> FDA has approved several first generics of Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine dimesylate) capsules and chewable tablets for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in patients six years and older and moderate to severe binge-eating disorder (BED) in adults. See Vyvanse’s prescribing information for details on dosing.
Then again if I remember correctly, Vyvanse isn't something you can get a continual high from like traditional amphetamines. : I may be completely mis-renembering that.
Ideally, people should be given options. Teach them how they can possibly control their concentration and mood, how (what) to eat healthy avoiding deficits and excesses which make that hard, remove anxiety-inducing, depressing and distracting factors then give them the meds to try and let them decide what do they feel like sticking to. Sadly, most of the people don't get any of these things: they are not really taught anything, their works and lives are crazy and unsatisfying and the ADHD meds are either illegal or very hard to get prescribed (especially if you are an adult) outside of the USA.
Your point is very interesting though. It sounds pretty obvious but I never thought about this this way. I am going to look some proofs up and steal this for future arguments.
Vyvanse is so safe there's no need to give people "options" instead of it. Especially since non-medical "options" barely work on people with ADHD unless they spend almost all their effort 24/7 on coping.
I once secured a box of Ritalin. It does wonders to me (sadly it was never possible for me to receive legally) but I feel the way I don't quite like once it wears off in some hours. Is Vyvanse better? At the same time as I slowly work on the other options I mentioned I get the sense of meaning, improvement, progress in gaining what will stay with me wherever I go. Practicing and progressing in these feel like the very sense my job makes, otherwise it would feel like "work another month, pay the bills, grow the savings a bit and gain nothing real". So I stick to the options and take the meds sporadically. And I don't quite like the idea of putting ever-increasing stress and suboptimal working and living conditions on people and sort of telling them "just take your meds and work".
It's actually pretty strong for me and I don't even take much. It's better with a secondary nonstimulant medication, but it's happened to me that I'd suddenly not have the willpower to go home from work or would have to nap around 6pm.
That said, the nonstimulant ADHD meds all have worse side effects and can't be discontinued without tapering.
I think Ritalin is safest. Vyvanse can have some fairly serious mental side effects: mania, bi polar tendencies: New or worse behavior and thought problems
New or worse bipolar illness
New or worse psychotic symptoms, such as:
Seeing things or hearing voices that are not real
Believing things that are not true
Being suspicious
New or worse manic symptoms. Depression, suicidal thoughts.
Don’t people acclimatise to them? Biggest reason I don’t take Vyanse is because I’m worried it’ll stop working (like modafinil did) but leave me addicted to it
Sure, you're going to feel like crap for a week or so if you stop Vyvanse after taking it for a while (I know I did). But since a therapeutical dose is nowhere near a recreational one, the risk of developing a craving for it (which is really what addiction is all about) is low.
Heck, I've had more problems weaning myself off of diclofenac.
Long part of my life on Adderall and decent amount on Vyvanse at one point and never noticed any actual addictive cravings, like you mention.
Sure, when I stop I feel kinda crappy... But... I'm not on a stimulant that I had been on. I'm just not as 'up'. Not as focused. Etc. Never any actual withdrawals or cravings for either though. Gets very tiring how many people that probably never have regularly used either like to pull out their megaphones and yell about how they are addictive.
Why don't we worry about ultra processed foods, high sugar intake... Things like that that are actually a problem for a LOT of people? People focus on the oddest things.
I think to an extent this is essentially just redirecting the preexisting addiction (edit: remove issues) onto a drug that simply produces normative behavior, specifically behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual.
For those that aren't already addicted to something, say those with adhd, I wonder to what extent their environment is causing the issues that they seek to solve with a stimulant.
Well I am all for legalisation in general, but replacing illegal drugs with legal drugs other than doing something that is acceptable for the society, being the illegal drugs non-accepted, it would also mean that you aren't going to fund drug cartels, ghettos, traffickers, or in general you're not going to end up in a morgue with fentanyl, so for me, in modern context, that's still a big win
Without medication, I feel much less in control of my mind. It's like I'm in a mind-fog; every long-term thought is blurry and vague so everything tends to become about the short-term. I know that eating this sugary garbage is bad for me but the immediate dopamine gratification massively outweighs that knowledge. Same with tasks I know I need to complete. I know that doing them is the correct thing to do and that procrastinating on them will not be beneficial for me overall, but I just can't "see" that future in my mind.
I don't think this is caused by my environment. Feeling like you are unable to think a clear thought is not because clear thoughts conform with modern society's ideas of a highly productive an obedient individual. For me it's simply a feeling of not being a whole human. Medication addresses this to a very significant degree, although it's by no means a complete fix.
I also use glasses, and I find similarities there. Without them my eyesight is blurry and I cannot see things beyond a very short distance. Are glasses simply producing normative behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual? Is it really the environment that is causing me to think of bad eyesight as an issue to be addressed? Obviously not; being able to see clearly is something you want regardless of environment. I think that the same applies to being able to think clearly.
