TV's are becoming intrusive and abusive; what to do about it?
As I say in a Reddit post [0], I didn't go to the store to buy a remotely controlled ever-changing remotely-controlled digital advertising platform to hang in our family room.
I didn't go to the store to buy a data gathering device to plant into my home.
I didn't go to the store to provide a TV manufacturer with, as they say in their newest terms of service:
"grant and agree to grant to VIZIO and its affiliates and licensees, a non-exclusive, transferable, revocable, royalty-free right and license (with right to sublicense) to use, reproduce, publicly display, publicly perform, adapt, collect, modify, delete from, distribute, transmit, promote and make derivative works of the VIZIOgram Content, in any form"
This device, which cost well over $2,000 is the source of stress and consternation.
When family and friends come over for a visit, it is impossible to control what they click on. The "home page" is full of ads.
They have a service through which you upload your family photos into their cloud service. The above license is just one aspect of what they grab from consumers without consent.
I say "without consent" because of several realities.
- They do not make you read and sign anything when you buy the product. Go to the store to buy a TV. You walk away with a big box and no disclosures of any kind. The plastic bag they ship it in has more visible disclosures than the device itself.
- How about the terms of use/service? Nobody reads 34 pages of nonsense (assuming they can find it).
- If you have the TV installed by the shop where you bought it, they set it up and walk away. You never agreed to anything.
- They constantly change and update firmware and TOU/S. You never agree to anything.
In short, they take advantage of consumers and tend to become abusive about just how far they push it. This multi-thousand-dollar TV is now a fully remote-controlled digital ad serving system in my family room. That is not what I signed-up for and not what I bought at all.
I just want a TV.
What about watching network TV with ads? Isn't that an advertising platform in your home?
Sure, except that I can choose to tune in or not. And the TV station doesn't modify the software in my TV to deliver more and more ads into my screen.
Interestingly enough, in a prior job I designed image processing boards to drive LCD and other display modules. Part of me has been thinking it is time to engineer a "TV Lobotomizer" board that can be used to modify these TV's and completely remove all such capabilities while (via open source) giving the consumer full control of what happens with their TV.
Sorry if that came off as a huge rant. With the last software update this thing has just gone over a threshold that is simply intolerable. Actively looking for solutions.
I think this kind of consumer protection has to be undertaken by government. I am not one to automatically reach for that kind of a solution. However, it has become beyond clear that TV manufacturers are perfectly happy abusing consumers as far as they can go. The only expedient way to fix this might be some kind of a law that forces full user control of every single feature on a TV and an absolute iron-clad privacy requirement. If a customer chooses to pierce that protection, they should be free to do so after informed consent and have every right to take it all back.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/VIZIO_Official/comments/162xuop/p75qxh1_ready_to_hire_an_attorney/
113 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 93.0 ms ] threadSadly that means you’re also buying the device to plug it into, which is an AppleTV in my case.
I've heard of this but I've never actually seen this in person. A google, ddg, and even a leddit search doesn't bring up anything.
> , Sidewalk can help simplify new device setup, extend the low-bandwidth working range of devices to help find pets or valuables with Tile trackers, and help devices stay online even if they are outside the range of their home wifi.
https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...
Also, the LoRa bandwidth is shared. It isn't 50 kbps per device but everybody within a mile or two. Also, the 50 kbps rate has a pretty short range. The normal, long range LoRa bandwidth is more like 5 kbps.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...
[2] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/devices/amazon-ces-2023-ann...
The only other options are cellular, which manufacturer is not going to pay for a modem and service, or LoRa, which is way too low bandwidth for leaking any data.
It doesn't have data price but is capped 500MB per account per month.
There's no evidence of Smart TVs connecting in this way.
You can hope that you're achieving the same effect, unless the manufacturer has shipped the device with software that will scan for open wireless networks and send its collected data out once it finds a network that allows it Internet access. The TV I got was an Amazon Fire TV, so for all I know the thing is going to some day silently connect to some kind of mesh network built out of the Ring doorbells my neighbors have. Physically removing the networking hardware gives me much better peace of mind, and prevents some well-meaning future house sitter from briefly plugging in an ethernet cable and allowing the device to upload years of collected data or something.
