms ] threadHowever, I don't have ADHD, so I can't comment on living with it.
The video is from 2014 - their are probably better treatments now https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.pn.2...
And there is a Show HN post on the front-page right about ADHD coaching for adults. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37252231
Thank you for providing insight, perspective and additional links that aren't just logs on a fire.
You promote civilization with such discourse, and I personally just felt the need to throw a TY out there.
I should also point out that I have both ADHD and rather high general intelligence. At any given IQ, measures of academic success are lower for those with ADHD. There's also survivor-bias in that I couldn't be posting this if I had died from reckless behavior.
Sometimes if you're lucky a different way of thinking/working happens to be useful, but most of the time it's a burden, and makes functioning in a society harder.
This whole “neurodivergecy is a gift!” “Celebrate your differences! Embrace your kinks!” thing is irksome to me. I know it isn’t intended in a bad way but, sometimes things aren’t a socially repressed positive just looking for love and attention. Not everybody gets a trophy.
Stimulants though, I know they work for some but boy, adhd + addictive drugs? Head scratcher. I have a nagging suspicion it’s the next OxyContin, personally. Maybe not on such a grand scale but I see negative effects in myself and others regularly. Maybe humans shouldn’t be hopped on speed so much?
If I am Icarus, then stimulants are my wax wings. Stimulants have been the cause and solution to most of my problems in life over the past decade.
Some days, I truly feel like I made a deal with the Devil. But what alternative do I have? The world has no sympathy and even less empathy. I want to survive in this world like everyone else.
Sure, I do not technically need them to survive. I wasn't even diagnosed until my early 20s. However, I've had a taste of the good life, and I can't go back.
I do not think I am clinically addicted, but I am very psychologically and physically dependent on stimulants.
One sick thought that occasionally ruminates inside my mind is that while I feel like the medications have helped me so much, I look around me -- look back on my life -- and I literally have accomplished nothing. I have nothing to show for any of it. Life is "stable", for sure. Same underpaid, miserable job for 7 years now, but really, that's it...
I do not care what any medical research paper or any doctor says. These medications are powerful psychoactive substances. I think they absolutely fuck with one's mind, and one's perception of reality albeit in subtle ways. I am starting to wonder if my perception of reality has been warped in to making me think I have been performing better than I actually have been all these years.
I'm not really sure how to end this scattered rant, but all I can say is that I've lost a lot of faith in psychiatry and psychology because of ADHD and its treatments. ADHD is the most treatable psychiatric condition? Seriously?
i had adhd diagnosed as a kid, medicated for a while, then stopped. didnt do great in school, just ok. struggled at uni with timekeeping and grades. made it decently, and then had some decent jobs.
got quite lucky, but always had issues with social skills and being too talkative. eventually got a tough job that needed a lot of personal initative and went back on meds. vyvanse has changed my life, allowed me to focus on my thoughts, keep organised, and not only helped me excel, but also fix my sleep schedule, get promoted, and just generally live like a normal person.
How long does Vyvanse last for you? At best I could only ever get 4-6 hours out of it.
Can't speak for all of them, but I don't feel any drive to take them beyond getting the positive effects. I even have a reminder otherwise I forget it.
It's basically a meme repeated by many people with ADHD by this point about how they forget to be addicted to those dangerous drugs.
But we have to remember not everyone has a legit prescription for these and that’s a big number of people too. There are absolutely pill mills for these drugs and they are very easy to find. Now I wonder about cardiac damage, or social damage from having the wrong type of people revved up to the max socially interacting. Look at some of the jarring/angry tik tok culture .
Look at Alex Jones, he’s had some interesting things to say in the past but at his worst he looks like he’s hopped up on adderall and booze and just spewing crazy poop. It’s just an example, please don’t get caught up on the specific example of what adderall can drive you to.
So at the end of the day, it’s a double edge sword. I’ve met many people who also were able to use narcotics responsibly and it helped them. It helps some, neutral for others, disaster for the rest.
My only real point is, it can help but please future reader treat them as serious drugs because they are serious. Yeah we give them to kids but they are not “kid safe.”
I'm on concerta, and was nervous to take it, because of all this fear mongering. I don't think you have malintent, but you gotta dial that back quite a lot. They started me on a tiny dose, even as an adult, and gave me a massive booklet with all possible information I couls have asked for. They said "Try this, see how it makes you feel, if it doesn't seem to help or has negative effects, we can figure something else out". Yes it's potentially addictive, but you shouldn't be going around putting the idea of turning into Alex Jones into anyone's head. That's ridiculous.
The major challenge for me is my attention gets "hung" in a way that I don't fully control. Sometimes it can get hung on a work topic, in which case I absolutely crush the project/feature etc. Other times, it gets hung on something it shouldn't and I can't be productive to save my life.
It also seems to come into play right at the end of a major project. It's very hard to wrap up the little details when I'm mentally ready to move onto the next thing.