I don’t think it’s overstated. It’s just one of those things where some people can’t handle it and end up in a serious downward spiral but others stick to therapeutic use that positively changes their whole life, so the latter group always has to prove they’re not in the former group.
Everyone I knew in uni was on Adderall XR and some people overdid it, like making these crazy manic posts on Facebook and staying cracked out for days on a train of big redoses. There are real risks.
And because of that, any time I go to a new doctor, I have to deal with them side eyeing me as I try to prove to them I’m not just a pill seeking junkie even though I’ve been taking it for 15 years. It can be so dehumanizing, like I’m a child of a parent that goes to see if I really did clean my room like I said I did.
I've used vyvanse before for a good amount of time and had no addictive issues with it? Same with Adderall. Could just not take them for days or weeks with zero issue, and I'm someone that had teetered on the edge of addiction with other substances in the past. So, I think this could be helpful to people with BED
Vyvanse is basically the same thing as normal extended release amphetamine except it lasts longer with a gentler up down curve.
So you can abuse it the same way. It just lasts longer.
The continual high you can get on a large dose is the same, just less peaky.
> Giving an addictive stimulant to food addicts
Yeah, amphetamine has so many effects beyond appetite suppression that it’s a pretty blunt instrument for that. GLP1 agonists like Ozempic seem far more promising since they don’t have the ability to crack you out.
Also anxiolytic. And seeing as anxiety disorders are highly prevalent among people with ADHD, and untreated anxiety can really mess with your life, maybe people should stop stigmatising psychostimulants so much.
Those working environments already exist, but maybe you are not interested in them. People with ADHD are advised to do jobs that require one to be on their feet. Sitting behind a desk is unfortunately one of the worst things you can do if you cannot focus easily.
I imagine a high quality plumbing company requires someone inspect the quality of work, discussing with potential clients in person, and other such non desk work. Perhaps even getting one’s own hands “dirty”.
This is what the three people I have known that owned umbing companies did. They had someone they paid to handle a lot of the simple repetitive computer stuff (probably could even automate a lot of that now but I don't think they were people who would have though about that) and they would hop to different current job sites to check on work being done, check in with contractors to make sure work is good and employees are good, go to potential new job sites to meet with contractors or home owners, etc.
Actually, it does still involve lots of on your feet work. The owner is more often going between current sites to check work that's being done, going to new potential sites to talk with contractors and/or potential customers, etc. Yes, they also are handling the business end but for a plumbing company that doesn't mean you are at a computer all day, there isnt enough atuff for you yo donin that aspext to keep you busy.
I got involved in myltiple geoups at work. I support several of them with the same domain expertise, but a few others are related or even unrelated donains. I write software for several of them. I don't wfh so this involves walking between areas or buildings on the campus to be with those groups. The complete context switch does help. It is all I had for many years. But Vyvanse has helped a lot too.
Exactly. Doing all my life software development, since I was kid. I don't have any other skills. I have been considering becoming a cook, or going into the military tho. But it's hard to do when your personality wired around computers, and you have to change it.
Same issue, except the cook part. The only viable option is building a product in a niche not yet bastardised by corporate. There are some out there just need to dig hard.
Favorite job I ever had was managing this small country store gas station when I was like 19-21 years old. Also managing a coffee shop. If I could do one of those and make a real living wage and be able to save for retirement and life stuffs I would do that RIGHT now. But.... That ain't happening. So. I sit at my desk yelling at my code. Man it is so hard to get started each day though. Some days it takes a couple hours to really get going on my actual work. And it isn't for lack of trying. It's so infuriating, wearing, and disheartening.
I mean you can absolutely work behind a desk in certain setups where you dont have that many distractions. Also tech jobs are becoming increasingly less desirable and i also encourage people to consider alternatives.
It's a good thing that ADHD has nothing to do with "not being able to focus easily" then.
ADHD means "I don't choose what I focus on", which poses some management challenges, but in an environment where there's always a lot of various interesting tasks to choose from and a team of people where others can take care of things you end up neglecting because your focus has changed, one can still thrive sitting behind a desk. In fact, my ADHD barely ever takes me away from my desk (unless making it too cluttered to sit there and moving with a laptop to a couch counts).
Maintaining your health, house and relationships is not as easy though.
The cause of ADHD has not been confirmed yet, but it is generally claimed to be related to dopamine production and uptake.
I certainly had ADHD before being exposed to work environments. I've had my entire life. But it wasn't until I got my diagnosis, and started taking medication for it, that my square-peg of an existence began to fit in with the round-hole of reality.
Work environments have nothing to do with it for me. In fact, I love my job. Here, my ADHD is something of a benefit. I've excelled at everything I have found enjoyable, and have no qualms with working insane crunch on the stuff I like.