> Sadly that means you’re also buying the device to plug it into
I don't see what's sad about that. I'd much rather have that functionality be provided by a separate device that I can replace or upgrade without trashing the whole TV. I see other people with smart TVs that are a few years old and half their "apps" no longer work because the technologies used by the services backing them have changed and the TV doesn't support them.
1. Those without the means and who are uninformed have less privacy and 2. It’s a waste of resources to not use the computer built into the TV and have to by another one for the sake of privacy.
I dont go as far is desoldering ports, but day 1 everything I can disable is, and they get a device I control in HDMI 1.
The first point is indeed tragic. But I think some of the blame has to fall on the consumer for failing to keep abreast of changes, and for not forcing manufacturers to change their ways.
We're super quick to cancel companies for social justice stuff, but not for spying on us?
While firmware updates can be applied that way, here's hoping for a future OpenTV OS with all the desired features and none of the bolt on merchant wares.
I worried a bit about this when I was deciding to provide content to my unnetworked Toshiba Fire TV using a Roku device.
Yeah, Roku... at least it's not Amazon, hopefully it's not communicating what's on other HDMI sources, and so far the TV's not superimposing its own ad streams.
Whole setup was bought piecemeal on sale, and was a "good enough" compromise for the limited stuff I watch.
P.S. The TV's just old enough that, especially without any updates, I may have escaped the open/public/mesh wifi "enhancements" that apparently are becoming more common. I guess I should poke through settings and see whether I can find a system and/or firmware date or version number...
The point is that the "just don't connect it to the internet" response is neither sufficient nor correct.
If a manufacturer ever _does_ ship a TV that will look for and auto connect to open networks, I'm curious if they would think to still do that, even if the TV is connected to a closed network. My guess is that they probably wouldn't (generally not worth the time to program for edge cases). So you could connected to a virtual network that doesn't have WAN access. The TV is connected to a network so (likely) wouldn't look for open networks, and still can't phone home or download updates.
"all" is a word I avoid, because of 2 reasons:
1. It's hard to have 100% knowledge of anything.
2. It is possible that it's currently being done, just not discovered yet. Consider the Volkswagen emissions scandal, Amazon ring spying scandal, Tesla spying scandal, etc. They aren't known about until they are discovered and reported to the correct place. That's the nature of people who flout privacy. It's probably happening somewhere already and just hasn't been found.
I assume that anything that has the ability to leak my private information, probably is leaking it to someone, and then take whatever steps I can to mitigate it. I'm not claiming absolute success, but at least I'm trying!
Furthermore, the more technology that you know about simply makes you more aware of the possibilities. I worked for a cell phone company a decade ago who also sold services to electronics manufacturers to add SMS-based communication to otherwise unconnected devices. In other words, if wifi is down or blocked, an SMS could be sent (small payloads, of course) as a backup. In grad school I listened to a presentation by a small, local newspaper that bragged about tracking people around town via bluetooth and wifi that people left enabled on their phones, and that their sensors were hidden in the newspaper stands around town.
So, yeah, I don't trust anyone who has a financial incentive to spy on me.
I bought an Nvidia Shield in the hopes that it would alleviate some of my annoyances but honestly I have grown to hate the thing.
Apart from that though, I just find mine to be somewhat painful to use. The UI often just freezes up and won't respond. Recently I've been dealing with sound dropout on multiple apps - have tried a few different troubleshooting steps, none of which have helped. The "voice" integration from Google shuts down the whole box for 30 seconds at a time every time you accidentally finger the mic button on the remote. The special Netflix button on the remote is annoyingly easy to hit, which stops whatever you're playing.
