There are some odd cases - e.g. a person who came back from a schooling programme from the US state department and was then arrested for supposed "incitement of ethnic tensions". Feels as if there might be a good bit left unsaid in cases like this.
However, the sheer number of cases is unsettling.
Just as well is, how little official information there seems to be. In lots of cases, people were either arrested by local police, but no charges are documented and no information on their whereabouts were given, or they straight up vanished. Once relatives do get information that there is a trial, there doesn't seem to be any way to get insight into the actual trial proceedings. I saw one case where authorities eventually stated that a person was "charged with crimes", pleaded guilty and are now serving their sentence, without even just specifying what kind of "crimes" the charges where about or without giving any reference to the trial or indicating what their sentence is or where they serve it.
(Site seems to have trouble right now, so I can't get the links back. Will try to add them later)
This came up in our alerts, so just some comments:
A major reason for any incompleteness is that Xinjiang in general is an information vacuum, which is something that people in over 90% of the world would struggle to get their heads around, never having lived in such a controlled place. You cannot just call local authorities and have them send you relevant information, or consult local government websites/databases, or simply call your friends there and ask, because them telling you could be seen as leaking secrets, collaborating with foreign forces, etc. Of course, that doesn't mean that none of the above ever happen (in rare cases, a local office might actually say something, or an official database might happen to give someone's court verdict, or someone there is brave enough to share something, but this is a tiny fraction of cases). So, we compile all the info there is, crosscheck what is possible when it becomes possible, and let users make their own judgements.
When the project started in 2018, a lot relied on personal testimony from relatives, a lot of it from Kazakhs of Xinjiang origin in Kazakhstan, who put together 1000s of testimony videos and uploaded them on YouTube, with some Uyghurs around the world also following suit, though in smaller numbers. For a while, this was the only real way, even if very imperfect, to get information about what was happening to the concrete individuals there. Starting in early 2020, this started to change as more government and police documents started to leak or get hacked, in some cases containing entire lists of people in villages or towns who were detained, and which could be effectively crosschecked because these documents usually contain their ID numbers. Because many of these were obtained through different and independent channels, they essentially corroborate one another's validity by all the matching details there are, in addition to corroborating many of the personal testimonies, when the people testified for have appeared in these documents. In our experience, there has not been a document leaked/hacked that we've analyzed so far that has looked inauthentic, or the number of inconsistencies would be too great (which is something we are on the lookout for). Today, the database is largely sourced directly from police and government records, and relies significantly less on personal testimony.
We strongly recommend that people read (or skim, if too long) the primary-evidence report that we update in real time: https://shahit.biz/xjvictims_primary.pdf. Everything that's in there (1100+ pages) is raw evidence from the ground, the majority directly from the government/police and translated/curated for those who do not know enough Chinese to look at the originals themselves (which we also make available).
It's hard to ignore people who post lazy conclusions like "there's propaganda on both sides, and each side has their own story, so we don't know the truth". This actually sounds like what someone from the pro-CCP camp would write, actually, since that sort of obfuscation is precisely what the authorities there would desire, muddying the waters and shelving the topic while they continue to get away with the acts they've committed. If you actually try to analyze who the arguing sides are, you'll see that basically any Uyghur abroad is horrified and traumatized by what's happening (just find an Uyghur restaurant or community in your vicinity and ask), as well as every researcher/academic who has lived in Xinjiang and has significant connections there, many of whom have publicly worked to raise this issue. On the other side, you have China-based online influencers, many of whom have no experience in the Xinjiang region but who in late 2019 suddenly started repeating the government propaganda talking points and have been magnified by the state apparatus, or Chinese gov...
> It's hard to ignore people who post lazy conclusions like "there's propaganda on both sides, and each side has their own story, so we don't know the truth". This actually sounds like what someone from the pro-CCP camp would write, actually, since that sort of obfuscation is precisely what the authorities there would desire, muddying the waters and shelving the topic while they continue to get away with the acts they've committed.
I didn't mean to come of as some sort of propaganda machine, I've been digging through this thing a lot for a while and tried to stay as neutral as possible.
You mentioned an interesting keyword, information vaccum which perfectly describes my feeling regarding this!
When I talked about "propaganda from both sides", I was thinking of the US funded news organisations like rfa.org, benarnews (and their history with CIA to spread an agenda and one-sided information)
I try my best to not rely solely on a single piece of source but instead put togheter multiple sources to make up my mind.
Other reports like the OIC-countries visiting these reeducatation (concentration) camps in Xinjiang and later praising China felt weird, why would they? Is it because of Chinas massive investment in these countries?
I struggle to agree with the author's conclusion on the second article:
> It’s a strange thing: people hand-wring about the proliferation of pro-China propaganda, yet cannot name a single network or pundit associated with that view.
China, perhaps? Why is the author so willing to ascribe uniform authoritarianism to American media while ignoring China's state-owned journalism?
The whole thing is written with a hopelessly apologetic tone. The forced link to Nazi Germany just sinks this article for me, especially since it denies discussion of actual moral polemics like impunity and transparency.
Either way, its hard to tell the actual truth from lies in this case. Is something going in with the Muslims and the CCP or is it a false narrative pushed by the west?