The key word there being like. If I don't like doing it, it's practically impossible for me to do. Or rather, if it's mundane or otherwise just "not interesting", I struggle. Strangely enough, I have an easier time accomplishing things I actively dislike doing. Not sure why.
It's like my body is controlled by an autopilot gone rogue, and the medication helps me override it.
For example, I have trouble going to the bathroom to take a piss. Not because of any phobia or anything. I just cant. Literally. I'll sit and squirm until I'm about to piss myself, and only then will I go to the bathroom. Been doing that since I was a little kid.
One way around it is to trick myself somehow, like by putting on a podcast, even though I'll only hear like 20 seconds of it. Couldn't do that as a kid, tho. Back then, I would wait until it became physically painful, because only then would my rogue autopilot allow me to go piss.
Doing laundry? Impossible. Vacuuming? No. Washing dishes? Well, now I have a dishwasher, but emptying it? No way.
That is, unless I take my medication (methylphenidate). It doesn't make mundane things any less mundane. It's still boring to brush my teeth and piss. It just makes it possible.
I didn't get my diagnosis until I was 28. My entire life I've been struggling with this. It's a primary factor in my lifelong battle with depression. It's lead me down a path of substance abuse — alcohol and cocaine in particular.
Despite all of this, I still second-guess myself on whether I truly have ADHD. What if I'm just a drug addict, and I just tricked a psychiatrist into giving me those sweet sweet drugs?
There are varying degrees of adhd, and indeed some require medication. My comment is more against having medication as a default solution. Obviously poorly phrased as it may have offended someone, and i apologise for that. Also thank you for your comment, it does help me better understand the topic.
Judging from experiences of mine and my friends, it may be less about "varying degrees of ADHD" and more about "varying degrees of coping mechanisms one have managed to develop through their life".
If you don't need to spend significant amounts of energy on daily basis to cope with your ADHD (successfully or not), do you have ADHD at all?
Certainly an interesting question. I was told by two people that have it that I do, and by a psychologist that i clearly don't. But I do know that I have symptoms. So the question is rather spot on. Unless you "you don't need to spend significant amounts of energy" do you actually have it? Can it be that the symptoms are caused by something else?
And that brings me back to my initial poorly worded comment. Whereby my worry is that some may be too happy to prescribe medication where its no needed, as opposed to focusing on removing the factors that cause so many people to have symptoms of various traits that they don't actually enjoy. I am just worried that we rely too much on sedating folks just to numb them as a first resort simply because our work patterns and habbits are toxic to varying degrees overall.
One important thing to note is that before you do your research, you have no idea how much the effort you need to spend compares to anyone else. For most of my life I was pretty sure that everyone's mind worked like mine.
Also, it's hard enough to get ADHD meds even if you genuinely need them to function that I'm not worried about people ending up overmedicated at all. I'd rather see meds becoming easier to obtain, since people who actually need them suffer from the obstacles meant to stop people who don't the most.
This is great! Vyvanse/Elvanse is very expensive and i have to get the prescription specially approved everytime.
Let's hope the generics are as good as the real thing.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadThat'll work greeeeat.
Then again if I remember correctly, Vyvanse isn't something you can get a continual high from like traditional amphetamines. : I may be completely mis-renembering that.
Contrary to popular belief, giving stimulants significantly reduces the risks of addiction, alcoholism, substance abuse, etc.
You have to treat people, otherwise they try to get their dopamine sonewhere else. Whether that's binge eating, or worse.
Your point is very interesting though. It sounds pretty obvious but I never thought about this this way. I am going to look some proofs up and steal this for future arguments.
That said, the nonstimulant ADHD meds all have worse side effects and can't be discontinued without tapering.
Vyvanse does, but it's not a problem, just take a magnesium supplement if it happens.
Natto is a good source of vitamin K though, if you want stronger bones.
Heck, I've had more problems weaning myself off of diclofenac.
Sure, when I stop I feel kinda crappy... But... I'm not on a stimulant that I had been on. I'm just not as 'up'. Not as focused. Etc. Never any actual withdrawals or cravings for either though. Gets very tiring how many people that probably never have regularly used either like to pull out their megaphones and yell about how they are addictive.
Why don't we worry about ultra processed foods, high sugar intake... Things like that that are actually a problem for a LOT of people? People focus on the oddest things.
For those that aren't already addicted to something, say those with adhd, I wonder to what extent their environment is causing the issues that they seek to solve with a stimulant.
I don't think this is caused by my environment. Feeling like you are unable to think a clear thought is not because clear thoughts conform with modern society's ideas of a highly productive an obedient individual. For me it's simply a feeling of not being a whole human. Medication addresses this to a very significant degree, although it's by no means a complete fix.