Some stuff is Android TV specific. These aren't really the Shield's fault per se, but most apps do a very poor job of resuming where you left off. God help you if you accidentally send Max to the background, enjoy scrolling through 3 pages of crap to get back to what you were watching. Or if you want any form of parental controls that might prevent your kids from getting onto YouTube - you're stuck with the irritating "restricted profile".
I think really my problem is that I bought the base model (the tube shaped one) instead of the Pro. I imagine a lot of the performance related stuff I've seen would be better with a bit more horsepower. But my current experience has not made me super enthusiastic about the prospect of buying a more expensive model.
A lot of this might seem like nitpicking, but when you've got a dozen nits, that can add up to a lot of annoyance. I can't help but remember how seemingly flawless the experience of Netflix and Hulu were on my Xbox 360 like 10 years ago and wonder how the current landscape is so frustrating.
I hate the standard launcher it's become so bad.
And with a retractable screen you have a (giant) TV when you want one, and it's gone when you're not using it.
This won't work for everyone (you need a proper space for it, generally involves some degree of installation that your landlord will not appreciate, and doesn't look great during the day) but if you can make it work it's great.
But they’re the new ultra short throw (UST) projectors and screen technologies seem way better, though not cheap.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/How-UST-Screens-Let-You-See...
they have it all anyway.
I hate that rationale just so very, very much.
Additional fun fact, no matter whether you're watching streaming or cable, your TV can identify what you're watching and report it back to advertisers. Automatic Content Recognition, the future of TV advertising!
https://advertising.roku.com/resources/blog/insights-analysi...
> Roughly twice per second, a Roku TV captures video “snapshots” in 4K resolution. These snapshots are scanned through a database of content and ads, which allows the exposure to be matched to what is airing. For example, if a streamer is watching an NFL football game and sees an ad for a hard seltzer, Roku’s ACR will know that the ad has appeared on the TV being watched at that time. In this way, the content on screen is automatically recognized, as the technology’s name indicates. The data then is paired with user profile data to link the account watching with the content they’re watching. We should note, however, that this data becomes aggregated, removing personally identifiable information before it is received by advertisers.
But surely that data tracked on your user profile is totally secure and no one could ever misuse it for anything (beyond the aggregated tracking, which is already creepy). Just trust them, it's fine!
Most TVs have a setting to go to the last used input or a specific input on startup, so set that to whatever box you use to watch stuff and you won't have to look at the menu.
My Sony doesn’t have that mode but it works great totally offline hooked up to receiver and Apple TV nevertheless.
Or they could just build a cellular modem into the TV. It's all about whether the payoff is worth the cost.
But TVs have become so hopelessly enshittified I would support legislation at this point. I am sure they are making a lot of money serving these ads ensuring the behavior will only continue and no "normal tvs" will even be sold.
I went to settings and opted out of everything I could, and only hook up via Ethernet to update firmware.
“Just use tape”
How long until it’s a message on-screen covering up what you want to watch? Or even preventing you from watching?
There is only one fix: regulation. Good luck with that. We’re doomed.
But can you get 120hz? Or VRR? Low latency? Any other good feature?
I doubt it. I suspect (as it seems you do) that if you want anything past a bog-standard tv you’re out of luck.
So people buy them, even people who (like many ok HN) hate “smart TVs” and intend to only use it as a monitor for an Apple TV, Chromecast, cable box, etc.
What do do about it? Do not, under any circumstance, ever buy a smart TV.
1. Setup pihole on your home network
2. Disconnect smart tv from the Internet and get a Roku/Apple TV/Nvidia shield. While the former still have adds they seem to be better behaved.
This makes the experience much more manageable.
https://www.dealnews.com/features/tv/smart-tv/
If you don't like Vizio? don't buy Vizio. Speak with your wallet.
IE: Best-Buy Non-Smart
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?_dyncharset=UTF-...
LED NonSmart: https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100167585%20600483673
Just because the display cases have the smart tvs doesn't mean dumb tvs don't exist.
And again... what are you going to do? Yell at walmart for selling what... sells? Go riot against a factory in China? A support group that has puppies and coloring books in their safe room?