I can't even read a page of a novel without getting slightly distracted, having to re-read sentences, etc. but I can program for 6+ hours straight. When the hyperfocus kicks in, then it's really hard to break away/distract myself. I'll forgo standing up, eating, etc. because I'm in the "zone" and I can't make myself break away until it's damn near unbearable.
And yeah, everything you describe is characteristic of ADHD. :)
This very post gives a BIG clue to what ADHD is at its core, an executive function disorder.
It means struggling to complete basic tasks. Like showing up for an appointment. Remembering that thing someone asked you to do. Or a commitment you made to someone else. Remembering to do your taxes. And actually doing them when your reminder goes off for the 10th time.
It’s a complete lack of motivation to do anything that isn’t interesting. It has everything to do with how our brains process dopamine. And an ADHD brain struggles with it. It even looks different from a non-ADHD brain[1][2][3].
You can’t really know what it’s like to live with ADHD unless you have it. I think your entire argument around a dislike for disciplining is misguided. It might make them conform more to authority figures (out of a fear for their life). But they will not suddenly develop an ability to focus better on the task in front of them. They can’t, biologically.
So please give them a break, and don’t speak for them.
Source: I have ADHD
1. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/315884
2. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11682-013-9269-5
3. https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2017170226
One thing in particular I’d like to call out:
> there is no known diagnostic test that can physically detect the presence of ADHD in the brain or some other organ, diagnosing ADHD is merely a matter of observing and interviewing the subject
Yes, the diagnostic for ADHD is based on observation. But why wouldn’t it be? The most obvious symptom is _behavior_, which doesn’t require probing your brain or blood vessels to test for. By the way, this is also true for many other maladies, from paranoia to the common cold. But if you’ve ever seen someone suffer from paranoia, you would instantly recognize it. A trained professional can diagnose non-obvious symptoms over time, with help from the patient. Dismissing the use of our strongest tools as “mere observation” is an oversimplification of the problem.
https://www.drugs.com/pro/desoxyn.html
Sure, there is a slight difference in amphetamines and methampetamines, but by and large the positive and negative effects are damn near identical. The difference, as I understand it, are in the dosages required. The methyl group makes meth pass the blood-brain barrier much easier, which makes it much stronger and neurotoxic, but the substances are not too dissimilar.
So what if ADHD drugs are meth and/or meth-like? Cocaine derivatives are common in medicine (Lidocaine, Novocaine, etc..). Opium derivatives too. The dosage, not the substance, makes the poison. The only reason people get so up in arms about this topic is due to social stigmas and the BS propaganda from The War on Drugs.
While I am sympathetic to your point that there shouldn’t be a stigma around using any prescribed medicine, I think it is irrelevant to this discussion because the fact of the matter is ADHD drugs just really aren’t the same thing as meth.
It's truly a shame, because from anecdotes I have read, it apparently works so much better and with less side-effects. But you are right, it's not very common. I've asked doctors about it before. Some have literally never heard of it (though they could be feigning ignorance). None have been open to the idea, and from what some have told me -- good luck getting insurance to cover it.
> I think it is irrelevant to this discussion because the fact of the matter is ADHD drugs just really aren’t the same thing as meth.
"ADHD drugs" are a very wide brush. There are 4 commonly used non-stimulants, for example, and a few others used off-label (Wellbutrin, Modafinil, etc..)
Adderall and its ever increasing array of delivery mechanisms are the most common ADHD medication(s). Hell, you can lump Dex in there too since it's 75% the same drug.
But as for the difference in effects between M. Amp. and Mixed Amp. Salts, even this psychiatrist doesn't think the difference is as profound as I am lead to believe you think:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
Why do you listen to scientific and/or medical advice from an adult who literally could not have dedicated his or her life to a study any further away from either field?
I also know several priests, some who are MDs, who specialize in religious fields such as bioethics. These priests are in high demand to advise bishops and hospitals (oh I am sorry, but did you not hear that the Catholic Church founded, established, and propagated the worldwide system of hospitals?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scient...
> did you not hear that the Catholic Church founded, established, and propagated the worldwide system of hospitals?
That is a massive list. Did any of them actually produce anything of value?
Diagnosed myself, predominantly inattentive with bits of hyperactive, mostly fidgeting. Executive dysfunction, issues keeping my train of thought, poor short term memory, motivation issues, and more are the other half.
Yeah I do this too. Never thought this could be classified as hyperactive.
1. There is external hyperactivity (like Ace Ventura or any other Jim Carey character)
2. There is internal hyperactivity (Racing thoughts, excessive talking, anxiety-like symptoms, etc.).
Those with ADHD all have hyperactivity, it just manifests differently across the subtypes (ADHD-Predominately Hyperactive, ADHD Predominately Inattentive, and ADHD-Combined).
I'm surprised this ended up on HN.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Barkley