I also use glasses, and I find similarities there. Without them my eyesight is blurry and I cannot see things beyond a very short distance. Are glasses simply producing normative behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual? Is it really the environment that is causing me to think of bad eyesight as an issue to be addressed? Obviously not; being able to see clearly is something you want regardless of environment. I think that the same applies to being able to think clearly.
Everyone I knew in uni was on Adderall XR and some people overdid it, like making these crazy manic posts on Facebook and staying cracked out for days on a train of big redoses. There are real risks.
And because of that, any time I go to a new doctor, I have to deal with them side eyeing me as I try to prove to them I’m not just a pill seeking junkie even though I’ve been taking it for 15 years. It can be so dehumanizing, like I’m a child of a parent that goes to see if I really did clean my room like I said I did.
Thankfully a decade later and I'm in the latter, typically don't take my full dose so I always have some left come next refill.
So you can abuse it the same way. It just lasts longer.
The continual high you can get on a large dose is the same, just less peaky.
> Giving an addictive stimulant to food addicts
Yeah, amphetamine has so many effects beyond appetite suppression that it’s a pretty blunt instrument for that. GLP1 agonists like Ozempic seem far more promising since they don’t have the ability to crack you out.
Hate sitting at a desk, been diagnosed, and not into sales.
Not trying to be combative, would love suggestions. I partly want to go bar-tend or be a plumber, but the wage isn’t there.
I should have gone into medicine, but it’s too late for that at this stage.
Spent a summer working in a blue collar fashion for a small company. It was fun-ish, but the owner was at a desk all day.
Wage is still a step back and I’m nearing the age cut-off, so would have to jump on it pretty soon.
ADHD means "I don't choose what I focus on", which poses some management challenges, but in an environment where there's always a lot of various interesting tasks to choose from and a team of people where others can take care of things you end up neglecting because your focus has changed, one can still thrive sitting behind a desk. In fact, my ADHD barely ever takes me away from my desk (unless making it too cluttered to sit there and moving with a laptop to a couch counts).
Maintaining your health, house and relationships is not as easy though.
I certainly had ADHD before being exposed to work environments. I've had my entire life. But it wasn't until I got my diagnosis, and started taking medication for it, that my square-peg of an existence began to fit in with the round-hole of reality.
Work environments have nothing to do with it for me. In fact, I love my job. Here, my ADHD is something of a benefit. I've excelled at everything I have found enjoyable, and have no qualms with working insane crunch on the stuff I like.
The key word there being like. If I don't like doing it, it's practically impossible for me to do. Or rather, if it's mundane or otherwise just "not interesting", I struggle. Strangely enough, I have an easier time accomplishing things I actively dislike doing. Not sure why.
It's like my body is controlled by an autopilot gone rogue, and the medication helps me override it.
For example, I have trouble going to the bathroom to take a piss. Not because of any phobia or anything. I just cant. Literally. I'll sit and squirm until I'm about to piss myself, and only then will I go to the bathroom. Been doing that since I was a little kid.
One way around it is to trick myself somehow, like by putting on a podcast, even though I'll only hear like 20 seconds of it. Couldn't do that as a kid, tho. Back then, I would wait until it became physically painful, because only then would my rogue autopilot allow me to go piss.
Doing laundry? Impossible. Vacuuming? No. Washing dishes? Well, now I have a dishwasher, but emptying it? No way.
That is, unless I take my medication (methylphenidate). It doesn't make mundane things any less mundane. It's still boring to brush my teeth and piss. It just makes it possible.
I didn't get my diagnosis until I was 28. My entire life I've been struggling with this. It's a primary factor in my lifelong battle with depression. It's lead me down a path of substance abuse — alcohol and cocaine in particular.
Despite all of this, I still second-guess myself on whether I truly have ADHD. What if I'm just a drug addict, and I just tricked a psychiatrist into giving me those sweet sweet drugs?
If you don't need to spend significant amounts of energy on daily basis to cope with your ADHD (successfully or not), do you have ADHD at all?
Certainly an interesting question. I was told by two people that have it that I do, and by a psychologist that i clearly don't. But I do know that I have symptoms. So the question is rather spot on. Unless you "you don't need to spend significant amounts of energy" do you actually have it? Can it be that the symptoms are caused by something else?
And that brings me back to my initial poorly worded comment. Whereby my worry is that some may be too happy to prescribe medication where its no needed, as opposed to focusing on removing the factors that cause so many people to have symptoms of various traits that they don't actually enjoy. I am just worried that we rely too much on sedating folks just to numb them as a first resort simply because our work patterns and habbits are toxic to varying degrees overall.
Also, it's hard enough to get ADHD meds even if you genuinely need them to function that I'm not worried about people ending up overmedicated at all. I'd rather see meds becoming easier to obtain, since people who actually need them suffer from the obstacles meant to stop people who don't the most.