What exactly are you going to do other than spend your money on stuff you want to support what you want?
If we restrict ourselves to speaking with the wallet, the 'discourse' gets more inegalitarian and less democratic
I've historically bought Vizio's because I liked the inclusion but recently have decided to not because I don't like the direction they are going. I'm happy with a stupid chromecast or playing plex through my <console of choice>.
What is "less democratic" about literally voting with your wallet? Support your shows on patreon. donate to channels on youtube.
Not sure how supporting what you want is "inegalitarian". it's literally the result of using your voice and your support to prop up what you like. Is that not, in essence, democracy? Something gets more "unequal" because people support it - literally democracy.
What's your alternative? Government force to keep things "equal"? Keep things "just" and "fair" with ever increasing government intervention? Not sure you understand what democracy is if that's what your suggesting.
The fact that some people get more votes. Voice, keystrokes, going to the streets is more accessible.
I am not saying dont vote with your wallet. I am saying do vote in all possible ways. Complain, tell people, talk to your representative, create ballot proposals.
Often 'vote with your wallet' is offered as a substitute for the other, more acessible, more powerful means of expression. More powerful especially for those that have smaller wallets.
So I think it requires a complement. "yes, and" :P
The current status-quo is that TV manufacturers abuse and intrude with abandon because nobody is making a fuss about it and politicians are too busy trying to throw each other in jail.
I also wonder, if a Pi-Hole or Firewall could help you deal with this - you could sniff what IPs the TV is trying to connect to and block them manually or even better block them all via MAC address?
99.9% of the population like seeing ads and being spied on?
I hooked up an Intel NUC with Linux on it and factory reset the TV and blackholed it's MAC. No more spying.
What I want:
- A display panel that looks decent.
- A decent HDMI switch built-in, 5 inputs seems fair enough.
- A remote control that can send inputs over CEC.
- Automatic power off when there's no connection.
What I get:
- Advertisements everywhere.
- Tizen, the most miserable operating system I've had the displeasure of trying to use, and its godforsaken app store of garbage.
- Display processing that makes everything look horrifying by default.
- A game mode that improves latency from horrific to awful but causes really strange and confusing glitches.
- An ecosystem of very questionable hardware. Overpriced speakers inside of a plastic shell with a bunch of marketing attached, that barely work, and require taking one of the two or three HDMI ports you have for full functionality.
- If you dare connect it to the internet, you are subjected to ACR and data collection that should probably flat out be outlawed.
I didn't ask for any of this, but Samsung et al. need more revenue sources for these things I guess, that I don't believe they even sell at a loss anyway.
At this point I'm wondering if there is a single fucking thing I will ever buy in the future that I won't become completely disillusioned with. There's also my car, which has software brakes, and there's a known software bug that can cause them to error when you start the car sometimes, and it's not even an EV, where I'm sure I could experience the hell of tomorrow, today.
HDMI with Ethernet: What is it and How Does it Work?
https://thehometheaterdiy.com/hdmi-with-ethernet/
Understanding HDMI vs Ethernet vs. HDMI with Ethernet: The Guide
https://nassaunationalcable.com/blogs/blog/understanding-hdm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
You need to do something about pin14 on your HDMI port and maybe go without ARC capability
Congratulations. Now by using both legal and illegal methods you can watch pretty much every TV show or movie ever, probably with no ads. And if you choose illegal methods, it will usually be free. You can also play just about every video game ever.
And what's great is you only have one box under the TV. That's it. A very clean setup. Throw every other box in the trash. You won't need them. A real computer can do everything they do, and more.
An AppleTV can be an acceptable choice because you can use a Mac and Airplay, which is sort of effectively the same thing as having the Mac directly connected to the TV.
I've lived with this setup for almost 20 years now, and it still can't be beat. I really don't understand why anyone with the technical knowledge to set this up would choose anything else.
https://rog.asus.com/us/monitors/above-34-inches/rog-swift-o...