I don't know. The CCP gets cagey when people try to document their regime and take it abroad; in America, those journalists are protected by constitutional charter.
Draw your own conclusions. I think the messaging around either administration speaks for itself.
17 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 52.8 ms ] threadHowever, the sheer number of cases is unsettling.
Just as well is, how little official information there seems to be. In lots of cases, people were either arrested by local police, but no charges are documented and no information on their whereabouts were given, or they straight up vanished. Once relatives do get information that there is a trial, there doesn't seem to be any way to get insight into the actual trial proceedings. I saw one case where authorities eventually stated that a person was "charged with crimes", pleaded guilty and are now serving their sentence, without even just specifying what kind of "crimes" the charges where about or without giving any reference to the trial or indicating what their sentence is or where they serve it.
(Site seems to have trouble right now, so I can't get the links back. Will try to add them later)
Edit:
Here we go: https://www.shahit.biz/eng/#9594
A major reason for any incompleteness is that Xinjiang in general is an information vacuum, which is something that people in over 90% of the world would struggle to get their heads around, never having lived in such a controlled place. You cannot just call local authorities and have them send you relevant information, or consult local government websites/databases, or simply call your friends there and ask, because them telling you could be seen as leaking secrets, collaborating with foreign forces, etc. Of course, that doesn't mean that none of the above ever happen (in rare cases, a local office might actually say something, or an official database might happen to give someone's court verdict, or someone there is brave enough to share something, but this is a tiny fraction of cases). So, we compile all the info there is, crosscheck what is possible when it becomes possible, and let users make their own judgements.
When the project started in 2018, a lot relied on personal testimony from relatives, a lot of it from Kazakhs of Xinjiang origin in Kazakhstan, who put together 1000s of testimony videos and uploaded them on YouTube, with some Uyghurs around the world also following suit, though in smaller numbers. For a while, this was the only real way, even if very imperfect, to get information about what was happening to the concrete individuals there. Starting in early 2020, this started to change as more government and police documents started to leak or get hacked, in some cases containing entire lists of people in villages or towns who were detained, and which could be effectively crosschecked because these documents usually contain their ID numbers. Because many of these were obtained through different and independent channels, they essentially corroborate one another's validity by all the matching details there are, in addition to corroborating many of the personal testimonies, when the people testified for have appeared in these documents. In our experience, there has not been a document leaked/hacked that we've analyzed so far that has looked inauthentic, or the number of inconsistencies would be too great (which is something we are on the lookout for). Today, the database is largely sourced directly from police and government records, and relies significantly less on personal testimony.
We strongly recommend that people read (or skim, if too long) the primary-evidence report that we update in real time: https://shahit.biz/xjvictims_primary.pdf. Everything that's in there (1100+ pages) is raw evidence from the ground, the majority directly from the government/police and translated/curated for those who do not know enough Chinese to look at the originals themselves (which we also make available).
It's hard to ignore people who post lazy conclusions like "there's propaganda on both sides, and each side has their own story, so we don't know the truth". This actually sounds like what someone from the pro-CCP camp would write, actually, since that sort of obfuscation is precisely what the authorities there would desire, muddying the waters and shelving the topic while they continue to get away with the acts they've committed. If you actually try to analyze who the arguing sides are, you'll see that basically any Uyghur abroad is horrified and traumatized by what's happening (just find an Uyghur restaurant or community in your vicinity and ask), as well as every researcher/academic who has lived in Xinjiang and has significant connections there, many of whom have publicly worked to raise this issue. On the other side, you have China-based online influencers, many of whom have no experience in the Xinjiang region but who in late 2019 suddenly started repeating the government propaganda talking points and have been magnified by the state apparatus, or Chinese gov...
I didn't mean to come of as some sort of propaganda machine, I've been digging through this thing a lot for a while and tried to stay as neutral as possible.
You mentioned an interesting keyword, information vaccum which perfectly describes my feeling regarding this!
When I talked about "propaganda from both sides", I was thinking of the US funded news organisations like rfa.org, benarnews (and their history with CIA to spread an agenda and one-sided information)
I try my best to not rely solely on a single piece of source but instead put togheter multiple sources to make up my mind.
Other reports like the OIC-countries visiting these reeducatation (concentration) camps in Xinjiang and later praising China felt weird, why would they? Is it because of Chinas massive investment in these countries?
The Chinese consulate claims it to be fabricated though. http://sydney.china-consulate.gov.cn/eng/zt/888j/202104/t202...
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220654.shtml
See also https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
It's kind off scary how far propaganda can reach, I thought more news outlets would be more critical than spreading it further if that is the case.
Aren't you a bit concerned with source you linked being closely related to the CCP?
You’re posting actual CCP propaganda here.
> It’s a strange thing: people hand-wring about the proliferation of pro-China propaganda, yet cannot name a single network or pundit associated with that view.
China, perhaps? Why is the author so willing to ascribe uniform authoritarianism to American media while ignoring China's state-owned journalism?
The whole thing is written with a hopelessly apologetic tone. The forced link to Nazi Germany just sinks this article for me, especially since it denies discussion of actual moral polemics like impunity and transparency.
Draw your own conclusions. I think the messaging around either administration speaks for itself.